what's the biggest balancing problem? [Archive]

Cromac

30-12-09, 23:38

In addition to all of the above, which i agree with, A List of problems and suggestions for fixing them:

Netcode - Obviously this isnt a problem that can be fixed easily, if at all, but putting a cap on the run speed would help this. Clipping has increased significantly since people started pumping hundreds of points into athletics, put a cap on it at a REASONABLE speed. Please dont over-nerf it.

APU's - APU's are currently considerably weaker than the other classes in PvP, and without a PPU you die insanely fast. This has always been the case, but i feel that a tad more survivability with a moderate damage increase could make APU's viable again. APU just doesnt do enough damage to warrant it's lack of speed and resistances. Furthermore, give the APU some utility back, such as the anti-buff, which i never think should have been moved to PPU's in the first place. This should make them viable for at least OP fights again.

Melee - Melee does no-where near enough damage and was over-nerfed. Simple one really, increase the damage output of melee specced tanks and PE's. Remove the negative athletics incurred when wearing Melee PA as well, like the old version.

Vila

30-12-09, 23:49

Clipping...stealth tool...

CMaster

31-12-09, 00:33

Lack of any consistent weapon balance is the problem. The point of balancing was to bring all weapons into some sort of line, that didn't happen.

Also, returning Tanks to their rightful place as gods of straight-up combat has left APUs without a good role. They need one - my suggestion is debuff class.

Finally, it's worth noting that PPUs are still too important. I know it's a hard line to tread but well - it's not quite right at the moment.

Also, my phrase was always "finish" balancing. KK began it by changing up a lot of systems and giving themselves some better levers to use. But they were never prepared to spend the time and effort to actually tweak all these things into line. Made worse of course by the numerous bugs out there that they seem unable to fix (beam weapons, damage bounce, too much armour = none at all, etc)

mdares

31-12-09, 03:00

Keeping in mind design plan behind APUs they are the glass cannon and their damage potential should reflect that, same as their squishiness...

However currently, while they are still glass, they are more like glass rifles than glass cannons... still can be deadly but no where near as deadly as glass cannons. I personnally feel the freq was hit a bit too hard; while yes the old 105/min was too high, i think 30some/min is much too low. A good balance point to start would be around 65-70/min.

Regarding PPUs, the diminishing shields and slightly lower heal i think were a step in the right direction. There's no way to remove the importance of ppus because frankly doing so would kill the class design (healer/buffer support that suck at its job isn't going to attract anyone).

Lastly, for the monk issue, if there is still outcry about increasing the freq of the spells, one thing we can consider then is to lower the hybrid malus by half. This is because if we're not going to give APUs their full fury back then allow some APUs to go hybrid so as to get some survivability back to compensate for their lack of "punch".

Just my 2nc

Ka0s^

31-12-09, 03:37

agree on whats been said about melee tanks, yer they were overpowered back in the day, but teh way KK dealt with it just sucks. Honestly since WoC i think the WHOLE weapon system needs to be looked at again for all classes, monks used to be fun to play especially hybrids, but rememember all the whining that went on in here? Same with melee and PE's currently thing is KK are too busy to care/do anything.

NC used to be about being different and having to constantly tweak your char. Not like today, roll a pe, stick 2million points into agil get WoC kill people in P2 rinse, repeat.

Id like to see test open again with dev attendance and PROPER guided testing like that used to happen. I spent many days with carb etc on test looking at dmg and resists, loads of other people did too.

Maybe now things are a bit brighter for KK we will see some change, but PLEASE kk prioritise your work, NETCODE, CLIPPING, CHEATERS and then work on balancing with the input of your community :D

zii

31-12-09, 18:00

Does nerfing run speed actually stop clipping? I have seen chaps walking and then start to clip.

extract

31-12-09, 20:23

mdares

01-01-10, 07:51

as far as apus are concerned they can do a shit ton of damage, and with no line of sight on beam weapons are even just as more powerful, Ive seen apus take on buffed tanks as they shoot and duck around a wall constantly

but where they are severly gimped is some jacked up joke in the whatever u call it code, programming, they have nerfed any chance of a con setup into inexistance

with more con than a spy, even a spy can have better con than an apu

with armors that give insanely good energy resists they still take more dmg than a spy with kevlar armor vs energy weps

there is CLEARLY something not right there

and im surprised noone has mentioned the disruptor in this thread or have i missed it

your point about the lack of con is why the APU damage should be increased to compensate. Their design to be glass cannons means they SHOULD have the worst con of all; however their damage potential is no where near justified by just how severely their lack of con is crippling. Hence why there are still those of us who believe APU damage needs a boost (either through direct increase of damage - which I dont think is a good path; or indirectly by increasing freq - which i think is the better path, as overall damage will still be sorta mediated by pool, number of misses if the guy isnt that great at aim, etc.)

Garfield

01-01-10, 23:23

actually just patch back to 2.1 (without the dome shite)

whoever decided to make 2.2............ GO HIDDE IN A CORNER !

Torg

02-01-10, 00:48

My balancing suggestion: Turn down the hitech- and WOC-bonus for tank, PE and spy guns. Just a little. This will bring the APU back, compared to other damage-dealers. And put up a speed cap. That should do.

Cromac

02-01-10, 01:52

actually just patch back to 2.1 (without the dome shite)

whoever decided to make 2.2............ GO HIDDE IN A CORNER !

True dat. I'm not a fan of the changes to implants especially, the quality of the item effecting the stats and the fact old staple implants such as the MOVEON and Marine cpu are now useless is just irritating.

I DO however agree with most of the PPU changes, i just dont think they ever needed antiheal/antibuff etc. Give it back to the APU.

2.2 Is just another typical example of KK and most other MMO companies making changes to things that didnt need changing in the first place and ignoring what the players ACTUALLY say needs changing.

This prophesized new patch could really redeem Neocron and get it back on the right tracks, all you need to do is PLEASE listen to the community and make changes accordingly, after all, people like me have been playing and loving the game through thick and thin since before we were able to grow facial hair. We know what needs to be done when it comes to balance and content.

CMaster

02-01-10, 14:19

actually just patch back to 2.1 (without the dome shite

You really don't want that.
2.1 was monk-o-cron. We'd beback to the ultimate fighting team being a big group of PPUs and APUs who can attack around corners and over walls. I'll stick with the APU being useless over tanks, spies and PEs being near-irrelevant in team-fights. Also blessed fucking hybrids.
It's not fair to say that KK didn't listen to the community with 2.2 either. The "balancing" focus of 2.2 was a direct response to community reaction. Giving APUs a reticle and LoS was a direct response to community complaints. Sure, they also did some slightly odd things (implant decimals, making armour locational with the result that we get less variety in armour setups).

Sure, they never finished balancing, leaving the vauge mess we have today. Sure, they managed to kill almost all variety in PE setups (HC and MC not viable, strength boosting for armour not viable, boosting Psi not viable (despite being viable at one point on the test server).

Also, as I've said before at length, I don't think APUs as glass cannons can ever work in a game like NC. Sure, it works in PvE only games where there are lots of ways of controlling mob aggro. I don't ever see it working in an actiony game like NC in a way that anyone finds fun or fair. I made one suggestion as to what to do with APUs. I dare say others can come up with additional ideas.

Torg

03-01-10, 13:08

all you need to do is PLEASE listen to the community...my humble self and a real lot of other people like 2.2. over the monk-o-cron that reigned before. i think 2.2. has its problems, but it is still better than any other situation we had in NC since i started playing it, which was around retail NC 1 in late 02.

MrTrip

03-01-10, 13:13

my humble self and a real lot of other people like 2.2. over the monk-o-cron that reigned before. i think 2.2. has its problems, but it is still better than any other situation we had in NC since i started playing it, which was around retail NC 1 in late 02.

Monks are worthless, they need to be brought back into the light, and then NC will be balanced. Where every class is played and enjoyed. Right now you see only one or two APU's out there, and they don't even make it far. This is wrong. Very very wrong.

