View Full Version : Monks in general in 2.2 (Please KK read this)
Hi people,
Just my personal feelings about monks now in 2.2.
APUS:
I feel like i still have a lot of fun to play my apu (when i get a ppu with me) BUT I think a few things are missing to make them really more attractive. First of all, i really do think they need to get back some higher frequency on the spells. I think that was the most interesting thing with them was the high frequency and that feeling of pounding the enemy down, which is a bit gone now with the ultra slow casting. Second thing, they absolutely need to give the apus back the HAB, and make it like before to use more mana than what it is right now.
PPUS:
To continue in the same way, talking about HAB.....I think the HAB on the ppus is a joke right now and makes absolutely no sens. In the past, 1 team with 1 good ppu was able to win against a team with 2 bad or normal ppus. Nowadays this is almost impossible as the HAB takes such a ridiculous smallish amount of mana to cast and is so fast than this is just a HAB spamming festival when the team got a few ppus....
I REALLY think....and you guys can give me your feedback on this, that these points needs to get sorted out fast to put things more interesting for all classes.
Cya,
VegaH / XStrikerX
I agree on the APU frequency, i also think the frequency on their spells just isn't high enough.
But i'm against giving APUS the antibuff. Simply because that would then bring the old APU PPU teams back. As the APU was the only class again that can remove apd.
Rather increase the casttime for it and especially the amount of psi each cast needs.
Then give it back the old animation. You need to see there's an antibuff going on.
What i'm not sure about, do the anti spells remove the casters spells on a selfcast?
Because if not i would change it to that. So PPUs couldn't just spam antispells constantly not worrying about anything.
What i'm not sure about, do the anti spells remove the casters spells on a selfcast?
it removes ADP on selfcast....
Why the old HABs are still fucking blessed? you $§"$ed up everything related to item-value in my eyes. even old good stuff is for the junk now.
HAB change => give the holy HAB the freq+mana usage of the blessed and give the antiprotector the value of the blessed of casttime+mana-usage.
Or, on the PPU front, make them run slower (agil/ath nerfs from high level PPU implants perhaps). That way a PPU can't be invincible each time by clip whoring and running around trees, and would truly need to rely on their damage dealers to help keep them alive in return. It happens each and every time a PPU almost dies and has nowhere to zone whore into. Because the damage dealers would assumedly be able to run faster than them around trees, and the clip whoring from deliberately running back and to over hills would be reduced, they would either want to be slower, or sacrifice a bit of their implants/resists/skills to gain some of that runspeed back.
I haven't been in an OP fight once since 2.2 went retail, and can't say I enjoy the thought of most things mentioned. Most PE's are using the Ion Pistol and Crossbow/Freeman combination, and the Crossbow has to be even more overpowered now than it was in 2.1. The damage is insane from the Crossbow alone, without the usual routine of chopping off a large laggy chunk of your health straight away with the Ion Pistol.
I thought straight away that the frequency on most weapons made things boring. Rifles are pretty much perfect, apart from possibly the Healing Light which fires rather slowly. Pistols on the other hand, the only pistol I've been able to use so far that has an excellent firing rate is the Beretta. When everything is slowed down, as with APU spells and the majority of Pistols (no idea about Heavy/Melee weapons), it just makes everything feel boring.
Sex @ Vegah: Same thing as mentioned in the other thread really. Leave HAB on PPU's but make it costly to use so it can't just be spammed. Drugflash? SI? Use nearly all psi pool? Slow cast rate? If it's possible, another thing I've been thinking of is that perhaps upon successfully casting HAB on a remote target, you also self-cast a 10 second skill malus. Perhaps -50 PPU, Psi Use, and Psi Power? The same thing that should have been done to effects like Parashock which destroyed PvP for so long. Parashock is gone, but HAB has taken its place. Even removing your own shields with EVERY HAB cast would make a difference to the amount of PPU's willing to spam it.
Definitely agree with SorkZmok. If HAB casts currently go rather unnoticed, you should certainly bring back the old antibuff animation (or create a new funky one) so you can quickly realise an antibuff is being cast.
What about HAB being an APU and PPU spells ? So APUs can be used in big teams to HAB instead of having 6 PPU for a team of 10 like we sometimes see. And the APU/PPU combo remain as powerfull as before.
