View Full Version : How to make Neocron profitable
This is a long post and something I thought about a little bit, with my reasoning behind my theory too, its a long post with many stages!
Ok, NC cannot really make much of a profit, if any, from its current subscriber base, if, as I've been told, the server %'s is 1%=10 people, at 15% only 150 people are online, whilst that may be enough to pay for the servers and bandwidth, its not going to make billions of pounds for KK. So what is the solution?
Well my idea is rather simple, it frees up KK from expensive developer time, and brings in a way for KK to start to make money from NC, its not really all that complicated, and the idea seems pretty straight forward.
1) Open source the NC2 client - just the client not the server side code.
By opening the client you can free up the paid developers to work purely on server side coding, and into implimenting the rest of my idea. Choose a licence which allows commercial use of the code, but is restrictive enough to allow parts of the code to remain closed source. Set up a "foundation" of developers with a lead developer (Snowcrash) who is fully in charge of all modifications. Using something like git will allow developers to work on changes which can then be tested and if the code doesn't work properly it can be removed rather than being added to the main code base. Before any code is put into the main code base it has to be approved by the lead developer.
My reason for this, by opening the code you will attract people who like to develop stuff, who like to programme and it frees up the KK staff to work on other stuff. An open source FTP client *should* eventually become more stable and more secure, which leads me on to point 2!
2) Once the client is open source, create a list of must do firsts.
The first thing to be done is to work on securing the client. File checks etc. to ensure only a fully patched 100% complete unmodified client is allowed to connect to the game servers, this will prevent people with programming skills from modifying their own OS client to give them an advantage. It could be something as simple as a random check of 15 files before the client is launched, and if the 15 files fail the integrity check the client reports back to the server "this client is trying to launch naughty code! spank them!"
The second thing to work on would be cheat detection, simple checking to ensure that people are not using hacks or any other unfair means in game. The last thing people want when playing a game is for cheats to have an advantage, its not very nice and will put people off with "I aint playing that game, its full of cheaters!"
Other stuff to add with a lower priority, would be stability, adding the "bloom filter", little things like that. Make NC2 the difference that Windows 7 is over Vista, small changes that improve the entire experience. Who knows, maybe one day FRE will be a legend like the Dildo of Maven (btw, can a GM gimme one of them? :D)
3) The money making part - DLC
This is where KK will start to make money, from downloadable content. The DLC will be the source code that is closed, it will be created by the paid dev's, with input from the forum users. The people who play the game will have the option of spending real money on in game items.
50p items - 25% XP pills, taking this pill will grant you a bonus of 25% XP for 48 hours to a certain stat (INT/STR etc..)
99p items (99p is important, its psychologically better than £1) - 50% XP pills, same as the 50p pill only it grants a bonus of 50% XP over 24 hours. Logging out stops the timer, you can only have 1 pill active at a time, taking another pill will cancel any pill you currently have running, 99p will always over-write 50p, but 50p pills will give a "you cannot use this" message.
£1.99 items - maybe teir 4 gloves in trade skills, giving you a better chance of slots, or slightly increasing XP, making CST/RES/Pokes faster, non-drop and does not take damage -also (importantly) non-tradable.
£3.99 items - uber instanced dungeons with guaranteed uber loot drops, obviously the drops will have to be worth the trouble, new items, a bit better than the current items available, MC5 v2.0 or something, a Pain Easer V3.5, or a mix of both. The dungeons will be hard and require a good team to complete, but only one person needs to buy the dungeon. To stop grief tactics, all loot goes only to the person whos dungeon is it, so its put into a chest at the end of the dungeon which only dungeon owner can open.
The DLC doesn't need to be expensive, it can be very cheap but people will pay for good downloadable content, micro-transactions I believe they are called.
This is where KK will start to make its money on Neocron. People who are going for Woc 10 Dex will happily pay 99p every couple of days if it makes their XP easier to get. And as the client is open source, the developers will be free to concentrate on DLC and server side code.
4) Make an official NC dev centre.
Something like the techhaven wiki place could (if they wanted that is, its just an example!) could become the central area for development of the NC client, hosting bug trackers and what not, a focal area for the community, with the NC forum and the dev centre working together to put into place ideas from the community.
I say techhaven wiki because they already host a lot of information about NC, so in my mind at least would be a good place for looking for information, as well as inputting information.
There could also be Official NC Rep's, unpaid people who have fantastic ideas, like DJ for instance, they could be in charge of looking at ideas for the code base, be it new items, balance issues etc and kind of like a senate, they sit around and discuss the good ideas, the bad ideas, modify them and eventually either reject or accept the ideas and stick them on the to-do list. It makes use of the NC community who are without a doubt, NC's most valuable asset.
===
So, thats my basic skeleton of an idea on how KK can turn NC into a profitable venture, by using the current community to impliment new items, areas, mobs, ideas and what not, and by enticing new people who have an interest in working on the code base to improve the client, make it more secure, hunt down and destroy cheats, give it more stability.
A further off-shoot of that, once the client is open-source, one of the objectives could be to try and remove the reliance on DirectX, so the community of programmers could attempt a port to Linux or OSX (without wine) futher opening the possible client base. It could also attract Linux developers who generally seem pretty good at programming.
My idea kind of hinges on the client being open sourced, as that frees up dev time for the DLC, though if the client is not open sourced, the DLC idea would still be a viable option, but would require a fair bit of time from the dev's to work on the DLC, as well as on the client, and on the payment methods and security and, well, quite a lot of stuff that would be needed.
Mighty Max
29-01-09, 20:55
Sorry to burst your bubble.
