View Full Version : [KK] Maybe a solution for the netcode problem
MrWeedster
20-07-07, 08:32
As most of us know, the reason why the netcode is so fucked up are the background verification checks to prevent cheaters.
Yesterday i thought a bit bout it and remembered another online game which encrypts the netpackets using a strong encryption.
That means u could remove the double checks, and maybe (dunno exactly which factors affect this too) the clipping and warping issues would disappear.
KK, what do u think about it? Would it be possible for u to implement this in some time, or would the standard answer be: "not possible without rewriting half of the game".
But there needs to be something serious done, cause this clipping and warping rly kills the game. No F6 patch or other 'content' would help to keep a pvp game alive where u cant do serious pvp cause of the clipping and warping.
greetz
But there needs to be something serious done, cause this clipping and warping rly kills the game. No F6 patch or other 'content' would help to keep a pvp game alive where u cant do serious pvp cause of the clipping and warping.Amen to that.
It's unbearable since 2.2 came out. Mabye they just need to up the position update timing. But that would mean more bandwidth and maybe KK are just bastards who don't want to invest money into NC anymore. Seeing that patches and fixes pretty much stopped and the only one left doing something is the unpaid event staff. Who actually is doing a great job these days. Just a shame that events can't rescue a broken game. :(
MrWeedster
20-07-07, 09:01
Amen to that.
It's unbearable since 2.2 came out. Mabye they just need to up the position update timing. But that would mean more bandwidth and maybe KK are just bastards who don't want to invest money into NC anymore. Seeing that patches and fixes pretty much stopped and the only one left doing something is the unpaid event staff. Who actually is doing a great job these days. Just a shame that events can't rescue a broken game. :(
I think more bandwith wouldnt improve much, cause the packets anyway need to go to the server for a round-trip. Bandwith doesnt mean faster packets, but more. That maybe would improve warping and maybe the 'falling-thru-hills' issue, but not the extreme laggy netcode.
greetz
Encryption can be broken, I don't see that solving the problems of clipping or checking for exploits.
All encryption does is hide the information that is sent.
The problem with the netcode position updates is the client does not compensate for the slow rate of positions updates. It simply does not check that a player is allowed to move through the object.
MrWeedster
20-07-07, 11:38
Well, i said strong encryption.
With changing keys every x Minutes/Seconds it would be nearly impossible to hack. And i dont think some1 puts that mass energy in breaking the encryption just to be the king of the game.
And as stated by some GMs and some others, the main reason for the crappy netcode are the checks from the server. Its logical: A client which waits on the ACK from the server (maybe more then one ACK) is much more laggy then just position updates from client to server.
greetz
and maybe KK are just bastards who don't want to invest money into NC anymore.
I'm sorry to go offtopic Weedster, but I may need further explanations from SorkzMok (or eventually any other forum member that recently evoked this idea on the present board) about this dead angle.
Afaik Reakktor is a now a division of 10tacle, which doesn't mean that KK's staff have undergone some turnover or sold their souls to the Devil ; and I'm not aware of any project other than Neocron that would monopolize all their internal ressources for the moment. 10tacle has around 400 employees (including KK), mostly developpers, so I ask the question : are KK devs actually concerned by any 10tacle upcoming game ? Not afaik.
On the other hand, Neocron could be some kind of gallery taken for granted to show a demonstration of their "skills", or a reliable source of money (or maybe both), cause it seems that they - may - recently have extended their services pallets (customer care, payment solutions, animation ?). Whenever it is true, I don't think it would be in their interest to give up the updates and lose their already small playerbase.
Until I'm contradicted by a forum member or some KK's official, I think disatisfied people should better blame 10tacle's "decisionnaires" and shareholders rather than Reakktor developpers.
Afaik Reakktor is a now a division of 10tacle, which doesn't mean that KK's staff have undergone some turnover or sold their souls to the Devil ; and I'm not aware of any project other than Neocron that would monopolize all their internal ressources for the moment. 10tacle has around 400 employees (including KK), mostly developpers, so I ask the question : are KK devs actually concerned by any 10tacle upcoming game ? Not afaik.