Koshinn

03-01-10, 13:48

You really don't want that.
2.1 was monk-o-cron. We'd beback to the ultimate fighting team being a big group of PPUs and APUs who can attack around corners and over walls. I'll stick with the APU being useless over tanks, spies and PEs being near-irrelevant in team-fights. Also blessed fucking hybrids.
It's not fair to say that KK didn't listen to the community with 2.2 either. The "balancing" focus of 2.2 was a direct response to community reaction. Giving APUs a reticle and LoS was a direct response to community complaints. Sure, they also did some slightly odd things (implant decimals, making armour locational with the result that we get less variety in armour setups).

APU-biased hybrids were better than blessed hybrids and even pure APUs in basically every situation. What they need is 2.1 without the PPU skill. Yeah, remove the PPU class.

CMaster

03-01-10, 14:09

APU-biased hybrids were better than blessed hybrids and even pure APUs in basically every situation. What they need is 2.1 without the PPU skill. Yeah, remove the PPU class.

Yeah, fuck any kind of team support. Let's rename it Neocron 3:Arena while we're at it...

APU hybrids were more fun. They weren't as near-enough unkillable (by small groups) as Blesseds were.

Koshinn

03-01-10, 18:10

Yeah, fuck any kind of team support. Let's rename it Neocron 3:Arena while we're at it...

APU hybrids were more fun. They weren't as near-enough unkillable (by small groups) as Blesseds were.

A purely team support class I don't believe exists in any game except Neocron. If not removing PPUs, make their support a lot worse, but still better than self buffs, and give them a little offense. But let another player kill a PPU 1v1 given enough time and skill.

And true, blesseds were better against non-supported characters, but apu hybrids could kill blesseds with ease. and apu hybrids could kill ppus. and they were better when they had a ppu with them. and with a proper setup could still beat any other class 1v1.

Biglines

03-01-10, 18:38

A purely team support class I don't believe exists in any game except Neocron. If not removing PPUs, make their support a lot worse, but still better than self buffs, and give them a little offense. But let another player kill a PPU 1v1 given enough time and skill.

And true, blesseds were better against non-supported characters, but apu hybrids could kill blesseds with ease. and apu hybrids could kill ppus. and they were better when they had a ppu with them. and with a proper setup could still beat any other class 1v1.
pure team support classes exist in many games, including knight online, any game with cleric classes, etc.

your saying that you want apu hybrids to be able to beat any other class, but not want a ppu that needs 2 people to kill but cannot kill anyone by itself... a ppu that cannot kill people shouldn't be able to die easily 1on1, what the hell use would that be... it is possible to kill a ppu easily enough unless it's zonewhoring/clipping, and no offense, but nothing in neocron should be optimized for zonewhoring/clipping

it seems to me your just a ganker, not a social gamer that likes playing in teams or actually cooperating with other people. the only people that would benefit from having a weaker ppu is cheaters, because then they can kill everyone and feel good about themselves, what other use is killing a ppu

Koshinn

03-01-10, 21:02

pure team support classes exist in many games, including knight online, any game with cleric classes, etc.

Never heard of knight online. Every game I've seen with cleric classes can use those characters in offense. The archetypal cleric in D&D is part healer, part melee that is especially useful against undead.

your saying that you want apu hybrids to be able to beat any other class, but not want a ppu that needs 2 people to kill but cannot kill anyone by itself... a ppu that cannot kill people shouldn't be able to die easily 1on1, what the hell use would that be... it is possible to kill a ppu easily enough unless it's zonewhoring/clipping, and no offense, but nothing in neocron should be optimized for zonewhoring/clipping

What? No, we were reminiscing about old times. And the only people who use your logic seem to be KK. Look at WoW for example, the biggest and most popular MMO. Besides Druids (which were seriously OP for a while), healers were not tanks as well... healers were squishy, more so than any other class except the glass canon rogues. Yes, in most games, the support classes die the EASIEST, not the most difficult.

it seems to me your just a ganker, not a social gamer that likes playing in teams or actually cooperating with other people. the only people that would benefit from having a weaker ppu is cheaters, because then they can kill everyone and feel good about themselves, what other use is killing a ppu
Strawman and extremely flawed logic. I've played NC as every class since 2002, but took a break from the beginning of 2.2 until now. I've been a primary healer in WoW for large raiding guilds since 2004 until mid-2009 and did so in PVP arenas as well. I play support classes in pretty much every game I play, like ET and P&P RPGs. Oh, and I'm an Officer in the United States Air Force. At risk of misrepresenting you, I'd say I have far more experience with teamwork than you do.

zii

03-01-10, 22:38

... Turn down the hitech- and WOC-bonus for tank...
Which T-C & WOC bonues for tank? There are none, & I do not have a problem with this.

Hell-demon

04-01-10, 00:31

Ban all noobs from Neocron.
KK start making money.
Neocron becomes GOTY all years.

solved

unreal

04-01-10, 01:10

[ edited]

Everything about Neocrons "balanced" PvP (as well as higher level PvM - Genotoxic mobs do meaningless damage until you're standing next to them, at which point they do instagib-like damage) revolves around PPU buttplugging. Weapons were either totally gimped (such as my beloved Executioner), stayed roughly the same, or as is the case with the usual group of PvP weapons, more powerful. I can agree with some of the balancing decisions, to make the classes more like their defined storyline roles, but it simply transferred the overpowered class from being Monks to HC Tanks/Rifle (Disruptor) Spies, a point that's even more blunt when they're combined with the ever so common exploiters.

I believe Koshinn isn't far wrong by wanting the PPU class removed. One major step forward in balancing IMO is to weaken the support PPU's are able to give, either to themselves, or to others, combined with balancing the things we know to be hugely overpowering. Why weaken PPUs you say? It bridges the divide. I often prefer to solo myself, because I know I can rely on myself, and partly because I no longer play Neocron long enough to stay in a clan. It's about 2 or 3 years after the fact that I removed one of my characters from TFC. :p

However, I say what I've said about PPUs with an unbiased open mind. It should be possible to do both, and people should have the ability and the confidence that they don't simply need to hug a PPU in order to win. According to Biglines, my view means I'm a ganker, but when you look at the facts, and how people in Neocron play, the truth is that it's the complete opposite.

Most people still "PvPing" in the game when they're fighting at say Plaza 2, and lose, simply switch characters to something that's more overpowered. They got owned 2vs1, so they switch to a Tank and come with another Tank, both of which will be buffed by a PPU who is sat camped at the stairs on the other side of the zone line.

Instead of people wanting to have a good fight, it's a scurry to see who can kill someone the fastest, with the most overpowered weapon they can, and many of those use exploits to make sure they don't lose again. Again one part of the reason for this is that nobody leaves their zone line, and the PPU isn't far from it. It's terribly dull.

People need learn to die in Neocron like the old days, instead of trying to cheat to gain twice the unfair advantage. If people don't get rezzed after their attempt to whore back into Plaza 1 from Plaza 2, because someone was shooting the PPU to stop it from happening, they sit around crying. You dropped a cheap item, with rare exceptions, which you'll pick up in a few minutes if it's something worth picking up, and only wrecked some condition on your implants.

You have reppers available almost whenever you need them, and replacements can be obtained just as easily, whether it's a noob heal tool, an implant, or a pair of boots. Surely you can afford it, having millions of credits and a big stash of rares? Why not venture away from your zone lines? The last "precious" thing I lost was my beloved 5 slot nailgun before balancing. I had fatal'd exiting MB sector 1, and Gunnar spanked me. I still have the same cabinet today containing 6 5slots, a few 4slots, and the rest are 3slots. I'm sure everyone else who constructs a bunch of weapons does the same, either in a personal apartment or dumping them in the clan app.

Exploiting is certainly one of the biggest balancing problems you face, but there's more to balancing than just damage and resists.

Economic balance (something I'm giving much thought into the MMORPG I'm working on) seems to be something Reakktor don't care about. WoC disks started dropping like candy, all previous hard earned WoC weapons were made useless at balancing because the quests were all tweaked to give artifact weapons instead, and for some bizarre reason, implants were added to the tech part pool. People have so much cash, that many things become hugely overvalued.