What about HAB being an APU and PPU spells ? So APUs can be used in big teams to HAB instead of having 6 PPU for a team of 10 like we sometimes see. And the APU/PPU combo remain as powerfull as before.
hmmm good point, how about giving the apus the antiprotector (to remove blue shield) and give the ppus a red-remover and a white-remover?
ps: plus the tweeks to get it less freq+more mana use on the monks. ie see the ex-HAB from nc1/2 now for a good freq example.
I think part of the reason they made HAB a PPU spell was so it wasn't just the usual tiresome APU zerg requirement for OP fights, and brought all the other classes more into the picture. That reason alone makes it worth keeping as a PPU spell and I don't personally like the idea of splitting it between APU and PPU, as you return to what it was back in 2.1. Split the spell up, sure, that's another way to make antibuffing more tedious by a tiny fraction, but definitely keep them both as PPU spells. I'd prefer just adding some deservedly nasty side affects on casting HAB, whether it lands on the target or not. The PPU should be in the same position as their enemy for casting it.
Imagine what it would have been like in 2.1 if the same thing happened with Parashock. PPU casts Holy Parashock on his enemy, glues him to the spot and causes a piss easy death, and in return the PPU gets glued to the spot as well. I just think there should be something equally similair and potentially costly when casting HAB so that it's potentially used as a last resort.
Increase firing frequency, but lower damage output accordingly is a no brainer really when it comes to APU (and Pistol *cough*) firing frequency. Just make it feel like you're in a fight and not watching a slow motion video. :(
Giving unprotector to APUs and PPUs would be even worse. You would just get a team of them who can use it twice as often..
Increasing the cast time and psi pool usage of it would do just fine along with giving it back the old animation.
Increasing APUs spell frequency is a good idea too, even if APUs were perfectly viable (even overpowered) with slow frequency/high damage I'd still prefer them to have the same damage as they do now with a higher cast rate. Having said that, APUs are not underpowered in OP fights.
How about we completely rethink the role of ppu, because as it is right now we can easily call it ppucron? PPUs were never supposed to be so overpowered. Where is the balance against other classes? It seems, the ppu mistake is still here with us to haunt us, only instead of giving power to apus, now they give power to everything but APUs :p. Nobody plays apus because they are very vulnerable...
What about changing selfcast and foreigncast effects for PPUs?
They become a lot more vulnerable while the person they buff becomes very strong.
So basically the damagedealers actually had to protect their PPUs instead of just going after enemies without worrying about the PPU at all.
Is there any other game where the healer class is at the same time the hardest to kill? I doubt it.
The main problem with 2.2 is that it was supposed to be -and actually is- a balance project. They managed after all this time to balance almost all classes. So what is the role of the ppu, which obviously disturbs all this balance I wonder?
In my opinion ppus should stick in prime buffs, to fill resist gaps somewhat, weak foreign cast shields, nerf holy heal, but on the opposite make them usefull by requiring them to capture an OP.
What about changing selfcast and foreigncast effects for PPUs?
They become a lot more vulnerable while the person they buff becomes very strong.
So basically the damagedealers actually had to protect their PPUs instead of just going after enemies without worrying about the PPU at all.
Is there any other game where the healer class is at the same time the hardest to kill? I doubt it.
Doesn't work in PvP games. Seriously, its great in PvE games, where you control mob aggro and such. But in PvP games, a weak healer class just gets killed within 15 seconds of combat beginning and hence nobody ever plays them. I believe that WoW had that problem - when they first intrdouced battlegrounds I reacall some discussion leeching into places that I read about how to deal with it and that blizzard effectivley ended up making hte healer very weak to mobs and very tough vs players, which just comes off dumb.
ashley watts
11-05-07, 17:35
if freq is going to increase damage needs to be decreased. The only problem i see in monks (APU'S) is they take a LOT of damage off any weapon but thats the point , apus should go down quick but of course punching holes through the other guy whoes receiving your damage, Pure APU being a pure damage dealer i think the only need to change is Damage it should be slighty increased
EDIT: I also think that there should be more of a penalty for missing a shot on a APU as you still dont need to aim on a monk :p, or make the damage whilst on an open reticle MUCH less than with a full reticle
Jason Parker
11-05-07, 17:50
If they would lower the use restrictions on Antibuff Nanite Tools and then make cast Time and Mana Use higher on HAB, I wouldn't see anything left speaking against moving HAB back to APU, since you would have the choice between APU, PE and maybe Spy as debuffer.