If you open up the client as open source, there is NO WAY to make sure only whitelisted clients can connect to the server. The server needs to trust the client to send the correct data to check against the whitelist.
But we now know in which way this check is done AND can build a workaround into the client to fake a whitelisted version for use with ease.
Breaking your (well meant) chain in the first element.
If Neocron were to be open sourced, it would ruin the game.
In order for Neocron to have any type of "secure" future, what really needs to be done is a complete rebuild of Neocron using a newer modern engine.
it's easy having DLC, but what happens when the tiny population thinks "Fuck this..." and all finally leave?
I know of no marketing from KK, I've seen NOT a SINGLE advertisement for Neocron 2, except for the PC Zone magazine, in which our twatty community fucked up a potentially good review.
@ Max - All the security can be handled server side, which is closed source, the in built security could also be part of a closed source solution if it was really needed.
The client has to communicate with the server, the server says "ok, check a couple of files for me - pass an MD5 hash please" the client says "sure, two secs... yep they pass!" the server says "great! now run an MD5 check on the checker please" and the client goes "thats failed". It basically runs a check on itself and the server, which only KK has the code to, runs security checks based on the code.
@ Seezur001 - To totally rebuild NC would cost KK millions in investment, money they kind of don't have right now, and a client base that would make such investment impossible. By opening the client it promotes external investment, which in turn would give frequent patches for both stability and security, more items will be added from the community (fire bones? poison resist bones?).
By opening the client and allowing a community to decide on the implimentation of new free content (paid content is controlled by KK) the game itself will expand, which should see new people coming to play, the more people that come to play, the more developers will be drawn in, and the more money KK can make from DLC.
You may even start to get Mech mods, who knows!
Mighty Max
29-01-09, 21:34
@ Max - All the security can be handled server side, which is closed source, the in built security could also be part of a closed source solution if it was really needed.
No it can't. The server will never be able to tell if the client got the shot direction from some algorithm in the client or the player at the mouse.
It can't know if the client suppressed a friendly-fire in chaotic situations.
It can not decide if the client has other "helping hands" build it.
etc etc etc
The client has to communicate with the server, the server says "ok, check a couple of files for me - pass an MD5 hash please" the client says "sure, two secs... yep they pass!" the server says "great! now run an MD5 check on the checker please" and the client goes "thats failed". It basically runs a check on itself and the server, which only KK has the code to, runs security checks based on the code.
You are forgetting that the hash the client returns does not need to be the actual hash, but the (predictable because the algorithm is known or can be easily be captured) hash of the original content. (Not to mention that MD5 is broken just as sha-1)
Even if you use a asymetric encryption and check that, you are giving out the mean to fake it by opening the client up (even when hiding the key as a closed-bin of the open source client)
The only way to ensure you can trust the communication is a Trusted Path. But that apporach has other issues (inclusive this massive no-TPCM movement :p )
Mighty has some mighty knowledge of this stuff - if he says nay it's most definitly correct :)
I'd prefer Seezur001's solution anyway - a 'proper', 'lets start this from scratch' redo would be teh win!
...anyone care to provide the 7-8 digit investment? :o
One MMO has already gone OS but maintains a subscription fee (Ryzom) so that to me would suggest there are ways to secure a client and ensure all the data the client is sending is the correct data.
I guess one way to do it would be certain files are encrypted when the client is built, it then has to go through a check to ensure the files are how they should be.
The built exe instead of NeocronLauncher.exe is Download.exe or something which has to download NeocronLauncher.exe from the FTP and cannot be a modified version, obviously to test the builds Download.exe could connect to a test server and be used as a client, but only the downloaded NC exe could connect to the live servers.
Once the NeocronLauncher.exe is first downloaded, it forces a file check, checking hashes and file size and if any of the files fail the hash or are the incorrect size the Launcher downloads the correct files and the server keeps a note of the files downloaded, every time the client then tries to connect, instead of just connecting it tests the files.
This is the reason why I put secure the client as the number 1 priority, and getting rid of the bits that allow cheating as number 2.
MD5 is broken, I seem to recall something about people allowing any file to have the MD5 of another file no matter what that file may be, so instead of MD5, use one which isn't broken :D
There will never be a new Neocron, unless Nobby earns billions and decides to be nice and licence a new engine and pay lots of people lots of money :P
Of course I'd buy Neocron...
Just for the fact... "Who'd've thought it... Nobby... wtf... he bought... Neocron?" :p
:p
Mighty Max
29-01-09, 23:02
One MMO has already gone OS but maintains a subscription fee (Ryzom) so that to me would suggest there are ways to secure a client and ensure all the data the client is sending is the correct data.
No, it just means, that they think they can handle the amount of cheating. Well i don't trust anyone in that direction anymore, esp. not some of the individuals that have played nc
I guess one way to do it would be certain files are encrypted when the client is built, it then has to go through a check to ensure the files are how they should be.
Sure encrypt it. What is the instance that has to decrypt it? Its the client, the thing you just gave to us.
It's like giving me a treasure in a locked box with the key taped under it.
[...]but only the downloaded NC exe could connect to the live servers.
Thats the point: This last point is impossible to ensure. It's a very classic security problem. Known as the Alice = Mallory problem.
No matter what you do, you have to give Alice the method to connect to the server, but then Mallory (the attacker) knows it too.
This renders every security basing on that premise void.
I wish it was not that way, but it is.
Making Neocron open source is suicide :P. The game will be infested with cheaters :(. There is no secure way, it can always be broken.
