View Full Version : PvP debate - Shield Overcasting
Heyheyhey,
I was curious enough to get some opinions from the forum. You may have played this game recently and have noticed that people are using overcasting to take enemy PPU down, which is a fast and effective way to deal damage to a PPU. I was wondering, from a KK point of view as well, if that tactic was created on purpose, as the more PPU skill you have (and less resist chip) your shield may instantly overcast the other's PPU shield (with a good tweaked setup you might recast white/red instantly, which makes it easier to kill PPU who are continuously clipping)
Now everybody has been dropping the ball about whether it is allowed or not.
(It looks like a legit tactic to me, as the more PPU you have, the better overcasting works). It also makes APU more effective on the field against other PPU who may be clipping.
N
to me it's a legitimate tactic to get PPU's down as long as it's not exploited (so the other ppu should be able to notice that he's being overcast), seeing as it's one of the few ways a good ppu can be taken down
I'm confused. I was under the impression that it wasn't possible to replace self-cast shields, unless the foreign cast one was better...
As described though, it sounds concerning, as it sounds like it is uncounterable and also encourages excess PPUs, which is generally thought to be a bad thing.
I'm confused. I was under the impression that it wasn't possible to replace self-cast shields, unless the foreign cast one was better...
As described though, it sounds concerning, as it sounds like it is uncounterable and also encourages excess PPUs, which is generally thought to be a bad thing.
At some ponit, overcasting will work directly if you use a full PPU implants setup, with red/white (not blue though). It actually makes thing easier, I'm the only PPU nowadays in Outpost Fights.
Can you clarify what this is and how it works?
For the record, I can't imagine there is anything against the rules in this - the old fashioned "noob buffing" was unintended by the system, but never considered an exploit. As said though, I'm very uncomfortable with anything that's uncounterable (as this sounds) or that forces everybody into a very specific setup (max dmg% on shields)
For the record, I can't imagine there is anything against the rules in this - the old fashioned "noob buffing" was unintended by the system, but never considered an exploit. As said though, I'm very uncomfortable with anything that's uncounterable (as this sounds) or that forces everybody into a very specific setup (max dmg% on shields)
Any PPU can recast his shield immediately after an overcast. Whatever the setup, self-cast stays prior on this. This direct/instant overcasting has been in Neocron the whole time, I noticed a few years back then when I had plenty of PPU skill I would be able to recast my red shield over and over again, and with drugs I could do the same with the white shield. I eventually turned my setup into non-drug recasting. Direct recasting is a setup I made, you can overcast someone with any setup, but it may not be instant (2-3 recast before the PPU actually takes heavy damages)
By Tweaking my setup into max shield% I'm weakening myself (or not? since shields protect me better) but I get no resist chip nor do I get the advantage of being faster without PA/harder to hit.
EDIT: I do not believe this would be against the rules, It's like it has been put there on purpose, recasting is an advantage for you as well (you get protect all the time for either red or white type damage if you keep recasting as your shield refresh after each recast). Some people believe otherwise and have refused to fight me or my clan for that very reason.
(funny fact: the guy saying this died from a full anti-buff as he did not recast his blue shield agaisnt two dizzy, so it has nothing to do with the overcasting :p :D )
My guess is, that KK fucked up making shit-buffs overcastable to the point that we can now overcast other PPU's shields with our own, wich are of course weaker when foreign cast.
They won t label it an exploit though since they know they couldn t enforce it anyway.
OK, sooo
If you have a higher dmg% on a shield than any character, you can can overwrite their self-cast with a foreign cast?
However a fresh self-cast would override any existing foreign cast? (I think that one was brought in for other reasons a while ago)
Anyway, sounds like it's an error in the way that the "best buff" is chosen. KK being a bit lazy is at fault.
If you have a higher dmg% on a shield than any character, you can can overwrite their self-cast with a foreign cast?
Not shure about that, i have pretty little ppu on my PPU and i never notice an overcast to fail.
However a fresh self-cast would override any existing foreign cast? (I think that one was brought in for other reasons a while ago)
Yes.
I think it s not intended to be like this, too.
I suppose it all comes down to whether KK wanted self cast holy shields to be over-ridden by foreign cast holy shields. I would venture a guess of no, seeing as how that doesn't really make much sense, unless it was intentionally designed to be a sort of sneaky half debuff. The only way you can tell if you've been overcast by foreign shields is if you actually see the PPU casting it on you, there's no debuff sound or any change in the buff icon on your screen. You will all of a sudden be taking a ton more damage seemingly fully buffed. So as to whether it's an exploit or not depends on what KK says which probably wont be anything unfortunately.
Yeah I had this used against me already...didn't even see it coming to be honest. Re-casted on me and almost dropped me immediately. Its back to the noob buffing days really, and I think its more of an exploit than anything.
The system was adjusted so you could not cast a shield over somebody that was of lower quality, and this is what its doing. It is replacing your shield with a foreign cast shield because the system thinks it is higher quality when really its not.
The system forgets to check if the shield is self casted or foreign casted before checking for quality. It probably follows a formula such as...
if (casted.protection(quality) > current.protection(quality)) apply.casted.protection
when really it needs to check this way to pass everything..
if (casted.protection(quality) > current.protection(quality)) {
if ((self.player(ppu) == yes) && (casted.protection(source) != self)) { ignore }
else { apply.casted.protection }
}
That formula checks if the player is a ppu and if the cast came from themselves. Obviously the foreign cast will not be better, so we nullify it all together.