Player balance (ie, The percentage of new players, levelling players, people who are fully capped). Both of those affect tradeskilling and the general feeling of the game. Many people can't be arsed helping out newbies and giving proper advice, and that's their choice, but as the saying goes, the noobs of today are the high level chars of tomorrow (+ the time it takes to reach WoC :p).

Recycling is worthless, Researching is worthless, Constructing is worthless, Repairing is worthless (but not for one lucky person who I tend to pay 300k a time :D), Poking is less than average, but I find most people who have millions turn up for TL115's and tip <= 5k. People who already have so much simply don't want to pay more than pennies for a service because they usually get it done free by a clanmate or by dual logging.

PS. WoC Melee Chainsaw FTW. :cool: I'm and eager to find out how much of this post will be left standing. [Nid's edit - about half, I'd say.]

Torg

04-01-10, 01:31

Which T-C & WOC bonues for tank? There are none, & I do not have a problem with this.
weapon damage is calculated from weapon quality and TL. and bonus.
from patch 162 notes:

bonus-System for weapons:
- HighTech 2.0 Percent (additive)
- Rare 7.5 Percent (exclusive)
- Epic 8.0 Percent (exclusive)
- WoC 8.0 Percent (exclusive)
so there's room for adjustments.

zii

04-01-10, 01:53

But there you go, I've said it.

ilst removed by zii ;)

I had no idea that this was really happening, until someone mentioned it to me this evening. I simply thought that people were fully buffed and popping 8 drugs ago. Hmm.

Regarding newbie help. There are often characters poking, and I was only helping a new character out earlier this evening, along with others. I do not think the lack of newbie help is completely correct. I remember one runner offering driving services around the wastelands last week.

Wweakening the ppu class: so long as the other characters can still perform. Weakening the self-buff spells, or reducing the length of activity of the self-buff would allow a ppu to be killed easier than afore, instead of us chasing him around an OP like fools. The PPU would still provide the same level of support of foreign casts.

nabbl

04-01-10, 12:33

very nice post unreal!

Glad to see that there is no difference at all between terra and mars :-P

People seem to lose their ability to right click after death and take the GR. They try to rezz their characters (most of the time without being able to do so, because the PPU is getting shot) and waiting more than 10 minutes for the rezz instead of taking the GR, which would be much faster. Or these Spies which dont like to skill anything on resists, but instead they have their ppu right after the zoneline for shields and buffs.

I miss the times, where you've met someone in PP3 occasionally and then just fought to see who is the better guy. There was no running away, no clipping, no safezone syncing. U died and then u flamed, or you came back to kill the bad guy.
That was the fun part. Of course you dropped an item, but it was a shelter or a deflector and nothing what was really worth to log an alt and save the belt...
Nowadays they have 8x Ionic pistol in their QB and when they die, th LE'd alt is just nearby to save the dropped Ionic pistol. (In the past you had just 25x Queen Flame Avalanche in you Inventory, but no Holo PA spy has it anymore because of the transport malus...)

Its not only a problem of balancing, it's also one of the overall sense of people.

Garfield

04-01-10, 14:11

yar Nabbl, Unreal thats just OLDSKOOL, we have to admit thats a dead style :( .

raise the stealth tool requs or lower the cloak-time (a lot) :D

uhm didnt notice a LED guy can take belts even if teamed well i dont do lame tacticts thats mby why.....

Torg

04-01-10, 15:09

In my own opinion, .... I'm and eager to find out how much of this post will be left standing.
Great post. I salute you, sir!

While i'm not perfectly sure to what extend KK will be able to fix cheating/exploiting, they will definitely not be able to fix human stupidity. As people will try to gain unfair advantage instead of playing fair, we are officially entitled to call them pussies. or losers. or worse.

besides that, there' still some balancing questions left.

Brammers

04-01-10, 16:56

Nowadays they have 8x Ionic pistol in their QB and when they die, th LE'd alt is just nearby to save the dropped Ionic pistol.

You sure? I thought LE'ed runners can't access belts.

unreal

04-01-10, 17:27

In my own opinion, .... I'm and eager to find out how much of this post will be left standing.Eugh, I knew there had to be a brainfart somewhere. And I'm* :p
I had no idea that this was really happening, until someone mentioned it to me this evening. I simply thought that people were fully buffed and popping 8 drugs ago. Hmm.No amount of drugging is going to make you fire your weapon 2-5 times faster or deal considerably higher damage than is defined for normal players.
Regarding newbie help. There are often characters poking, and I was only helping a new character out earlier this evening, along with others. I do not think the lack of newbie help is completely correct. I remember one runner offering driving services around the wastelands last week.You can always find pokers. You can find other types of tradeskillers eventually, but you usually have to wait a while. Of course, it's a slightly more pleasant story when it's a holiday like Christmas. Some people, me included, usually flock back to Neocron at these times, but the fact I stated remains the same the rest of the time.

As for newbie help, again, it mostly comes back to holidays. I've driven a couple of noobs around, and drove another old Neocron 1 player back to NC, and I usually respond to questions on HELP, as do people like Dribble Joy and a few others, help out noobs with weapons, researching or give them weaponparts to help give them a head start, but most aren't bothered.

They're capped, have everything they need, and because people pay very little for services, aren't inclined to switch characters and help out. That's their choice, and it's not like you can force people to do it, but preferring to sit around flaming people all day doesn't really make up for it. Most people are friendly, but constant ass talk (especially when someone stops a PPU from rezzing), often on the wrong channels, is damaging.

The very essence of community in Neocron has broken down over the years, albeit with few exceptions, and the language/country barrier doesn't help matters.
You sure? I thought LE'ed runners can't access belts.That's the point. People now use dual logged LE'd noob alts to do just that. As I mentioned though, they often don't take what's in the belt unless it's meaningful enough for them to do so (PA, secondary weapon, etc). :o

Nidhogg

04-01-10, 17:44

nabbl

04-01-10, 18:11

You sure? I thought LE'ed runners can't access belts.

Yeah.. should be so .. shouldn't it? :-P

Torg

04-01-10, 18:30

Yeah.. should be so .. shouldn't it? :-P
no. they're teamed, aren't they? so?

Biglines

04-01-10, 19:46

nope, le'd runners cant open any quickbelts, but it's usually a dual logged ppu that gets the belt ;)

Ka0s^

04-01-10, 23:59

I miss the times, where you've met someone in PP3 occasionally and then just fought to see who is the better guy. There was no running away, no clipping, no safezone syncing. U died and then u flamed, or you came back to kill the bad guy.

I miss this also too, but again all that happened was those that thought NC was "PvPing" on the zoneline of pp1 acted the same as the "PvPers" do now in p2. I think resetting the old Zone system would maybe take away the focus from zone whoring in p2. Its a gamble for newer players to go to see the smuggler for example in p2 as those there tend to just shoot on site, and yes you can always leave your LE in, but what if your wanting the brain slot, or maybe you want to PvP but dont want to do it over a zone line?

I go on about old NC too much probably but one thing that was right, back in the day, monk-a-cron or not, was that you could get with 40 of your clanmates, go hack an op and spark off territory wars that would last for days/weeks, when clans would work together to hold a factory or similar.

Ive seen the things that people are claiming, i got ganked at battledome by someone from a certain clan that took me from fully buffed to dead in less than one clip from an AK, it sounded like a chainsaw it was so rapid. Im glad Nid has given a pointer that cheating will be looked at, it kills online gaming and i hate seeing it in NC. Ive been playing since 2002 and im still shit at PvP i die alot more than i win, but then again the 3 chars i play are all approaching WoC and i prefer enjoying the game rather than a mad rush to be leet and zonewhore in p2.

PPU's have always been a funny point in NC and i honestly dont think there will ever be a way to make everyone happy, i reckon its a feature ;)

Cromac

05-01-10, 05:12

The reason why we have rules against discussing exploits on the forums is that no matter how many people you believe use them there are many more who don't. However, there will always be weak-willed people who, once they discover a cheat, can't resist. Therefore, the first line of defence against exploits is denying them the oxygen of publicity.

