View Full Version : The Deal with Hybrids
So what is the deal with hybrids at the moment? I'm leveling an APU at moment because I want to try it out again, but obviously I'm very weak in con.
Is there still a malus to having some points in APU and some points in PPU? (apart from the obvious ones from implants)
If I have my apu with enough for tl3 heal, will that affect my apu skills (apart from obviously losing a couple points in ppu)
I just can't remember what happened last with hybrids, and why they aren't viable anymore (too high APU/PPU req?)
Cheers for help.
Not totally sure, but I think the malus was removed some time ago.
Got to go through patchnotes to find it.
I think the deal with the hybrid is that you dont have enough skillpoints to get both high enough APU and PPU.
Try playing around with StevenJ's Neoskiller. It should help you find out what is possible and/or viable.
Yeh i already made a nice setup and all. Love tht program. I was just wondering why more apu's don't spec for heal. Is the lower tl nanite heal better? (i'm def not speccing for the tl40 heal tool)
Apocalypsox
24-12-07, 03:41
Good luck with the TL40 heal on a monk, takes 75 con :D
Im trying to make a hybrid atm as well, and its not working too well for me. If you get a good working setup, you oughta post it up here
Mmm, i'm fiddling around. Taking off 10 points off APU, i can get up to protector and tl 10 heal nicely, so i think i'll go for a high apu/low ppu, hybrid setup. The 10 points off APU won't make that much of a difference damage-wise.
Are rifle/pistol PPU still viable? They kill stuff rather slow, but are never really in any danger from anything. :)
I have a rifle/barter PPU now.. he's just slow, otherwise he's mostly what a 'pure' ppu is, nearly unkillable. :)
edit: As for the hybrid, I would say FA/HL and blessed buffs with a couple of resist chips.
Yeah I was just playing with NSkill again, my PPU used to be a pistol PPU. You can pretty easily get to the S-337-F SMG, and have 120+ P-C, 80-ish WEP, and still be able to poke, hack, barter, whatever around 85. I think in the head I would do a Crahn Support Core, PPR, Pistol 2, and Exp Psi 3. Reflexbooster 1 in the back, pistol eye. I only have about 90 Psi, so I'd wear the level 1 monk PA.
You kill slow, but steady. Indestructible for solo hunting.
I liked it, back in the test server for 2.2, when hybrids could use everything.
I liked that idea, because with that idea, a hybrid could be moderately useful at both APU and PPU, and an APU/PPU can be very good at their specialty.
William Antrim
24-12-07, 12:56
Good luck with the TL40 heal on a monk, takes 75 con :D
75 Body health, 40 con.
On paper I have toyed with the idea of a nannite setup for heals as lets face it; if someone shoots at you do you want the choice of going down in one second or two? Thats the only real difference between going all out on body health or saving the extra 30 points or so for resists. I know the heal tool is slow but I figure with the survival kits and a decent armour set up an APU could have resists only marginally weaker than your average spy. I am still convinced there is a setup out there that either noone has tried or few have discovered privately and aren't willing to share. I will find my own anyway as I like the challenge of it. Just need to cap int. Which is boring as hell. :mad:
Just need to cap int. Which is boring as hell. :mad:
On an APU? What for? Just use as is, keep hunting and eventually you'll get int xp.
[just capped CMuster [my PPUs] int a week or so ago]
William Antrim
24-12-07, 14:51
On an APU? What for? Just use as is, keep hunting and eventually you'll get int xp.
[just capped CMuster [my PPUs] int a week or so ago]
It sounds completely anal I know but its just for the sake of completeness. I finally dragged myself to Int 94 on my ppu yesterday, even though he has Woc Psi already... strange that.
Loads of people have said you dont NEED to cap intel on a monk but I want the 6 extra hack points for my ppu to be honest. Its just for completeness sake, nothing more. Levelling is such a bore though. I just managed to get a pe to woc and I am having a helluva lot of fun with him but I rarely get either of my monkeys out, unless its A) to help a clan mate level (ppu then) or B) Op fight (ppu again) just because I suck balls with an apu.
