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Chenoa
07-11-07, 15:25
As announced (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=140955), the new storyline "The Chosen One" is starting today (you can find the 1st article in the VotR). It will sneak up on you and get stronger and stronger. I will post important updates in this thread from time to time, but not all articles like before, as sometimes it was really too much. Keep your eyes open, read the ingame newsletters and the magazines regularly and you won't miss a thing.

Post any experiences you've had or rumours in this thread, and discuss "The Chosen One" (but please stay always in character, no ooc).
You can always post ideas and have discussions regarding the articles in each of the magazines, as comments.

Faid
07-11-07, 16:31
I only know one "Chosen One" and he's a ruthless, coldblooded sex machine with a bit of a sweet-tooth. I shall look into this further...

Chenoa
07-11-07, 18:12
I only know one "Chosen One" and he's a ruthless, coldblooded sex machine with a bit of a sweet-tooth. I shall look into this further...

If you will read the announcement completely you will find:

(A connection between the title and runner names is not intended or anything, but a coincidence. The characters of this new storyline will be definitely noticeable!)

Faid
08-11-07, 02:36
I know, I just thought it was awesome :D

Riddle
09-11-07, 00:06
I, one of the leading weaponsmiths in Biotech, will continue to supply weapons to Neocron citizens. I do not take idle threats from runners or Factions alike!

Tangent Technologies, shame about this ;) http://www.neocronicle.com/?p=249 but don't come dropping threats at my door!! I will be enhancing security as i will continue to serve the needs of my customers.

As for the E28-30 it handles well but i see the flaw.......

Chenoa
11-11-07, 10:46
(ooc: Is it really hard to stay on topic and IC instead of spamming here?)

Glok
11-11-07, 11:11
(ooc: I would imagine it is nearly impossible to not scream "I am the Chosen One!")

Glok
11-11-07, 18:13
I think I'm Tiamat's husband and now she wants to make love. I'm scared shitless. There's no way I can predict what will happen if I fuck her.

Brammers
12-11-07, 14:54
Hmm, lots going on that shouldn't be...

Tangent caught red handed and up to no good at North Star, although myself and Kenshi it did leave a very high body count of dead Tangent runners there. Tangent only have to blame Bud Johnson for his lack of ability to send emails to the right person. He saved us hackers a lot of work!

And now Crahn is upto their old propaganda tricks again. The latest article on the VotR is very "illuminating" (http://www.votr-mag.com/?p=251)

delphinius
05-02-08, 07:16
I think that it is high time that Tangent be considered an enemy to the people. This is going beyond just being an enemy to the alliance, and the DOY. This is cause for ALL factions to band together. I move to make any member of Tangent a shoot on site target.

Whose with me?

Kanedax
05-02-08, 15:26
I completely disagree with your assessment that we, Tangent Technologies, are a threat to the people. What have we ever done to harm the people? We have developed the security systems that keep them safe, armed and enhanced the copbots that patrol the streets of this fine city. The only forceful action we have taken was to avenge the wrongs done to us by those sniveling cretins at BioTech.

DrRisk
05-02-08, 17:36
In Tangent we believe.

Kanedax
05-02-08, 17:47
In guns we trust.

VoWZaRiCK
05-02-08, 18:01
That's right, Tangent means no harm to anyone besides those that refuse to live by the rules of the city and those that aim to wrong Tangent. Tangent will take the necessary steps to deal with these issues, but anyone that cooperates with Tangent will be completely safe. In fact Tangent is even working on projects to improve the living experience for every single runner in neocron. Keep your eyes open, you might be surprised.

Dr Vowzarick
Tangent Technologies Council Chairman

delphinius
05-02-08, 18:36
How do you still think Tangent is honorable? They attempted to make a weapon that would kill anyone with an implant in painfully and permanently. That's not fair fighting, that's torturous horridity.

Kanedax
05-02-08, 18:39
It's called necessity. Imagine if a rebellion rose up in the city its self posing a threat to all that Neocron stands for. This weapon could have the potential to prevent many deaths on the side of the righteous.

(OOC: I love playing the contemptable self-righteous asshole :D)

flib
05-02-08, 18:44
Tangent attempted to create a weapon that would cause permanent death.
The E28-30 was designed to disable the implants of a target and then kill them. Without implants, the target cannot be replicated by a GeneReplicator, thus causing permanent death.

The E28-30 was a serious threat to the people. I thank Science that Biotech was able to infiltrate your headquarters and destroy all of the information of it.

The E28-30 was a weapon of terrorism and oppression. Terrorism and oppression are used to suppress free minds. Only free minds can form a free society.

delphinius
05-02-08, 18:45
It just proves that Tangent Technologies is willing to destroy everything to gain power. They need to be stopped while they still can. What's to stop them, after destroying the resistance, to destroying the other factions of Neocron to gain power.

Pro-City and Anti-City factions alike, I call an appeal to you. We MUST stop Tangent Technologies while we still can, before they can destroy all of us.

Remember, only free minds can for form a free society, TT is trying to destroy those free minds.

Jest
05-02-08, 18:52
Tangent is the unleased pitbull of the City Administration. In Tangent, they have found some one to do their dirty work with limited accountability. Any objections from City Administration for this new weapon are purely for show.

Regardless, the weapon shows a complete lack of appreciation for human life. Weapons are necessity of the world we live in, but to design a weapon that results in the complete annihilation of a human being is disgusting. It won't keep you safe in the wastes. It won't protect your home. It won't be used to provide food. It is a tool of fear and control, plain and simple. Considering the level to which my fellow Angels are augmented, I can't see this as any other thing besides a full out declaration of war from Tangent.

We will fight Tangent where we can, but I call on the citizens of Neocron to rise up. Free your selves from control, and stand against Tangent. Stand against them with your credits, your mind, and most importantly, your voice. By your silence you damn us.

VoWZaRiCK
05-02-08, 18:59
We at Tangent are bussinessmen, and we honour our contract with City Admin. The political and ethical guidance is left up to them. If CA feels such weapon systems are necessary we will do whatever it takes to develop and produce them. Tangent also completely trusts the CA legal system which would prevent abuse of this weapon system.