You can encrypt data, it'll be decrypted by figuring out the formula or retrieving the decryption key from the client's memory. CRC hashes etc. won't keep the game safe, it can be easily manipulated. There is code shifting but that can be broken as well.
It's better to have all these things than have nothing at all, it slows the hackers down a bit but when it's broken it is broken until a new patch arrives. And by releasing patches all the time just for the cause of slowing hackers down, the hackers can eventually see a pattern in the code and program their noob tool to automatically find the right bits of code and use it for their cause.
I think the best security is on the server side, monitoring each player and see if there is a possibility of an aimbot, teleporting etc... That wont stop hacks like colored models, wallhacks etc. though.
Another good thing is to also monitor the running process' on the system and check for debugging tools etc. and eliminate them. Add debug protection etc.....
plus, KK has let it known that deals with other companies for writing the damn game in the first place (KK didn't develop nc by itself inhouse) would prohibit opening it up for anyone.. (they were payed to make the game, and a deal that they would be the ones to do further work on it....
or at least that's what I've heard.
as for the checking if the file is correct, wouldn't that be possible with a second client? like punkbuster or something, that checks if the "other" client that is connected is correct? this punkbuster wouldn't be open of course?
Mighty Max
30-01-09, 01:44
IIRC Nid corrected you on that statement allready in a different thread.
NC was developed by KK. There are some assets from outside, but well you don't reimplement another huffman(pak) if you don't need to, do you?
Asurmen Spec Op
30-01-09, 02:13
Sorry to burst your bubble.
If you open up the client as open source, there is NO WAY to make sure only whitelisted clients can connect to the server. The server needs to trust the client to send the correct data to check against the whitelist.
But we now know in which way this check is done AND can build a workaround into the client to fake a whitelisted version for use with ease.
Breaking your (well meant) chain in the first element.
ugh...
You cannot EVER trust your clients, period.
Open or closed, it doesn't matter.
I am shocked as a programmer that you would actually make the assumption that because no one can see your code that data you receive is safe.
Fuck, it isn't even that hard to inject data.
Verify ALL incoming data, sure it slows it down but you should not trust the other side blindly.
In order for Neocron to have any type of "secure" future, what really needs to be done is a complete rebuild of Neocron using a newer modern engine.
That's where my money is. Take the Unreal 3 engine, redo the Neocron zones one by one, throw in a little SpeedTreeRT, sprinkle a little PhysX in there, rework how zoning itself works a bit to make indoor zonelines make sense (non-campable) and see what can be done with outside zonelines to make it more seamless (if possible), and viola, there you have it.
Neocron: Redux
So... when I win a million dollars and I can drop $750g on the Unreal 3 engine, $10g on development hardware, can hire a graphics artist, and can take a year or three off work, I'll give everyone I knew in NC a free trial :p
That's where my money is. Take the Unreal 3 engine, redo the Neocron zones one by one, throw in a little SpeedTreeRT, sprinkle a little PhysX in there, rework how zoning itself works a bit to make indoor zonelines make sense (non-campable) and see what can be done with outside zonelines to make it more seamless (if possible), and viola, there you have it.
i prefer to use IdTech 4 than UT3 engine for NC so we could have a native linux/Mac OS X clients, i agree to use PhysX which has a good support on linux thanks to Nvidia. Why make zones??? wipe out zones and make a single huge map (Like on SWG).
So... when I win a million dollars and I can drop $750g on the Unreal 3 engine, $10g on development hardware, can hire a graphics artist, and can take a year or three off work, I'll give everyone I knew in NC a free trial :p
instead of winning USD 1M could you win like 10M? because would need new programers and artists (2/3D, musicians, concep artists).
about using punkbuster is quite nice a idea but i don't know how it would cost to implement that on server and client side...
cheers
Free accounts with ingame and browser ads.
Tough to start, but the best bet you'll get considering the low populations you'll get even then. The game is well past its prime, so in todays competitive market place Neocron will never ever be anywhere near as profitable as other titles, it needs to make enough however to continue running itself and providing for support.
@FN, haha, someones been playing the Global Agenda alpha too, eh?
Asurmen Spec Op
30-01-09, 07:19
hire a code monkey, a good code monkey. Code monkey fix bugs.
Mighty Max
30-01-09, 09:18
ugh...
You cannot EVER trust your clients, period.
Open or closed, it doesn't matter.
I am shocked as a programmer that you would actually make the assumption that because no one can see your code that data you receive is safe.
Fuck, it isn't even that hard to inject data.
Verify ALL incoming data, sure it slows it down but you should not trust the other side blindly.
I didn't make the assumption anywhere.
Just mentioned that you can't hand it out on the gold chain either.
IIRC Nid corrected you on that statement allready in a different thread.
NC was developed by KK. There are some assets from outside, but well you don't reimplement another huffman(pak) if you don't need to, do you?
mmk, I thought he corrected it with that, telling why it could never be open source
edit:
Your enthusiasm is great to see and very much appreciated, but I'm afraid that we're not able to take you up on it. We investigated the possibility of opening up the content creation tools a long, long time ago but there were many legal and contractual issues that prevented us from doing so.
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=143003 << quite a similar thread
Content and code are two very different issues Biglines, as are open sourcing the game and accepting user-created content submissions for inclusion in a retail game.
Lexx seems to be making the same mistake people always make when suggesting NC goes open source forget that open sourcing a program is not a zero-effort process. To do so would require a significant input of resources and time from KK, which let's be fair, they probably don't have to give to a game that will never make useful amounts of money.