That formula also allows the ppu to self buff better buffs if hit with a noob buff first, just like the system was supposed to do.
We assume that no other class can achieve better buffs than a ppu, so if the buffed player is not a ppu and the quality is higher, it just applies.
So yes, its a way around the system. PPU's are already squishy creatures, now they are pretty much worthless. What is the point of anti buff now?
Doc Holliday
03-05-11, 09:28
shitbuffing mark 2. LOL. fun times. i honestly thought this had gone away when the overcast had been introduced. It reared its ugly head again then huh.
If balance was right ( :wtf: ) then the ppu wouldnt be godlike and would die to a reasonable force without the need for shitty tactics. personally i would like to see a time where that happens. thats all im gonna say as i dont have my tinfoil hat with me.
it's been used for years in the simple form of having your damagedealers do enough damage to weaken the shields, then being able to overcast (the new foreign shield being "better" than the selfcast shield), but becoming a foreign buff.
without overcasting, a ppu would be invincible unless you have 5 dissies with perfect aim that can shoot through clipping... opwars would be unwinnable because a ppu could pretty much rezz with impunity...
the only way to take down a good ppu is by overcasting.... remember that an overcast is easily countered by a new buff, so then it becomes a duel between the two ppu's, which one can keep the buffs on long enough. and imho 2 ppu's vs 1 ppu should always win... without overcasting you wudnt be able to
I really don't get why this is perceived as such a shitty tactic... all it does is give the ppu the same resistance as other ppu buffed fighters, but it's immediately visible if ur watching for it, it's immediately counterable by recasting ur shields (which you should be doing anyway to counter shield degredation), and it's only effective if the opposing team is dead or almost dead, cuz the overcasting ppu is just as vulnerable due to psi loss.
it's been used for years in the simple form of having your damagedealers do enough damage to weaken the shields, then being able to overcast (the new foreign shield being "better" than the selfcast shield), but becoming a foreign buff.
without overcasting, a ppu would be invincible unless you have 5 dissies with perfect aim that can shoot through clipping... opwars would be unwinnable because a ppu could pretty much rezz with impunity...
the only way to take down a good ppu is by overcasting.... remember that an overcast is easily countered by a new buff, so then it becomes a duel between the two ppu's, which one can keep the buffs on long enough. and imho 2 ppu's vs 1 ppu should always win... without overcasting you wudnt be able to
I really don't get why this is perceived as such a shitty tactic... all it does is give the ppu the same resistance as other ppu buffed fighters, but it's immediately visible if ur watching for it, it's immediately counterable by recasting ur shields (which you should be doing anyway to counter shield degredation), and it's only effective if the opposing team is dead or almost dead, cuz the overcasting ppu is just as vulnerable due to psi loss.
Biglines: You seem to have forgotten about antibuffs. A rezzing PPU has no hope if he's spotted, because he can just get antibuffed. He then has to break the rez to reshield or die straight away - and if his attackers are using a mix of weapons, with 3 shields to cast these days it can be pretty hard still. Same applies to lone PPUs left at the end - they are going to get a constant stream of antibuffs dumped on them. So I can't say I agree with you about necessity at all.
There are also some very, very good reasons why PPUs aren't as vulnerable as their fighters.
The old way to take down a PPU in NC2.1 (ie before the big balancing patch) was.
1. The APU had to cast the Holy-debuff on the PPU. (Not sure that is the right name of the weapon, and also it was a APU weapon)
2. Once the PPU was de-buffed, someone would quickly cast noob shelter and deflector. (Usually a PE or a PPU) But often a noob heal was all that was needed.
3. Everyone shoots the PPU dead.
In NC1 to 2.1 The PPU had no chance to fully re-buff himself with his own stronger holy self-buffs, since it wasn't possible to override this. You either had to escape to the underground, and get a APU on your side to de-buff you.
Also some clans out there were so good and quick at this tactic, you often didn't know it had happen until you was dead. Whether this was by genuine skill, or by hacks, I don't know.
NC 2.2 The Game has changed... (Unlike in Tron, the graphics haven't!)
1. The PPU had to cast the Holy-unprotector on the PPU.
2. Once the PPU was de-buffed, someone would quickly cast noob protector, and deflector.
3. If the PPU is awake, he will usually spot this, and re-cast his shields.
4. Everyone then tries to shoots the PPU dead.
Now what it shouldn't be possible to do is for someone to overcast their own shields over you whether strength/quality they are over your own shields, which does sound like what's happening here.
And yes, it's a shitty tactic. Isn't this a game supposed to be where you show off your l33t PvP skills, not your n00b-buffing skills?
The old way to take down a PPU in NC2.1 (ie before the big balancing patch) was.
1. The APU had to cast the Holy-debuff on the PPU. (Not sure that is the right name of the weapon, and also it was a APU weapon)
2. Once the PPU was de-buffed, someone would quickly cast noob shelter and deflector. (Usually a PE or a PPU) But often a noob heal was all that was needed.
3. Everyone shoots the PPU dead.
Noob healing didn't really need any antibuffing especially as HAB didn't remove shields. Noob heal was just something that could be thrown on when people had a chance - remember that heals only lasted 15 seconds. The big problem with this technique was that if performed properly, it was uncounterable. The enemy PPU could start casting the level 25 shelter before the APU had finished with the HAB. The targeted PPU would only have less than a second to see that their shields had gone before being hit with a lower level shield. Even if they noticed straight away and started rebuffing, it would be too late.