Kanedax
05-02-08, 19:14
While I dont relish the idea of permanent destruction of life it is a necessary evil. Hard times require hard decisions made by persons with their eyes open enough to see the necessity for the hard decisions to be made. In these times of uncertainty perhaps a few sacrifices need to be made in order to protect the many.

delphinius
05-02-08, 20:39
No, you at Tangent are not business men. You are murderers. And you are oppressors, and you are nothing more than mere cowards. You deserve what ever fate may befall you. I hope it is death by your own, torturous, painful, weapon. And I will make it my personal mission, and I hope others join me, in making sure your faction will fall.

Only Free minds can form a free society.

StevenJ
05-02-08, 20:45
No, you at Tangent are not business men. You are murderers. And you are oppressors, and you are nothing more than mere cowards.I prefer the term "realist"

You deserve what ever fate may befall you. I hope it is death by your own, torturous, painful, weapon.So in some circumstances, permanent death is warranted? I agree.

We cannot pretend this technology doesn't exist. I am surprised that an 'angel' wants to censor science. We cannot turn a blind eye to the possibility that someone else may try to create a similar weapon. It's possible, and the technology exists. Given that, I'd want City Admin to have it first. It was imperative to be first, but some traitors put their 'reputation' first, with an attack to cover up their bad workmanship.

Now this weakness of implants has been exposed, surely the onus is on BioTech to raise their game. Imagine if one of the non-legitimate factions created this weapon now...

delphinius
05-02-08, 20:56
There's a difference between censoring science and stopping one faction from attaining the power of life and death. That power is best left to those who understand science in general, not someone who only understands the science of death and murder. You know nothing of science, you know nothing, your brain is too small to comprehend the damage you may cause.

And Permanent death is always wrong, but death by your weapon is the only just response to attempting to control the world.

VoWZaRiCK
05-02-08, 20:59
No, you at Tangent are not business men. You are murderers. And you are oppressors, and you are nothing more than mere cowards. You deserve what ever fate may befall you. I hope it is death by your own, torturous, painful, weapon. And I will make it my personal mission, and I hope others join me, in making sure your faction will fall.

Only Free minds can form a free society.

As I said, Tangent makes no political or ethical decisions. We only provide the means for others to make theirs. CA happens to be our major single contract and as such we are not the ones that murder or oppress (assuming such activities take place on our side, let's not get into the attrocities of Biotech and factions enemy to CA) since we don't set the agenda.

Guns don't kill people; people, genetically engineered people, cyborgs and bots do!

delphinius
05-02-08, 21:01
No, you enable the CA. You know the CA is oppressing, and you are working with them. You are their lapdogs. You eat from their hand and they control you.

You are truly the scum.

flib
05-02-08, 21:02
As I said, Tangent makes no political or ethical decisions. We only provide the means for others to make theirs. CA happens to be our major single contract and as such we are not the ones that murder or oppress (assuming such activities take place on our side, let's not get into the attrocities of Biotech and factions enemy to CA) since we don't set the agenda.

Guns don't kill people; people, genetically engineered people, cyborgs and bots do!
By blindly helping the CityAdmin with their oppression, you are just as responsible for it as they are.

VoWZaRiCK
05-02-08, 21:02
I have yet to see proof of CA oppressing and murdering. I have however seen such activities by CA's enemies. Trying to control our world by violence.

Kanedax
05-02-08, 21:03
Your personal mission eh? Welcome to the Thunderdome.

Riddle
05-02-08, 21:31
The Master Weaponsmith who taught me my trade many moons ago, left me upon his death a single book.

As I dusted it off, the title undecipherable, I found within it's pages a single line marked for emphasis.

That line has echoed in my mind over all these years every time I fashion a new weapon..............make of it what you will runners.


"I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend"

flib
05-02-08, 21:31
I have yet to see proof of CA oppressing and murdering. I have however seen such activities by CA's enemies. Trying to control our world by violence.
If you're referring to Crahn, then yes, in this case, we agree complete. The Crahn Sect is a murderous cult set out to regain power.

However, if you're referring to the Twilight Guardian, then I'm afraid you're wrong. The Guardians only want to free Neocron from the oppressive hand of the CityAdmin, and hopefully their puppets, Tangent Technologies.

As for the Fallen Angels, we aren't even enemies of CityAdmin. We have concluded that it is most beneficial to have a neutral relationship with them.

delphinius
05-02-08, 21:32
The Master Weaponsmith who taught me my trade many moons ago, left me upon his death a single book.

As I dusted it off, the title undecipherable, I found within it's pages a single line marked for emphasis.

That line has echoed in my mind over all these years every time I fashion a new weapon..............make of it what you will runners.


"I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend"

Can I ask what you mean by this?

Jest
05-02-08, 21:35
I am surprised that an 'angel' wants to censor science. We cannot turn a blind eye to the possibility that someone else may try to create a similar weapon. It's possible, and the technology exists. Given that, I'd want City Admin to have it first. It was imperative to be first, but some traitors put their 'reputation' first, with an attack to cover up their bad workmanship.

Now this weakness of implants has been exposed, surely the onus is on BioTech to raise their game. Imagine if one of the non-legitimate factions created this weapon now...
Scientific advancement without responsibility? Tell that to the thousands of mutants in the wastes. Your own city sewers are swamped with them. All it took was people like you to rationalize your actions.

The weapon has only one purpose, to hurt BioTech's bottom line. The sale of implants would plumet. How sad that you treat life as nothing more than a tool to increase profit. Bussiness as usual for Damion Jordan and his ilk. The fact that it will be an effective weapon against Fallen Angels is probably just the icing on the cake.

VoWZaRiCK
05-02-08, 21:43
I was indeed referring to Crahn and the Twilight Guardian.

While some see Twilight Guardian as a liberator, others see it as a potential oppressor. The difference between them is merely a subjective discrimination made by a prejudiced mind. Before I came to Tangent Technologies to become Council Chairman I have served in CA under Reza, as director of the NIA and as Council Chairman of City Admin. I can guarantuee you that City Admin are not oppressors and that they do their best to protect the runners of neocron. One must admit that the large crime waves and other security threats in our world have not made this an easy task. And sometimes this task requires secretive acts and rough repression, but as said before, this is a necessary evil. Please look at the City Admin rulers with some understanding, their position is not exactly an easy one.

Riddle
05-02-08, 21:58
Can I ask what you mean by this?

As i said.


..............make of it what you will runners.

You should take your own meaning from such a profound statement , he was truly a master in so many ways, but for me........

All this talk of the E28-30......Biotech did not destroy all the plans as first thought.