I know its a lot of effort to OS an application, which is why I suggested the senate type thing. Once the client is OS all KK really need to do is have a lead dev check the submissions, with a team of people in a trusted zone who can also check the code to make sure no one has stuck in a "lets make everything free!" routine. This would leave KK free to do other stuff.
Lets not kid ourselves on the cheating though, open or closed source people will always find a way to cheat, especially if it makes their e-peen seem a little bigger than people who don't cheat. An OS client on the other hand would have people knowing where cheats are more likely to be targeted and could be fixed with a watch on it to see if anyone is exploiting that cheat.
Even if the OS isn't viable, the micro-transactions would still be the best way for KK to start making money, a FTP client with DLC. Oblivion for instance went the DLC way, people paid real money just to get a horse with armour in a single player game.
Much that I would like to see a open source Neocron, I'm afraid I can't see it happening.
A few points I've picked up on.
Open source the NC2 client - just the client not the server side code.
It will be very difficult at times to work on the client if it is open source, and the server is closed source. What if there is a bug somewhere? Is it in the client side, or the server side? Ok you can do black box testing, but only up to a point.
Even if you had an open source client, you would need someone reviewing the code changes at KK, it would take a lot of time and effort to ensure the change doesn't break anything. Fixing one line of code can often have an impact elsewhere.
hire a code monkey, a good code monkey. Code monkey fix bugs.
It depends what you mean by a code monkey, but if you mean someone who just codes without thinking "What impact will changing this line of code have?" then they are totally unsuitable to work on any software project, open or closed.
Also, you would need more than just programmers to work on just the code with a project the size of Neocron. You would need somone to keep everyone in order, and get them to follow an agreed plan. In otherwords you need some decent Project Managment.
Now to the downloadable content, which is more related to the thread title. TBH, the DLC bit would be better being discussed on it's own, forget all the Opensource bits, NC doesn't need to be open source to be profitable, Lexxuk has some small but simple ideas that could work.
My 2nc's worth on this subject for now. ;)
This just isn't going to work and they won't have it anyway.
This is the lets make neocron open source post number 18948384583859
Asurmen Spec Op
30-01-09, 18:45
M
It depends what you mean by a code monkey, but if you mean someone who just codes without thinking "What impact will changing this line of code have?" then they are totally unsuitable to work on any software project, open or closed.
Also, you would need more than just programmers to work on just the code with a project the size of Neocron. You would need somone to keep everyone in order, and get them to follow an agreed plan. In otherwords you need some decent Project Managment.
Now to the downloadable content, which is more related to the thread title. TBH, the DLC bit would be better being discussed on it's own, forget all the Opensource bits, NC doesn't need to be open source to be profitable, Lexxuk has some small but simple ideas that could work.
My 2nc's worth on this subject for now. ;)
By Code Monkey I just meant a coder, I'd prefer to use the term hacker but now adays people use the annoying media definition of hacker :(
the Good bit would hopefully keep out any 'don't pay attention' people. To fix bugs you have to pay attention to what you do.
I didn't make the assumption anywhere.
Just mentioned that you can't hand it out on the gold chain either.
It was implied. Closed source applications are no more secure than OSS, in practice OSS apps are generally more secure because of the whole 'more eyes' thing.
But open sourcing NC is not something I see happening.
Mighty Max
30-01-09, 19:06
It was implied. Closed source applications are no more secure than OSS, in practice OSS apps are generally more secure because of the whole 'more eyes' thing.
No it wasn't.
I only described the implication from open source to no security. (A -> !B)
That does not give any hint for !A.
If you read my further posts you will noticed that i wrote about the general inability to ensure client security.
Asurmen Spec Op
30-01-09, 20:02
No it wasn't.
I only described the implication from open source to no security. (A -> !B)
That does not give any hint for !A.
If you read my further posts you will noticed that i wrote about the general inability to ensure client security.
" If you open up the client as open source, there is NO WAY to make sure only whitelisted clients can connect to the server. The server needs to trust the client to send the correct data to check against the whitelist."
If you understood that this is equally a problem with closed source, then why cite it at all?
Client security sucks, I don't see it as a reason not to Open Source something...
Mighty Max
30-01-09, 20:35
" If you open up the client as open source, there is NO WAY to make sure only whitelisted clients can connect to the server. The server needs to trust the client to send the correct data to check against the whitelist."
If you understood that this is equally a problem with closed source, then why cite it at all?
Because the effort is something that makes it a difference.
If you take the sentance after that quote, you'll see the and highlighted to point that out that this comes with the bonus of ease and for any dummy.
Client security sucks, I don't see it as a reason not to Open Source something...
Well but i do. I have seen the effects of an well dokumented, open sourced interface to the core mechanics of a game. I know that's just my opinion.
But I think to remember that if you sak Nid on "Decal" he'd just tell you the same
Asurmen Spec Op
30-01-09, 22:57
Well but i do. I have seen the effects of an well dokumented, open sourced interface to the core mechanics of a game. I know that's just my opinion.
But I think to remember that if you sak Nid on "Decal" he'd just tell you the same
I think a sample set of one is a bit small to make any predictions...
Mighty Max
30-01-09, 23:12
I think a sample set of one is a bit small to make any predictions...
Well it show's a risk. A risk that needs to be considered and not ignored.
just an opinion, but isnt nc atm just as open as when it would be open source? hacks everywhere... the people that want to cheat can cheat now anyway, would it be that much different in an open source client? perhaps it would make it easier, but easy and easier isn't that much apart...
what a waste of space there not going to do anything.. :(
@FN, haha, someones been playing the Global Agenda alpha too, eh?