Doc Holliday
24-12-07, 16:41
without obvious testing i cant be sure but i would have thought it logical to carry a heal spell as opposed to a nanite heal. surely by the fact your speccing ppu its better than the crummy basic one and a monk wont have much in terms of health for resists for the decent one. plus transport can be an issue and your already carrying PSI boosters.
I'm able to carry around all of those things just fine on my APU.
I have played with this a bunch and would post the setup I liked best if I knew how to insert images into this post. So yea, if anyone wants to tell me I'll upload the setup.
Anyway, they are not at all viable.
I ended up with a 3 drug pa swaping setup. For all that work my resists were still worse than anything but a pure apus and my dmg was worse than any other class in the game. Oh and did I mention the heal wasn't as effective as the nanite ones?
The only advantadge I could find at all was the ability to rezz on an atacker.
Some of the issues are:
Yes the apu/ppu malus is back
If you have any apu points the game considers you an apu, this means that your selfcast holy shields are considered forign cast (badly) as is your heal. You retain the resist cap of an apu (75%) and your dmg seems to be around 50% of what a pure apu's is with worse frequency (by a lot) and bad aiming.
So in short (and long) don't do it. Hybrids are broken atm.
But yea, its a shame. I love the idea of being a hybrid, and tbh it really would not be hard to fix them. Just slowly make ajustments (being careful not to over do it) untill they are balanced.
Edit: See this post: http://forum.neocron.com./showthread.php?t=138213 for details on what happens if the game considers you an apu (and for a bunch of other great info too)
well after much fiddling i've come up with a setup for a hybrid which uses the lowest two shields (white and red) with fire apoc and holy poison beam as primary weapons. get about 123% damage on poison beam which is nice.
i get resists of 55% energy, 55% piercing, 41% fire, 33% xray, 36% poison, 39% force.
got atl of 65 and 730 health.
can pop a paratemol x forte for extra speed and health but its not strictly necessary.
with ppu shields i get the 75% energy cap and v effective at ops.
it's not bad, and i'm having good fun on the guy. can take most non-ppu'd apus and non-ak spies, even a couple h-c tanks 1vs1.
if anyone else interested in setting up a hybrid give me a pm and i'll help you out.
p.s they still need to remove hybrid malus and reduce ppu/apu reqs a bit.
Like i said to you the other day, maybe now we should be allowed to self cast psi combat booster.
Voodoo_Magic
02-01-08, 12:54
Like i said to you the other day, maybe now we should be allowed to self cast psi combat booster.
If your on a ppu/tank team fighting a hybrid you should PSI Combat boost the Hybrid :)
Makes his heal and shields worse
My shields only do 5% anyway and i use nanite heal so wouldn't really affect me :p
Yeh i'd like to see self cast psi combat booster. Not sure if i would spec for it tho.
I've tried many hybrid setups now in NF and it's worth shit right now...Tickles, even if you use the basic shields, they will save you like 10 health per hit but on the other hand you do 10 less damage to the enemy, which ends up as the result that it's worth shit since you do less damage but take a bit less, so it's a 4 seconds longer duel with an enemy ending the same way....
I tried as well a blessed setup using blessed heal + some blessed shields + lower FCS which i was getting back with PSI 3 buff and could use FA + blessed heal.....and tbh it was total shit...the heal just don't heal you and the shields don't protect for shit as your FA does no damage.
Hybrids, as the melee tanks, needs something done to make them usable in game again in an effective way.
I've tried many hybrid setups now in NF and it's worth shit right now...Tickles, even if you use the basic shields, they will save you like 10 health per hit but on the other hand you do 10 less damage to the enemy, which ends up as the result that it's worth shit since you do less damage but take a bit less, so it's a 4 seconds longer duel with an enemy ending the same way....
I tried as well a blessed setup using blessed heal + some blessed shields + lower FCS which i was getting back with PSI 3 buff and could use FA + blessed heal.....and tbh it was total shit...the heal just don't heal you and the shields don't protect for shit as your FA does no damage.