What I will say though is that one of (if not the main) focus of the upcoming patch will be to tackle cheating. And you can be sure that there will be a crackdown.

I'm going to edit the exploit posts now and I don't want to see any more. Fair warning. I'll re-open the thread when I'm done.

N

Very pleased to see that you've acknowledged and are working on a way to counter the problems rather than just denying their existence and punishing people for mentioning them.

Interesting post by unreal, i'm also sad that these days appear to be well and truly over, but i think the root of the problem lies in the game itself rather than the players. After all, as nidd said, most players cant resist once they find out about an exploit, and who can blame them? We can try to set an example by not exploiting one of the many errors in the game for self gain, but it will only take one person to start again and before you know it everyones doing it because everyone else is doing it. We can only hope that the next patch is a good stride in the direction of solving the exploiting, and judging by some of the recent GM posts i have every faith that it will. But it wont happen over night..

As for those in favour of completely removing PPU's, are you mad? To remove PPU's or change them profoundly would be to ruin the image of Neocron. However, i can understand peoples frustration with people using a dual logged PPU to buff their chars to gank across zone lines. This does ruin a lot of fun and make the act of zone fighting pointless. I cant really see any way out of this other than to make it so that PPU buffs dont work in any zone other than levelling dungeon's and OP zones. This would keep group PvP, ganking and solo fights etc outside of OP areas a lot more even and fun. After all, there's no real reason to need a PPU in any other zone than a dungeon or OP, and if you feel there is then it is probably just to compensate for your lack of ability.

Dr Phil

05-01-10, 06:20

Some of the most enjoyable fights do happen in pp3 indeed.. its too bad its so rare to run into anyone there though :(

Last time i got a good fight there, was on my PE, where i ganked some dude who was there to buy armor or something, and then 5mins after i was fighting 4-5 ppl + ppu - was hilarious :D

BTW unreal exec is still usable.. its not nearly as viable as many other pistols, but it can still kill people.. i usually do about 80dmg per shot with it, and it does have a fairly good freq.. have killed several people with it on my spy tbh..
It IS underpowered though, yes.. But that just makes it more fun to kill people with IMO.
I have a pain easer PE too, which is viable too.
Uh and i often use FL on my rifle spy.. <3 that weapon! :D

The underpowered weapons does require you to be better than your opponent though :p

And people saying that WoC is a balance problem... Open your damn eyes and take a look at a rifle that can kill most that arent a tank or PPU buffed in 2 shots... Yes im talking about the Dissy.. which is NOT WoC!
Or CS which also does huge amount of damage, if you can aim it (for some reason there's a lot of people that cant though.. :wtf: ).
Luckily CS needs some skill to use..

Brammers

05-01-10, 17:49

Hmm... been meaning to post my full thoughts on this for a few days now.

@Unreal - Excellent post, I did get to read it before it had to be edited.

The cheating - well I've been feed up of hearing about exploits and cheating for months now, and I'm glad to hear that's one of the main focus points for the patch.

I hope KK continue to close down on exploits and cheaters when the patch goes live, and when KK start charging for NC again, there will be no excuse for not patching or getting rid of the cheaters in the future.

Balancing - I hope APU's get a look at again. Sure they are meant to be Glass Cannon's but at the monent they are just Glass but not a Cannon. In other words, the damage needs a little boost or the frequency of their casts needs increasing. (Also please add some WoC spells for monks!)

MC Tanks - well I've got a capped one that has been gathering dust since 2.2 since it doesn't do hardly any damage to players. Although I suspect this is more of a netcode issue than a balance issue.

PPU's ok if you remove PPU's, what do you replace them with? I seem to remember in 2.2 balancing, there was proposal for a 3rd monk class that could use the anitbuff spells only... or something like that. However the whole monk issue is one big issue that needs a lot of thinking about.

Dr Phil

05-01-10, 22:39

MC Tanks - well I've got a capped one that has been gathering dust since 2.2 since it doesn't do hardly any damage to players. Although I suspect this is more of a netcode issue than a balance issue.
As it is at the moment, MC Tanks destroy noobs (with the right setup), since they can be crazy fast and pretty much unhittable.

Sadly my melee tank has been lommed to HC for leveling, since he needed a few STR levels and quite a lot of CON.
But when he was MC, i won about 90% of the duels i tried.
with about 260MC i did about 80dmg to most per hit with Tzusun or whatever that sword is called.
Against some tanks i did use 3 (yes, three!!!!) full stam boosters....

A few hints about melee tanks:

normal PA 1-4.....
loads of speed = 130+ atl and full agl...
you wont hurt a 0/2 char with less than 200MC
Move like a madman - Be drunk or drugged IRL while fighting, to make the dance even more unpredictable if you must!!
DO NOT BOTHER WITH RESISTOR IMPLANTS!!!!! Taking damage? Dance better mofo!
Have fun! :D

Melee is fun as hell, but not easy.. So if your not a decent pvp'er, dont even try :rolleyes:

Asurmen Spec Op

06-01-10, 06:49

OK, let me elaborate.

WoC has been poorly implemented. Rather than cater to all the classes it really only caters for two; the spy and private eye.

As a result we see the same setups and the same people using the stupidly overpowered weapons like the x-bow or the ak. The tank and monks haven't nearly got as many toys as these classes and as such there is a divide. WoC has really unbalanced things, there is no variety and there is no incentive to get it on a monk or tank.
Damn, I still love you.

Hell-demon

06-01-10, 12:35

You may kiss my hand if you like.

MrTrip

06-01-10, 18:00

You may kiss my hand if you like.

Three words.

Pretty Black PA

<3 WoC Monks.

Hell-demon

06-01-10, 18:12

That means they are already dressed for their funeral :rolleyes:

Asurmen Spec Op

08-01-10, 11:42

They are black like their soul /wrists

Cromac

11-01-10, 17:50

Dr Phil

11-01-10, 20:43

I've mentioned it already but after being attacked by 2 spies in PP3 on my tank i'm going to re-iterate - IMPLEMENT A RUN SPEED CAP.

The fact that everybody is pumping millions of points into agi and ath has meant that unskilled noob idiots who cant aim can get away with being "Good PvPers" because they can just run around like lunatics, but struggle to hit me at all. I managed to kill one after about 5 minutes of his stupid dance and ofcourse the other managed to get me down. I'm not saying that i should be able to beat 2 spies while solo on my tank, but the whole fight was pretty un-enjoyable.

Not to mention this negates the fact people have to work out a decent CON set up, and few people wear PA ruins different aspects in the game.
Im kind of unsure about the whole runspeed cap. I know theres quite a few that would like a runspeed cap again, but just as many there dont want it.
IF they would put it in again, it has to be pretty high..

I know that I would get bored very fast, if people was slow - THAT removes skill.

No runspeed cap = more possible setups tbh.
So far i have used an all out damage setup on my tank, all out speed setup, and latest a resist setup.
Same on my spies, which a are pretty balanced between damage, speed and resists.

High speed is fun, but there will always be some people that still can aim you, even with 140+ ATL/180+ AGL.

Only bad thing about the insane speed that some people has (and i have on several characters), is that I cant aim people with dev for shit - its currently a 100% anti monk weapon for me :lol:

PS: Its not possible to "go for a" good pvp'er, if you dont hit people..
To be good, you have to be able to "dance" AND aim..

Mighty Max

11-01-10, 21:01

The problem is with it's sideeffects rather then the speed.

Cromac

12-01-10, 19:10

"No runspeed cap = more possible setups" Is the biggest load of bull i've ever heard. Everyone seems to specc ath to keep up with eachother. At the moment, if you dont exploit in PvP you are at a massive disadvantage to those who do. I could specc a standard setup, sticking to the old method and just having moderate speed and good CON. This would result in me failing to keep up with other players while they clipped and dived around the map and eventually being worn down anyway, making my entire setup pointless.

Fast run speed is not fun, it just serves to make noobs feel like they're good fighters because they cant die because they just run off at 1000mph when things start to go wrong. It exacerbates the problems of clipping and encourages players to avoid death at any cost by means of exploiting.

