View Full Version : CST level?
What level of cst is good now? Still 'as high as you can get?'
It's always been as high as you can get.
The only reason that wasn't common at one point was because people misunderstood what was said. Slot chances were always based on item quality, but people assumed the quality value being used was what was shown on the item, when it was always the theoretical quality to begin with.
I logged in to find previously built items at higher than 84%. THAT was weird, I guess the theoretical build quality was always a part of the items! My trader has 220cst (no buff/OP) now and a little research, let's see what good things come. :)
My monk has to be the barter now but hey, he's a useless meatbag anyways. :p
Dead Bodies
13-12-07, 11:17
Runner,
Please see this post (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?p=2107709#post2107709) for a Guide to CST Please read through it all there is updated infomation further on. Also you can visit this Archive (http://forum.neocron.com/archive/index.php/t-42589) Wich has alot of useful infomation inside.
And to GIve you the offical word form KK
*** WARNING SPOILERS ***
If you enjoy building items on a specific bench, crouching, drugged like hell or while dancing the Macarena to increase the number of slots you get, do not read the post below!!! It'll ruin your fun
Seriously, go away!
Last chance...
*** SPOILERS ***
Besides slotenhancers, which guarantee 1 to 3 slots, the only way to influence your chance to get slots is to get a construction skill as high as possible.
There are 2 variables in the formula that determines the amount of slots: the quality of the built item and a random number (0-199). Although quality of constructed items has a cap, the quality used by the formula is the theoretical quality, so having just enough CST to reach the build cap for the desired item is far from being optimal. In fact, if the quality is below a certain level, it is not possible to get 5 or even 4 slots. This quality is based on the TL of the constructed item DEX, INT and your CST skill.
So having a high build quality opens up the possibilities to get up to 5 slots. To get the slots, a random number is rolled. If that random number is above a certain number (derived from fixed factors and also the quality), you get 0 slots. For 1 slots, the random number has to be lower than the calculated number above. For 2 slots, it has to be below another number that's lower than that required for 1 slot. Same thing for 3, 4, 5 slots, the random number the game rolls has to be lower and lower. That's why builds with low quality can never get 5 slots, the required number would have to be negative (which it can't be).
As the quality factors into the formula determining the breakpoints for x slots, a high quality means a bigger range of random numbers will be able to get you slots. In other words, it increases your chances to get slots.
Rare weapons are a special case though. In addition to the formula described above, there is another roll for either 0, 1 or 2 additional slots (33.33% chance to get either). That's why rare weapons generally have more slots than non-rares.
Hope this helps m8
E&E
I logged in to find previously built items at higher than 84%. THAT was weird, I guess the theoretical build quality was always a part of the items! My trader has 220cst (no buff/OP) now and a little research, let's see what good things come. :)
My monk has to be the barter now but hey, he's a useless meatbag anyways. :p
Pre 2.2 each non rare item had a cap depending on it's TL. After 2.2 this was changed and now the cap is 99% on all TL's.
As for rares I make no secret of the fact i'm not capped :p but at CST of 245 + OP bonus I build artifact quality items with slots :) does me fine.
Make sure your nmot using the old SS chip ;)
SS chip suxxxxx now.. I'm using hawk, cst2+3, TH, nerves3
SS chip suxxxxx now.. I'm using hawk, cst2+3, TH, nerves3
I never doubted you ;)
The imping gloves thing though... THAT is annoying! So I put all psi in psr and will just wear a cst glove all the time.
On another note I just leveled int to 94 building TL44 rifles.. Whee. :lol:
William Antrim
13-12-07, 12:43
If youre bored, and i mean mindnumbingly, soul-destroyingly, nothing on tv and noone to harass on msn-type bored then the tl150 construction missions give decent xp to a constructor - its roughly 100k xp to dex and int per successfull mission. Just so you know.
No need though.. it's 6 more cst at the end. I know some are absolutely obsessed with full capping but I'm a bit too lazy and/or too practical.. take your pick. ;)
Eternal Pink
29-12-07, 22:57
being capped is more than just a few extra points in CST dude, your attributes effects what you build so a capped char ( think mine has something like 125 int and 100 dex ) will need less cst to cap a item than a non-capped char. As i remember ( though i do smoke dope so not gonna guarentee the memory ) i tested and found i could cap all BPable stuff right up to the TL 115 stuff at 231 cst to 99%.