>.>
<.<
I have no idea what you are talking about good sir.
Anyway - I said recreate NC zone by zone, but yes, a huge seamless world would be nice, but I am not sure of the practicality of creating one persistent world that large. Let's just say there are other alphas out there right now boasting that, but the performance is NOT so great. I'd rather have smaller, STABLE zones than one huge one. The only real problem with zonelines is how they are designed, imo.
Having a look around the forum, it appears that there hasnt been a patch in a year, and thats a very long time for no new content, no bug fixes, no possible exploits fixed and gives the impression that the game is abandoned.
I play FFXI, well, did, still do sorta on and off, and every 3 months they have an uber patch which not only addresses job balance, adds new abilities to jobs, but adds tons of new armour, new zones, pretty much a mini expansion in itself, every 3 months. A couple of days later they have a patch to fix the things they missed, then maybe another patch to fix other stuff they may have missed, always in GMT prime time mind you, every patch day the servers are down till about 11PM UK time from aboug 3PM... bastards.
KK doesn't have the development funds, nor the staff levels of a company like SquareEnix, nor do they have the product name of Final Fantasy. What they do have is one of the most... whats the correct phrase... I guess if KK were a person, most of its player base would be KK's stalker. Fanatics, thats the word, stalker is a good Friday night :D
I know with the current financial troubles of KK's parent company, money is in about as much supply as Paris Hiltons chastity, and that is why they should leverage their community of fanatical fanatics.
The game needs new blood, it needs new players to start, it needs old players coming back, I'm pretty sure I didn't get an email from NC saying "NC2 is currently free to play, if you haven't been banned, come back and play, you'll get a free cookie!". But getting players back is only one side of the story, you need to be able to keep them. And you can't do that unless you give them new shiny things to play with, and KK doesn't seem to have the development team to be able to give lots of nice new toys to keep people occupied.
If you look at the world map, 2 factions control the entire map, thats just wrong in so many ways, so that needs to be addressed, how can the game encourage op fights, are op fights even possible with such a low population?
Cookie cutters rule, back in the day people spent hours experimenting with their set ups to get the optimal set up, then they would go out and kill people, then go back and refine their set up, which kept them busy, cookie cutters shouldn't be an optimal set up, people who experiment with their set ups should be rewarded for their efforts by finding a set up that works, but each set up has to have a weakness, there shouldn't be a perfect set up for any char which gives you the optimal resists against all forms of attack, its the old rock/paper/sciccocosorors, except everyone is able to use 3 hands.
NC needs a lot of work, and I don't think its work that KK are currently able to do, especially in the current financial situation of the entire planet, except Australia, they were smart and saved their money. KK will be focusing its funds and resources on the other game they are making, whilst NC needs a strong development team.
Maybe if they can't open source it, they can look to the community for skilled programmers who are happy to give their time into working on solutions which will help the game, people who have been talking about balance since 2001 could design new chips, people who made 8 slots EPR's could sort out new ideas for construction, but without excluding players who joined in NC2.
Asurmen Spec Op
31-01-09, 02:59
I'd say that what NC needs is not new content, but bug fixes.
Hey, I know the codebase is terrible, but the sooner you deal with it the better.
edit:
Well it show's a risk. A risk that needs to be considered and not ignored.
Fair enough, but doing nothing is a bigger risk.
How many Patches Per Month have there been since NC2 came out?
A depressingly low amount.
I can only remember 10 or so patches since I started playing NC, I'm sure Im low on that number but for the love of Droms, this is silly!
no new content, no bug fixes, no possible exploits fixed and gives the impression that the game is abandoned.
To be honest it was abandoned since Gold release.. It failed in marketing and advertisements.. They were respectful to keep it running since it does not cost them money they make back and maybe a tiny bit more on neocron...
But in the end Neocron will die once a mmo like it replaces it.
Or if they give me the server files and I will mass advertise 100% free with GM that will take time to ban exploiters and be in the game run some events omg..
You know how much fun it will be adding in new quests and even on bin files.. Since you can still modify somethings..
It be a blast... I know you can spawn and stack objects too so just emagine building some crazy fun stuff too for fun and boy...
Anyways I want on a dream there ;)
The only solution I see is merely selling up to someone else.
I don't see how they'll make any money anymore...
For starters, no marketing, for How long?
Noone can make accounts
No development
How are new players meant to see the game or even play it.
It feels a total shambles....
I simply don't play the game because it just feels totally empty.
Whenever i tried to start a "community project" of spreading the word of Neocron, either through unlawful forum spamming on major sites, or defacing wikipedia MMO's with adverts of neocron.
Whatever the method we could do for free, noone gave a shit.
There's no "Advertisement" pack or pictures available for us to use, so noone can be bothered to make any.
Where's the motivation?
If I had the money, I would take Neocron off KK's hands, but right now... impossible.
Sharper Blade
31-01-09, 03:23
Lets all toss in a couple bucks and buy neocron? ;)
How much you think a such game is worth now? I'm poor id offer like a grand but then someone prob offer more and try to make money off it and would fail again...
I want Neocron to live on and grow. Even if there is no new content free server run by the players would grow fast I know it..
Sharper Blade
31-01-09, 03:31
yeah but they wont sell it, it will die and stay dead
And this makes nobby...
A Very Sad Panda :(
yeah but they wont sell it, it will die and stay dead
so true :(
Sharper Blade
31-01-09, 05:02
fuck obama, hoder for president
make the tax payers pay millions for nc
If players is all neocron needs, imo it should go the way of eve-online. Get ads everywhere, on as many gaming sites as possible, and I don't think the player base would be a problem anymore.