I can imagine it would also act to disencourage noobs to play. Imagine starting out as somebody who doesnt play many games like neocron or FPS games and having little ability to aim. As soon as they are PvP able they will be repeatedly killed in PvP while failing to get a single shot off on players running about at the speed of sound. What. Fun.

I seem to remember plenty of spies and PE's pre 2.2 who specced a bit more speed and did well as a result, this was the way it should have been.

Mighty Max

12-01-10, 20:58

This would result in me failing to keep up with other players while they clipped and dived around the map and eventually being worn down anyway, making my entire setup pointless.

Would you really neet to compete with these?
If fighting with clipping in mind is no fun, why would you do it?

Nah. It's all your choice.

Ka0s^

12-01-10, 21:55

Im with cromac on this. So far my PvP since coming back has happened 2 ways. Either GR killed on my tank by mysterious chainsaw sounding AKs (dead in half a clip, and YES my tank still has its old CON setup not speed) Or ive had the unfortuate experience of running into p2 to visit the Smuggler when i was shot at by an unhittable tank because i couldnt physically turn my char quick enough to get a decent shot with my CS (yes i can aim it properly).

Theres so many people now speccing speed, exploiting, that if you like PvP as has been said you either do the same or dont bother. Best of all is that these superspeed types most of them have shit setups and couldnt win if they didnt spend half there time between clips.

Peoples setups used to be a secret, it gave you an edge in PvP obviously but a good allround setup was important for clan fighting.. My tank currently has a good balance of resists speed and health, it is dependent on switching armour in and out though. Im proud of my setup and it doesnt need every drug or speed to be viable PvE or PvP. Yes im slow but i dont die easy (unless its someone from a certain clan with a certain AK) this is how i know people are cheating still.

Put the cap back on runspeed and lets go back to depending on skill rather than a silly dance.

Dr Phil

12-01-10, 22:12

Of course being SLOW is a bad thing, but you dont have to be lightning fast to have a chance.. Since i changed my setup to have good resists instead of the 140 ATL i had before (im now at 100 ATL when drugged), and i dont think ive lost a duel so far..
GOOD pvp'ers can hit the speed specced chars, and can avoid getting hit themselves even with lower speed specced.

About the newbs, yea thats a problem, but its hard to be a newb in all skillbased MMOs. THATS what NF is for ;)

@ Ka0s^
Setups still makes a major difference tbh.

Uh and i can kill pretty much all unbuffed tanks without ever having to reload on my AK spy. If you can aim a AK, it does massive damage.
To be honest i havent seen a "hacked" AK since mother'id-blablabla whatever his name was, got banned.

EDIT:

I honestly dont get why you people think that more speed = less skill...
Its harder to aim someone whos very fast = it require more skill to kill him.

As i said, a GOOD pvp'er can hit people even if they are lightning fast (maybe not land 100% shots on the fastest, but still). so there a character made for high speed is at a disadvantage.

Kinda sounds like you guys want to stand still, in front of each other and let the setup decide whos the winner :p

Ka0s^

12-01-10, 22:56

people are pumping huge amounts of speed into there build to the point the game is clipping, this is why people are hard to hit. I dont deny that some people can deal with the higher speeds but its hardly balanced if you can run so fast a persons chance to hit you is massively reduced. Ive been playing since 2002 and sure people specced a bit more speed in the past, usually melee tank builds, but it wasnt to the extremes you see now.

Im not suggesting stand toe to toe and let resists and armor win a fight im talking about the balancing for everyone. I know the AK does crazy damage this one sounds like a chainsaw and it was 2 bursts and i was dead, didnt seem right to me, others have had similar encounters too.

Agreed the clipping is down to the code of the game, but thats been mentioned too earlier in the thread. PvP still worked fine without massive agl/ath setups and we spent most of our time bitching bout hybrids and MC5 drops didnt we?

:D

Dr Phil

12-01-10, 23:07

Nah i never bitched about hybrids, they was the most fun opponents before 2.2 IMO.
Before 2.2 the only thing i bitched about was para..
I like when its fast paced, like it is now.. IMO it cant possibly go too fast.

I do hate people that goes into "clipping mode" when they are close to death though, but that was possible before they removed the speed cap too (mainly in the wastes, in hills and such though). But speed doesent need to be used for clipping.. The only times i do any kinds of clipping, its to break line of sight, to use my heal or restock my QB with medkits and stamboosters. Sadly there is quite a few that goes into "clipping mode" and just run around and around something, with theire body being inside whatever they run around, for 90% of the time.

This cannot be fixed without fixing the netcode or making a VERY slow runspeed cap though.

Cromac

12-01-10, 23:14

Sadly there is quite a few that goes into "clipping mode" and just run around and around something, with theire body being inside whatever they run around, for 90% of the time.

This cannot be fixed without fixing the netcode or making a VERY slow runspeed cap though.

This is exactly what I'm complaining about skill wise, although I see your point completely about running fast requiring a faster aim this issue has become far worse to the point I can't stand PvP alot of the time anymore which is why I'm asking for a cap. I don't want to see people running "slow" rather see people die when they get low on health rather than run around like a loon till they get a heal.

Dr Phil

13-01-10, 00:24

The problem with NC currently is that, even a walking player is moving fast enough to cause some hardcore clipping.
I dont know what KK did, but something completely destroyed the netcode :(

mdares

13-01-10, 01:45

maybe its just me but I dont ever remember any clipping issues back in NC1...

am I remembering incorrectly? If i'm not, then as Dr. phil mentioned, someone definitly messed up the netcode...

CMaster

13-01-10, 14:45

maybe its just me but I dont ever remember any clipping issues back in NC1...

am I remembering incorrectly? If i'm not, then as Dr. phil mentioned, someone definitly messed up the netcode...

No, you're right - if you watch NC1 vids, like the FANG ones, you see none of the issues we get these days with clipping. Someone from KK said at one point that the problem with that system though was it was far, far too vulnerable to hacking.

Dr Phil

13-01-10, 17:58

Yes im pretty sure it was because they did some anti-hacking stuff, that we have this bad clipping issues.
Hehe that was totally worth it, since its like totally impossible to hack NC now! :lol:

Biglines

13-01-10, 18:22

well the hacker problem is less than most people make it out to be (hell, even I got called a cheater once, I was very proud of that :D), and most people that are suspected of cheating aren't better than the proper pvp'ers (as in, I can beat some of them one on one), but it is one of the reason people are staying away, and a proper anti cheat initiative would help tremendously

then again, getting rid of clipping would also make the game a lot more enjoyable

Dribble Joy

13-01-10, 19:01

It could simply be that the clipping issue is due to a lower number of server machines running than there used to be. This would lower the server's 'refresh rate', manifesting as people moving from one spot to another in a straight line rather than the path they actually took.
Given the cost of running the servers (KK doesn't own them, or at least has to pay rent on where they are located), this seems quite probable given their revenue at current.

Cromac

13-01-10, 21:20

Biglines

13-01-10, 21:48

A good point, it'd be nice for someone from KK to give a comment on this so we know whether there is any chance of a fix or if it is a cost issue which currently couldn't be solved.
regretfully that would mean communication from KK, and we all know they are communicatively challenged (the devs that is, at least we occasionally get some info from the mods...)

Garfield

14-01-10, 02:30

patch canceld FREE farmville acc`s for all

extract

14-01-10, 14:15

Yes im pretty sure it was because they did some anti-hacking stuff, that we have this bad clipping issues.
Hehe that was totally worth it, since its like totally impossible to hack NC now! :lol:

thats freakin funny

Cromac

24-01-10, 17:11

P.S Fix the creed.

MrTrip

24-01-10, 23:57

patch canceld FREE farmville acc`s for all

:( can I bring my CS?

Apocalypsox

25-01-10, 00:03

:( can I bring my CS?

When are we both going to log in at the same time so I can give you back the one you gave me ages ago? o_O

Dr Phil

25-01-10, 02:01

P.S Fix the creed.
If laserbeam weapons (Creed and HL), got fixed - as in they wouldnt bug anymore, they would need a serious nerf..
Try shooting a stationary target with either of them, they will drop in seconds, its insane.