As I brought it into existence, I thought it a thing of beauty as all my creations are. But I do not love these weapons, I love what they defend and in my deep solitary thoughts, a place yet untouched by my teaching, I begin to wonder who is on the side of right......

VoWZaRiCK
05-02-08, 22:08
Logan you have a lot of nerve talking like that while still being opposed to Tangent. You reason the same as we do.

Riddle
05-02-08, 22:10
You reason the same as we do.

Then why are we opposed Mr. Chairman?............

VoWZaRiCK
05-02-08, 22:12
perhaps you are not where you truly belong?

StevenJ
05-02-08, 22:28
Scientific advancement without responsibility? Tell that to the thousands of mutants in the wastes. Your own city sewers are swamped with them. All it took was people like you to rationalize your actions.

The weapon has only one purpose, to hurt BioTech's bottom line. The sale of implants would plumet. How sad that you treat life as nothing more than a tool to increase profit. Bussiness as usual for Damion Jordan and his ilk. The fact that it will be an effective weapon against Fallen Angels is probably just the icing on the cake.Let's inject some objectivity and realism here. We can wave our hands and furrow our brows as much as we like; the fact of the matter is, this technology is possible. To ignore that, to sweep these troubling facts under the carpet... now that would be criminally irresponsible, and we would be doing ouserlves a great disservice.

The very fact that this kind of permanent death is possible means we should confront this situation before somebody else does. Imagine if HIOB or Regant had access to this - which isn't a Tangent development so much as a Tangent discovery based on the second-rate nature of implants - when they were on the scene... who is to say that future threats won't have this style of weapon?

It exists, it's possible. I'd rather our hand was on the trigger.

The moment we pick and choose which difficult truths we confront and face is the moment we risk everything we have achieved.

Kanedax
05-02-08, 23:28
Steven hits on exactly the point I was trying to make, better for us to have this weaponry than someone with a sinister plot. Having served under the City Admin and Tangent Technologies for an extensive amount of time, most of it in combat, I can say that these two factions have never perpetrated a violent act needlessly nor without precaution and strict orders to prevent the harm of innocents.

There are idealists who dream about a perfect world and a perfect system, then there are realists who understand that the world and the system will never be perfect. I count myself among the latter and while there may be a few bad decisions made here and there the positive far outweighs the negative. Tangent and the CA serve the people as best they can. We work to PROTECT you.

I would be glad to see BioTech no longer considered our enemy. I would be glad for peace but alas it seems that most people would rather fight over petty slights and blind themselves with radical ideas rather than open their eyes and realize that things could be much, much worse.

Jest
06-02-08, 00:10
The very fact that this kind of permanent death is possible means we should confront this situation before somebody else does.
Agreed. Confront the situation by taking the information to BioTech and letting them develop a new series of implants that protect against such weapons. But that would only help BioTech, and not Tangent.

I wonder what your master Damion Jordan thinks about you trying to independently make peace with your rival company?

delphinius
06-02-08, 00:14
Agreed. Confront the situation by taking the information to BioTech and letting them develop a new series of implants that protect against such weapons. But that would only help BioTech, and not Tangent.

I wonder what your master Damion Jordan thinks about you trying to independently make peace with your rival company?

I believe this should be done, but severe damage should be dealt and Tangent should be deleted. Tangent has only proven itself to be dangers with this act.

StevenJ
06-02-08, 00:26
Agreed. Confront the situation by taking the information to BioTech and letting them develop a new series of implants that protect against such weapons. But that would only help BioTech, and not Tangent.

I wonder what your master Damion Jordan thinks about you trying to independently make peace with your rival company?City Admin and the NCPD wanted the weapons, not the flaw fixed. Had TT wanted to achieve higher political goals, would the faction not have developed this weapon in secret and destroyed BioTech violently? The whole process was fully transparent, as far as I can tell :P

TT said they would be giving the weapon to the NCPD, not the public... As for making peace, I personally think that BioTech should be charged with criminal negligence :D

Jest
06-02-08, 01:27
City Admin and the NCPD wanted the weapons, not the flaw fixed. Had TT wanted to achieve higher political goals, would the faction not have developed this weapon in secret and destroyed BioTech violently? The whole process was fully transparent, as far as I can tell :P

TT said they would be giving the weapon to the NCPD, not the public... As for making peace, I personally think that BioTech should be charged with criminal negligence :D
Yes it was transparent, and had to be in order to be effective. Without transparence, City Admin and Tangent could keep the people of the city in fear. Without transparence, such a weapon would not hurt BioTech's sales.

The fact that they are giving the weapon to only the NCPD just furthers my point. Only those in control will have the power while the rest remain in fear that their so-called benevolent protectors don't use it them. Though I'm sure Tangent will at least have access to the technology for private use. Try to tell me otherwise and it will just prove how blind you are.

But I'm sure you will have some excuse for all of this. If not, I'm sure an official Tangent memo to all employees will be forthcoming. You can just get your talking points from that.

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 02:43
I wonder what your master Damion Jordan thinks about you trying to independently make peace with your rival company?

Nobody is trying to make peace here. Of course we would all prefer peace, but this peace must have its conditions. And too much has been invested for these conditions not to be met. There will never just suddenly be peace unless the issue is resolved in a definitive way. I can think of a few possible ways...

delphinius
06-02-08, 03:03
I can think of one way to create peace, and keep the status quo of non-permanent death that we have: Remove Tangent from existence.

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 03:41
Although I obviously don't accept the second part of your solution ;) the first part is also no longer possible. The technology exists, we know it, because we had it. We don't have it anymore, but nobody can guarantee that nobody else has it or will get it. It's like a really really long time ago when the atomic weapons that ruined our world were first designed. Once the technology was out there someone had to be the first to have it in order to prevent the abuse of the technology by the other side. I am certain that the NCPD nor Tangent ever wished to see this weapon being used. Permanent death is a scary thing, but once the technology was known it was absolutely necessary for the NCPD to get a hold of it firt (through our Tangent research).

No matter what we do, the possibility of weapons causing permanent death will now be a constant threat in this world.

Do not blame Tangent for creating this exploit of the Biotech implants, we had no choice since if we didn't come up with the exploit, maybe the Crahn sect would have (for example).

