View Full Version : Clip Situation
Ok well clipping has made the game unenjoyable for me personally, and it really is rediculous.
KK, are you working on some kind of fix for this at all? I'm sick to death of it...
/signed
<<<installing wow now :mad:
Apocalypsox
26-01-08, 20:01
They cant do anything about it except nerf everyones speed.
Unless they rewrite the engine/use a new one.
They cant do anything about it except nerf everyones speed.
Unless they rewrite the engine/use a new one.
Then if thats a fix, it should be done imo
Apocalypsox
26-01-08, 20:05
You think they can afford that with how many people sub? O_o
If it happens, it will have to be after BP is a hit and they make a couple million
landofcake
26-01-08, 20:08
I think you'll just have the face the fact that clipping will NOT be fixed.
Overhauling the netcode is (i assume) a fundamental rewrite of the engine, and the likelyhood of KK doing that is slim to none, and would also mean that we would probably not recieve any other updates at all during this time.
(this is all just my guess though)
They cant do anything about it except nerf everyones speed.
For the 100th time, that won't fix the poor clipping at all, although it may admittedly make people easier to kill, but for largley unrelated reasons.
Overhauling the netcode is (i assume) a fundamental rewrite of the engine, and the likelyhood of KK doing that is slim to none, and would also mean that we would probably not recieve any other updates at all during this time.
Yah is this the response for everything here? new engine needed to fix the netcode?
The sad fact is that this problem wasn't around prior to 2.2 being released, go figure. No overhaul needed then eh?
Yah is this the response for everything here? new engine needed to fix the netcode?
The sad fact is that this problem wasn't around prior to 2.2 being released, go figure. No overhaul needed then eh?
Yes it was actually. Was around plenty before 2.2/ But people had other, bigger whines so this one didn't get heard as much.
Yes it was actually. Was around plenty before 2.2/ But people had other, bigger whines so this one didn't get heard as much.
Maybe it was but no where as bad as it was now, its unplayable. I wish I could go back to 2.1 and compare :/
i seriuosly dont find it to be much of a problem. people clip sure but i can follow and shoot them still its not really that big a deal for me.
landofcake
26-01-08, 21:45
I don't think it's the case that it wasn't around before 2.2, more that people didn't abuse it as flagrantly as they do now.
it was around before 2.2 but not nearly as much as it is today. nowadays you don't even have to want to clip to do it, everyone does, just fight at battledome for instance and see your target clip into any small hill there is and vice versa, wasnt the case at all in 2.1
Nytewolf2k7
27-01-08, 05:33
With so few players now, than back then, clipping might be more noticeable, I dunno, I'm no expert.
Bob Arctor
27-01-08, 06:33
Slap me in the balls and call me a thicky; but what's meant by clipping problems?
Slap me in the balls and call me a thicky; but what's meant by clipping problems?
it means people running through corners (not around them) or through mountains instead of going up on them. it can also lead to people simply teleporting around when running circles around objects aka clipwhoring :p
it was around before 2.2 but not nearly as much as it is today. nowadays you don't even have to want to clip to do it, everyone does, just fight at battledome for instance and see your target clip into any small hill there is and vice versa, wasnt the case at all in 2.1
Actually, hilsl have always been horrific. I remember plenty of times even back in 2.0 being unable to see somebody who was shooting me as they ran up and down the same hill over and over again - those are some of my earliest pvp memories actually. Indoor clipping has actually improved in 2.2 I think. It's just a combination of game changes make clipping through objects more viable in 2.2, combined with the fact that everybody does it.
Actually, hilsl have always been horrific. I remember plenty of times even back in 2.0 being unable to see somebody who was shooting me as they ran up and down the same hill over and over again - those are some of my earliest pvp memories actually. Indoor clipping has actually improved in 2.2 I think. It's just a combination of game changes make clipping through objects more viable in 2.2, combined with the fact that everybody does it.
I don't think the game really cares if someones clipping inside or out, the fact is that it happens where ever you are, if you mean it or not.
Since all my time PvP'ing in 2.0 and 2.1, the only real clip situations I ever got was at MB by the lift shaft, and even then it wasn't THAT bad.
Yah sometimes you would lose someone going up a hill for a second in the wastes but it still wasnt THAT bad, it was still playable and the people that only ever did it, did it on purpose if they could.
Now you can't even run in plaza 1 without clipping through a wall.
Have you seen a kami drone lately? You don't see them until they stop dead, and if you do see one in flight, they're actually miles infront of what yopu see it to be, its just the model catching up.
It makes fair fights, unfair.
landofcake
27-01-08, 16:03
I don't think the game really cares if someones clipping inside or out, the fact is that it happens where ever you are, if you mean it or not.
Since all my time PvP'ing in 2.0 and 2.1, the only real clip situations I ever got was at MB by the lift shaft, and even then it wasn't THAT bad.
Yah sometimes you would lose someone going up a hill for a second in the wastes but it still wasnt THAT bad, it was still playable and the people that only ever did it, did it on purpose if they could.
Now you can't even run in plaza 1 without clipping through a wall.
Have you seen a kami drone lately? You don't see them until they stop dead, and if you do see one in flight, they're actually miles infront of what yopu see it to be, its just the model catching up.