MrTrip

25-01-10, 05:51

When are we both going to log in at the same time so I can give you back the one you gave me ages ago? o_O

O_o Oh, thats where that went. I was always wondering. Uhhhh what time do you normally login? I'm barely ever on but I'll get on when you do (let me know your timezone)

Apocalypsox

26-01-10, 03:09

We'll have to work something out timewise. I'm on the pacific coast of the states, usually only log in on the weekends any more.

Cromac

26-01-10, 21:37

If laserbeam weapons (Creed and HL), got fixed - as in they wouldnt bug anymore, they would need a serious nerf..
Try shooting a stationary target with either of them, they will drop in seconds, its insane.

By saying fix i meant fix wholly, make it so you can hit people while they move and reduce the damage so that it's not so teeth shatteringly overpowered. I've got a 5 slot creed on my tank and would like very much to be able to use it.

[K1]Luke

31-01-10, 13:20

I don't really see APU's as too badly nerfed, if you can play it properly then they are decent. I know of 1 or 2 really good APU players and AD sometimes defend an OP with all APU's and PPU's for a laugh, we do well and it helps a lot with people who clip.. like Alarche! I've never seen anyone clip as much around Jeriko than him.

Melee definitely need a buff, I had a melee tank but had to LOM him to heavy so I could level faster, and with that being said mob damage needs to be nerfed a LOT. Melee tanks can't level much at all because of amount of damage a cyclops will deal to them, that's a big note for melee tanks.

WoC is decent. WoC3 tanks get great PA, Spies have their AK's, PE's have their AK's and armour. APU's and PPU's don't really get that much of a benefit but the armour is decent and worth getting if you play a monk intensively, but there definitely needs to be a few APU/PPU/Heavy/Melee WoC weapons to use.

Biglines

31-01-10, 13:30

Luke']AD sometimes defend an OP with all APU's and PPU's for a laugh, we do well and it helps a lot with people who clip
not meaning to be insulting, but the ones I see where apu's do well is only because ad outnumber every other clan by at least double, I've only once had an apu beat me in a 1on1 and I'm not that good at pvp

MrTrip

31-01-10, 13:35

not meaning to be insulting, but the ones I see where apu's do well is only because ad outnumber every other clan by at least double, I've only once had an apu beat me in a 1on1 and I'm not that good at pvp

I smash APUs. They are squishy.

extract

31-01-10, 14:52

Luke']I don't really see APU's as too badly nerfed, if you can play it properly then they are decent. I know of 1 or 2 really good APU players and AD sometimes defend an OP with all APU's and PPU's for a laugh, we do well and it helps a lot with people who clip..

I love the irony in this post

you say that apus arent nerfed too badly...and if you can play it properly they are decent

then u go on to comment how they are great against clippers

now while the no LOS is absolutely great vs clippers isnt the only way to properly play an apu to clip around while using that no LOS??????

if you have to use game mechanics to a point of exploiting or almost exploiting to be viable how can u even begin to say that they are ok?

you stick a non buff apu vs any class non buffed i dont care if its the best pvper on the server give them no walls to clip behind and they will lose everytime

they are fucked, nerfed, underpowered

they arent glass cannons, they are just glass...or ass smelly rotten useless ass

Dr Phil

31-01-10, 16:01

APUs can be very deadly - IF they exploit the netcode, yes.
I have won plenty of fights doing that on my APU, Prozac.

If you dont exploit the netcode with a APU, you are going to die, unless the people you fight suck badly (yes, i have won quite a few fights without clipping at all).

extract

31-01-10, 16:44

no i agree with you phil, APUs can be deadly. but heres the thing that gets me

when i want to fight, do massive damage, or just plain fuck shit up

I dont think about grabbing my apu, i think about grabbing my dissi spy

it should be apu or tank(id prolly grab my tank if i was a tad bit better with him) but regardless

there is just no way without the help of a ppu that an apu has any business being on a battlefield

in fact isnt it true dr phil the only time me or you play our apus is when were in p2 and decide ok its time for some fun cause were bored?

I want to look at my login screen which holds a rifle spy, hc tank, woc pc pe, and an apu and not think that i wasted a character slot....thats all nothing more

Dr Phil

31-01-10, 23:54

in fact isnt it true dr phil the only time me or you play our apus is when were in p2 and decide ok its time for some fun cause were bored?
Sadly yes, APUs are a "for fun" class, useless for anything but laughs :(

I want to look at my login screen which holds a rifle spy, hc tank, woc pc pe, and an apu and not think that i wasted a character slot....thats all nothing more
Feel the same way - rifle spy, HC tank, woc PE and my "dear" APU..
I just dont have the heart to delete him - and im too lazy to level a different character anyways. :p

Biglines

01-02-10, 00:09

I just dont have the heart to delete him - and im too lazy to level a different character anyways. :p
lom him to ppu :P

[K1]Luke

01-02-10, 01:03

Look at it this way, I can kill tanks on my APU unbuffed, if I can do that I think everyone else can as well. APU's are fine, could give them a little buff if you wanted but KK need to focus on Melee and Mob damage.

extract

01-02-10, 02:16

Luke']I can kill tanks on my APU unbuffed.

:lol:

wow so can I, hell some days i dont even take any damage I clip so good

or were you saying youve taken out tanks head on in open arena style circumstances?

nc1 or present day?

I call bullshit, Ill take that challenge(for the sake of research and stuff)

unless you are referring to some tanks who couldnt hit u even with aoe considering apu con is utterlly non-existent and no apu can take more than 3 cs bursts and live garunteed, 2 dev hits will take me to less than 50 health after stacks run....lets not even get into the other low tech weps

your arguements do not stand out to me, I dont want to sound like a dick but you make it sound like you play a different game or something or are just argueing for the sake of argueing

I have fought countless times on my apu vs all classes open area I just cant see it man, I cant get more than 3 shots of FA off before i get hit with 4 cs bursts and if we BOTH hit all our shots im dead, the tank is at half health

so theoretically you must be fighting the equivalent of a tradeskiller carrying a cannon, cause in a real world situation caught with a pvper who can actually fight, I dont care how good your aim is your apu's con cant handle it, its just not that possible to fight as an apu without clipping or buffs

in my experience and opinion

Dr Phil

01-02-10, 18:29

lom him to ppu :P
Already have one, and too lazy to get spells and shit for another :angel:

Luke']Look at it this way, I can kill tanks on my APU unbuffed, if I can do that I think everyone else can as well. APU's are fine, could give them a little buff if you wanted but KK need to focus on Melee and Mob damage.
By clipping, and exploiting the netcode, sure.. As i already said - thats easy..
But to play an APU without using the terrible bad netcode is just impossible (against people with any kinds of skill....).

With my tanks current setup, i take about 80 damage from a FA - maybe 120 with fully closed reticle - unbuffed.. And my CS will do about 250-300 damage on a APU, in just one burst..
My tank has 1200HLT... You do the math..

[K1]Luke

01-02-10, 19:48

I'm not sure what you guys have been doing but I did it against an AD tank when I first hit WoC. Everyone was in p2, between the two shops I had a fight with one of our members. I never clip, the only time I do is because other players use it extensively, and then I only use it until I gain a bit of health.

APU's are fine, every class has a counter so buffing them will just turn it back into NC1. Only thing that needs a proper look at is melee.

Dr Phil

03-02-10, 16:07

Luke']I'm not sure what you guys have been doing but I did it against an AD tank when I first hit WoC. Everyone was in p2, between the two shops I had a fight with one of our members. I never clip, the only time I do is because other players use it extensively, and then I only use it until I gain a bit of health.

APU's are fine, every class has a counter so buffing them will just turn it back into NC1. Only thing that needs a proper look at is melee.

...... Yea.... when i get back ingame, ill duel you..
And by the way; the fact that you say that APUs are balanced, when you have won against an AD tank, just made everything you said so far fail.
The only time AD tanks are dangerous is when they use theire Wocket launchers.. And they kill themselves when using that half of the time ;)

And dont get me wrong, i like several AD members, and was a member myself for quite some time, but AD has never really had any very good players.