1. The PPU had to cast the Holy-unprotector on the PPU.
2. Once the PPU was de-buffed, someone would quickly cast noob protector, and deflector.
3. If the PPU is awake, he will usually spot this, and re-cast his shields.
4. Everyone then tries to shoots the PPU dead.
Honestly, unless the enemy PPU was both colourblind and playing in 1st person, there's not much point in the noob buffs in 2.2 - all you are doing is giving the target PPU a bit more protection while they get their buffs up. However, with 3 shields, all of which can degrade and a holy heal which isn't as powerful as the old one, being hit by unprotector with a bunch of enemies on you places in a difficult situation already.
Biglines: You seem to have forgotten about antibuffs. A rezzing PPU has no hope if he's spotted, because he can just get antibuffed. He then has to break the rez to reshield or die straight away - and if his attackers are using a mix of weapons, with 3 shields to cast these days it can be pretty hard still. Same applies to lone PPUs left at the end - they are going to get a constant stream of antibuffs dumped on them. So I can't say I agree with you about necessity at all.
There are also some very, very good reasons why PPUs aren't as vulnerable as their fighters.
true, but an antibuff takes about 80% of ur psipool, and is easily countered if u have 2-3 ppus rezzing at the same time
so true, its not a necessity, but i've never seen antibuff work against a good ppu, recasting simply costs way less psi pool than antibuffing. I don't think ive ever been killed by antibuffs, only by overcasting, extreme focus or sandwiches.
plus, the rezz fail circle is actually quite large, making clipping while rezzing a viable option in some cases, plus most rezzes are done in hiding (using teamplay to lure the fight away from the rezzes)
the point is, it's put especially in the game, otherwise a foreign shield wouldn't be able to overcast a self-shield, as foreign shields are always weaker. it gives a new option to take down enemy ppus, and it's counterable b y planning and skill on the part of the ppu
the point is, it's put especially in the game, otherwise a foreign shield wouldn't be able to overcast a self-shield, as foreign shields are always weaker.
Nope. It's in the game because of a programming screwup. It's there so that foreign-cast holy can overwrite a PE or Spy's weaker self-cast shields.
And yeah, teamwork is used to ensure rezzing goes ahead. It's also used to prevent rezzes - shield degradation means that spending ~30 seconds taking continuous fire from just 2 good-damage fighters is a pretty shifty proposition even without debuffs, damage boost etc. I really don't see the necessity. (I would however, like to see PPUs made a bit less effective. We were close to right at the start of 2.2, but they got buffed again to the point where 1:1 fighter:PPU ratios are alarmingly favourable.)
antibuff is so easy to counter, it takes ages to cast, it makes a clear sound when cast, it's pretty much useless in the game.
granted it's possible it's a screwup, it's neocron after all, but it sure is a lot more fun than ppu's being nigh invincible because of the uselessness of antibuffs (only if 3 ppus are antibuffing one ppu does it have any chance of being succesful)
Biglines asumes a "good" PPU is one that clips so much that it's indeed really hard to kill him. But not all clans/PPUs use this tactic, since they consider it an exploit or at least "lame" too.
If a PPU doesn't clip excessively, a good team with normal anti buff is always enough to kill him.
Alas i know the people who are using it now won't stop using it or seeing it as the "shitty tactic" it is, since they've stubbornly held onto clipping as a "legit pvp skill".
Biglines asumes a "good" PPU is one that clips so much that it's indeed really hard to kill him. But not all clans/PPUs use this tactic, since they consider it an exploit or at least "lame" too.
If a PPU doesn't clip excessively, a good team with normal anti buff is always enough to kill him.
Alas i know the people who are using it now won't stop using it or seeing it as the "shitty tactic" it is, since they've stubbornly held onto clipping as a "legit pvp skill".
lol, good to see you are capable of reading my mind, and know exactly what I'm assuming...
next time, just don't
I think ppu's that are good are the ones that can break focus, not the ones that clip, hell, lots of outposts don't even allow much clipping, except maybe around the UG. normal antibuff is not enough, the moment u get antibuffed, u put up blue again instantly (since u can easily time antibuff), or white/red depending on what the damagedealers are using (and yes, most proper clans synchronize damage colour so their ppu's can overcast or antibuff that specific damage type). An antibuffed ppu is vulnerable for about half a second. Hell, I take far more damage from an antiheal than an antibuff...
I hate how all this seems to come down to e-peen talk... I'm not even close to the really good ppu's on terra these days, but I rarely clip on my ppu (unless I'm the last alive or fighting sandwiches), but I know for a fact that when I go down, I go down to anti-heal and overcast, not to antibuff. antibuff is simply too easy to counter (unless of course you have 3 ppus antibuffing u, but anything goes down to 3 ppus antibuffing)
John Doe has written this in the english Forum as the Balancing Discussion about PPUS/APUS started...
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2036255&postcount=38
...and in the German Forum this:
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2036278&postcount=42
I think that there is a mistake in the translation. According to the english text i would say that shitbuffs were allowed because they say that it is possible to cast a bigger shield on a runner. So they know that it works. And if this becomes a problem they would fix it.
In the german forum he wrote: Sollte wirklich ein neues ShitBuff-Problem entstehen, weil ein besseres Shield über ein bestehendes, selbstgecastetes angewendet wird, um den Selfcast-Bonus auszuhebeln, werden wir das umgehend beheben.