It makes fair fights, unfair.
A classic one at the moment is someone who runs away from the Plaza 2 zoneline into the centre of Plaza 2, while being shot at, and runs left into where the shops are and back into the chemist (or whatever it is), you'll see them dissapear through the wall ...
I don't think the game really cares if someones clipping inside or out, the fact is that it happens where ever you are, if you mean it or not. Actually it does - the game is very loathe to clip you through internal scenery. Try it and watch - the problems you get into with inside scenery is that the game doesn't believe that somebody actually got around the wall, and forces them to stay the wrong side of it. I can produce some videos demonstrating this if needs be. Indoor clipping is pretty good, however this is let down by poor update rate.
Yah sometimes you would lose someone going up a hill for a second in the wastes but it still wasnt THAT bad, it was still playable and the people that only ever did it, did it on purpose if they could. Always happened, someimes really bad. Need I remember you of the "GR dance" where a PPU would run around an op GR, clipping constantly while everybody tried to kill them? Remember how thats as old as NC2? Nothings changed, its just that tanks join in now too and APUs (the dominant op war class of the past) now need LoS and a reticle.
Have you seen a kami drone lately? You don't see them until they stop dead, and if you do see one in flight, they're actually miles infront of what yopu see it to be, its just the model catching up.
A: that is lag, not clipping. Its a problem, a really bad problem, but its nothing to do with clipping. A lot of the problems people blame on clipping are in fact nothing to do with it, but to do with other shortcomings of the netcode. B: ever since they removed 1-hit-kill protection, kamis have been a nightmare in that respect. Never going to go away unless they sort out the horrendous lag.
It makes fair fights, unfair.[/QUOTE]
i think its lag more then clipping. i get an average of 50-60 ping and i almost never see people clipping and when i do i can usualy follow them.
there was a time long ago when i had a bad connection and people where going thro hill and walls way more back then.
I've seen a 0/2 clip before so anything is possible not really anything to do with speed. All speed does it make them clip further, it doesn't give you the ability to clip. If the netcode was worked so that the server wouldnt allow players to "clip" then we'd have no problem but the player is trying to catch up. so instead of a player going round a corner, he goes straight through it.
But ask yourself, is the alternative any better? The player would have to move double time to catch up with themselves.
I'm not sure if any of the fundamentals have changed or not in regards to clipping before and after 2.2, but the clipping now seems to be absolutely worse, making things, at times , unbearable to play. I don't think speed is a factor, as Ive seen people simply walk around and object, reversing direction once in a while, thus enabling himself to completely clip through it.
Didn't Nidhog say that they had to change something in regards to client side position checks in order to stop people from exploiting or something? Or am I thinking of something else?
Didn't Nidhog say that they had to change something in regards to client side position checks in order to stop people from exploiting or something? Or am I thinking of something else?
I think I read that too, so yeah.
They changed something about the way spells work.
Then you could suddenly runcast most spells and people started to use the ressurection exploits.
And instead of reversing the whole thing they just broke the netcode to fix said casting issues.
:rolleyes:
Didn't Nidhog say that they had to change something in regards to client side position checks in order to stop people from exploiting or something? Or am I thinking of something else?
No sure it was Nidhogg, but yes, that was said. Was referring to the changes between NC1 and NC2 however. (Watch the videos of NC1. No clipping through hills, good tracking. NC2 has never been like that)
Ishmael/Mystic
28-01-08, 13:28
You think they can afford that with how many people sub? O_o
If it happens, it will have to be after BP is a hit and they make a couple million
They can't afford to fix NC but they can afford to make a completely new game??
They can't afford to fix NC but they can afford to make a completely new game??
Money to make Black Prophecy comes from 10Tacle, who presumably get it from loans/investment/money earned from previous 10T games. 10T I dare say will be quite insistent that the money they funnel into KK goes into making the new, hopefully blockbusting MMO, rather than doing more to a game that barley covers its own operating costs and is not going to generate significant revenue ever.
They can't afford to fix NC but they can afford to make a completely new game??
Where would you invest a fuckload of money?
a) Neocron, a 5 year old niche game that has an average population of 100 people playing
b) Black Prophecy, a brand new space MMORPG where you have a pretty good chance to get a proper population of new players
Choose one.
/edit
And on topic,
i'm probably logging in once a week, just because i can't be arsed with the shitty netcode anymore. It's taking all the fun out of NC.
Apocalypsox
28-01-08, 17:40
Where would you invest a fuckload of money?
a) Neocron, a 5 year old niche game that has an average population of 100 people playing
b) Black Prophecy, a brand new space MMORPG where you have a pretty good chance to get a proper population of new players
Yeah but something else to think about is the sheer numbers NC had in its golden days. 600 people on Saturn, close to the same on Uranus, hell close to the same everywhere. Thats quite a few people.
Id hope im right in thinking that after they make some money from Black Prophecy they will funnel money back into NC, hopefully giving us a new engine to work from.
Ishmael/Mystic
28-01-08, 18:58
Where would you invest a fuckload of money?
a) Neocron, a 5 year old niche game that has an average population of 100 people playing
b) Black Prophecy, a brand new space MMORPG where you have a pretty good chance to get a proper population of new players
Choose one.