KK are all working on Black Prophecy.
There used to be a higher rate of patches in NC1, but in NC2 that has slowed down a fair bit. Whether this is due to a longer design, code and test cycle or they have less resources available for NC, only KK can tell us.
Thats what I was trying to suggest the other day, that if they are unwilling or don't have the resource to make major changes to the game, then perhaps they could find the common bottleneck thats causing the problem and boost it up a little. Depends on the cost of doing so though, I don't think 10craple are going to throw money at the game any more than they can.
When you look at games like AutoAssault getting shut down recently, with, I presume, a much larger population than Neocron has had, I suppose we are lucky that the game is still going. Its just a shame that over time the game has got worse in key areas (the combat, the movement) while improving in others (zones, support, server stability).
Black Prophecy.
Everything is coming back to my mind now (the interview). I feel so stupid and naive...
Which role does Reakktor plays in the new title “Black Prophecy”
"As developer of this project, Black Prophecy is Reakktor’s next big task. Therefore the granted significance for this project is accordingly high. "
edit - Interestingly, while 2006's financial report for 10Tacle mentions this project, there is not mention of it or Reakktor at all in the recently release June 2007 equity study.
Err I've been away from ages, please forgive me but what is Black Prophecy?
New patch, new story line, whole new game?
http://saule.free.fr/neocron/nc_10tacle.jpg
Source : http://www.equitystory.com/download/Companies/tacle/VeranstaltungenDownloads2/SES_10TACLE_STUDIOS_AG_23062006_eng_final.pdf
Interestingly, while 2006's financial report for 10Tacle mentions this project, there is not mention of it
Noticed that too
Err I've been away from ages, please forgive me but what is Black Prophecy?
New patch, new story line, whole new game?
This is all I can do for you by now :
Questions regarding the product “Black Prophecy”
* Which role does Reakktor plays in the new title “Black Prophecy”
As developer of this project, Black Prophecy is Reakktor’s next big task. Therefore the granted significance for this project is accordingly high.
* Would it be accurate to say this will be a 'spiritual successor' (e.g. system shock/bio shock or xcom/ufo:aftermath) to Neocron?
Without calling Black Prophecy implicitly Neocron 3, we are remaining true to ourselves. Which means that we will not break new grounds stylistic and atmospheric wise. However, Black Prophecy will be another game genre. Which genre you might ask, but at the current time I am not allowed to answer this question.
* Will Black Prophecy exclusively offered for the Asian market or are there any plans for a North American or European release?
Though this decision has not been finally made, it is aimed towards the European/north American market. According to current analysis the product would not fit the requirements of the Asian market.
* When can we expect information about this new game?
Traditionally it is always awkward to speak openly about such dates. Fact is that we are in a very early stage of the project and several things have to be clarified before we can bring any details to light. I think that we can lift the curtain in approximately half a year.
cheers.
although it sounds ominous
Until I'm contradicted by a forum member or some KK's official, I think disatisfied people should better blame 10tacle's "decisionnaires" and shareholders rather than Reakktor developpers.
Right !
each time i read this kind of threads, I feel so sorry that an awesome game like neocron doesn't get more money from 10tacles ...
Guys seriously, something I dont understand:
How do you expect to solve the clipping problem with runners running @ 200 mph? And PCs having FPS @ 10, 20 30? Do the maths and you will see why you clip. We are all basically small Ferraris running all around all :p
Now why we didn't clip in NC1? well who in NC1 used to invest so much in speed?
Edit: Also another thing: something being in equity reports, doesnt guarantee that the project will proceed and finish. It might have started and moved to a point and then abandoned.
Good find Zeninja.
Even I can't get any information on such. Very tight lipped project :p
Do the maths and you will see why you clip. We are all basically small Ferraris running all around all :p
Always have been my opinion too, runspeed should be drastically reduced : not only for clipping issue, but for gameplay. I won't even talk about realism cause I'd get stabbed in the back right away (you know "this is just a game it's supposed to be fun bla bla bla")
In theory a general nerf has been done with 2.2 through setups balancing, but it seems the actual runspeed (for a runner with the very same ath/agi in 2.1 or 2.2) has been kept unchanged (maybe it's "hard coded" or something, I don't know I'm not very familiar with this kind of stuff).