One wonders why nobody stops to think about the danger Biotech has put every single one of its clients in. It is unacceptable that a major corporation endangers its complete clientel in such a dangerous way!

delphinius
06-02-08, 05:28
Don't you dare try to pass the blame off to Biotech. This is your fault. Tangent Technologies is to blame, now, for anyone who is permanently killed. I hope that the people who are charged with avenging your first victim make you realize how much of a mistake you have made. You have created a weapon that can permanently kill all people, and then gave it to the one group of people who would be willing to destroy the entirety of the world just to stay in power. Even Crahn isn't as bad as the City-Admin, and you blatantly gave them a weapon that they will use. Eventually, you will pay for this. By helping create it you have signed your own death warrant.

Reaction77
06-02-08, 12:56
I find it ironic delphinius that you claim to want peace, yet all you can talk about is death and destruction. You fallen angels remind me of the communists that threw our planet into termoil in the first place.

Brammers
06-02-08, 13:59
Fallen Angels as communists? I very much doubt it.

If the Fallen Angels where communists, I wouldn't be able to run my company at a profit. Also I wouldn't be able to freely speak my mind without someone putting a gun to my head. Flib and Delphinus are examples of Fallen Angels freely speaking their minds without fear of oppression.

However I am in agreement with my allies in Fallen Angels, and my friends in Biotech. E28-30 is a weapon that must be destroyed, and if I have to turn Tangent HQ into a pile of rubble, then thats what will happen.

Brammers - CEO Phoenix Ltd.

ooc: Nice to see the old faction vs faction arguments again!

Kanedax
06-02-08, 15:05
I think perhaps the solution to this problem is not through anger or threats but reasonable conversation. Delphinius you obviously have made up your mind and that is unfortunate. I know that the leaders among Tangent dont particularly enjoy this rift within the city.

Kanedax
06-02-08, 15:10
E28-30 is a weapon that must be destroyed, and if I have to turn Tangent HQ into a pile of rubble, then thats what will happen.


Brammers allow me to pose a hypothetical question.

Suppose in the future a threat appears with the same or similar technology to the E28-30. What then will happen if the technology from our side is destroyed? We will not have a means to sufficiently combat the opposing technology and we will be crushed. Many will die. I dont know about you but I know that is not a scenario I want to be even remotely possible.

Brammers
06-02-08, 16:10
Brammers allow me to pose a hypothetical question.

Suppose in the future a threat appears with the same or similar technology to the E28-30. What then will happen if the technology from our side is destroyed? We will not have a means to sufficiently combat the opposing technology and we will be crushed. Many will die. I dont know about you but I know that is not a scenario I want to be even remotely possible.

You summed up the scenario thar we are all facing right now.

Currently there is no known opposing technology to combat against the E28-30. And I doubt Tangent would be short of weapons to take out anyone if it was facing the same scenario as I am.

In any battle, there will be casualties, it's a price that is paid by members of both our factions for being at war.

If you don't want to be involved in this scenario, it's time for you to stand up to your faction leaders, and say "No to the E28-30"

However at this point in time, Tangent has the E28-30 and we will take whatever measures to protect our exisitance.

Brammers - CEO Phoenix Ltd.

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 16:35
you people have to realise that this weapon is not supposed to be used. It is a deterrent, and all your reactions only prove how good it works.

delphinius
06-02-08, 17:07
If I must, I will remove every implant from my body, grab my Judge, and come kill you myself. This war can be fought without implants. This weapon MUST be destroyed, and although it is regrettable, there is no peaceful solution.

Recall the SALT-17 treaty. It was a dramatic failure. There was the peaceful solution, and in Tangent, I see that happening again. A promise to not use a weapon, followed by complete and total world destruction.

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 17:12
we have no promises to make here, nor do we have out finger at the button. When the system is ready it will be placed with the NCPD and Tangent will have no further control over it. The responsability will be in the hands of the trustable NCPD people.

flib
06-02-08, 18:46
you people have to realise that this weapon is not supposed to be used. It is a deterrent, and all your reactions only prove how good it works.
Deterrence is a form of oppression, and you know just how we feel about that, so of course we're going to react this way.
However, our radical reaction shows just how well it's not working. You should know that we Fallen Angels usually don't take a radical approach, but a threat like this has called that out.

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 18:52
As it is the NCPD that ordered the system it is not a means of oppression, but of repression against criminals.

flib
06-02-08, 19:01
Now you're just arguing semantics.
You call it repressing criminals, I call it oppressing freedom.

delphinius
06-02-08, 19:02
You are truly blind. As blind as the psi-monks once were. You are the scum, the very reason the world is a bad place. I await the day at which you will die at my hand.

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 19:06
If my reasoning is semantics, then what is yours? It is a simple fact that certain people don't obey the laws of Neocron. As soon as they obey the laws and the killing doesn't stop you will be proven right. But until then CA and the city factions are on the right side of this.

flib
06-02-08, 19:07
Shall we get into the argument of how laws are also tools of oppression?

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 19:11
What law is oppressive? The one that says you can not run around armed in certain city sectors to kill innocent bystanders? The one that organizes democratic Faction elections? The one that punishes you for trying to overthrow the regime that is approved by all city factions?

Kanedax
06-02-08, 21:05
Shall we get into the argument of how laws are also tools of oppression?

So you would abolish law then? You're no different than the Anarchy Breed. You wish for a lawless society, its laughable. In what derranged state of mind do you see that actually being successful? Human beings are no different than most animals, if law was to be destroyed there would be no order, all would be plunged in to chaos and it would be survival of the fittest, the weak, the ones unable to protect themselves would be slaughtered. That is exactly what we are working with the government to prevent.

flib
06-02-08, 22:03
I'm not saying that laws should be abolished, I'm saying that they should be used properly.
They shouldn't be used as ways to control people, they should be used as ways to protect people.

The laws of Neocron are a means of control, not safety.

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 22:18
I'm stil waiting for a reason why...

It's easy saying things are so without having to back it up.

flib
06-02-08, 22:30
Corruption, power, money, beer.

All the classics.

VoWZaRiCK
06-02-08, 22:52
no, you misunderstood my question.

I was not asking for you to give me some bad things totally unrelated to Tangent or City Admin. I was asking you to give an example of oppressive laws in Neocron.