Hybrids, as the melee tanks, needs something done to make them usable in game again in an effective way.
Not compleatly true. I mean yes, hybrids are worth shit now. But you actualy do lose more dmg than you gain in resists. You actualy get worse, even 1v1. So yea, making a hybrid is rather ill advised.
lol great, with 2 ppu's and one apu already what am i supposed to do with my remaining 2 capped monks.
lol great, with 2 ppu's and one apu already what am i supposed to do with my remaining 2 capped monks.
Congrats. You're now the proud owner of a resser and barterer.
Has anyone tried an APU with imp and tc? With a drug or 2 you would still be fast..
edit: oh wait forget it. Those nanite tools have dex reqs don't they?
Has anyone tried an APU with imp and tc? With a drug or 2 you would still be fast..
edit: oh wait forget it. Those nanite tools have dex reqs don't they?
Nah, no dex reqs. Int, TC and IMP.
But yeah, I have tried it. No, you are still slow as hell, even with drugs. Plus the bottom level Advanced tool, with the TC you have (the basic SPIT tools are such a joke we won't discuss them) doesn't give anything like enough protection. You last a LOT logner being fast than the small amount you gain from the nanites.
I think what would fix them would be a complete removal of the reduction in effectiveness for a hybrid speced Monk and an across the board reduction in requirements for the modules of around 2-3%, that is it.
This would increase the effectiveness of a pure APU and a Pure PPU at the same time as it makes hybrids at least viable but not overpowered.
Not compleatly true. I mean yes, hybrids are worth shit now. But you actualy do lose more dmg than you gain in resists. You actualy get worse, even 1v1. So yea, making a hybrid is rather ill advised.
No that's not true either. The increase of 45 into PPU has increased my force, pierce, poison and fire resists by about 5% while only reducing my damage by about 20 or so.
After most peoples resists that would mean a reduction of 5-10 damage dealt while giving me savings in health of around 10 health per shot (depending on a lot of things obviously)
It's given my hybrid near spy resists and still not bad damage.
he's still a definite underdog but also a lot of fun to play and funny when people go "wtf a hybrid" after i've killed someone (or more commonly, died :P )
Increasing resists by 5% is not near spy resists. Nanites give WAY more resists than that with WAY more dmg. Oh, and spys are faster.
And trust me, even specing for basic shields will reduce your dmg a lot from apu max. If it didn't affect yours that much than you probubly didn't have an all out agressive setup to begin with.
My apu runs with pa 3, a combat core, and agressor chips 2 and 3, the point commitment to overcome those maluses is very large not to mention every point of ppu makes your apu spells do even less dmg.
Anyway, if you're having fun with it, thats good and I don't mean to shit on your parade. I'm just trying to bring awarness to the fact that they are in no way shape or form balanced or viable and need to be fixed.
Tickles...
I think you look too much at precise stats....talking about 2% and 4% and 2,495%........the thing is that if i come up and shoot you with my Fire Apoc, it will end the same way. :lol:
Tbh at this point, it's not the 1% that will decide who wins, it's your aiming.
I still like to see you try many setups to make hybrid usable but it's really not near anything that could be considered decent...and surely not in OP fights, since more that you have shittier damage, u wont use your own shields since there are ppus around....as before you could fight on your own on an hybrid DBing enemies, noob sheltering them, HABing them....noob healing them....that was way more usefull
Right ok, Vegah, I know you're this great player and all and no one can beat you but this setup does work against quite a few people. No it's not equal to alot of tanks, spies and pes, but it's not useless. I've had a situation where I am attacked by a good tank and a poor spy. I took the spy down, and then made the tank run. None of us had ppu buffs. On other occasions that tank on his own has taken me down.
With some fights in NF, i've won around half the duels. There were some spies and some tanks that i had no chance again. My aiming isn't great and nor is the fact that i'm playing a hybrid but it works against some people, which makes it semi-viable. I'll never win a Fight Night with this guy, nor rule over Plaza 2 but that's not the point. The point is the fun of playing an APU who can take some damage. My Fire Apoc still hurts... alot. Maybe not as much as a full APU but its still pure fire damage doing 80 health off a hit on most un-ppu'd characters. That or my poison beam.