/edit
And on topic,
i'm probably logging in once a week, just because i can't be arsed with the shitty netcode anymore. It's taking all the fun out of NC.
Considering there is already plently of space mmo's out there Eve and that new one.. jumpgate, and theres nothing like NC which used to have to large player base, i'd spend it updating NC and geting back the large player base.
Where would you invest a fuckload of money?
a) Neocron, a 5 year old niche game that has an average population of 100 people playing
b) Black Prophecy, a brand new space MMORPG where you have a pretty good chance to get a proper population of new players
Choose one.
/edit
And on topic,
i'm probably logging in once a week, just because i can't be arsed with the shitty netcode anymore. It's taking all the fun out of NC.
I can totally see where your coming from altho mystic does put forward a good point. There are already numberous other space mmo's out there whereas the market for cyberpunk mmorpg's is left right open.... i do hope that some of the profits if any do go towards developing NC as apoc said :)
its too bad. nc could have been one of the bigger mmos out there if it was done correctly :(
but anywayz kk pls do something...ANYTHING to at all help the clipping =0
Plz sort it, fighting at tristar was nearly impossible lol
Apocalypsox
28-01-08, 20:20
KK should make NC playable, then start some viral advertising :D
Seems to work pretty good these days.
Something to the effect of "Reagent is watching you..." With a pic of the reagent PEPA in the background :lol:
Keep this on topic guys, this is about clipping NOT how KK should spend their money :P
If Neocron is still supported by Reakktor, (They still run the servers and give support) then I as customer would expect some kind of updates and fixes for what I pay for.
Yes, KK are moving on to a different market, but they are still in the FPS Post Apoc Cyberpunk market too.
And yes, there are newer games of similar genre becoming available within the next year or so.
I want to see some progress with Neocron, and I also want to be able to play the game with the same standards as I used to, only 1 year ago. Clipping affects the gameplay for all, in PvE and PvP.
The fact it was already in the game before 2.2 is plausable but that has nothing to do with the fact that the current state of the clip sit is, in my opinion, unplayable.
I would love to know how many more non-content patches there will be from now till the end.
I don't want to wait for something that will never come.
And I also don't want this to drag out like a seal's ass.
Considering there is already plently of space mmo's out there Eve and that new one.. jumpgate, and theres nothing like NC which used to have to large player base, i'd spend it updating NC and geting back the large player base.
Be real, please.
People are not going to flood to join a five-year-old game, of which almost all the press and word of mouth is about how bad it is, not matter what KK do to the game. Certainly not to the extent you can expect to make back the 1 million + that is probably being pumped into this. We can of course hope for some kind of spiritual successor to Neocron one day. Oh, and it ISN'T KK's money to decide how to spend (except presumably what they get from NC subscriptions) - its 10Tacle (KK's owner and funder) that is paying for a new game to be made. How would you feel if you paid a mechanic to fix your car, and found out that he'd been using 20% of what you paid him to soup up his at the same time...
The other thing to realise is that competion can actually be very good for your business. Creative made hard drive MP3 players for years, but I bet they've sold more of theirs since the iPod came out. How many more people are interested in Warhammer Online simply because WoW exists?
As for the issue at the start of this thread. Netcode sucks, yes. This isn't new though - it always has done. Its just that now crazy overpowered monks have gone (and a few other changes), its become the most apparent big problem. However, a runspeed nerf, or adressing "clipping" alone will not come even close to dealing with it. I can't help but feel that pushing up NC's bandwidth usage, through more regular and perhaps detailed updates could help though, seeing as the game is still playble over 56k.
As for the issue at the start of this thread. Netcode sucks, yes. This isn't new though - it always has done. Its just that now crazy overpowered monks have gone (and a few other changes), its become the most apparent big problem. However, a runspeed nerf, or adressing "clipping" alone will not come even close to dealing with it. I can't help but feel that pushing up NC's bandwidth usage, through more regular and perhaps detailed updates could help though, seeing as the game is still playble over 56k.
This is just plain untrue. Even Nidd himself has said that due to cheating things that used to be only cliantside are now bounced back and forth between the server and cliant resulting in way more clipping.
People didn't just fail to notice because op fights were taken over by apu/ppu teams.
That being said, I'm not sure what would be best done to adress said clipping but it would sure as hell be nice to see more kk posts in these forums. At the very least it would be nice to hear what you are planning for the next patch and what the eta on said patch is.
This is just plain untrue. Even Nidd himself has said that due to cheating things that used to be only cliantside are now bounced back and forth between the server and cliant resulting in way more clipping.
People didn't just fail to notice because op fights were taken over by apu/ppu teams.
That being said, I'm not sure what would be best done to adress said clipping but it would sure as hell be nice to see more kk posts in these forums. At the very least it would be nice to hear what you are planning for the next patch and what the eta on said patch is.
The changes that are being referred to were between NC1 and NC2 - the comment you refer to was made before 2.2 was even released.
Netcode complaints are NOT new.
Poor clipping is NOT new.
Clip whoring (take it from somebody who did it) is NOT new.