StevenJ
06-02-08, 23:45
The laws of Neocron are a means of control, not safety.With drug-pushing pimps in PP, genotoxic mobs in the north, chemical leaks and explosions in the only other (former) city in the area [shows that Rodriguez had a firm grip on irresponsible science :lol: ], a toxic wasteland patrolled by 6' spiders (some mechanical), cockroaches that attack on sight, attacks from AI personas and mutated megalomaniacs within the past year, organised crime, vengeful religious zealots with control over fire in their hands, fire spewing animals, floating bombing fortresses that attack all and sundry, posionous scorpions and...

MECHANICAL TURTLES :wtf:

on the loose, I'd say that more control equals more saftey right now! This is the realism I speak of. God help us if we were governed by a flip-flopping weasel of a politician, more obsessed with popularity and approval ratings than the very real issues of safety during these dangerous times.

I am a conscientious supporter. I'm grateful to CA and the NCPD, and their safety measures. Our city is, whilst not as safe as most would like, still inhabitable.

Jest
07-02-08, 00:02
The heavy hand of the City Administration is apparent to any one who is willing to see. Newsflash, there is not a jail for the "criminals" of Neocron. I use the term loosely of course, because the definition of the word criminal in Neocron is any one that opposes Lioon Reza. The lucky criminals are killed instantly by the CopBot's shoot first mentality. Those not so lucky are sent to the government's brain washing facility in the wastelands known as Mc5.

The world is indeed a dangerous place. But yet we in Tech Haven seem to be safe without becoming slaves. We have the freedoms you could only dream of having, and yet we live and thrive. The greatest threat Tech Haven has had, in fact, was the seige by City Administration.

StevenJ
07-02-08, 00:16
There may not be a (working) jail in Neocron, but I have already stated I support City Admin's policies. Recent events have shown that Neocron is our last safe haven from the threats of our time. This is thanks to the steady hand of our leaders.

Also, Tech Haven is not your real home. It has not been your home for some time. You are "only guests", according to your Resistance Officer. Your home is in ruins, thanks to your leader's lack of control.


But as we are only guests in TechHaven we will adopt the habits of the Angels already living in TechHaven.

Jest
07-02-08, 00:57
Also, Tech Haven is not your real home. It has not been your home for some time. You are "only guests", according to your Resistance Officer. Your home is in ruins, thanks to your leader's lack of control.
Don't presume to speak for me. I have never lived in Dome of York. The only home I knew was Neocron. The sect of Fallen Angel leaders who sought power learned their lesson the hard way. But even when they were gone, Tech Haven remained strong, it remained safe, and it remained free. As it will continue to do so. Pointing out the mistakes of a few does not refute the fact that Tech Haven is just as safe as Neocron. And without a totalitarian government that classifies the political opposition as criminals.

VoWZaRiCK
07-02-08, 17:35
Really? Is that why I was stopped in TH yesterday just because I was Tangent? Seems you people do the same as CA does in the city, only even worse now.

And on the issue of no jails, that's because the NCPD method of operations is based on an immediate removal of the threat, not on rehabilitation. For the safety of other runners it is better for Copbots to engage immediately so that the harm done by criminals can be kept at a minimum.

flib
07-02-08, 22:11
Really? Is that why I was stopped in TH yesterday just because I was Tangent? Seems you people do the same as CA does in the city, only even worse now.Instead of killing you, like the CityAdmin, or even you, would have, I stopped you and asked you what your business was. You then happily took care of it and left, as requested.
I stop enemy runners in Tech Haven and allow them to get on with their business then leave, I don't resort to violence unless they refuse to cooperate.


no, you misunderstood my question.

I was not asking for you to give me some bad things totally unrelated to Tangent or City Admin. I was asking you to give an example of oppressive laws in Neocron.I was referring to the motivation and point behind the laws, not the laws themself.

However, since you're so insistent, I'm going to bring up something that's been brought up already: the immediate execution of criminals without any form of trial. How is that just? What if the person isn't truly a criminal? Ever heard of corporate espionage? I would hope so, with the recent surplus of it between Tangent and Biotech.

If you really fail to see the corruption in your government, then so be it. We can just stay on the topic of Tech Haven.


Also, Tech Haven is not your real home. It has not been your home for some time. You are "only guests", according to your Resistance Officer. Your home is in ruins, thanks to your leader's lack of control.Firstly, it never was our responsibility to control the bigotric Crahn Sect. They performed some secret experiment that we still have no information on.

Secondly Tech Haven was our home until we decided to leave it for the Trader Angels so that we could focus on our more radical ambitions. That and when TechHaven exploded, the Trader Angels and Fallen Angels had a chance to exchange ideas and realize that we aren't so dissimilar.


This cooperation is increasing in general. This shows clearly that we, and the Angels from TechHaven, share more of the fundamental ideas than thought in the beginning. They are even the same. The only difference between us is that we live in the Dome, and they in our place of origin – but as victims of circumstance.Much better that we reside with those who are the same as us, than with the treacherous Black Dragons or scheming Crahn Sect.

VoWZaRiCK
07-02-08, 22:26
I must inform you that the NCPD does not harm you within city limits as long as you do not pose a violent threat. Nor have I ever halted enemy runners in the city to interfere with their bussiness.

Plus you mention the lack of a trial... that is untrue. There is a trial, it is conducted on the NCPD computer system during the few seconds between the copbot witnessing your crime and him opening fire on you. This computerized trial can not be tampered with, it is not subject to human subjectivity and thus is the fairest trial one could hope for.

Plus it has come to my attention that you even get into trouble with your own TH security as well. Perhaps it's not the NCPD but you that's causing the problems here.

StevenJ
07-02-08, 22:44
Confirmed, the TH turrets shoot on sight of an enemy. Where is my trial? I had no weapon drawn, even. They cannot even have suspected I was going to commit attacks of violence, not on an LEd PPU :p

I'm not claiming it was your responsibility to control the experiments by the monks, I'm not laying the blame on your doorstep. This is purely a very handy and revealing example. I'm saying that somebody should have been in control. Someone with the balls to make difficult, sometimes unpopular decisions. There are what, 5,000 people left alive in this hemisphere? We need a leader, not a politician. A jury like in times past would take up 0.24% of the population, for one trial alone. Who knows how many thousands died in the Dome's latest bumbling disaster?

flib
08-02-08, 00:31
I must inform you that the NCPD does not harm you within city limits as long as you do not pose a violent threat. Nor have I ever halted enemy runners in the city to interfere with their bussiness.My apologies, my use of the word "you" was actually to describe the plethora of Tangent's runners.