I'm just saying that he's not half bad. He's independent of damned ppus, and with a psi 3 buff and ppu shields, is still, YES, still, very viable at OP wars.
He's challenging, he's hard, but he's fun. He'll never be that great not in the games current balancing, but i'm still going to press on with him and you'll still see him at OP fights (while i'm still playing of course)
Hybrids definitely need a boost, but like melee, in my opinion, it doesn't need to be that big of one, or else everyone is going to jump on the bandwagon of the overpowered hybrid once more.
I say fair play for battling on with an underpowered character.
Gone are the days where every man, woman and child bitched about how over powered they were yet at the same time had their own apu hyb which they used for zonewhoring at mb.
Personally I really like the poison beam on my hyb. Although I've since gone down the road of lowering my ppu as spec'ing for haz was a bridge too far.
Right ok, Vegah, I know you're this great player and all and no one can beat you but this setup does work against quite a few people. No it's not equal to alot of tanks, spies and pes, but it's not useless. I've had a situation where I am attacked by a good tank and a poor spy. I took the spy down, and then made the tank run. None of us had ppu buffs. On other occasions that tank on his own has taken me down.
With some fights in NF, i've won around half the duels. There were some spies and some tanks that i had no chance again. My aiming isn't great and nor is the fact that i'm playing a hybrid but it works against some people, which makes it semi-viable. I'll never win a Fight Night with this guy, nor rule over Plaza 2 but that's not the point. The point is the fun of playing an APU who can take some damage. My Fire Apoc still hurts... alot. Maybe not as much as a full APU but its still pure fire damage doing 80 health off a hit on most un-ppu'd characters. That or my poison beam.
I'm just saying that he's not half bad. He's independent of damned ppus, and with a psi 3 buff and ppu shields, is still, YES, still, very viable at OP wars.
He's challenging, he's hard, but he's fun. He'll never be that great not in the games current balancing, but i'm still going to press on with him and you'll still see him at OP fights (while i'm still playing of course)
Hybrids definitely need a boost, but like melee, in my opinion, it doesn't need to be that big of one, or else everyone is going to jump on the bandwagon of the overpowered hybrid once more.
I'm glad you're having fun, but tbh the people you fight must suck. Have you ever been full pure apu? 80 dmg a hit on fire apoc (a 2 sec cast) is HORRIFIC dmg. Its just awful. And your resists are still worse than any other class but an apus.
If you're doing well then other players are either worse than you or have bad setups.
Both the numbers, my experiance, and the experiance of multaple clanmates backs this up.
And btw, VegaH and I were two of the origonal pioners of hybrids in 2.1, before everyone jumped on the bandwagon. I've tried so many specs it makes me shudder to think of the xp wasted. Hybrids are not just a little broken, they are downright useless against any semi comptent players.
Edit: And I'm sorry if I sound harsh, I don't mean to be.
Part of what I'm getting at is there HAS to be a solo advantadge for being a hybrid or its pointless. Hybrids should be the monk spec for unsupported play. A lone hybrid is very effective however they don't gain anything from ppu buffs and hence are at a disadvantadge in large fights.
Since obviously hybrids are worse than any other class in an opp fight, with a ppu, or solo, they are just plain broken.
With a ppu don't you put on PA, get a psi 3 and haz3? Just wondering, I haven't done a fraction of the investigating you have, but I did have a 2.1 hyb.. and yeah he sucked. :p
edit: hell if you're going with a ppu, why not get poked up with offence imps while you're at it?
With a ppu don't you put on PA, get a psi 3 and haz3? Just wondering, I haven't done a fraction of the investigating you have, but I did have a 2.1 hyb.. and yeah he sucked. :p
edit: hell if you're going with a ppu, why not get poked up with offence imps while you're at it?