(Back in 2.1 when MB-zoneline fighting was cool, I could clip so bad I would fight 4 people being hit once or twice by just running in circles around the lift shaft. Altough a fair part of this problem is actually lag rather than clipping...
This does not mean that these things are a problem, but poor clipping was not introduced by 2.2. Nerfing runspeed will barely make a difference to the clipping (although it may improve your chances of killing people for a few unrelated reasons.)
Does the netcode need drastically improving before the game can live up to these claims of "great PvP" - hell yes, but then I'd argue that the whole combat system would need shaping up before that.
Does the netcode need drastically improving before the game can live up to these claims of "great PvP" - hell yes, but then I'd argue that the whole combat system would need shaping up before that.
If there is a way to fix netcode, that can be implemented easily ad globally, then there is simply no reason not to. NC is far from dead, as recent server populations indicate.
The "whole combat system" is just fine as it is. It's what keeps NCs heart ticking. Fix small things first so that things like clipping do not exist anymore, and then we can see what's needed. A very big part of NC pvp is affected by netlag.
The changes that are being referred to were between NC1 and NC2 - the comment you refer to was made before 2.2 was even released.
Netcode complaints are NOT new.
Poor clipping is NOT new.
Clip whoring (take it from somebody who did it) is NOT new.
(Back in 2.1 when MB-zoneline fighting was cool, I could clip so bad I would fight 4 people being hit once or twice by just running in circles around the lift shaft. Altough a fair part of this problem is actually lag rather than clipping...
This does not mean that these things are a problem, but poor clipping was not introduced by 2.2. Nerfing runspeed will barely make a difference to the clipping (although it may improve your chances of killing people for a few unrelated reasons.)
Okay, then please define:
(1)Neocron Lag
(2)Neocron Clip
By what your saying is painting a pretty picture in my head that they are exactly the same thing.
The Americans who play NC, still, and have always got a ping of 120+, yet they used to play the game fine, from what I can tell. No complaints of lag.
Does the netcode need drastically improving before the game can live up to these claims of "great PvP" - hell yes, but then I'd argue that the whole combat system would need shaping up before that.
I dissagree at the last part. I would rather PvP in 2.1 or before, but if the combat system currently in place is fine IF there was no chance of getting patched back. But thats another story...
had a little taste of clipping tonight yes it is really annoying when someone u almost killed starts clipping gets a ppu heal and blah.
It is something that needs to be fixed people who know how to clip get a huge advantage over those who either dunno how or dont want to.
some people will do anything to win but clipping should not be an option.
Exactly the reason why I am getting disgusted of the whole mess.
If you want to really understand the extent of this problem, just take a look in rockshore OP. There are no more OP fights. It's just an endless carousel around buildings. Once the supposed "veterans" go out of UG fully ppu buffed of course and mostly tanks, they start running around they traders building in that OP. It's very funny, just watch it.
Fighting in OPs as we used to know is practically over.
thats to sad and i dont suppose peopel will actually agree not to do it , since most people will take any advantage they can get fair or not :rolleyes:
Why do you think, im saying its only a handfull of people left, fighting like we used to fight Lore? None of the new(bies) even know how to fight anymore. All they do is join the carusel and exploit speed/drugs
Why do you think, im saying its only a handfull of people left, fighting like we used to fight Lore? None of the new(bies) even know how to fight anymore. All they do is join the carusel and exploit speed/drugs
IMO drugs are there to be used... i personally dont use em but dont see why others shouldnt... Its generally the Clipping + PPU that destroys the fights... ooo, low hp ill start clipping and get me a Holy Heal ftw. Im at the point where i dont really care anymore when people start clipping as i just class it as stealth nowadays.
Ive choose not to fight in p2 anymore due to all this crap :(
Wait until you see what is happening in OP wars. At least p2 was never meant of being the core value of neocron gameplay. But OP wars is, and we manage (with a generous aid from KK of course) to blue even that. Well good luck with the game now...
Speed cap is the only solution afaik
Wait until you see what is happening in OP wars. At least p2 was never meant of being the core value of neocron gameplay. But OP wars is, and we manage (with a generous aid from KK of course) to blue even that. Well good luck with the game now...
Speed cap is the only solution afaik
The last op wars ive been to were at rockshore and sieger. All that seems to happen is they get to low HP and clip round the shop thing in rockshore, or round the hackterm and the big spike thing at sieger.
Ive seen enough clipping to last me a lifetime and atm i dont even consider logging in on my pvp chars anymore. :mad:
Lifewaster
01-02-08, 16:31
thats to sad and i dont suppose people will actually agree not to do it , since most people will take any advantage they can get fair or not :rolleyes:
I wonder maybe if we take a closer look at the root causes of the symptom , (why do ppl resort to this) then perhaps there can be a better solution found.
So there can be other factors causing this syndrome ,that might be more easily fixable (instead of run-speed cap)
Lets pose this question:
How do you encourage ppl to "stay and fight to the death" instead of "clip or die" when they are targeted.
A simplistic answer is to reduce the speed at which they die, thus encouraging them to remain in the fight, and try to inflict as much dmg for their side before they die.
So how do you give non-clippers more defense, without making it even harder to kill clippers?