Even if KK doesn't want to pay for it, the players might be able to form a marketting fund from donations to go spread the word?
But we all know that with today's society...
The majority won't even give the game a try due to "ugliness on the eyes".
Even though i don't see this, Everyone else i try to get into the game ALWAYS says this...
so meh... say goodbye ?
unless engine- graphics uphaul
specranator
12-02-09, 03:09
the game is free and still suffers from extremely low pops.
with pops as low as they are i think they should completely revert back to how NC1 was. no FSM bullshit, no needing to obtain a faction licence to build something. re open yakarma's or whatever it was and have everything less of a pain in the ass to do.
get rid of lockable GR's, the game was better when it was much more free and open.
change the way OP's are captured, its kinda rediculous when you think about it. plus it makes it so theres only a couple big clans on the board. (clans with enough hackers on at once, etc)
since theres nothing you can do about changing the models back to NC1 status ATLEAST GET RID OF THE GAY ANIMATIONS. FFS my monk looks like hes trying to figure out how to hold a dildo to shove in some 7 foot black mans ass. and whos bright idea was it to take away the old rez animation?
would really like options to change the text back to how it was in NC1, just so much easier to deal with. the RPOS is way too bulky, but everyone here has already heard their fair share of RPOS bitching. maybe an option "RPOS CLASSIC/NEW"?
or hell if all else fails maybe KK can outsource to korea and pay 200 kids a couple $$'s a week to fill the servers with randoms running around.
sorry i just think the way the game is currently setup is for a much greater player base than what there really is, and IMO it needs to change.
:lol:
edit: also a way to help with low pops is to add something like WOW's auction house, where items can be sold and traded while players are offline. IMO a must have for this low population count.
edit: also a way to help with low pops is to add something like WOW's auction house, where items can be sold and traded while players are offline. IMO a must have for this low population count.
This isnt wow and it will never be like wow Auction house are overrated its all about the trade channel
Just because you're a wow-hater doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
I Don't play simply because of low pops, still i pay.
I used to love warbot hunting and selling my rare parts, I used to love MC5, farming parts and farming money for myself.
I can't do any selling due to low pops, so something like this is something which IS needed.
specranator
13-02-09, 03:22
i hate wow as much as the next guy... i was just using it as an example...
i agree i like live player trading better, but it doesnt matter. with low pops it doesnt work. sure back in the day you could just walk into plaza 1 and have people lined up to help you. now its like getting a hand out.
ive been trying to get a support core for 3 days now... :rolleyes:
Just because you're a wow-hater doesn't mean it's not a good idea.
im not a wow hater i used to play wow both on the EU and US servers and have lvl 80s
Then explain why "it's all about the trade channel" ?
Yeah I remember the last time i used the trade channel...
NO FUCKING ANSWER
You simply cannot trade the old way you used to in NC without waiting days >.<
so yeah, post-office in NC anyone? ^^
so yeah, post-office in NC anyone? ^^
Technically not practical for KK:
We have already explained that the player shop feature is not going to be realised. The technical premises for such a feature are not given with the Neocron engine and would require a complete recoding of several parts of the core systems.
Answering the threadstarter, I don't believe any iteration of Neocron could be successful in comparison to other large MMOs which are around these days. The public reputation of the brand is not great so even a complete re-write and launch of Neocron 3 could be tainted.
In terms of making this game profitable for KK? I would sort out the payment options so people can create new accounts, and charge a reduced monthly sub in order to retain the existing players who are playing for free. Then make tiny but frequent changes to the game as resouces allow, in order to keep the game fresh, and encourage the GMs to roam the game causing chaos.
actually trade in nc nowadays is about knowing the right people, for example velvet has almost everything i wanna buy when ever i need something
Technically not practical for KK:
Answering the threadstarter, I don't believe any iteration of Neocron could be successful in comparison to other large MMOs which are around these days. The public reputation of the brand is not great so even a complete re-write and launch of Neocron 3 could be tainted.
Oh yes I totally forgot about that, sorry :p
Allow the creation of free accounts but charge for the use of rare weapons + woc and access to certain lvling areas done!
Doc Holliday
13-02-09, 21:27
i think a 3rd attempt to redo the game would need a new engine. beyond that it would be awesome to see it done. or overhaul this one completely and reintroduce some new features. not "features" though.
get some fucking gm's in game to sort out these cheating cunts.
nuff said.
while i'd prolly put it a bit more subtle, more involvement would be needed indeed, the cheaters/exploiters are the ones sticking around cuz this the only mmo where if they even get caught, they get laughable punishments like a ban of a month...
valve anti cheat for example bans you from all their games forever if they catch u cheating :S
Neo.x.phyte
15-02-09, 02:55
I mean honestly i wouldn't rip this idea up because one of us can't find a solution to a possible problem (espescially concerning open source client issues). Honestly when a game like this becomes open source people the community bring many things to the table. Sometimes i feel like there is people that play this game that know more about this game then KK(its not even opensource yet). This is probably one of the better ideas on how to handle Neocron. Considering it is a economic downturn anything that doesn't require a lot of startup capital is in the right direction. Honestly tho who am I to judge its not my game, but the idea shines light on some important issues. Instead of trying to keep up with the mainstream gaming world and make this game traditionally successful;why not make it an underground success. I.E. if it was available on a Linux platform and became free. Alternative methods could be used intelligently to build a working economic output. This game needs a non-conventional approach to save it. The attraction of open-source users would also bring interest into KK's other games. I honestly see the juice definitely worth the squeeze in this situation.