Plus you mention the lack of a trial... that is untrue. There is a trial, it is conducted on the NCPD computer system during the few seconds between the copbot witnessing your crime and him opening fire on you. This computerized trial can not be tampered with, it is not subject to human subjectivity and thus is the fairest trial one could hope for.Contrary to popular belief, computers are prone to error and can therefore, make unethical decisions.
The logical choice is not always the ethical choice.


Plus it has come to my attention that you even get into trouble with your own TH security as well. Perhaps it's not the NCPD but you that's causing the problems here.Quite the contrary.
Because of the suddenly-imminent uninhabitability of our previous "home", we had to quickly pack up everything we could and evacuate.
We deemed that there were more important things for us to pack up than our Sentryguns, which was obviously a mistake.
Because our lack of Sentryguns, we had to improvise for security and pull out a few Copbots from the wastelands and reprogram them. Due to their inferior programming, we were only able to program them to attack if a weapon is detected.

Rest assured, our R&D department is currently working on manufacturing more Sentryguns.


Confirmed, the TH turrets shoot on sight of an enemy. Where is my trial? I had no weapon drawn, even. They cannot even have suspected I was going to commit attacks of violence, not on an LEd PPU Well you were obviously trespassing.
After the explosion of TechHaven by an anonymous party, I don't think we can accept unauthorized enemy runners onto the premises.


StevenJ]I'm not claiming it was your responsibility to control the experiments by the monks, I'm not laying the blame on your doorstep. This is purely a very handy and revealing example. I'm saying that somebody should have been in control. Someone with the balls to make difficult, sometimes unpopular decisions. There are what, 5,000 people left alive in this hemisphere? We need a leader, not a politician. A jury like in times past would take up 0.24% of the population, for one trial alone. Who knows how many thousands died in the Dome's latest bumbling disaster?It doesn't matter now, we're better of in Tech Haven now anyways. It's none of our business.
Worst case scenario now is they blow up Neocron!
I guess it's time for you to step up, Mr. Leader.

StevenJ
08-02-08, 00:59
We deemed that there were more important things for us to pack up than our Sentryguns, which was obviously a mistake... Rest assured, our R&D department is currently working on manufacturing more Sentryguns... Well you were obviously trespassing... After the explosion of TechHaven by an anonymous party, I don't think we can accept unauthorized enemy runners onto the premises.That's the spirit!

(OOC: I do not support the NRA! :lol: )

Jest
08-02-08, 01:24
Gasp! The turrets shoot at known enemies within our home? Next you are going to tell me that the Twilight Guardians don't let City Admin walk freely through their Canyon, and that Tsunami and Black Dragon occasionaly fight each other in the streets of Pepper Park. Goodness, you are blowing my mind.

We keep Tech Haven safe by keeping our enemies out. You keep Neocron safe by controlling desent from known allies. Your NCPD acts as judge, jury, and executioner for any thing and everything they deem as against Lioon Reza. In Tech Haven, I can freely criticize my leaders and their judgement, and do so frequently. You do not have the same right, and if you believe you do, you are truly delusional.

The NCPD wants to use the weapon as a method of further control and fear among its OWN CITIZENS. Tangent is just along for ride to further hurt BioTech, and further help themselves.

delphinius
08-02-08, 02:31
Tangent is just along for ride to further hurt BioTech, and further help themselves.

My Good man! You are entirely right in your quotes, with the exception of that quoted bit. Tangent will not be helping themselves. What Tangent is too thick to realise is that Tangent will be among the hurt in this. But I have, recently as you may have noticed, not been fighting this fight so much. Because I am waiting for the day Tangent decides to act sensibly, as if that will ever happen, and oppose the NCPD, and then permanently get killed by their own weapon. It will be a very sweet day of justice.

flib
08-02-08, 02:59
Jest, you are much better at making the points I'm trying to make than I am! =/

Kanedax
08-02-08, 09:15
Tangent Technologies could not care less about BioTechs profits, as a TT runner I can say this honestly. If Biotech were willing to go about their business and not interfere with ours we would let them be. Our aggression towards them is only the fault of their underhanded methods. We, as a company, honor other companies and only when they prove a threat to us or our kin will we strike out. Tell me this, if someone who 'morally objected' to something the Fallen Angels did decided to use underhanded methods instead of communication to object to said hypothetical problem reared their ugly head, would you not strike back in a similar fashion? As the readings from the ancient books of the New Testament of the ancient religion of Christianity said, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

(OOC: I am not a religious person so feel free to argument that as you will, I will not be offended.)

flib
08-02-08, 14:11
What exactly are you arguing?
You seem to be going on about how you're righteous or something, not actually arguing any of the given points.

Also, bullshit that you don't care about Biotech's profits. Your main goal is to prove that your profits are better than their's.

In case you didn't know this: Tangent and Biotech are both owned by Robert Jordan.
Robert Jordan gave control of Biotech to his son Seymour and Tangent to his son Damion. He told them that whichever one of them produced higher profits would get control of both.

(For clarification, I decided to diverge away from the topic a little, since you did the same)

Jest
08-02-08, 19:09
You can continue your war with BioTech as you please. But the cost here is too great. You are chopping off the entire hand to get to the finger. The people of Neocron already live their lives in fear and paranoia. Putting such a weapon in the hands of their slavers will only tighten their grip on the city. We all choose to sacrifice certain freedoms for security, even in Tech Haven. It is the nature of the world we live in. But Neocron goes too far. And your company enables them to do so. I can at least partially excuse City Administration, but not Tangent. You don't care for either security nor freedom. Just profit.

Reaction77
08-02-08, 20:01
You Fallen Angels all use guns or weapons of somekind or other, so you can step of your high horse right now. Tangent has done nothing wrong, it has only done what the company is supposed to; be the forerunner in the development of weapons technologies.

You seem to fear death, but what is death in this world? You die "conventionaly" in a filthy alley in pepper park, mugged by enemy runners, and have your DNA replicated at a GeneReplicator, is this new "you" really you, or just a replica, did "you" not just die in that same stinking alleyway?

flib
08-02-08, 20:29
Well, I like to believe that a person's consciousness is their living self, not their body.
When I die and my body is replicated, my mind is then transferred to the new body, so that new body is still me.

Have you ever heard of the cloning experiments by the Union States of Amaricko, found on the Ceres Discs?
It was interesting when the original and the clone are both alive at the same time.