I think the better Translation for that is:
If a new Shitbuff-Problem should exist because a better shield is applied over an existing selfcast shield, to overturn the Selfcast-Bonus, we will look into it to resolve this problem.
This text can be interpreted in different ways.
Thanatos wrote this in the diskussion for the PSI categorie:
Concerning the functionality of shields (and heals): A better shield replaces a weaker one – this ensures that runners can not be put at a disadvantage by weaker support (by their opponents, „Shitbuffing“).
So the originial idea was to prevent the shitbuffing. But somehow the statements are contradictory.
but wasnt the problem with shitbuffing that you were stuck with the shitty buff till it ran out? overcast can simply be countered by another selfcast
I think we need a statement from a dev who say if it is allowed to overcast shields or not. That's the best way to clear this.
This is clearly not an intended part of the system. If anything, this needs to be fixed, and the rest of the system needs some overhauling. Using this as a makeshift solution is just broken.
how is this "clearly" not intended? the devs say that they know this was the result, they patched it that way, and only if it was a problem they would see about fixing it.. it not even close to a problem, hell, it's an added way of playing, another strategy, that is neither overpowered nor unwelcome, just another dimension to varied play... if you want something fixed, fix the netcode so people can't clip so badly anymore, add a proper network encryption, add proper anticheat, and make pe's, hybrids and melee more viable (and adding methods to make viable setups with other guns)
how is this "clearly" not intended? the devs say that they know this was the result, they patched it that way, and only if it was a problem they would see about fixing it.. it not even close to a problem, hell, it's an added way of playing, another strategy, that is neither overpowered nor unwelcome, just another dimension to varied play... if you want something fixed, fix the netcode so people can't clip so badly anymore, add a proper network encryption, add proper anticheat, and make pe's, hybrids and melee more viable (and adding methods to make viable setups with other guns)
http://www.withoutatraceroute.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/facepalm.jpg
Biglines asumes a "good" PPU is one that clips so much that it's indeed really hard to kill him. But not all clans/PPUs use this tactic, since they consider it an exploit or at least "lame" too.
You have PLAYED neocron right? Even the people that say they don't clip do infact clip, due partly to the fact that I can scratch my balls and will be cliping my hand through my leg and partly because moving at all around or near any object causes you to clip wether you realize it or not. The only way to not clip in this game is to only ever walk in a straight line...wait no, then you'll be cliping through the ground whenever a pebble in your path...and you certainly can't go anywhere near the hackterm if you don't want to be a 'lame sploiter noob'. I can't count the number of times I've seen people whine about cliping wile in the process of doing it themselves that very moment.
SO.. for everyones benefit, lets just not bring it up again. mmmkay
and a bit more on topic, anti-buffing isn't effective against even a 'decent' ppu outside of a rez unless you have atleast 2 ppu's doing it in conjuntion. Even then you need a good number of fighters with decent aim. There are ofcourse the bad ppu's, we know who they are, that get taken out usally at the start of an op fight because there just so horribly braindead. lol like one of the ppu's from that tg clan last year, if nobody was attacking him he wouldn't even notice being anti-buffed. "hey guys, just real quick shoot this moron that doesn't rebuff himself...ok good job, back to whoever you were killing."
and really, if the ppu is the target of all the fighters he's going to be recasting his shields very often anyway and unless you have 2 or 3 ppu's droping an anti with a couple seconds of eachother..you really have little to no chance of getting a kill. I, for example, am NOT an uber ppu but 1 ppu randomly droping anti's on me is going to have a zero chance of seeing me die...unless I'm alone and I get bored of saying "lol noobs l2aim" and just give up before they do. I wrecked all my armor one time at tyron, they gave up trying to kill me after an hour cause they only had 1 ppu to anti/shitbuff. though granted tyron is a horrible op for random ground clippage. aahhhh..good times.
[IMGhttp://www.withoutatraceroute.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/facepalm.jpg/IMG]
so, when you can't actually make sense verbally, u bring up troll pics, yay
so, when you can't actually make sense verbally, u bring up troll pics, yay
ur a troll pic!
zing
ur a troll pic!
zing
which is why i dont post any pictures of myself ;)
I'm wondering if some peep's including myself forgot something there for a sec.
First things "quality" to me is defined as Damage+Frequency+Range+Handling/4. If you got 120%, that's a perfect item.
You can make Holy protection, Absorber and Deflector up to 99% from blueprints. To get them close to 120% quality, you need quite a few slots and some ultimas.
Then there is the rare versions of the PPU spells. Without slots, you can build them to close to 120%. Add a few slots, the item can be 120% quality without too much difficulty.
If the code is based on what MrTrip suggested...then yeah this overcasting isn't right.
how is this "clearly" not intended? the devs say that they know this was the result, they patched it that way, and only if it was a problem they would see about fixing it.. it not even close to a problem, hell, it's an added way of playing, another strategy, that is neither overpowered nor unwelcome, just another dimension to varied play... if you want something fixed, fix the netcode so people can't clip so badly anymore, add a proper network encryption, add proper anticheat, and make pe's, hybrids and melee more viable (and adding methods to make viable setups with other guns)
If anything, this overcasting is just a lame, overpowered replacement for debuff. It fulfills the same role, but instead of removing buffs, it quietly replaces them with crappy ones, so the only way to notice it is by noticing the damage taken. Why should some half-baked exploit be allowed to replace it's legitimate counterpart? Just because the legit one isn't good enough?