One theory is to reduce heal/shield/armor/con effects while moving , and boost heal/shield/armor/con effects when stationary.
This may sound crazy, but bear in mind this system already exists to a degree for offensive power, where stationary/crouched runners have faster/easier aim-locks...maybe this could be tweaked also, to give stationary runners higher Dmg output (aside from aim) also.
Other possibilities lie with adjusting PPUs again, making shields/heals last longer when crouched like before, reducing the effect of HAB on non-PPUS/etc ....with a view to encouraging ppl to stay in the fight longer.
Anyway , regarding all this, the heal is probably the easiest one to tweak, the game already has this mechanism in the case of research/constuction where the process is halted while the runner is moving.....so this could be a fairly easy implementation to simply make heals stop ticking when moving and see how things work out, then adjust also the shields/resists if it looks necessary.
(this would also nerf stealthers slightly, but maybe not a bad thing also)
IMO drugs are there to be used... i personally dont use em but dont see why others shouldnt... Its generally the Clipping + PPU that destroys the fights... ooo, low hp ill start clipping and get me a Holy Heal ftw. Im at the point where i dont really care anymore when people start clipping as i just class it as stealth nowadays
i agree with that. Drugs ,who cares really, u can beat a drugged up guy if u hit better then he do, but clipping there is not a whole lot u can do about this only thing i can think of is use AOE. The drugs give an advantage true but an advantage u can beat , not so with clipping.
Puposely clipping is tbh very lame and if u have to resort to it ,well u are less skilled then the person ur fighting because without it u would be dead ;)
William Antrim
01-02-08, 17:11
Lets pose this question:
How do you encourage ppl to "stay and fight to the death" instead of "clip or die" when they are targeted.
Love the suggestion but to be fair, from experience most of the players who are left in nc will run/clip/zone when they get to half health, some even do it as soon as they get shot!
This is the (what now -5th?) thread on the subject. It needs addressing soon as it is killing what is left of the game.
It needs addressing soon as it is killing what is left of the game.
Dont think anything else needs to be said. That says it all :(
Dont think anything else needs to be said. That says it all :(
Agree 100% but then what would you all talk about here on the forums :angel:
Doc Holliday
01-02-08, 19:27
:lol:
Agree 100% but then what would you all talk about here on the forums :angel:
LOL.
probably what is happening with the next patch? thats always a classic. or whine about something that was whined about being nerfed and then got nerfed and now they want it back?
in short
BRING BACK PARA!! :eek: 8| :wtf: :( :mad:
What is this clipping people are talking about? If it is not related to lag how can the server confuse your location? Obviously some lag has to be involved right?
I personally haven't noticed any kind of problem yet. I have a fast graphics card and a killer nic card. lag is almost nonexistent for me in this game. I have yet to see anyone "clip" yet.
What is this clipping people are talking about? If it is not related to lag how can the server confuse your location? Obviously some lag has to be involved right?
I personally haven't noticed any kind of problem yet. I have a fast graphics card and a killer nic card. lag is almost nonexistent for me in this game. I have yet to see anyone "clip" yet.
I run 2x SLI'd 8800's GTX cards. I experience clipping the same as everyone else.
Your system spec doesn't alter or affect the clipping issue in any way.
Do a forum search on 'Clipping' and you will find out exactly what it is and what causes it. It's been covered a million times over.
Give the guy a break. He only registed this month.
As for the clipping, you will feel the clipping, when you participate in large OP fights outside in the open. In there, you will see people runing and dissapearing in your very own eyes, inside hills, walls... Sometimes, people reffer to clipping as the effect you get when you have very low fps, in which case you lose track of movement. But its not that
Give the guy a break. He only registed this month.
I wasn't aware I was giving him a hard time.
Plus, does it matter when someone registered?
If you look at my last response to one of his posts - I was politely answering his question.
I answer each post in it's own merit.
I run 2x SLI'd 8800's GTX cards. I experience clipping the same as everyone else.
Your system spec doesn't alter or affect the clipping issue in any way.
Do a forum search on 'Clipping' and you will find out exactly what it is and what causes it. It's been covered a million times over.
Not to sound like a smart ass, but what does running 2x SLIed 8800 GTX cards have to do with anything? If the game code doesn't support SLI your setup could have a million graphics cards in it and it wouldn't affect anything.
I'm asking if this is an issue with the server code or with the tcp stack of windows or with the com code. If it is not an lag issue then what is it? Clipping that causes the graphics card not to show where someone is, is usually a latency issue, which is related to your connection.
While I may be a newbie in this game, I've been in the computer business for 20 years and have played computer games for 30. I used to be a hacker before it meant what it does today. I know how hardware and software gets affected.
What is this clipping people are talking about? If it is not related to lag how can the server confuse your location? Obviously some lag has to be involved right?
I personally haven't noticed any kind of problem yet. I have a fast graphics card and a killer nic card. lag is almost nonexistent for me in this game. I have yet to see anyone "clip" yet.
The way i see it is its not necessarily "lag", its more to do with the frequency of position updates.
In my opinion, it was perfectly formed to the old version of the game because it updated enough for the runspeed when the runspeed cap was inplace. But now thats changed, the speed in hich people run at now has changed but the update rate hasn't.