I think of death as when your mind moves on from our physical world.

You are the bringers of death, not us.

(For clarification: just because I am a man of logic and science, that doesn't mean I don't believe that there is something else beyond all of this)

Jest
08-02-08, 20:38
There is nothing wrong with developing weapons technology any more than there is nothing with making a profit. We are all trying to survive. I commend Tangent for helping to keep us safe in the wastes. But for humanity to overcome so much in the last hundreds of years, it pains me to see the direction Neocron is heading. You can cloud the argument and avoid the reality all you want, but the truth is, the people of Neocron are just pawns to you and your company. They are tools to be exploited for your gain. What is their repression to you if it gets you another hundred square feet in your cushy apartment?

And I do not fear death. I only fear that in death, there will be one less person to fight for the freedom that the citizens of Neocron deserve.

flib
08-02-08, 21:15
It appears I strayed from the point I was trying to make.
What I was getting to was that if I am afraid of death, it is not because I am afraid of what lies beyond, but because I am afraid that I haven't yet finished my role here.

Kanedax
08-02-08, 22:58
What exactly are you arguing?
You seem to be going on about how you're righteous or something, not actually arguing any of the given points.

Also, bullshit that you don't care about Biotech's profits. Your main goal is to prove that your profits are better than their's.

In case you didn't know this: Tangent and Biotech are both owned by Robert Jordan.
Robert Jordan gave control of Biotech to his son Seymour and Tangent to his son Damion. He told them that whichever one of them produced higher profits would get control of both.

(For clarification, I decided to diverge away from the topic a little, since you did the same)

First off I am well aware of the ownership of both BioTech and Tangent. Secondly arguing the points you have tried to make is pointless as you are rooted in your beleifs and nothing I say or do will sway them. I merely wish to help you see that the actions we took were rationalized based on the threat we percieved to us. You will never admit you are wrong, I recognize and accept that, but maybe in time you will begin to understand that perhaps we are not so wrong as you think.

flib
08-02-08, 23:06
First off I am well aware of the ownership of both BioTech and Tangent. Secondly arguing the points you have tried to make is pointless as you are rooted in your beleifs and nothing I say or do will sway them. I merely wish to help you see that the actions we took were rationalized based on the threat we percieved to us. You will never admit you are wrong, I recognize and accept that, but maybe in time you will begin to understand that perhaps we are not so wrong as you think.
So yes, you were describing how righteous you are.

flib
10-02-08, 17:30
I love the smell of a won argument in the mornin'.

VoWZaRiCK
10-02-08, 17:39
Tangent runners just have been busy trying to recover the lost data in order to settle this dispute in a more effective way ;)

flib
10-02-08, 18:10
Of course, of course. Because Fallen Angel runners have all the free time in the world.

SilentEye
04-12-08, 11:56
I want everyone that's pointing fingers at Tangent ask them selfs what would happen to Neocron if either Tangent or the City Admin stopped doing what they where doing right now.

What would happen if Tangent stopped developing newer and better weapons? What would happen if the City Admin stopped protecting the citizens of Neocron? What would happen if City Admin left the gates to Neocron open and unprotected?

I can tell you what it's like and what would happen, but surely the thoughts that run across your minds must be negative.

Surely you can't think that it would improve the way of life?!

I truelly wonder, where is all the hatred towards Tangent really coming from?

BlackMaze

Apocalypsox
05-12-08, 08:09
...And we of NEXT sit here, waiting in the quiet for one of the behemoths to fall.
Sadly we have a preference. It would be nice to look upon the situation with equal discrimination.

(OOC: Damn you all for having such an interesting RP conversation and drawing me back in)

flib
05-12-08, 21:54
I'm not saying that getting rid of Tangent and CityAdmin and letting Anarchy reign free is the solution. I'm saying that a change in administration is.
A government not independent from the factions of Neocron, but consisting of them. A government that represents and consists of the people it governs.

As far as Tangent goes, I have already explained that they are a part of the problem. Their weapons don't just go to CityAdmin to help allegedly protect the city; they also go to the people that attack the city.
At the end of the day, Tangent is nothing other than your standard corporation. They make and sell guns. Eventually, they get to the point where they decide that they need to sell more guns, so they do some under the table deals.
After all, what kind of business would they be if they allowed CityAdmin to defeat their foes?

SilentEye
09-12-08, 10:07
Making acusations like that is not something you do!

Yes, unfortunately and to our regret there are certain people on this world with Tangent technology that shoudn't have Tangent technology, we can not deny that, but that does not automaticly mean that they received it directly from us!

Unfortunately Tangent technology is still obtained easily enough if you try hard.

Shouting things like how we strenghten our enemie to make sure that we don't loose our equality between two groups is therefor completely untrue and uncalled for!

I would appriciate that if you decide to acuse Tangent Technology of facts like these that you come with proof first.

Neo.x.phyte
10-12-08, 02:53
I'm not saying that getting rid of Tangent and CityAdmin and letting Anarchy reign free is the solution. I'm saying that a change in administration is.
A government not independent from the factions of Neocron, but consisting of them. A government that represents and consists of the people it governs.

(OCC this sounds like Obama, and in that case im gonna Run as the first half Black Dictator of Neocron)
I'm tired of Reeza's policies ruining the economy, really what we need to do is reduces Taxes for new runners and Increase Taxes on any WOC runners. See Heres the thing Reeza's War on DOY has left Neocron crippled, thats why i feel the need to bring all of our copbots out of that sector within the next few months. If i was put into power as dictator i would make sure CHANGE would happen.
(OCC sorry for bringing politics into this i just couldn't resist and in no way am i making a point or jab at anyone. Honestly i just wanted a laugh. oh and excuse my crappy online grammar )

flib
10-12-08, 07:11
Making acusations like that is not something you do!

Yes, unfortunately and to our regret there are certain people on this world with Tangent technology that shoudn't have Tangent technology, we can not deny that, but that does not automaticly mean that they received it directly from us!

Unfortunately Tangent technology is still obtained easily enough if you try hard.

Shouting things like how we strenghten our enemie to make sure that we don't loose our equality between two groups is therefor completely untrue and uncalled for!

I would appriciate that if you decide to acuse Tangent Technology of facts like these that you come with proof first.
I am not making accusations, I am applying a logical generality to something it exactly pertains to.
I don't need proof when logic is on my side.