I'm wondering if some peep's including myself forgot something there for a sec.
First things "quality" to me is defined as Damage+Frequency+Range+Handling/4. If you got 120%, that's a perfect item.
You can make Holy protection, Absorber and Deflector up to 99% from blueprints. To get them close to 120% quality, you need quite a few slots and some ultimas.
Then there is the rare versions of the PPU spells. Without slots, you can build them to close to 120%. Add a few slots, the item can be 120% quality without too much difficulty.
If the code is based on what MrTrip suggested...then yeah this overcasting isn't right.
There's more going into it then just the "quality" of the spell, which most people are running 120 damage on rare pad anyway. That's why neally mentioned running a lot of ppu going for max damage as without it the sheild needs to be damaged to overcast.
So yes, its a way around the system. PPU's are already squishy creatures, now they are pretty much worthless. What is the point of anti buff now?
Yes, it's a way around the system. Intented? Probably not. An exploit? They haven't said it is yet.
No, APU's are squishy. PPU's are not, due ofcourse to sheilds. With the old shit buffing system you were fucked, with overcasting you're only fucked if you don't pay attention.
No, PPU's are not worthless. No offence but that's probably silliest thing I've seen in this thread.
Yes there is a point to anti-buffing as overcasting only effects PPU's. Tanks, spys, and I guess APU's (if you actually see one) can only be anti-buffed as overcasting would do nothing.
edit:
If anything, this overcasting is just a lame, overpowered replacement for debuff. It fulfills the same role, but instead of removing buffs, it quietly replaces them with crappy ones, so the only way to notice it is by noticing the damage taken. Why should some half-baked exploit be allowed to replace it's legitimate counterpart? Just because the legit one isn't good enough?
No, you actually see the sheild being cast on you...Unless you don't notice those sort of things which tbh is more of your problem. In fact there is a slight difference in the animations between the sheild just being cast on you and the sheild actually casting over your own.
And why should some half-baked exploit be allowed to replace it's legitimate counterpart? Just because the legit one isn't good enough? Weeeeell it's hasn't been confirmed to be an exploit after being in game for years now and I think you answered your own question at the end. Why do people use it, "because the legit one isn't good enough". And that's the way people work, with 2 options people that want to win will use the one that works better.
OH, and one more thing. Hey Flib, is that supposed to be you in your avatar/sig? Cause if it is, you got some chubby cheeks son! :lol:
so the only way to notice it is by noticing the damage taken. so you actually have no idea what we're talking about?
god, people seem to compare this overcasting to the shitbuffing... shitbuffing from what I hear, made ppu's "squishy", it has absolutely nothing to do with what happens now, except that yes, there are foreign shields involved....
overcasting, in the absolutely worst case scenario: when a ppu is absolutely not paying attention AT ALL, is that he gets just as much damage as any other player thats actually ppu buffed with the very best foreign shields possible! in the game, this means u still can run around for at least half a minute if every single shot hits, and ur actually stupid enough not to notice that ur taking that much damage
in any normal situation: the ppu receiving overcast notices the overcast due to the animation (hell, I play first person ppu and even I notice it, in 3rd person it's glaringly obvious), simply recasts and is perfectly ok till the next one. The only way this works is if there's a very good focus on one ppu, and overcasting will slowly make some of the damage do more than against normal shields, this is a cumulative effect over a longer time, which makes it a skill based thing on whether or not you can get down a ppu.
I don't know if you guys who are complaining (who I've never seen in opwars in the last few years), have ever seen a current antibuff duel? it means that when you've killed every single fighter in the opwar, you have to spend like half an hour hunting down that one ppu thats constantly recasting, and since antibuff takes 80% of the psi pool, the only way to actually make a difference is if that ppu is rezzing... the only way to take down a ppu with antibuff is if that ppu makes such a glaring mistake as to stand still, or is on the telephone while rezzing...
if overcasting is an exploit and they remove it, they better make antibuff use about 60% less psi, and make the time it takes to cast about 30% of the current time. If not, take 4 ppus to an opfight and you have a fight from now til eternity
and brammers, if there's actually a ppu that's not using fully capped rare shields (u only need 1 slot on a monk spell to get it fully capped, psi ultima is the only ultima that does +19% over all 4 the stats including damage), they should be easy to kill anyway, why else bother getting rare shields?
and brammers, if there's actually a ppu that's not using fully capped rare shields (u only need 1 slot on a monk spell to get it fully capped, psi ultima is the only ultima that does +19% over all 4 the stats including damage), they should be easy to kill anyway, why else bother getting rare shields?
You not reading the posts properly again. I was talking overall "quality". And to refer to your point of just using an Ultima, there is a 2% difference between 120% and 118%. That's significant if quality does come into the overcast problem.
Anway, I'm more likely to fit an ultima to a rare time. A "Artifact Ultimated Holy Protector" sounds way cooler than a "Artifact Enhanced Enhanced Enhanced Enhanced Ultimated Holy Protector"
Doc Holliday
04-05-11, 14:33
you know i did actually have one idea. ditch shields and scale heals to be more effective and then we have no issues of antibuffing or shit buffing. have 1 shield in the game that protects everything and takes an amount of damage then falls off. have it so it cannot be recast for a certain period.
hey presto. no more shitbuff/antibuff what ever. even if u keep a heal up on someone if the other team can aim they can strip away the health before the heal can really help. Added to which ppus can have extra slots in belts.