Now considering the number of whiners begging for ath/agi malus removal on their respective PAs and implants, it seems that everyone now and then still absolutely want to keep playing Unreal Tournament 2012 with the Quake II engine.
Very tight lipped project :p
Let's have a visit at 10tacle HQ with a pair of pliers and a blow torch, see what happens :rolleyes:
Serious_Sam
20-07-07, 20:55
Let's have a visit at 10tacle HQ with a pair of pliers and a blow torch, see what happens
Erm, security? I understand though.
Security :confused: KK rnt that intelligent ;)
Security ?
Don't be stupid guys : I'll find my way in through teh Hacknet ;)
Anyway rumours state that 10tacle have no security guards anymore... all their budget went into the project :rolleyes:
I haven't bothered to translate the latest report, but I think 10tacle have signed a deal with MTV in Germany to make a social mmo service, so I guess they are doing well financially (in fact if you read those reports you see that they wisely split their income among engine assets and services while not relying too heavily on game sales), its odd though that this new project for Reakktor hasn't actually been announced, its not in the report at all, and it should have been given a public unveiling by now.
Archtemplar
20-07-07, 22:01
poor NC, no budget :o
Here we go again.
NA is not the same as none.
In this case it is most likley because Neocron was developed and released BEFORE 10T aquired Reakttor, hence 10T had no budget for it. And I would imagine that 10T take the not unreasonable approach that an MMO should be able to fund it's ongoing development from it's own income. So its a stupid thing to kick up a fuss about. That combined with the fact that Neocron has an appaling reputation associated with its name, so noone is going to pour money at it.
Good find Zeninja.
What is? I don't see anything Zeninja has posted that hasn't been seen before.
Traditionally it is always awkward to speak openly about such dates. Fact is that we are in a very early stage of the project and several things have to be clarified before we can bring any details to light. I think that we can lift the curtain in approximately half a year.How long ago was this?
Mighty Max
21-07-07, 12:32
As most of us know, the reason why the netcode is so fucked up are the background verification checks to prevent cheaters.
Yesterday i thought a bit bout it and remembered another online game which encrypts the netpackets using a strong encryption.
That means u could remove the double checks, and maybe (dunno exactly which factors affect this too) the clipping and warping issues would disappear.
KK, what do u think about it? Would it be possible for u to implement this in some time, or would the standard answer be: "not possible without rewriting half of the game".
But there needs to be something serious done, cause this clipping and warping rly kills the game. No F6 patch or other 'content' would help to keep a pvp game alive where u cant do serious pvp cause of the clipping and warping.
greetz
I would love an encryption.
Unfortunally it wouldn't much reduce the problem:
"Bob = Mallory":
Whenever the client needs to encrypt anything, it needs a key to encrypt it. The thing is, if the client knows the key, you have to expect that any attacker in control of the client knows the key also.
That means that the data sent from client to server has to be checked as it would have been send in plaintext.
Same for decrypting information that comes from the server. The client needs to have a way to decrypt it, thus the data send there has to be viewed on as known to the attacker.
Out-Of-Order Attacks:
While these Attacks are very easy to detect by serverchecks, it is not doable by a simple one-pass encryption even with the strongest algorithm. They would be still vulnerable to heuristic attacks (even if the "Bob=Mallory" Problem wouldnt exist)
The too-Late factor:
The plain text of the datastream is known. When having known plaintext and known cyphertext of the amount of a connection protocol in an MMO, even the private key (not known to client) has to be looked on as known, as it can be calculated. (Collisions in form of same cypertext - different plaintext, and same plaintext different cyphertext are THE tool to reconstruct keys)
Thanks Mighty Max for getting this thread back on its feet.
poor NC, no budget :o
Actually, this budget couldn't be revealed cause it's part of a wider project aiming at forming ruthless secret agents. Now I'm sorry, couldn't go further or I'd have to kill ya.
I don't see anything Zeninja has posted that hasn't been seen before.
Empathy maybe ?
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