You can put on pa and get a psi 3, but your dmg will still be very very subpar to the point of doing almost no net dmg vs shields and heals. Even with the added apu, you still miss out on a lot due to points spent in ppu and that still gives you an apu malus.
Very apu oriented hybrids would be ok in an op war (though only as ok as normal apus are which is still kinda shitty tbh) but then again, you're hardly even a hybrid at that point. Solo you would get like 2 or 3% more resists which, with apu, is laughable. You might as well save on the psi chips and just use a ppr/npcd, you'd get that same resist boost with less hassle and more dmg.
But yea, one of the many issues with hybrids is apus just are not very good anymore. So the whole idea of specing lots of apu and then supporting it with ppu is silly. Why not use a gun that does more dmg and have better resists and speed on an HC tank, PE, or Spy?
I'm glad you're having fun, but tbh the people you fight must suck. Have you ever been full pure apu? 80 dmg a hit on fire apoc (a 2 sec cast) is HORRIFIC dmg. Its just awful. And your resists are still worse than any other class but an apus.
If you're doing well then other players are either worse than you or have bad setups.
Both the numbers, my experiance, and the experiance of multaple clanmates backs this up.
And btw, VegaH and I were two of the origonal pioners of hybrids in 2.1, before everyone jumped on the bandwagon. I've tried so many specs it makes me shudder to think of the xp wasted. Hybrids are not just a little broken, they are downright useless against any semi comptent players.
Edit: And I'm sorry if I sound harsh, I don't mean to be.
Part of what I'm getting at is there HAS to be a solo advantadge for being a hybrid or its pointless. Hybrids should be the monk spec for unsupported play. A lone hybrid is very effective however they don't gain anything from ppu buffs and hence are at a disadvantadge in large fights.
Since obviously hybrids are worse than any other class in an opp fight, with a ppu, or solo, they are just plain broken.
Everyone seems to think hybrids are completely screwed. I'm just saying that they're not completely... just mostly. I think you're trying to say they need a major boost right?
I just think that they don't need that big a boost. Removing the hybrid malus will do quite a lot. Lowering the requirements of the spells will be good as well. I just want to leave it at that. No other changes. If the requirements are lowered, I don't want them lowered by too much.
Yeh the people i've fought may not have been that great. They may not be the elite guys and they may not use the current (IMO overpowered) weapons like x-bow and AK, but a lot seem run of the mill Plaza 2 lovers.
Also you say that at OPs even with a ppu i'm useless? That's not true. I only have 45 PPU specc'd, which barely reduces my damage at all. With ppu shields i reach the energy resist cap of 75% and around 60% fire resist. Having an apu (or hybrid) around has been useful at OPs. I still do nice damage even when the enemy are PPU shielded.
Anyway i think we're just repeating ourselves. We both think hybrids need a boost. I'm just hoping our discussion is noticed by the devs.
P.s Nah its cool, i don't find it harsh. This is a discussion not an argument, I'm happy to hear it all :)
edit: @ onero: why be an apu? because i love it :p
Perhaps another idea, would be to change the way a "PPU" is defined.
Atm if you have apu points, you are considered an apu, your shields are considered forign cast and your resist cap is 75%.
What if PPU was made a sliding scale. If you have less than 50 ppu points you're an apu.
If you have between 50 and 75 points you're resist cap is 78% and your shields/heal are more effective.
If you have between 75 and 100 points you're resist cap is 81% and your shields/heal are more effective.
If you're between 100 and 125 you're resist cap is 83% and your shields/heal are more effective.
And if you have over 140 points you're resist cap is 85% and your shields/heal are more effective.
Full PPU of course would require less than 25 apu points or somthing like that.
The key to this idea is that with the apu/ppu malus. Even though its possible to use holy buffs with fire apoc, you're dmg would be very low, making up for you having the best resists (non PPUed) of any combat class.
More offensive hybrids would spec for lower tl shields, which would give them a useful boost and could get good dmg.
Edit: And sigh, I know what you mean, my main is still my apu, I love him even though its a bit hard these days.
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