Beef up the rez speed too. i liked it in the old days. :)
you know i did actually have one idea. ditch shields and scale heals to be more effective and then we have no issues of antibuffing or shit buffing. have 1 shield in the game that protects everything and takes an amount of damage then falls off. have it so it cannot be recast for a certain period.
hey presto. no more shitbuff/antibuff what ever. even if u keep a heal up on someone if the other team can aim they can strip away the health before the heal can really help. Added to which ppus can have extra slots in belts.
Beef up the rez speed too. i liked it in the old days. :)
uhm, the complexity of damage types is one of the best points of neocron, unless I'm missing sarcasm again I don't think it's a good idea to remove the different shield types
You not reading the posts properly again. I was talking overall "quality". And to refer to your point of just using an Ultima, there is a 2% difference between 120% and 118%. That's significant if quality does come into the overcast problem.
Anway, I'm more likely to fit an ultima to a rare time. A "Artifact Ultimated Holy Protector" sounds way cooler than a "Artifact Enhanced Enhanced Enhanced Enhanced Ultimated Holy Protector"
actually I was refering to rares, which unless you're a really bad constructor never come below 101%, so my comment (which referred to rares) was actually quite correct, note also my comment about non-rare shields being by definition weaker, and as such should be worse anyway (regardless of mods or "quality")
I do not however get the point of the "enhanced enhanced enhanced" thingy, why would you want to add a shitload of mods + an ultima?
you know i did actually have one idea. ditch shields and scale heals to be more effective and then we have no issues of antibuffing or shit buffing. have 1 shield in the game that protects everything and takes an amount of damage then falls off. have it so it cannot be recast for a certain period.
hey presto. no more shitbuff/antibuff what ever. even if u keep a heal up on someone if the other team can aim they can strip away the health before the heal can really help. Added to which ppus can have extra slots in belts.
Beef up the rez speed too. i liked it in the old days. :)
Well if you did have your simple idea implemented, you would have to speed up the rez speed! I reckon, there would be a lot more deaths at op-wars so you need a PPU to keep bringing back the dead.
I'm sure everyone would happily want to spend more time fighting, rather than lying on the ground waiting for the rezz to complete.
And yeah, the PPU's quickbelt is a logistical nightmare, I'm in favour of less spells to loose or swap around. :)
really? the only things I ever swap in my belts are the specific weapon boosts, I usually even have slots which I hardly use. thats the good thing about realizing antibuff is useless, it frees up slots ;)
No, you actually see the sheild being cast on you...Unless you don't notice those sort of things which tbh is more of your problem. In fact there is a slight difference in the animations between the sheild just being cast on you and the sheild actually casting over your own.Even if you can see the shield effect of it being cast on you, there might be a good chance you won't be able to see it because the spinning shield effect from being shot overrides it. (?)
Weeeeell it's hasn't been confirmed to be an exploit after being in game for years now and I think you answered your own question at the end.They wouldn't purposely implement it as something that makes antibuff obsolete, which is what it does, or at least I would hope.
Why do people use it, "because the legit one isn't good enough". And that's the way people work, with 2 options people that want to win will use the one that works better.I do understand that people can and will use any kind of game mechanic that will give them the advantage (or keep them on equal footing with the others), but that's not what we're discussing.
We're discussing whether it should be okay, which I don't think it should. Like I said, it's just an overpowered replacement for antibuff that messes up the already broken balancing and puts even more burden on the over-tooled PPU.
so you actually have no idea what we're talking about?Well, as you may have read in this thread, I only know what I've read.
god, people seem to compare this overcasting to the shitbuffing... shitbuffing from what I hear, made ppu's "squishy", it has absolutely nothing to do with what happens now, except that yes, there are foreign shields involved....It's a very similar thing. The only difference from what I can tell is that it's harder to notice, and the buffs aren't quite as shitty, but still enough so to make it more easy to kill the PPU.
overcasting, in the absolutely worst case scenario: when a ppu is absolutely not paying attention AT ALL, is that he gets just as much damage as any other player thats actually ppu buffed with the very best foreign shields possible! in the game, this means u still can run around for at least half a minute if every single shot hits, and ur actually stupid enough not to notice that ur taking that much damage
in any normal situation: the ppu receiving overcast notices the overcast due to the animation (hell, I play first person ppu and even I notice it, in 3rd person it's glaringly obvious), simply recasts and is perfectly ok till the next one. The only way this works is if there's a very good focus on one ppu, and overcasting will slowly make some of the damage do more than against normal shields, this is a cumulative effect over a longer time, which makes it a skill based thing on whether or not you can get down a ppu.If it only helps that little, then I guess it's not really as big of an issue as it's been made out to be.
Does the being shot animation override the cast animation?
I don't know if you guys who are complaining (who I've never seen in opwars in the last few years), have ever seen a current antibuff duel? it means that when you've killed every single fighter in the opwar, you have to spend like half an hour hunting down that one ppu thats constantly recasting, and since antibuff takes 80% of the psi pool, the only way to actually make a difference is if that ppu is rezzing... the only way to take down a ppu with antibuff is if that ppu makes such a glaring mistake as to stand still, or is on the telephone while rezzing...
if overcasting is an exploit and they remove it, they better make antibuff use about 60% less psi, and make the time it takes to cast about 30% of the current time. If not, take 4 ppus to an opfight and you have a fight from now til eternityI don't disagree that antibuff might need some work.