No one from the "public" really know what exactly is causing this, and neither do the devs it seems. This topic is just a massive mix of opinions and intelligent guess work.
Now, clip can't really be explained, we because it varies from situations and opinions.
My clip description is:
Any subtle movements in a small flat space with a high runspeed causes "warping". Where the model moves very fast to the newest updated location, and because this movement is very fast, its very hard to hit someone. ("good" PPUS's rezzing for example)
This is noticable with everyone with runspeed faster then runspeed cap in 2.1 and below.
Running round corners or running on hills with a high runspeed causes "clip" where the model would be seen to run through the corner/building/hill and become untargetable for following persons. In most cases the hitbox is totally untargetable.
This is noticable with everyone with runspeed faster then runspeed cap in 2.1 and below.
Deliberate offenders of this in all pvp situations imaginable are called "clippers". They run round a building or a UG when they are low on health, and because they are not targetable, they do this until they are at a reasonable amount of health to pvp again.
This is really a rediculous way to pvp. Whether you agree with my opinions or not, really doesnt matter because I'm sure that all skilled pvp'ers would agree with me that this needs to be fixed.
And like Jini said, I also agree that running around as part of a carousel really isn't an honourable way to pvp. You lose my respect.
I'm asking if this is an issue with the server code or with the tcp stack of windows or with the com code. If it is not an lag issue then what is it? Clipping that causes the graphics card not to show where someone is, is usually a latency issue, which is related to your connection.
We/I can't answer these questions, since we are not the makers of this game. We might suspect many things, but it's speculations.
I for instance I was having problems for 6 months and more while running the game for more than one hour, GPU was losing timing and things on my screen were appearing to run 20x faster (I could travel whole sectors in a matter of seconds!). Then, one day someone told me to d/l an AMD utility that fixes timing in 64fx dual core cpus!!! It was a problem of AMD. With all this uncontrolled situation with pcs and everyone designing something, you can never tell what your next problem will be. Thank you M$ for that
I would love to spend some time with someone where this happens and analyze the situation. I bet I can figure out exactly what the problem is. If the server isn't sending update information fast enough, that can certainly cause this problem. if this is the problem I fail to see how the devs would fail to notice this, it would be pretty obvious.
Instead, it could very well be a latency problem. Does the game use UDP or TCP? In UPD if the packet is late it gets dropped. Dropped packets would cause clipping like you describe. Thats one reason I have a Killer nic card. Because it bypasses the windows stack and prioritizes and caches my UDP packets I don't get too many dropped packets. A good test would be to see if the clipping shows up for me. If it does then its a server issue. If it doesn't, then it could very well be a windows stack issue.
You should contact KK and Snowcrash for that
i agree its not really a nice way to fight if u have to resort to clipping well u should have lost and u did.
Not to sound like a smart ass, but what does running 2x SLIed 8800 GTX cards have to do with anything? If the game code doesn't support SLI your setup could have a million graphics cards in it and it wouldn't affect anything.
I'm asking if this is an issue with the server code or with the tcp stack of windows or with the com code. If it is not an lag issue then what is it? Clipping that causes the graphics card not to show where someone is, is usually a latency issue, which is related to your connection.
While I may be a newbie in this game, I've been in the computer business for 20 years and have played computer games for 30. I used to be a hacker before it meant what it does today. I know how hardware and software gets affected.
My point was not the spec of my PC - and I am well aware that 2 SLI'd cards makes no difference in a game which doesn't support it.
My point was, you stated you had a fast card. I too, have a fast card - Clipping affects pretty much everyone equally - regardless of system spec and connection. IE - it seems to be a server side fault.
PS - I wasn't getting at you, or doubting your years of experience in IT. I think you took what I was saying the wrong way.
Well I mentioned a fast card because sometimes the latency can be caused by a slow graphics card. That doesn't mean that the issue is that cause specifically I was just ruling it out.
I too have 8800 GTX but not SLIed, I do have a SLI motherboard though.
I was refering more to my network card, which is a Killer nic card. It is very unique in that it runs its own NPU with a linux OS built in. That means it can process data independent of windows and we all know how bad windows handles network traffic for games.
Well I mentioned a fast card because sometimes the latency can be caused by a slow graphics card. That doesn't mean that the issue is that cause specifically I was just ruling it out.
I too have 8800 GTX but not SLIed, I do have a SLI motherboard though.
I was refering more to my network card, which is a Killer nic card. It is very unique in that it runs its own NPU with a linux OS built in. That means it can process data independent of windows and we all know how bad windows handles network traffic for games.
Thats all very nice but im sure everyone's AMD XP's and Pentiums 4 specced PC's back in the day ran it just fine without this problem we get now ;)
Anyway im quoting what i wrote 10 minutes ago, which seems the latest influx of activity on this thread has pretty much ignored (not your fault, it took me 10 minutes to think about)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonDragn
What is this clipping people are talking about? If it is not related to lag how can the server confuse your location? Obviously some lag has to be involved right?
I personally haven't noticed any kind of problem yet. I have a fast graphics card and a killer nic card. lag is almost nonexistent for me in this game. I have yet to see anyone "clip" yet.