VegaH

05-02-10, 16:22

Dr Phil

06-02-10, 16:35

I love my apu! XstrikerX ftw!....though yeah they still suck more than in 2.1 when you could play hybrids and have lot more fun.

Problem with apus is they should stack damage like they did before for poison and fire spells, and the frequency should be higher...if people will say that if the frequency goes up the damage will be too much:
- Then put the damage a little down, so a very good aiming apu will do more damage than right now from the faster frequency while a shit aiming apu will do less damage than right now because of the smaller damage per hit.
No matter how much i dislike Vegah, he know what he's talking about when it comes to APUs.
Think i have agreed on about everything Vegah has said about APUs so far.

Faster freq and stacking spells, would make APUs much, MUCH more fun to play.
And yea damage should be lowered a little bit, if the freq was made faster.

Well.. As i said, i agree with everything Vegah says about APUs.. :angel:

extract

07-02-10, 05:26

I still have to disagree with that as a fix-all for apus there is far more than just frequency and stacking issues that I personally consider wrong or broken with the "apu"

now bear in mind I was not around at all for 2.1 in fact I quit nc shortly after nc2 came out in 2005 and I came back around may of 2008 so you can imagine my dismay as far as apus are concerned

now in my own personal opinion here is what I would like to be considered for apus

first off give them back the anti-buff spells its stupid in my opinion that ppus get the spells but apus get at least the option of a shitty nanite tool that gives the person you antibuff like 2 minutes to not only realize that they have been antibuffed but a ticking timeline of when exactly its going to happen

give them back the frequency nc 1 style or dramatically increase their con abilities(not the lvl or the stats, but the fact that I can have armor that gives almost 200 energy resist, wear hvy energy belts but still take more damage than a spy wearing all kevlar just holo pa and less con in general while still doing more damage than an apu so I dont care what anyone says it is just plain fucking wrong, it makes no sense at all)

in my opinion the nc1 "apu" was perfect, the very definition of a glass cannon, incredibly high dmg yet still squishy by any means, but at least a formidable adversary(like all the other classes atm EXCEPT the apu)

but alas for the time being(hopefully) they are currently just a joke, and a bad one at that....

Aeon Blur

08-02-10, 01:29

For me (having only played since 2.0 or 2.1) the biggest balancing issue for me so far is:

PvE (Mobs need a nerf by least as aggressive a measure as the changes to classes implemented with 2.2)
Currently, even a nailgun-wielding sewer dweller has the ability to stand up to a full clip of shotgun shells to the face with better accuracy than a capped char waving anything less than full-arti rares.
Until mob balance reaches the same equilibrium as the classes attacking them, I fear efforts to complete the weapons balancing will fall short as far as PvE is concerned.

Classes incomplete (hc PE's/Psi Hybrid nerfs etc)
I applaud the efforts to rebalance the classes, but equipment has not followed suit with the changes. Wether its unreachable stats (HC PE) or just flat missing equipment (TL63 Gatlin Cannon), the viability of some classes suffers, and thus NC as a whole.

Slot calculation on non-rare items vs. CST skill.
In a world of thousands of players making items, the current model probably works fairly well. Problem is... Too few players means that CSTs MUST make 100+ of a weapon to come out with 3-4 worth pulling up the trade channel to sell and the whole non-rare enconomy loses steam.

Non-weapon mods are poorly implemented/explained.
Many of the mods for items have no in-game use at all (i.e. most melee mods) or do not have text descriptions that properly explain thier use (generic text on most NC items this long after release raises alot of eyebrows int he gaming community). This leaves a tremendous gap in the effectiveness of much of our equipment and fails to educate the paying player on what to do (or NOT do...). I have tried to get a number of people playing NC, but in the end they quit becuse the game itself feels like paying retail for an incomplete beta. Its not lack of polish that gets to them---its the lack of attention to detail in the face of thier spending thier time to advance thier character into the same mold as every other character in NC with incomplete equipment.

I love NC. I have yet to spend as much time with any other game as I do in here without getting paid for making it happen. I dont envy Reakktor for the task of balancing so many factors that must inevitably go into a meaningful balancing effort.
What I do envy them for, however, is having a community that still vehmently loves this game, plays with all thier heart and supports every effort to adapt and overcome the challenges.

--Aeon

Zheo

09-02-10, 15:24

Our discussions in the recent weeks told us "stop the cheaters", "fix the netcode" and "fix balancing". So: What, in your opinion, is the single most urgent balancing problem? Why? And what should be done? In PvP and in PvE?

There's a few things;

WoC:- Add WoC for other classes, PPU, APU, MC, HC.

Melee & APU:- Fix (enough said)

Combat:- Possibly lower the "lock on" when running to something stupid, to stop the constant running around in PvP which doesn't make sense. Since when do soldier's run around in circles to avoid the enemy getting a lock? They use cover. All thought that may not be practical for the game. So I'd suggest KK come up with some ideas, and try them out, get players to vote and then pick the most enjoyed.

LiL T

13-02-10, 22:48

Last time I played I could not work it out, there were some people I sure they were cheating and that has put me off playing. The dissy I know its a high tech level but its way to much! Considering they can run with it so fast and the holo PA gives even more run speed, this makes it unbalanced to hell. Now some peoples dissys really hurt to the point you can't stand even a few seconds of it which is retarded or could be a damage hack. I don't want to talk about the hacks but this needs to be addressed...

Some of the other weapons are also insane and they are not that hard to get, some of the tank heavy weapons for instance that are hacknet items? The dev should aim like shit? Well I've fought some dev tanks that never miss with that thing and its a real nasty weapon.

I really do wonder... I've seen speed hacks so blatant and with out giving names because I can never be 100% sure but a ppu that I'm trying to kill that is jumping around the screen with no animation is very suspect. I lost my rag at a GM who is obviously fucking clueless asking me for screen shots and SHIT? WTF if I report some one you should investigate you bones heads, you have the tools to watch people so do it and start banning people...

I don't sit there taking screen shots of people I think are hacking, a screen shot is not proof in the slightest, you need to see them doing it and ruining it for everyone!

/edit I did not give the GM abuse I simply ignored them...

LiL T

13-02-10, 22:57

I'd disagree.

I'd say melee and APU.

I agree they are worthless except the cunting APU that does 3 hits and you're dead I forget his name, heres hoping hes finally banned...

LiL T

13-02-10, 23:01

Tell you what you give me a GM temp job for like 1 month un paid and all the hackers will be banned....

That's how bad this game has become...

Zheo

13-02-10, 23:09

I don't sit there taking screen shots of people I think are hacking, a screen shot is not proof in the slightest, you need to see them doing it and ruining it for everyone!

I'd agree with that. It wouldn't kill the GM team to spend a few nights watching Plaza 2 and then perm-a-banning them. Failing that it'd be nice if the dev's could put a stop to it in the now-late-never-to-be-seen-patch.

Saying that though it's easy to talk about it however in practise it might not be so easy. Specially if you p.o. people who aren't actually cheating it's a fine way to ruin your business, then there's red tape maybe their simply not being allowed to do said banning for whatever reason. Hence why I didn't come back to PvP :D

Biglines

13-02-10, 23:37

a GM asked you for a screenshot to proof hacking? lol, that's funny as people who get fraps'ed don't even get banned

the point is that gm's have no tools to see if someone hacks, and if they did, most of the gm's don't actually play the game so don't know how to recognise hacking, I've heard of gm's asking players to explain about the game and what certain things are called

neocron is apparently very very easy to hack with any tool since the stone ages (neocron has no antischeat), from what I hear 90% of all hacks could be stopped with a simple punkbuster-like app that checks file consistency

Dr Phil

14-02-10, 00:20

Too many noobs makes my head hurt...

You can easley make setups, that will make noobs think that you hack.. I used one of my tank for quite a while, with 130-140 ATL / 180-200 AGL, many people was sure that i was speed hacking.
Ive done high damage setups too, and its the same thing..