Even if you can see the shield effect of it being cast on you, there might be a good chance you won't be able to see it because the spinning shield effect from being shot overrides it. (?)
There's a fairly decent size difference between the spining bars from being shot and the animation of a sheild being casted on you. For example the round bar above the spining bars and the flashing effect.
They wouldn't purposely implement it as something that makes antibuff obsolete, which is what it does, or at least I would hope.
As I said in the post you quoted: Purposely implement, probably not. Considered an exploit, they haven't called it one in the last number of years people have been doing it. And finally, it doesn't make anti-buffing obsolete. over casting only works on ppu's. Fighters, which usally make up a good 2/3's of an op team, are still anti-buffed. (full anti-buff or just an anti-red/white/blue generally depends on what type of weapons your fighters are using.)
It's a very similar thing. The only difference from what I can tell is that it's harder to notice, and the buffs aren't quite as shitty, but still enough so to make it more easy to kill the PPU.
There is a BIG difference as a holy buff is still far better then a low lvl buff, and the low level buff you were stuck with for minutes where as now you can recast your own a second after your overcasted.
Having had both used against me in the past, I can tell you the difference is like night and day.
k, to conclude:
It's not an exploit, as it has been very often discussed and gms don't see it as an exploit
it's very clearly visible (damage is rotating animation, overcast is vertical animation)
it is completely different from shitbuffing, since it leaves you with still very effective shields, just worse than the near-invincible selfcast shields, which you can completely negate by just recasting your own shields again immediately
it requires skill to use and to counter, as such making it a far more interesting mechanism than the eternal wait to take down a ppu with antibuff
as genji said, antibuffing is still effective on fighters, since they can't cast their own shields
tbh, I've never heard anyone complain about this mechanism in actual opwars, except from the ppu's that didn't know it was possible
Doc Holliday
05-05-11, 08:22
@ Big. No i was being very serious. it wasnt sarcasm at all. i agree the damage types are great allowing multiple different choices but people spec resists/armour to cover that anyway.
@Brammers. i did say speed up the rez. :) the old nc1 ones where it was like 4-5 seconds? I remember people talking about Polarity from pluto how he could rez people underfire and get em rebuffed in no time when opwarring back then. I dont know how fast but i remember people saying it was VERY fast and memory recalls it being alot quicker than the 30 seconds or what ever it is now.
no
long fights are fun, but fights that cant end because rezing is easy and fast are not.
@Brammers. i did say speed up the rez. :) the old nc1 ones where it was like 4-5 seconds? I remember people talking about Polarity from pluto how he could rez people underfire and get em rebuffed in no time when opwarring back then. I dont know how fast but i remember people saying it was VERY fast and memory recalls it being alot quicker than the 30 seconds or what ever it is now.
Indeed. My monk was rezzing people in about 5-6 seconds.
@Brammers. i did say speed up the rez. :) the old nc1 ones where it was like 4-5 seconds? I remember people talking about Polarity from pluto how he could rez people underfire and get em rebuffed in no time when opwarring back then. I dont know how fast but i remember people saying it was VERY fast and memory recalls it being alot quicker than the 30 seconds or what ever it is now.
Yes it was very fast. I remember spending hours trying to construct 4-5 slots rez's for the PPU's as they needed to be modded so they could rezz someone before the heal ran out!
Yes it was very fast. I remember spending hours trying to construct 4-5 slots rez's for the PPU's as they needed to be modded so they could rezz someone before the heal ran out!
I was able to rez, heal and buff a player almost before my heal ran out. It was quite insane, but very helpful.
Now rezzing people will be impossible. Especially with the shitty heals we have now.
I was able to rez, heal and buff a player almost before my heal ran out. It was quite insane, but very helpful.
Now rezzing people will be impossible. Especially with the shitty heals we have now.
Insane, but more fun! :)
That's what I never understood about half of this community; half cry for fun-killing 'balance' whilst the other half (me included) argued that fun & options > balance.
Only good PPUs that knew what they were doing could pull that off back then... I remember lots trying and failing under a barrage of fire.
Doc Holliday
06-05-11, 12:57
crouching to heal to sustain the ticks. :) funny.
Mooning the rezzer to break his rez. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY More funny.
That's what I never understood about half of this community; half cry for fun-killing 'balance' whilst the other half (me included) argued that fun & options > balance.
I'm all for more fun than balance (else i wudnt have played my apu almost exclusively), but the problem with unbalanced options, is that it really only takes options away. Every single setup is still possible in the game, just so gimped noone uses them. you need an approximate balance in order to actually have fun options. Of course not everything has to be the same, and I prefer options over perfect balance, but there has to be a balance in order to have options.
I'm all for more fun than balance (else i wudnt have played my apu almost exclusively), but the problem with unbalanced options, is that it really only takes options away. Every single setup is still possible in the game, just so gimped noone uses them. you need an approximate balance in order to actually have fun options. Of course not everything has to be the same, and I prefer options over perfect balance, but there has to be a balance in order to have options.
What the f#@&! ?
not well explained?
- I would like lots and lots of setups to be available, and I don't mind if they are not completely balanced (as in, are the best u can do in most situations)
- but in order to make those choices/setups available, they have to at least be balanced, as in, viable
so it's not possible to get lots of setups without balancing
there, better?