----------------------------
The way i see it is its not necessarily "lag", its more to do with the frequency of position updates.
In my opinion, it was perfectly formed to the old version of the game because it updated enough for the runspeed when the runspeed cap was inplace. But now thats changed, the speed in hich people run at now has changed but the update rate hasn't.
No one from the "public" really know what exactly is causing this, and neither do the devs it seems. This topic is just a massive mix of opinions and intelligent guess work.
Now, clip can't really be explained, we because it varies from situations and opinions.
My clip description is:
Any subtle movements in a small flat space with a high runspeed causes "warping". Where the model moves very fast to the newest updated location, and because this movement is very fast, its very hard to hit someone. ("good" PPUS's rezzing for example)
This is noticable with everyone with runspeed faster then runspeed cap in 2.1 and below.
Running round corners or running on hills with a high runspeed causes "clip" where the model would be seen to run through the corner/building/hill and become untargetable for following persons. In most cases the hitbox is totally untargetable.
This is noticable with everyone with runspeed faster then runspeed cap in 2.1 and below.
Deliberate offenders of this in all pvp situations imaginable are called "clippers". They run round a building or a UG when they are low on health, and because they are not targetable, they do this until they are at a reasonable amount of health to pvp again.
This is really a rediculous way to pvp. Whether you agree with my opinions or not, really doesnt matter because I'm sure that all skilled pvp'ers would agree with me that this needs to be fixed.
And like Jini said, I also agree that running around as part of a carousel really isn't an honourable way to pvp. You lose my respect.
no offense necprock but I read your post and while I agree with you that cheating is a poor way to play a pvp game, I am really more interested in the technical aspects as this is intriguing. I remember playing the original necron and never had an issue like this back then. So what you are saying is true, it may not be a hardware issue. However. Wasn't this game recently revamped with new graphics? Wouldn't a increase in polygon count etc, affect the performance of this game on some people's older dated machines?
Also someone recomended running DX7. If the game is not completely compatible with DX7 anymore that could also cause an issue.
I was refering more to my network card, which is a Killer nic card. It is very unique in that it runs its own NPU with a linux OS built in. That means it can process data independent of windows and we all know how bad windows handles network traffic for games.
I don't know how bad windows handles network traffic.
And it's not easy to convince me that, 1000+ network engineers in M$ can't figure out for ages what was wrong with their network subroutines, while on the other hand, some linux geniuses have discovered the holy grail, free of charge :p
Actually I dont notice any real differnce when I'm running unix either in terms of latency
Well its not that Microsoft can't figure out network traffic. It is the overall hardware architecture that is at fault. While pcs can multitask, it still requires everything to be processed by the CPU. If you have alot of network traffic that floods your cpu, that can mean one of two things. 1. A video lag occurs because the CPU cannot simply display that much information that fast. There is a latecy (a delay) that occurs between when an event occured and when it is displayed on your computer.
2. Packets get dropped or ignored by your CPU, this happens to UDP packets because they are designed to keep you up to date with more current packets. Therefore you will notice a more choppy movement or clipping when theres too much data.
Now the problem can result from a connection issue too, if you happen to hit lag on the internet, alot of this traffic can be coming at you all at once. Your network card has to be able to handle this traffic and sort out all the packets in order. If your network card doesn't cache the data, then alot of this may just get ignored.
Another thing to consider is that windows has many different programs running to process this data. Just the simple matter of all of those things running can slow down your ability to process these packets. What this card does is completely go around that and feed the packets straight to your game program, ignoring window's stack altogether.
A good example of this was proven to me when I was playing in WOW. With my high end graphics card I was still noticing periods of latency in Ironforge. But with this network card the latency completely disappeared and the lag was more evened out because packets were processed on time even if there was high traffic.
no offense necprock but I read your post and while I agree with you that cheating is a poor way to play a pvp game, I am really more interested in the technical aspects as this is intriguing. I remember playing the original necron and never had an issue like this back then. So what you are saying is true, it may not be a hardware issue. However. Wasn't this game recently revamped with new graphics? Wouldn't a increase in polygon count etc, affect the performance of this game on some people's older dated machines?
Also someone recomended running DX7. If the game is not completely compatible with DX7 anymore that could also cause an issue.
For someone with "IT knowledge", you should really know that mostly everyone has a computer that can play something other then a 5 year old game. Revamped graphics? I wouldn't put it like that. More of a better texture, better polycount yes, but in 2.1 when this transition of graphics update was made, the only framerate loss was when I was in the wastes with the "forced vegitation" was inplace.
I may not be a technological genius but I am a logical thinker.
I'm also sure that everyone who plays Neocron is a "gamer" and play other games online, which you would need the hardware for.
Also the fact this situation got as worse as it is in 2.2 and not really before that, suggests that 2.2 is the reason why we have this problem. So perhaps something was changed in 2.2 to cause these problems?
To really see the full extent of the problem, set up 2 "highspec" pc's put them side by side, get 2 NC accounts with good pvp specced characters and run rings around your other character on one of those pc's.
This isn't theory, there clearly is a problem that needs to be fixed.