Why not investigate alternative routes of income through these methods and decide which one's would be most successful for Neocron. I like proposal at hand, but it needs polishing and it just doesn't fit the solution 100%.
PM if you wanna chat about this.
surprised nobody has got permission to attempt an NC3 shame cant start a forum with some nice art work and some ideas i think we have enough coders in this place to start "something" if permissions were obtained,
Just wish i could do artwork/graphics/modelling do everything but that :wtf:
and no chance will NC3 be born overnight if.....and IF all legals and perms. were got i would imagine an Alpha MIGHT be ready around end of 2011 or mid 2012.
edit: also a way to help with low pops is to add something like WOW's auction house, where items can be sold and traded while players are offline. IMO a must have for this low population count.
hahaha thats nice, to help with low pops u want to bring in a feature that ppl need to log in less then they'd have do now to get their stuff sold, thats hilarious, from low pop to no pop....
Question, are u employed by SOE or sumthing? that kinda logical attempt to MMO solutions sounds fking familiar
:lol:
hahaha thats nice, to help with low pops u want to bring in a feature that ppl need to log in less then they'd have do now to get their stuff sold, thats hilarious, from low pop to no pop....
Question, are u employed by SOE or sumthing? that kinda logical attempt to MMO solutions sounds fking familiar
:lol:
Actually, it would help ease the problems with the low population. Right now you can't really make a character and be completely successful in the first day if nobody decides to login that day.
The only real dependable resource we have right now is Ressi Blade, and even she will die off someday (<3 you Ressi :D)
surprised nobody has got permission to attempt an NC3 shame cant start a forum with some nice art work and some ideas i think we have enough coders in this place to start "something" if permissions were obtained,
Just wish i could do artwork/graphics/modelling do everything but that :wtf:
and no chance will NC3 be born overnight if.....and IF all legals and perms. were got i would imagine an Alpha MIGHT be ready around end of 2011 or mid 2012.
Why doesn't a group already start their own NC3, underground project and unearth it once it's legal?
Why doesn't a group already start their own NC3, underground project and unearth it once it's legal?
Because you just blew it? :-P
Asurmen Spec Op
16-02-09, 08:04
Why doesn't a group already start their own NC3, underground project and unearth it once it's legal?
because that gets your ass sued.
specranator
16-02-09, 10:31
hahaha thats nice, to help with low pops u want to bring in a feature that ppl need to log in less then they'd have do now to get their stuff sold, thats hilarious, from low pop to no pop....
Question, are u employed by SOE or sumthing? that kinda logical attempt to MMO solutions sounds fking familiar
:lol:
lol except once players are actually able to get the things they need they will WANT to be logged in and playing on their characters instead of logging off in spite of there being no one to buy/trade with... :rolleyes:
question, is my logic as flawed as you think? maybe you have a better solution?
when neocron was released everyone was a noob, and now we got our rares anyway. starting a new character doesnt mean that you cant get good equipment on your own.
also my experience is a bit different. i started a new character on terra a few weeks ago and i got everything i need in like 2 weeks. most people are really helpful and friendly. take a look at wow. if you want the really good stuff you have to get it your own and it takes much much longer than in nc
I would love for KK to do a "Experience Neocron as it used to be" week
All characters get temporarily "reset" back to 0/0 and we all can level again in aggies and everything together...
I do miss that.
Seems that EVERYONE that has a character, has merely "completed the game..."
Rares, WoC, Leveling,
Once you have them all done and completed, you're merely "on the same level" as every other competitor ingame.
which mmo game had a engine changed without making a new client? when i remember i'll post the game's name maybe KK could do that upgrade the engine without modifying the rest of the game code... right?
Asurmen Spec Op
16-02-09, 20:34
I would love for KK to do a "Experience Neocron as it used to be" week
All characters get temporarily "reset" back to 0/0 and we all can level again in aggies and everything together...
I do miss that.
Seems that EVERYONE that has a character, has merely "completed the game..."
Rares, WoC, Leveling,
Once you have them all done and completed, you're merely "on the same level" as every other competitor ingame.
I've capped one char since I started NC and I never plan to do it again, leveling is fucking boring, sorry.
specranator
16-02-09, 22:46
I've capped one char since I started NC and I never plan to do it again, leveling is fucking boring, sorry.
ive been around this game since 01 and have never fully capped a char :lol:
Asurmen Spec Op
16-02-09, 23:05
ive been around this game since 01 and have never fully capped a char :lol:
really?
Don't need an open source client, only an open source server. The admins could solve a lot of cheats and shit server side.
sorry i havent read all the way through the thread, but hit relpy a couple posts after FN's post on page 1, you suggest licensing the unreal 3 engine, i dont know but seeing what some people can do with the torque engine it would probably be better off using a measly $1500 on a commercial license of the latest tgea engine, and then theres the budget there to get the guys that pull off the stuff in the next few links.
http://tgeaenhanced.blogspot.com/
^ on that blog, look through all the _Hi-Res_ videos if you have the time, what hes pulled off with the torque engines fuckin stunning
theres also a video somewhere of a gears of war remake someone did with tgea, but all the links i can find are either removed or shitty vimeo... mebbe some issue with copying it i guess.. but they prettymuch replicated gow's shaders and texture depths spot on...
just a suggestion, i know the 'out of the box' version of tgea's pretty messy on the code, but a team of pro coders shouldnt have any problem fixing that up...
TGEA also supports 'atlas' terrain, you could have a 'seamless' neocron.....
wish could make a "Neocron 3 wishlist" from Game Engine>>>sample ideas>>>to plain old txt ideas.
for a simple idea.......If wished to keep current map (probably wont but) if did would another discovery of a 3rd city under the water on left of map be something to think of hehe
if we all beg nicely maybe someone be willing to create a sub forum for NC 3 wishlist perhaps?
afaik the NC Brainport sticky is for the current NC2....
Love to be part of a team to create/assist KK in making a possible NC3.......well here's hoping.. :angel:
Asurmen Spec Op
19-02-09, 02:33
To those of you who think that a new engine is a good idea, who the fuck will port over NC to that new engine? We haven't even had simple BUG FIXING patches let alone a new god damned engine. Plus all the money is going to BP...
to be involved in porting over current NC2 or even creating NC3 would still need permission from KK.
I just want to know what others who play NC2 would like to see in NC3 ..... sure there is bugs in NC2 which need sorting but thats not what this is about just the clean slate of if NC3 WAS to be born in the future from either KK a band of NC community persons or even a different company WHAT would u like to see in it.
more npc missions? group and solo types
more weapons?
advanced op war (fixed/mounted turrets player controlled)?
Copbots to actually chase and kill bad soullight?
Keep soullight ? more advanced form of soullight?
advanced trade skiller (players can create weapons more adv. than standard?)
PPU? keep? lower skills? more adaptive to dmg taking?
New game engine? current one rebuild? use a new current one?
Anti cheat implemented?
Keep current Skills? increase more skills? or even Decrease
my list could go on but really would like a new thread/sub forum to continue and read other suggestions even if people dont like the suggestions then come up with something else hopefully keep it all flame free :cool:
To those of you who think that a new engine is a good idea, who the fuck will port over NC to that new engine? We haven't even had simple BUG FIXING patches let alone a new god damned engine. Plus all the money is going to BP...
why fuck around with porting over... alot of times that causes all sorts of headaches and ends up in a compelte mess. Would be much better starting from scratch with a clean sheet if they decide to go for a licensed engine, or hell even writing a updated version of theirs and starting fresh on that ...
anyway, for a company thats flirting with the possibility of liquidation its a kinda moot subject when talking about writing a new game or even hoping for a patch for neocron as it currently stands.
Asurmen Spec Op
21-02-09, 06:47
why fuck around with porting over... alot of times that causes all sorts of headaches and ends up in a compelte mess. Would be much better starting from scratch with a clean sheet if they decide to go for a licensed engine, or hell even writing a updated version of theirs and starting fresh on that ...
anyway, for a company thats flirting with the possibility of liquidation its a kinda moot subject when talking about writing a new game or even hoping for a patch for neocron as it currently stands.
So now you think that not only will they throw away money for a new engine, but that they will throw away the entire client code and rewrite it?
:o
So now you think that not only will they throw away money for a new engine, but that they will throw away the entire client code and rewrite it?
:o
asurman jumping to his own conclusion without reading properly as you always did :)
my posts were a reply to people saying about the ut3 engine, licensing that will probably be $750k upwards for a commercial licence, considering the unreal 2 engine is still at $250k base plus $50k per platform license... i suggested tgea as its £1500 for a commercial license, and when you look at what some amateur torque coders have done with it in the videos i posted, youll see that its possible to get something comparable for a tiny fraction of the cost ...
however taking your response which is basically why start with a clean slate spending money on a updated engine and reqorking the client from base, lets just keep the current client and engine with its inherrent problems, source that if i recall only CoDi knows the full format of, an outdated engine that has some deep problems that what... near 10 years later, still has the fatal problems ... Sure lets keep with that plan, keep coders working with that, probably spending more $ in manhours updating the existing to something competetive, creating new models and content, then it would take overall to license a new current engine and work from there.
But i guess that you are the omnipotent and what you say must be taken as biblical and final ....
Asurmen Spec Op
22-02-09, 03:47
asurman jumping to his own conclusion without reading properly as you always did :)
my posts were a reply to people saying about the ut3 engine, licensing that will probably be $750k upwards for a commercial licence, considering the unreal 2 engine is still at $250k base plus $50k per platform license... i suggested tgea as its £1500 for a commercial license, and when you look at what some amateur torque coders have done with it in the videos i posted, youll see that its possible to get something comparable for a tiny fraction of the cost ...
however taking your response which is basically why start with a clean slate spending money on a updated engine and reqorking the client from base, lets just keep the current client and engine with its inherrent problems, source that if i recall only CoDi knows the full format of, an outdated engine that has some deep problems that what... near 10 years later, still has the fatal problems ... Sure lets keep with that plan, keep coders working with that, probably spending more $ in manhours updating the existing to something competetive, creating new models and content, then it would take overall to license a new current engine and work from there.
But i guess that you are the omnipotent and what you say must be taken as biblical and final ....
You're a loony good sir.
I'm sorry but I doubt KK even has a coder working on NC, let alone enough coders to port NC to a new engine. Sorry but I'm just being realistic.
But yes, I am biblical and final, you may call me God.
I must agree with Kozmos on his idea of a new engine. While the ut engine would be expensive, and updating the current engine would be a headache, Torque could offer some killer advantages over the current engine, and could also give us that graphics edge we need so badly. The gameplay is great, yeah, whatever, but we need some more eye candy. If you haven't noticed, Neocron has a lot of flat edges, and most modern games just don't anymore, also with a new engine we could have new things, maybe a new way for characters to pvp? Yeah would still be FPS but the combat style could be completely different.
oh god not the UT3 engine - its dire.
I say sell the rights off to Valve - they'll sort it out :P
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