Just saying my accusations are false and uncalled for doesn't prove me wrong.

Instead of crying to me for proof, answer me this: are you going to stand there and tell me that Tangent Technologies is not a business, but saint and guardian angel? And if so, then why aren't they trying harder to keep their weapons away from their enemies. I shouldn't be seeing just as many Tangent weapons in the hands of their enemies as their allies.


Unfortunately Tangent technology is still obtained easily enough if you try hard.I point this out because I would like you to notice the paradox you have created.

SilentEye
10-12-08, 09:53
I am not making accusations, I am applying a logical generality to something it exactly pertains to.
I don't need proof when logic is on my side.

Just saying my accusations are false and uncalled for doesn't prove me wrong.

Instead of crying to me for proof, answer me this: are you going to stand there and tell me that Tangent Technologies is not a business, but saint and guardian angel? And if so, then why aren't they trying harder to keep their weapons away from their enemies. I shouldn't be seeing just as many Tangent weapons in the hands of their enemies as their allies.
Tangent Technologies is a business, yes, we are not a guardian angel.

In the end how ever, it's not our business to play police officer and make sure that our weapons stay in the right hands.

We hold science and technology, we develope and yes we try and profit through our weapons. Making sure the enemy is kept at bay and making sure the right weapons are in the right hands is a job for the City Admin.


I point this out because I would like you to notice the paradox you have created.
Oh come on, let's keep it real, there is no reason for me to deny something that is as obvious as radioactivity in the wastelands!

flib
10-12-08, 10:45
Tangent Technologies is a business, yes, we are not a guardian angel.

In the end how ever, it's not our business to play police officer and make sure that our weapons stay in the right hands.

We hold science and technology, we develope and yes we try and profit through our weapons. Making sure the enemy is kept at bay and making sure the right weapons are in the right hands is a job for the City Admin.If we are agreeing that Tangent is a business and that they don't make it their business to play police, then can't we agree that they make it their business to fuel the war, and therefore their business.
Tangent is obviously the best in the weapons industry; one would think that if they weren't purposely allowing their products to get into their enemies' hands that the CityAdmin would be making better progress against the opposition.

Also, I suggest that you don't argue that it's not Tangent's job to make sure that their weapons don't get into the hands of their enemies, because their enemies are that, their enemies. Without an ulterior motive, why wouldn't Tangent be trying their best to keep their weapons from their enemies.


Oh come on, let's keep it real, there is no reason for me to deny something that is as obvious as radioactivity in the wastelands!I'll be more specific then. You have to try hard to do something easy?


To answer your original defense of Tangent, regardless of how their weapons reach their enemies, their weapons do, so how are they a part of the solution. It looks to me like if they stopped making newer and better weapons, the enemy would stop getting newer and better weapons.
The proliferation of arms is not the solution, you would think that this is something we could learn from the past.
How do you think the wastelands became radioactive?

How do you fix the worlds problems? Make bigger, stronger guns and shoot things that don't agree with you.

SilentEye
10-12-08, 11:37
If we are agreeing that Tangent is a business and that they don't make it their business to play police, then can't we agree that they make it their business to fuel the war, and therefore their business.
What?! So if we're not playing police, we'll just have to be the ones fueling war? No!

Like I said, we develope weapons. We work together with the City Admin because we feel that our weapons should be in the best hands, and used for the right purpose, we feel that the City Admin meets these requirements.


Tangent is obviously the best in the weapons industry; one would think that if they weren't purposely allowing their products to get into their enemies' hands that the City Admin would be making better progress against the opposition.
This is just some speculation based on your negative taughts toward Tangent. We have no interest in fueling war and trying to get the best profit out of everything. Fueling the enemy so that the City Admin can't over power them is not our intention.

We want to rid our selfs of all threats to the civilization we are trying to achieve. Fueling our enemies will never help us reach that goal.


Also, I suggest that you don't argue that it's not Tangent's job to make sure that their weapons don't get into the hands of their enemies, because their enemies are that, their enemies. Without an ulterior motive, why wouldn't Tangent be trying their best to keep their weapons from their enemies.
It's not up to you to suggest what I argue with and what I don't. Of course it is not in our interest that any hostile faction runs around the wastes or Neocron equiped with our weapons. Do not get me wrong, Tangent is taking measures to minimize and reduce these 'crimes'.

How ever, there will always be people equiped with Tangent equipment that should not be equiped with Tangent equipment. It's not our business how ever to put all our efforts and resources into stopping that.

We have a partnership with City Admin, where we develope and provide them with weapons, they can take care of things like these.

The fact that it does not always turn out the way we want does not mean that we intently fuel war, or our enemies.


To answer your original defense of Tangent, regardless of how their weapons reach their enemies, their weapons do, so how are they a part of the solution. It looks to me like if they stopped making newer and better weapons, the enemy would stop getting newer and better weapons.
The proliferation of arms is not the solution, you would think that this is something we could learn from the past.
How do you think the wastelands became radioactive?

How do you fix the worlds problems? Make bigger, stronger guns and shoot things that don't agree with you.
We have to adapt to the situation as it is now. If we choose to lay down our weapons and stop development, there will always be certain factions abusing this.

It is not the solution. I will not point fingers at anyone, but laying down our weapons means that we surrender to the Anarchy that will be brought upon us from other certain factions taking advantage of what they would see as an opportunity to attack, overtake and to force their ways and ideas on the people.

SilentEye
30-06-09, 11:17
I think I've won the discussion. :cool:

Hell-demon
30-06-09, 14:22
I don't think anyone gives a fuck.

Chosen One
30-06-09, 21:48
I won!

check the name bitches!

I AM THE STORY LINE!

:angel:

Kanedax
01-07-09, 10:28
I won!

check the name bitches!

I AM THE STORY LINE!

:angel:

That would be true if there was a story line anymore. I think Chenoa may have died or something :O

Hell-demon
01-07-09, 16:56
It might be because the guy they hired to do the story has now been put on BP :rolleyes:

Chosen One
08-07-09, 14:37
It might be because the guy they hired to do the story has now been put on BP :rolleyes:

they should "BP Neocron and rebuild it WITH SLOTS" har har har

Hell-demon
09-07-09, 21:19
Did the neocronicle get hit by the recession???

Biglines
13-07-09, 13:32
Did the neocronicle get hit by the recession???
which one...