Thats what I'm trying to do, think this out logically. If 2.2 is the problem then we should focus on that. What were the changes in 2.2 that could have caused this? Was there more content? Better graphics? Higher textures? more colors? More complex graphic models? Someone mentioned the 3d character models were changed, could this be causing the problem?
It could be the way the game is handling data retrievals for drawing the graphics. I know it caches all the models just before you zone but what impact does that have on the game?
Thats what I'm trying to do, think this out logically. If 2.2 is the problem then we should focus on that. What were the changes in 2.2 that could have caused this? Was there more content? Better graphics? Higher textures? more colors? More complex graphic models? Someone mentioned the 3d character models were changed, could this be causing the problem?
It could be the way the game is handling data retrievals for drawing the graphics. I know it caches all the models just before you zone but what impact does that have on the game?
.... As I stated, 2.1 was the graphical update. The game was fine then...
2.2 came out which was strictly content, and now we get this. I blame runspeed, nuff said.
Well if 2.2 was a content update then the problem could very well be a database issue. The server could be trying to retrieve data and that could delay the update to your machine.
EVE used to have this issue which caused all sorts of server lag til they updated their setup with a solid state drive.
I'm no expert whatsoever with clipping, what causes it or even how computers/internet works in general but something that might help you Mr.Moon is that in the many, MANY threads about this issue it has been brought to our (the publics) attention that the reason (or PART) of the reason why we experience this now when players didn't in NC1 is that when NC2 was released they made changes to things server side.
Because the code (or whatever it is) was quite seriously open to exploits and was being exploited in a big way by some people they updated it so there were quite a lot more server side checks to try and reduce the exploiting.
I explained that really badly, let me see if I can find the original post...
Not the post I was after but something which helps explain the issue:
Interpolating player positions between two known points isn't the problem (even taking geometry into account). The problem is that you don't know where the second point is going to be until you receive the update message from the server. Of course the client can try and predict where that second point is going to be but in an FPS, especially during combat, people have a tendency to change direction very quickly thus rendering the prediction useless. The result? The player disappears from the point where the client thought it was going to be and appears in the place the server tells it that it actually is.
NThat one from this (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=140391&page=11&pp=15&highlight=clipping) thread.
Finally found the one I was after :p
Bear in mind that far more information is "round-tripped" to the server now than used to be back in the old days. You can thank your friendly local exploiters and hackers for that one. A lot of processing that used to take place solely client-side now has to be paralleled on the server to stop people cheating. Because the work is done in both places you sometimes see an immediate result but then a check message is transferred to see whether your client came up with the same result as the server. The server's version of events can then sometimes overwrite your client's version if they differ causing "bounces" and other strange anomalies.
Also, remember that this is an FPS style of game where you can run, walk, stop, duck, jump, zigzig left and right at any time, draw a weapon, change weapons etc. etc. especially during a fight. Imagine how much more traffic is required versus those games where you just point at a place on the map and click.
It's all very interesting stuff (especially when you bring in more advanced topics like movement prediction based on velocity vectors and so on), but it's very difficult to balance update frequencies of various events through a narrow pipe. Perhaps the relative importance and frequency of messages can be adjusted to improve the "clipping" effect - I don't have access to the code so I can't say - but we'll continue to look into it.
N
/edit - a classic example of parallel working is when you buy something from a shop. Your client calculates the prices that you see on the screen but it's the server that negotiates the price you actually pay. There was a bug waaay back in the day when the algorithm in the client was slightly different to the one on the server and the price you paid turned out to be different to the one you saw in the trade window. Once upon a time this was all client-side code, but exploiters quickly found a way of intercepting the messages so they could get whatever they wanted for free. A lot of time and effort goes into detecting and fixing these problems which you don't see in the patch notes. This can result in what appear to be small patches taking a long time to produce...From this (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=140005&page=1&pp=15) thread.
Sorry for the long post, hope that helps some :)
Well you just described Latency in detail pretty much. Thats exactly what happens. In these situations, the client sends update data to the server, and then the server updates your position to all the people that can see it. The problem here is the time it takes from you changing your position to the person seeing it can be quite significant due to any number of issues. From your descriptions it could very well be a server side problem.
Needs more testing.
My question here is, when you shoot at someone where you saw them last, does the server registers a hit, even though at the time you shot at him he's already moved. Is the targeting/hits handled on client side or server side?
Well you just described Latency in detail pretty much. Thats exactly what happens. In these situations, the client sends update data to the server, and then the server updates your position to all the people that can see it. The problem here is the time it takes from you changing your position to the person seeing it can be quite significant due to any number of issues. From your descriptions it could very well be a server side problem.
Needs more testing.
My question here is, when you shoot at someone where you saw them last, does the server registers a hit, even though at the time you shot at him he's already moved. Is the targeting/hits handled on client side or server side?
Should be server side. Because if you are fighting someone who is clipping on purpose, a huge amount of hits will simply not damage him. Because on the server there's already 3 and a half wall between me and him so the shots simply don't reach the target.
At least that's how i see it.
And on the issue, i posted on page 2 what they did that brought up all the lag. Something about casting spells changed, that broke something else leading to every spell being fully runcastable and some exploits like the silent ressurection. And when they fixed THAT, it broke the netcode. :lol:
It's just worse these days with the higher runspeed you can reach.
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