Glove thing is annoying tho, i'm kinda lucky in that i made a multi-trader in 2.1 so she can poke her own gloves but if you where a resser/cst you've gotta either pick a glove or keep looking for a poke whenever you switch jobs.
being capped is more than just a few extra points in CST dude, your attributes effects what you build so a capped char ( think mine has something like 125 int and 100 dex ) will need less cst to cap a item than a non-capped char. As i remember ( though i do smoke dope so not gonna guarentee the memory ) i tested and found i could cap all BPable stuff right up to the TL 115 stuff at 231 cst to 99%.
Slot chances are not based on the item quality value you see on a weapon, simply getting to 99% is not enough. The quality value that's used is theoretical. Someone with say 100 CST may construct an item to reach 99% quality, and someone with 300 CST may construct an item to reach 99% quality... what's the difference you ask? People made the mistake in the past of speccing only the bare minimum to reach this 99%, and this is wrong. The 300 CST person may be building that same item with a theoretical quality of 198%, for example, which is then reduced to 99% on the item itself. Slot chances take this 198% into account, not the 99% displayed on the item.
If you truly want to have the best possible chances for slots, you need as much CST/DEX/INT as possible, in that order.
If you truly want to have the best possible chances for slots, you need as much CST/DEX/INT as possible, in that order.
I find this to be wrong, I did an experiment with a capped spy (2.1 mind you, but I don't think they changed anything except upping the cap to 99%).
I used a tl3 heal
I did 8 separate batches building 100 - each with a different amount of construct skill.
I found that having 93 construct skill capped a tl 3 heal at 94%
I built 100 heals each with 115, 130, 165, 180, 200, 225, 245, and 265 construct skill.
The results were almost the same for every construct skill, having more construct did absolutely nothing for the % of getting more slots.
The actual numbers were
construct skill - 0 slot, 1 slot, 2 slot, 3 slot, 4 slot, 5 slot.
115 - 61, 23, 10, 2, 3, 1
130 - 50, 33, 13, 4, 0, 0
165 - 53, 33, 12, 1, 0, 1
180 - 46, 40, 8, 4, 2, 0
200 - 53, 36, 7, 1, 2, 1
225 - 54, 24, 19, 2, 0, 1
245 - 52, 31, 12, 3, 2, 0
265 - 56, 26, 12, 5, 1, 0
The numbers looked like this:
Capped spy with 115 construct skill slot percentages
61% no slot
23% 1 slot
10% 2 slot
2% 3 slot
3% 4 slot
1% 5 slot
Cappedspy with 265 construct skill slot percentages
56% no slot
26% 1 slot
12% 2 slot
5% 3 slot
1% 4 slot
0% 5 slot
As you can see the percentages are all within a few points usually, thats with a 150 construct points difference, there is no noticeable difference in slot % chances with having more construct skill.
Granted there are some variables here, like dex and int changing a bit with imps but not much. This was also done in 2.1, but I don't think that they've changed much except upping the cap to 99%. I could be wrong, actually I wish I was, having more construct skill should, in my opinion, give you better chances for more slots, but it doesn't seem to.
I may do this again to see if I get the same results now that some stuff has changed.
I think doing that kind of test, you need to do it with a high TL item instead of something that you can reach the 99% on easy.
I would think that doing the same on a TL 90 item, would show that the lower your CST/DEX/INT is, the fewer (percentage) of the high slot items you will make.
The chance of making a 5 slot non rare TL 90 item with just enough CST to get to 99% should give you very little chance of getting slots.
I havent been building 100's of items in one go. I normally do about 20 in a batch.
Doing 20 without drugs and other enhancers to CST/DEX/INT, and doing 20 with the max I could get extra make a difference to my SPY. I would not get any 4/5 slot without enhancers.
With all the help I could get from drugs/OPs and PSI, I would almost always get atleast 1 4 or 5 slot out of 20.
That is with items around TL 70.
I need to build some more HackNet software next time I log on.
I will write down what I find out, and post again.
Why would the tl of the weapon matter once the stat cap is achieved? If we are talking about the percentage of better slots with more construct points.
Your theory seems to be a reasonable one, but there is absolutely no proof to support it, I had the same problem, this is why I did this little experiment.
I will try this again with a higher TL item to see if there is any difference, who knows it could be different?
Why would the tl of the weapon matter once the stat cap is achieved? If we are talking about the percentage of better slots with more construct points.
Your theory seems to be a reasonable one, but there is absolutely no proof to support it, I had the same problem, this is why I did this little experiment.
I will try this again with a higher TL item to see if there is any difference, who knows it could be different?
The proof is Thanatos specifically telling us how construction works... :p The quote was mentioned earlier in this very thread, but I also added the relevent section at the end of this post, and bolded some parts for emphasis.
The TL matters because it's easier to reach the highest breakpoints even with a lower construction skill on low TL items. As Thanatos has said before, the quality value you see on the weapon (nowadays 99%) is NOT the true quality value of the weapon. The game currently caps all weapons to 99% or lower regardless of their actual quality. The actual quality is what construction slot chances is based on, not the capped listed quality.
Have you ever wondered why weapons made before that patch with say, 89% quality, magically changed to 99% quality after that particular patch? It's becuase the real item quality is stored in the database, and the cap you see on the weapon is adjusted off of that. Now imagine someone who only specs the minimum in CST to reach the cap with the mistaken impression that they will maximize slot chances... Back then, they would have made that weapon to reach 89% and not a point more in construction! Flash forward to today, that weapon would still be at 89%, not 99% like if it were made by me, and if caps were taken off completely, it might even be 89% compared to 200%+. That's what the construction formula is based on, the value you can't see, that value is what the value you do see is based off of.
Besides slotenhancers, which guarantee 1 to 3 slots, the only way to influence your chance to get slots is to get a construction skill as high as possible.
There are 2 variables in the formula that determines the amount of slots: the quality of the built item and a random number (0-199). Although quality of constructed items has a cap, the quality used by the formula is the theoretical quality, so having just enough CST to reach the build cap for the desired item is far from being optimal. In fact, if the quality is below a certain level, it is not possible to get 5 or even 4 slots. This quality is based on the TL of the constructed item DEX, INT and your CST skill.
Ressi says she gets better slots with 220 than with every point possible in construction, drugs, buff and an op.
Personally though I think it this simple.
If you construct items of tl 115. Then to be sure you will not fail. have double cst 230. Anymore is a waste and less is not enough. Now As for "slots" they are RANDOM a % chance. So you can do NO tests. For example. Try flipping a coin with your right thumb 20 times. marking down how many heads you got. Then do it with the left. If you get more heads with the left thumb does this mean your left thumb is more skilled a flipping a coin? ... no it's simply down to chance...
Maybe if it were a five sided coin and the results were almost identicle with both thumbs :p I know what Thanatos has said how it works but it just doesn't seem right when constructing things in game. I just did 100 tl85 holy heals with 193 construct, then did 100 more with 323 construct and and got almost exactly the same number of slots both times, its just all retarded anyways :p
It's slower (no instant low level csting anymore :() and 5 slots is still a purty thing to see. :)
Maybe if it were a five sided coin and the results were almost identicle with both thumbs :p I know what Thanatos has said how it works but it just doesn't seem right when constructing things in game. I just did 100 tl85 holy heals with 193 construct, then did 100 more with 323 construct and and got almost exactly the same number of slots both times, its just all retarded anyways :p
I don't think Thanatos is wrong, I think the issue is simply that the skill doesn't play large enough of a role. For example, while it is true that more CST/DEX/INT is better, the difference between 230 and 300+ might be 1%, you never know. It would be rediculous if true.
They should really give more of an advantage to those with higher skill levels, heck, they should increase slot chances globally. Tradeskills are hardly ever touched in the patches, I think it's about time. Someone with 300+ CST shouldn't be making 75%+ of low TL weapons with 0-2 slots, and like 1% 5-slot, that's just poor game mechanics. Something like that would be better placed in long-to-cap grinding MMOs like FFXI, not Neocron.
They should also increase research speed... but that's for another thread.
I agree with you 100% rob :)
And someone with 300+ construct makes something like 90% 0-2 slot items :P
I just wish they would adjust it so it feels like it actually is worth it to spec more construct.
Back in time I collected some data (http://mantris.net/darkana/index.php?s=nc&p=conststats) in regard to construction, but never got around to reach my goal. Now with all the changes done to the system I would have to start over again ... There is no need to build big stacks, just write down the numbers for everything you construct, and keep the context the same. Context are the known influences like INT, DEX and CST skill, and others assumed to, like sitting/standing or being at a factory OP(?).
To actually see differences between different CST skills you have to make certain that (a) the actual data set is "safe", means the possible deviation from your calculated probability is low and (b) that this deviation is low enough to allow for comparisons with data sets of different CST skills, for example. A couple hundred samples are far from that, I was aiming at 10-20k, and that's the lower bound for giving estimations about the 5 slot chances.
By the way, while often neglected, the fail chance is part of being a good CST, too, because fails cost time and resources. Look at the Holy Shelter with 150 CST skill, for example: To make 450 of them I had used 450+24 = 474 blueprints and started the build process 450+24+115 = 589 times. Read: I could have made almost 600 Holy Shelters in the same time under perfect conditions (assuming the BPs were available). That failing started at a TL 1/2 of my CST skill, I dunno how it is nowadays (which means with 230+ you are in a rather safe position if that is still the case).
Another note: To get all this working we have to assume an evenly distributed random number generator. I assume the one used in Neocron fulfills this goal more or less. This also implies many players feel cheated by it, because for them "randomness" means differing outcomes each time. But that's not how it works. Also, players have problems averaging out the results they get. Our brains are good at remembering runs of good and bad results, but putting all of this together isn't something our brains are made for. Therefore, statements about "sweet spots" in CST skill and similar things should always be taken with a grain of salt unless they are backed with actual data.
Darkana you're too damn smart. :p
Is it just me or do the slot numbers drift upwards with relation to TL on that first graph? Higher TL = higher chance for slots? 8|
I wanted to add that that thing about previously csted things magically having better stats after patch was most likely my imagination.. although when those things were made I had ~155 cst.
Darkana you're too damn smart. :pHaving studied at a university had to be good for at least something ... :lol:
Is it just me or do the slot numbers drift upwards with relation to TL on that first graph? Higher TL = higher chance for slots? 8|No. Dark gray = no slots. But yes, you can see a tendency in the diagrams already (increase of no slots, decrease of slots towards higher TLs).
The legends are not that easy to decipher on white background, hmm ... with the standard colors (red, green, blue, you name it) the diagrams look terrible, though :p I changed the legends a bit.
Ah I was looking at it wrong. Slotlessness drifts upwards. I blame it on lack of sleep. :p
So, go for CST 230 and spread the rest around...?
Or put it all in CST?
Two things: Purpose dictates setup. The higher your CST skill, the better.
I have a CST char myself, and dumped all (but the remaining 3) points into her CST skill. With LE she has 239 CST, and that's by using her pre 2.2 setup. If changing the setup will raise that even higher, I'm going for it :)
On the other hand, if you plan on putting some of your INT points into something else than CST: Do whatever you think is best.
Maybe if it were a five sided coin and the results were almost identicle with both thumbs :p I know what Thanatos has said how it works but it just doesn't seem right when constructing things in game. I just did 100 tl85 holy heals with 193 construct, then did 100 more with 323 construct and and got almost exactly the same number of slots both times, its just all retarded anyways :p
Thing is that without knowing anything how exactly slot chances and rare quality are affected by cst, int, dex, repair and what else, you'd prolly have to run batches of 1000+ items to confirm higher chances with better skills.
But the devs stated that there definately is an increase in quality (on rares) and slot chances with an increasing cst skill.
You just don't know if there still is some sort of cap with all the various skills. Also, if it works similar to combat skills, the higher you get, the more you gotta invest for less and less effect.
And last but not least, i wouldn't really try a cst skill above 255. It probably flips over back to zero after that without showing it in your skill window. :lol:
Thing is that without knowing anything how exactly slot chances and rare quality are affected by cst, int, dex, repair and what else, you'd prolly have to run batches of 1000+ items to confirm higher chances with better skills.
But the devs stated that there definately is an increase in quality (on rares) and slot chances with an increasing cst skill.
You just don't know if there still is some sort of cap with all the various skills. Also, if it works similar to combat skills, the higher you get, the more you gotta invest for less and less effect.
And last but not least, i wouldn't really try a cst skill above 255. It probably flips over back to zero after that without showing it in your skill window. :lol:
lol, the whole thing makes me dizzy tbh. I'm done even trying to figure it out :p
Darkana you're too damn smart. :p
It read like a lot of my psychology textbooks and research studies, aside from the neocron content.
What'd you study, Darkana?
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