With 300+ HC, any weapon will hurt like a mofo..
About some dev tanks.. Yea i agree, some of em seems a bit strange, i know that i cant aim that weapon for shit, not even with capped aim% on it.. But thats me being shit with that weapon :(

My AK spy (can also use Dissy), has been accused of anything, and the reason for that, is good setups and a damn good aim.

LT, i dont know if you has started playing again, since im out of game at the moment, but if your still as slow as you where while you was in MC, then its not hard to figure out, why everyone is doing massive damage to you - your not hard to aim..

Biglines

14-02-10, 01:38

hehe it's true that there aren't as many cheaters as some people think, hell, I was very proud to be accused of cheating by 3 different people now :D

but there sure as hell are too many cheaters still around, so let's hope KK actually manage to overcome their chronic ignoring of customers and actually do as they said sometime in the coming years

dr phil, what are ur ingame chars?

extract

14-02-10, 02:46

yes dissi is overpowered, but it IS also the highest TL direct dmg weapon out of ALL the weapons ingame period.

although I do agree it does seem at times a bit much but with a good aim vs a dissi user you will find that it also does not take very much to kill a spy either....

now considering overpoweredness of weapons in general in the terms of balancing I think before the hammer and wrath of god is thrown upon dissi that some other weapons get a look as well...

take the xbow for example its a TL 100 weapon but is extremely powerful definitely overpowered for its TL

cursed soul does massive dmg at TL 105

hell even liberator at TL 93 even though not many people use it does incredibly high dmg

heres the best one TL 81 non rare stabber pulse rifle this gun does dmg consistent with a weapon that should be around TL 100s

the whole lot of weapons is completely fucked now that i think about it...or maybe just the game in general in terms of balancing but to put just one or two things on a list wouldnt do anything I think in order for this game to be truly close to balanced it would need a total makeover

zii

14-02-10, 12:01

Too many noobs makes my head hurt...

Yep, rather annoying.

With 300+ HC, any weapon will hurt like a mofo..
About some dev tanks.. Yea i agree, some of em seems a bit strange

Yes, my Tanks resists are pretty crap, but even fully buffed, I won't stand a chance in hell against some Dev tanks, and am dead after 3 Dev shots: The Dev tank is standing on the other side of the room. :lol

I tried to use my Dev with PA (I have all imps set to H-C except the second MC5 chip and ReflexB), and I was lucky to spray napalm over the wall and gas myself with a full arti Dev. There is something that I have missed, thus I won't use the Dev at present. Cannot aim...

Regards APU anti-buffs.
This was a bad idea when it was like this. By the time the APU has cast the buff he is may well be dead, and if not then probably won't have enough mana left in the PSI pool to HL the unbuffed opponent. My memory might be a tad jaded, but I think I remember it like this.

Biglines

14-02-10, 13:47

Yep, rather annoying.

Yes, my Tanks resists are pretty crap, but even fully buffed, I won't stand a chance in hell against some Dev tanks, and am dead after 3 Dev shots: The Dev tank is standing on the other side of the room. :lol

I tried to use my Dev with PA (I have all imps set to H-C except the second MC5 chip and ReflexB), and I was lucky to spray napalm over the wall and gas myself with a full arti Dev. There is something that I have missed, thus I won't use the Dev at present. Cannot aim...

Regards APU anti-buffs.
This was a bad idea when it was like this. By the time the APU has cast the buff he is may well be dead, and if not then probably won't have enough mana left in the PSI pool to HL the unbuffed opponent. My memory might be a tad jaded, but I think I remember it like this.
I'm not a bad aimer with my ionic (generally hit 90% of the shots), but I can't hit more than 10% of my devourer shots, and that's with around 250 h-c and full int in wep, and I certainly can't hit people while running, bracket wont even close if hes running in a straight line in 2 cm in front of me, so yes, a lot of the dev users currently in game are very suspect at the moment (they hit 90% of the shots while running fullspeed from the other side of the map)

but then again, from what I hear that should be the first kind of thing to be fixed if they incorporate any type of anti-cheat

and tbh they should ask for a copy of a passport or something when registering, making new accounts is way too easy at the moment, would make hacking a far riskier business and keep out most of the casual hackers (at the moment it's possible to be back in game within the hour after getting permanently banned, turn into a copbot and stand around plaza one for a day without even getting noticed, and yes that happened to an AD member a few months back)

Kanedax

14-02-10, 16:27

I enjoy all the AD references on the forums. I love the fact that you hate us!

On the devourer, I can hit probably 75 to 80% with that weapon if only because I have used it as my primary weapon for a couple years on my tank. The problem most people have with the dev is that they tend to apply the same aiming style as all the other weapons in the game to it when, frankly, it aims completely different. I can miss with a full reticle lock and hit with my crosshair wide open. Don't know why the dev is different but it is. Practice, you'll get it eventually.

Dr Phil

14-02-10, 16:34

dr phil, what are ur ingame chars?
Check your PMs ;)

Sadly i fear that our wish for anti-cheating software, is going to stay a dream..
PROVE ME WRONG KK! :angel:

Man i miss NC, hope its not going to be too long till my internet is back up..
first the computer blew up, then when it got fixed, i had to move apartment, and now that i have moved, im waiting for the connection to get activated 8|

Dr Phil

14-02-10, 16:39

I enjoy all the AD references on the forums. I love the fact that you hate us!
I dont hate AD, at all - and was a member for ages myself <3
BUT, AD has been known to use noob tactics quite often..
Massive zergs, ninjas and droners, just to mention a few of those tactics ;)
At NCs current state, i guess that most clans use those tactics though - sadly..
I do remember the old days where AD would show up with 20+ people VS. 2-3 people..
And thats the reason why AD will always be known as a clan using lame tactics.

On the devourer, I can hit probably 75 to 80% with that weapon if only because I have used it as my primary weapon for a couple years on my tank. The problem most people have with the dev is that they tend to apply the same aiming style as all the other weapons in the game to it when, frankly, it aims completely different. I can miss with a full reticle lock and hit with my crosshair wide open. Don't know why the dev is different but it is. Practice, you'll get it eventually.
I actually was good with it back "in the day" (in 2.2 ofc), but after a 6 month break i completely lost my "touch" with it, and havent been able to get my aim with it back :(

I havent tried that hard though, since i destroy too hard with my sexy CS' :D

Biglines

14-02-10, 17:26

[K1]Luke

14-02-10, 18:29

As was said there might not be as many cheaters as people think, but there are quite a few that you know for certain cheat. Such as tanks who can take down a fully buffed PPU in 5 seconds with a dev, then runs into the middle of 6 enemy fighters and takes about 100 damage before killing them all. I've been messing around with a high speed/high damage Ionic cannon tank with nSkill, but I know for a fact when I go in game if I get hit I'll go down like a b***h.

There are setups out there which may look like people are cheating, but there's a lot of people out there who are running around and you think to yourself "How the hell did they get all those resists, speed, weapon lore and damage and have so much hack they can take an OP layer in 6 seconds"

Dr Phil

15-02-10, 15:26

Luke']As was said there might not be as many cheaters as people think, but there are quite a few that you know for certain cheat. Such as tanks who can take down a fully buffed PPU in 5 seconds with a dev, then runs into the middle of 6 enemy fighters and takes about 100 damage before killing them all.
Love people that can empty a Dev in a few seconds, THOSE hackers always gets banned fast - or just log in once a month....

Luke']There are setups out there which may look like people are cheating, but there's a lot of people out there who are running around and you think to yourself "How the hell did they get all those resists, speed, weapon lore and damage and have so much hack they can take an OP layer in 6 seconds"
My tanks current setup, makes me take about 40 damage from BHG, i have about 130-140 energy with a heat3 (not counting armor ofc), and about 80 fire with heat3 (again, not counting armor). And hes still fast - not lightning fast, as he used to be, but fast enough for bad players to miss at least 50-75% of theire shots. And he hurts like a mofo with CS :D

My spy is even worse though, and the char that i have gotten accused of hacking the most on..
And im just using a balanced setup on him, with PPR, Long Range thingy 3, DIP, and SF - and obviously a holovest.

When i was specced to hack on my spys, i took like 3mins to get a layer though... Worst hacker ever :angel: