View Full Version : Black Prophecy and Neocron.
JC_Denton2
21-02-08, 21:51
What's the logic KK is using so that they can build a new MMO (Black Prophecy) from the ground up but they can't rebuild Neocron to not be so buggy/outdated? I haven't been playing that long but this games technology seems very outdated to me, am I wrong?
I know this is a touchy subject with some of you so lets keep the discussion civilized shall we?
Hell-demon
21-02-08, 22:05
I've already expressed my views on BP in this thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=140624)
I think it's great KK are making something new, but fear we shall be neglected.
JC_Denton2
22-02-08, 00:39
Yeah I read that thread. I'm not bashing at all on Black Prophecy the screens look pretty sharp however there's not enough info on the game for me to make any opinions on it, but that's not the point of this thread. I'm just wondering what made KK say, "Hey we have Neocron an awesome property that needs a buttload of late hours poured into it but lets make a new game anyway!"
Apocalypsox
22-02-08, 01:04
They want to be expand into a different market, im sure. the Space shooter/simulator market is fairly popular these days, while the concept of NC is still fairly in the dark.
Re-coding a game's engine takes time. A hell of a lot of time, man-power, and resources.
KK aren't excactly the size of CCP are they?
What KK do have however - are concepts, and innovation. I still rank this game higher than almost any game I have ever played, and if they come up with an equally immersive concept for Black Prophecy, no doubt that will keep myself, and others playing and paying for that one too.
It's just a numbers thing. Judging by the amount of players, they definitely don't have enough money to hire more and more programmers to re-code/re-work an old game, that's had it's run. It doesn't make business sense. Not when they have a whole new game, with a whole new engine - to impress the world with once again.
I just hope BP gets what it deserves in terms of advertising and reviews - and even more so, I hope that Reakktor learn from the mistakes they have made with Neocron, and everything good about it too - and produce a truly exceptional game, that makes them rich.
One word of advice though, KK.
With Black Prophecy, keep your community informed, yeah? ;)
Bob Arctor
22-02-08, 02:57
Why rework an old, dying game rather than make a brand-spanking new one? Even in its hay-day Neocron was hardly the most succesful of MMO's, and every 'post-apoc FPS' type MMO since has failed. Not a sound investment, however much the community might love it.
Terror_Nonne
22-02-08, 08:40
me hate spacegames. :p :lol: :mad:
landofcake
22-02-08, 10:13
Dear KK,
Please make Black Prophecy's engine scale incredibly well across multiple CPU cores.
Yours sincerely,
landofcake
JC_Denton2
22-02-08, 10:36
Re-coding a game's engine takes time. A hell of a lot of time, man-power, and resources.
L0KI, so does making a new game from scratch.
L0KI, so does making a new game from scratch.
Did you even read the rest of my post?
I'll explain a little more...
ReaKKtor have already said that to fix the bugs and re-work this game, it would take an entire new net code. So, in essence, it would be the same as making a new game from scratch.
Why fix something that's had it's day - and had it's peak of popularity?
Why not move on to a new idea, a new engine, and story?
JC_Denton2
22-02-08, 11:56
Did you even read the rest of my post?
I'll explain a little more...
ReaKKtor have already said that to fix the bugs and re-work this game, it would take an entire new net code. So, in essence, it would be the same as making a new game from scratch.
Why fix something that's had it's day - and had it's peak of popularity?
Why not move on to a new idea, a new engine, and story?
I did read your post, did you read mine? Flame bait such as "did you read the rest of my post" is not keeping it civilized.
But anyway back to the topic, I'm trying to gauge how pessimistic the view of this game is from fans and devs, the outlook does not look so good.
KK doesn't realize it's concept is being stolen with the upcoming "Earthrise" MMO and will be struggling to compete with EVE Online, Jumpgate Evolution... bad marketing choice once again I guess, I hope the future proves I'm wrong though.
Doc Holliday
22-02-08, 13:38
I did read your post, did you read mine? Flame bait such as "did you read the rest of my post" is not keeping it civilized.
But anyway back to the topic, I'm trying to gauge how pessimistic the view of this game is from fans and devs, the outlook does not look so good.
you make me laugh. you first off make a request to keep it civil. then you start and ridicule what others are saying and accuse them of flame bait when in essence you are doing exactly that.
I'm hoping the Black Prohecy won't be anything like Eve-Online... but like Neocron in space, with beautiful graphics.
So with any luck it shouldn't be competing with them as such, but should be a PvP based game with WASD ship controls.
I'm sure that Neocron's devs have changed a great deal since the beginning, and that might mean the new devs are much more passionate about making a new game, rather than fixing an old one.
I know if I wanted to motivate a team of devs, giving them a concept and a relatively blank canvas would be the way I'd do it.
As for Denton - I'm not flaming, or flame-baiting. I'm contributing to an argument/debate that you started.
I'm sure that Neocron's devs have changed a great deal since the beginning, and that might mean the new devs are much more passionate about making a new game, rather than fixing an old one.
I know if I wanted to motivate a team of devs, giving them a concept and a relatively blank canvas would be the way I'd do it.
Now THATS thinking outside the box, which I 100% agree with. Its also depressing, but thats reality.
I for one won't be following KK down the road of a space game, not for me.
It's not KK i love, it's Neocron!!
I do however wish them every success with this new venture, make a few quid........... then build a Brand NEW Post Apoc game!
Having learnt what you have over the last several years it would be awsome.
How many times have i heard the word "Potential" and "Neocron" in the same sentence, The concept of this game was way ahead of it's time and when first launched it even had a cutting edge engine!
They could pull it off again, the MMO market is larger now and you can't compare a launch over 5 years ago into Post apoc territory with the players it would attract today. The MMO community are getting bored of WOW and it's clones tbh.
It would all have to be new! New cities, New World, New Mobs, etc. etc.
Don't call it Neocron 3 or even have any Neocron links ;)
Otherwise it could be tarnished by a reference to NC and as much as i love this game i gotta admit the MMO communities opinion on it would kill a new game before it was even released if linked to NC :(
Riddle, I see what you mean and I share your feeling about Neocron being a great fuckin game ... But I clearly do not agree with your vision of the game's potential though.
Neocron would never have been a successful game, even with great graphics, no bugs and errors, etc ... It's concept is simply the opposite of what the standard WoW casual player is waiting for in my opinion.
It's true that in a way it's concept IS ahead of its time and people can blame KK for bad support and everything but this game has to be the most innovative mmo ever ... it's still even more advanced than any other MMO to this day in my opinion.
What can we learn from this ?
I think that Neocron represents what the occidental / european vision of gaming has best to offer in terms of game universe / gameplay / innovation and community. I think we can be proud of the game we played and still play.
At the same time, you guys are the best witnesses of the huge commercial success of the asian / korean mmo concept, WoW being the best exemple. In fact about 9/10 of the market is based on this concept...
In this context, how could Neocron ever have been a success when it's totally in opposition with today's players expectations ?
On one hand we got a great game, NC, which failed, on the other we have ultra basic grind MMO games that work great ...
This clearly shows that there is a HUGE gap between "our" (Neocron players) expectations and the general expectations of the "MMO community".
Neocron would never have been a succes and never will, under another name, with new graphics etc ... Without selling it's soul and turning into yet another content based "xp bar" mmo ;)
I sincerelly hope Black Prophecy fails the same way as Neocron did, it will mean it's a great game ;)
Kinda ironic I agree :D
i hope BP rules the waves so they can focus on a new NC :D
Doc Holliday
22-02-08, 17:52
Riddle, I see what you mean and I share your feeling about Neocron being a great fuckin game ... But I clearly do not agree with your vision of the game's potential though.
Neocron would never have been a successful game, even with great graphics, no bugs and errors, etc ... It's concept is simply the opposite of what the standard WoW casual player is waiting for in my opinion.
It's true that in a way it's concept IS ahead of its time and people can blame KK for bad support and everything but this game has to be the most innovative mmo ever ... it's still even more advanced than any other MMO to this day in my opinion.
What can we learn from this ?
I think that Neocron represents what the occidental / european vision of gaming has best to offer in terms of game universe / gameplay / innovation and community. I think we can be proud of the game we played and still play.
At the same time, you guys are the best witnesses of the huge commercial success of the asian / korean mmo concept, WoW being the best exemple. In fact about 9/10 of the market is based on this concept...
In this context, how could Neocron ever have been a success when it's totally in opposition with today's players expectations ?
On one hand we got a great game, NC, which failed, on the other we have ultra basic grind MMO games that work great ...
This clearly shows that there is a HUGE gap between "our" (Neocron players) expectations and the general expectations of the "MMO community".
Neocron would never have been a succes and never will, under another name, with new graphics etc ... Without selling it's soul and turning into yet another content based "xp bar" mmo ;)
I sincerelly hope Black Prophecy fails the same way as Neocron did, it will mean it's a great game ;)
Kinda ironic I agree :D
your entitled to your opinion and all that but i think its bollocks what you just wrote. im not flaming but having witnessed first hand alot of what has happened to make and break this game i think it would have a chance if given enough investment. maybe not in its current guise and maybe not in evo 2.9 etc but the concept if programmed right and then marketed right can have mass appeal. the fact is the damage has been done to this game in its home market (europe) and its takeing KK alot to fix that and it started with the initial launch of the game when CDV fucked it all up.
Why do you think Black Prophecy has been so important. Its easier to start from scratch like what has already been said. they have a blank canvas on which to write.
@ aenema
If you took a moment to look around various MMO communities, you'd see that they were screaming out for an MMO without the typical 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 4 to heal, 2, 2, 3 fighting system.
I have to completely disagree with you. As Doc rightly says, CDV did an appalling job of advertising this game, and a poor PR job.
I'm optimistic about Black Prophecy, and i do like the company, ReaKKtor.
If only they gave their community more updates. It's nice to feel as though our thoughts matter.
Sorry L0KI but I do not think you are right, look at the numbers of subscribers of WoW or Lineage, and don't forget the main MMO's the players are waiting for : Aion, Warhammer ... Do you see complex gameplay and innovations ?
I agree with you however that some underlying small mmo communities scream for new concepts and intelligent gameplay, but this is not shared by the whole mmo players market.
You have to be very careful in the way you describe which scale you are refering to, (and actually I might have been a bit unclear too)
Why ? Simply because for the mmo "community", in a global way, does not exist. So when I say that players don't care for innovation and such, it's because a majority doesn't ... but it doesn't mean that there is no market for it ;)
I think that blizzard was brillantly successful in their market analysis and they managed to create a game that can suit multiple marketing profiles.
I do no think they chose the asian type concept at random. However they emphasized on the content side contrary to their competitors.
That leaves us with players that expect a perpetual renewal of the game content and that are expecting for a rewarding and productive gameplay time.
I can't say if BP will be succesful or not but it depends on the adequation of its gameplay elements, and the players it's targeting.
JC_Denton2
22-02-08, 19:38
you make me laugh. you first off make a request to keep it civil. then you start and ridicule what others are saying and accuse them of flame bait when in essence you are doing exactly that.
Excuse me sir, could you please stay on topic? No where in any of my posts did I ridicule anyone, maybe I defended myself in the most polite manner possible, but I definitely didn't mean to hurt any feelwingz. :angel: If you'd wish to discuss this further please send me a PM.
But glad I could make you lawl.
Lawl enforcer. Harharhar.
ANYWAY!
I just see A LOT of assumptions being made and no official word on the state of Neocron and any updates just ambiguous information on a new game and the promise of "something" in the future for Neocron. I know there have been a few posts like this one but maybe if we make enough noise someone with throw us a bone.
Hell-demon
22-02-08, 19:55
I think KK will favor Black Prophecy over Neocron.
Why pump money and resorces into this old game when you can pump it into a new project?
specranator
22-02-08, 20:02
they always said it would be easier to just make a new game instead of re-working neocron, and thats what they did it looks like.
dont forget, they have a business to run with the goal of making $$ and spending time redevoloping a 7 year old game just isnt cash efficient.
what I was wondering is how many of the dev team working on BP are original neocron dev's. im hoping the majority are so we can see something similiar to neocron with a new twist.
Clive tombstone
23-02-08, 03:23
I forget, is Fallen earth still a no-no to talk about here on the boards? I just got back from GDC and I managed to get to play an early build of FA, and I gotta say, it has the engine that neocron SHOULD have.
Its also funny that, I managed to talk to the lead developer, and asked him about what he thought about neocron. Of course, to my amusement, he said they tried to play it, but they wouldn't take the check in order to start the game apperantly =P. I told them that KK started Paypal so they may give it anouther shot some time. Who knows.
Anyways, my point being, is that, BP is most likely going to be strictly a space shooter, with no ties to neocron what so ever (besides the obviously similar tone in both game tittles). It IS increasingly unfortunate also that neocron seems to fall behind, but as we've witnessed in the years passed, this is inevitable, especially with the way this game has been handled.
Even with this all said and done, I still have to say, neocron has been probably THE best "meh-mor-peg-gur" experience Ive ever had (in terms of originality of concept, PVP, and community), and nothing could change my opinion of that. All I can do now is pray to whatever dark elder god thats out there that NC will make a huge comeback in a similarly themed incarnation by the same (or closely related developer) somewhere in the near future. That or just wait for the WH40k mmo =P.
...
Go Space marines! :D
I forget, is Fallen earth still a no-no to talk about here on the boards?
The only game we had a problem with here on the forums was FoMK. Even that was only a temporary situation and was only because they were playing silly games (much good it did them in the end).
N
Hell-demon
23-02-08, 14:02
I remember that.
Good times :D
Now THATS thinking outside the box, which I 100% agree with. Its also depressing, but thats reality.
Yup it must suck ass trying to rebuild an old crappy game. I hope black prophecy is an amazing game so we can forget about neocron.
EDIT: a cool idea from KK would be to discount Subscriptions to players who have active NC subs too.
Clive tombstone
24-02-08, 08:23
is it a possibility that KK is giving up on this genre in particular due to the fact that other, more well funded groups are moving in on this area of gaming niche, while KK doesn't seem to have the necessary components to keep up instead? The end result being it jumping ship to a new venue with a so called fresh start in Black Prof?
Nytewolf2k7
24-02-08, 08:48
Maybe BP is a plot to get more money so they can filter it into NC? Who knows...
That or just wait for the WH40k mmo =P.
...
Go Space marines! :D Don't even get me fecking started on that one! I may quite possibly be in love with the WH40k Universe (call me sad :p). Quite possibly the darkest and most grim Universe I have ever read about. And those novels.... :lol:
No matan. You're right. WH40K mmo would be so awesome. i'd be lost at my computer for days.
Clive tombstone
24-02-08, 21:08
Dude, Id want to be a guardsman (I know, sounds crazy doesn't it?) Simply because ID like to rise the ranks, become a commissar, and get to command a group of cannon fodder and maybe a leamon Russ while where at it^^. CALL IN THE BANEBLADE! *grins* Still, the holy arm of the emperor (space marines) are still badass I think. Orks commin in close second cuz I like soccer hooligans =P
I think that Neocron that require a new engine, it's a freaking good game... those ,whom, think that the MMO community are resumed to WoW, Lineage are damn wrong! those games are so much carebear and XP grind that make these games so borring! the subscriber are indeed amazing for those games but that doesn't mean success (financially impressive) but they sucks in my opinion. Fallen Earth seems to be a god with good graphics i would give a try on it but... it doesn't attract me at all... there were good games that i used to play non of them were known! but the games were great!!! better than the successful games!!!
Clive tombstone
24-02-08, 23:15
I think that Neocron that require a new engine, it's a freaking good game... those ,whom, think that the MMO community are resumed to WoW, Lineage are damn wrong! those games are so much carebear and XP grind that make these games so borring! the subscriber are indeed amazing for those games but that doesn't mean success (financially impressive) but they sucks in my opinion. Fallen Earth seems to be a god with good graphics i would give a try on it but... it doesn't attract me at all... there were good games that i used to play non of them were known! but the games were great!!! better than the successful games!!!
the trick with fallen earth right now is that theyre still building the game world right now. From what I've seen though, the spots that are "completed" are pretty interesting, with a lot to give in terms of dynamic combat fields (spots to take cover/gain vantage points/hiding spots). There WILL be hightech areas like in neocron (but probably not near the same style), as most of the game in fact takes place in the arizona area (more specifically, the grand canyon).
William Antrim
24-02-08, 23:54
Dude, Id want to be a guardsman (I know, sounds crazy doesn't it?) Simply because ID like to rise the ranks, become a commissar, and get to command a group of cannon fodder and maybe a leamon Russ while where at it^^. CALL IN THE BANEBLADE! *grins* Still, the holy arm of the emperor (space marines) are still badass I think. Orks commin in close second cuz I like soccer hooligans =P
Grey Knights. Nuff said.
The hardest bunch of people in the entire Warhammer universe. I would want to be one of those guys, screw the tanks.
Sorry L0KI but I do not think you are right, look at the numbers of subscribers of WoW or Lineage, and don't forget the main MMO's the players are waiting for : Aion, Warhammer ... Do you see complex gameplay and innovations ?
I agree with you however that some underlying small mmo communities scream for new concepts and intelligent gameplay, but this is not shared by the whole mmo players market.
You have to be very careful in the way you describe which scale you are refering to, (and actually I might have been a bit unclear too)
Why ? Simply because for the mmo "community", in a global way, does not exist. So when I say that players don't care for innovation and such, it's because a majority doesn't ... but it doesn't mean that there is no market for it ;)
We are the MMO community!
What WoW did successfully, is captured the monthly subscriptions courtesy of the parents of 12 year olds that didn't, and probably don't know that other MMO's even exist. That's what fantastic marketing can do for you, I guess.
What I'm talking about are websites like onrpg, mmorpg.com, mmosite... If you take a look through the 'MMORPG Requests' forums - which is a forum for other players to specifically to request a new game to play, a suprisingly large amount of people are crying out for something different.
You may also be forgetting that 'Warcraft' - and everything that it brought, has been around for years. It's a name that people associate elves and orcs with, and the majority of PC gamers have at least tried one of the earlier games.
Neocron came from nowhere, had next to no marketing and attracted some of the best and most intelligent gamers I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.
So - my point... We are the MMO community - at least, we are the MMO community I'd LIKE to spend hours of my week gaming with. Not just a random selection of thousands of kids with mum's credit cards that bought into the mass marketed - excessively colourful fan-favourite that is World of Warcraft.
Same applies to Warhammer, it's a name we're all aware of, and will be heavily marketed due to massive financial backing...
Check the videos on youtube... It's just another WoW, with the addition of Space Marines...
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