Insane, but more fun! :)
That's what I never understood about half of this community; half cry for fun-killing 'balance' whilst the other half (me included) argued that fun & options > balance.
The funny thing is: When most people talk about fun & options they're talking about things like being able to play there libby/pain easer PE or some HC/MC PE or some other 'not the norm' setup and not get shit stomped by the "insert current powerful class of the current patch"-o-cron. Which is in fact called balence.
The funny thing is: When most people talk about fun & options they're talking about things like being able to play there libby/pain easer PE or some HC/MC PE or some other 'not the norm' setup and not get shit stomped by the "insert current powerful class of the current patch"-o-cron. Which is in fact called balence.
This man knows what he's talking about. Take note kids.
Seriously though, you're absolutely right. I'm not talking about anything extreme here; I'm saying I miss the fact that using a Pain Easer and not wearing PA, coupled with having skill could still win you fights against whatever was the current most powerful class.
I know a lot of people disagree with me, but I thought NC was way more balanced back in the days of vast viable options. So what, great hybrids were a little overpowered... but many of us underdogs still beat them from time to time.
And my god were hybrids fun to play! :)
but I thought NC was way more balanced back in the days of vast viable options. So what, great hybrids were a little overpowered...
how many setups were viable then?
In the current game I can name 3 pe setups, 5 spy setups, more tank setups than I can count, 1 apu setup (sorta, it's viable in duels and with the right team in opfights, but most would say it isn't).
remember that there have been almost 4 years now that the game hasn't changed, and a few years before that which didn't change much. of course the best possible setups have been found and refined by now, and the good players have become so occasionally good at their respective setups that someone who only plays occasionaly, and with the not-so-overpowered setup will always lose to those that have too much time to play.
From the people that are actually still actively playing, I only hear that the current game is actually the most balanced in history. The only thing is that a lot of the once popular setups are no longer very viable. But this is mostly a preference thing, as people are nostalgic for their particular setup they had so much fun with, which is no longer viable. this doesn't mean the game is unbalanced, it means the game has changed.
aside from the sandwiches, opwars are still incredibly fun, and can take hours if the teams are evenly skilled, or incredibly short with the right tactics. Of course I have only played beta4, and the 4 years of this last patch, but I have spoken a lot with people, and those that still play regularly, never complain about balance, only those people that used to play setups that are now no longer as overpowered as they used to be.
well biggie to be fair to his point you used to be able to make atleast a decent setup with almost any gun, now if you don't have one of the few best setups a dissy is gonna burn you down pretty fast.
If I was to balence this game I would drop the damage on dissy and ak a bit and increase the damage on a large number of other guns a bit. Because that's the real problem that pisses people off, how the dissy will take a large chunk of your hp in 1 mouse click wile a large number of the rares currently have there damage tuned so low you could drop a full clip in someones head and they'll lose 'some' hp.
I think that's the main thing (wether they realize it or not) that pisses people off about the "balence", the fact that they're cornholed into useing 1 of 2 or maybe 3 weapons that actually do any real amount of damage.
It's hard to compare the old system with the new one. The new one was suppose to be good on paper, but badly failed because resists doesn't make much sense.
I remember when some patch got released and the Paw of Bear was overpowered, as well as the Wyatt Earp pistol (yes, really, it was raping monks). The old system was pretty simple, weapons would cap at 178% damage, your speed would cap at around 75ATL/75AGL, thus leaving resists a big part of your setup.
The issue with that system is that it didn't leave much possibility on setups you could use, although back then every weapon was viable, instead of playing with the three Resist-Speed-Damage factors with your skills, you would have less resists but be using a better weapon (example, PE Termi going PE exec/slasher). The paradox being, this setup didn't offer as much variation than the current system in terms on skilling and specialization, but the system was working because one could use the weapon of his choice and be good with it, which is something we want here.
This is where we draw the line about Reakktor giving a fuck about their game. The new system was supposed to work, but this patch was never corrected properly, we are left with speed-damage setups using best weapons, and those who go for resists and lower weapons just end up fucked, because in the end their weapon won't deal enough damage, and their resists advantage won't count against a weapon like disruptor.
You could compare the new system this way, not so long ago I had fun using old pistols and be half-viable with them, but this is only because the more pistol combat you have, the more efficient your weapons are (260 P-C spy)
The old system was better, because much simple and more focussed on the implants/weapons.
edit: never mind, posted question before seeing neallys post, but it was answered
Doc Holliday
08-05-11, 20:07
the 23.425252 stats thing never made sense to me either. it was easier with the simple rounded values as to what equalled what.
the 23.425252 stats thing never made sense to me either. it was easier with the simple rounded values as to what equalled what.
This didnt make sense to me either. especially after returning and finding so many implants had changed. I mean, what the hell happened to the marines CPU? and the MOVEON? My tank was instantly rendered useless by all these changes, my monk was stuck (and still is) without getting my hands on a support cpu (my psi core cpu defaulted to the apu version). Luckily my DS did not suffer the same fate.
This along with the character models are the reasons I miss NC1 more than NC2.
as far as I can piece together the decimal system was meant to make setups more balanced and would allow for more variaty. The problem was that in order to do that, it would need to be balanced, and well... KK and actually finishing what they started...
I'm pretty sure it was because of the bonuses decreasing with durability. Without that, they really ought to just round all the values up.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.