Maybe making HAB work like the nanites also removes the necessity of higher Cast time and changing the animation, since shield would simply run out instead of disapearing instantly.
Thinking further I'd say for the nanites to be a real alternative, the nanites and HAB HAVE to be working the same way.
If they would lower the use restrictions on Antibuff Nanite Tools and then make cast Time and Mana Use higher on HAB, I wouldn't see anything left speaking against moving HAB back to APU, since you would have the choice between APU, PE and maybe Spy as debuffer.
Maybe making HAB work like the nanites also removes the necessity of higher Cast time and changing the animation, since shield would simply run out instead of disapearing instantly.
Thinking further I'd say for the nanites to be a real alternative, the nanites and HAB HAVE to be working the same way.
Heh, at the moment people seem to be forgetting that APUs can antibuff - its trivial to find enough free points for the antibuff nanites. The problems is of course that holy unprotector is simply far too good. It removes 3 shields faster than a PPU can cast the 3 non-rare shields on themselves.
another thing is the foreign cast shield strength of 30% Oo
25% were just fine in my opinion. the 30% with holy heal and Holy Heat makes Tanks nearly invincible.
APUs don't need their damage decreased if their frequency is increased. If you do that you lose the whole 'glass cannon' concept that makes the APU what it is. If you did -dmg/+freq then it would just be a PSI version of a gun. The only thing that would compensate for increasing freq/dmg is lowering defence. Even now that isn't needed, because APUs are not a very decent solo class, but they pull through in OP fights.
And Jini - PvP is not balanced at all now. Balance was better in 2.1 because the only thing that could compete with all the overpowered setups was skill. Now skill matters a lot less now, especially in OP fights.
In my (and others) opinion, balance can't really ever be achieved in NC.
Lifewaster
11-05-07, 18:47
The main problem with 2.2 is that it was supposed to be -and actually is- a balance project. They managed after all this time to balance almost all classes. So what is the role of the ppu, which obviously disturbs all this balance I wonder?
In my opinion ppus should stick in prime buffs, to fill resist gaps somewhat, weak foreign cast shields, nerf holy heal, but on the opposite make them usefull by requiring them to capture an OP.
The ideal role I believe is passive support ....... this means making 1 PPU enough per team (9 players) in an op fight
Strangely, this was almost the case in early 2.2 , perhaps because no one had Unprotectors.........
A few wierd ideas:
Make everything last 3 min.......shields/buffs/heals ......and reduce the power of heal accordingly(1 third of current)..... make Unprotector only work on enemy PPUS (ie: sets shields to 30% instead of removal).......and there we go.......you dont need multiple PPUs to win an op fight anymore.....they can stay at the back lines, give buffs/heals every 3 min and perform the odd res. Meantime everyone else fights at pretty much the same lvl of advantage/disadvantage since unprotector doesnt effect non-ppus anymore.....
And Jini - PvP is not balanced at all now. Balance was better in 2.1 because the only thing that could compete with all the overpowered setups was skill. Now skill matters a lot less now, especially in OP fights
I'm sorry, what? How does slowing closing reticles mean that less skill is needed? Surley better aiming is needed. How does giving monks a reticles reduced the need for skill? How does reduced PPU influence mean less skill (PPU influence is down from 2.1, although its still too large). Really, what are you trying to say.
OK, I've finished my final report for uni now. It needs tweaking but I have all weekend for that, so I can afford to expand a bit here.
The PPU is currently a purley support class. Ignoring the sillyness that is soulclusters, they have no way of doing damage on their own. So all they can do is make others more effective. They are an ability mulltiplier for other players.
Now, let's hypothesise a crazy world, in which combat rank is a carefully calculated value that represents a combination of offence and defence abilites. We could view the PPU as a way of mulltiplying that value. How strong do we want the PPU influence to be? Enough so that PPU + 1 other is the same as 2 fighters? so PPU modifier is X2. A Cr 60 player becomes CR120 and comes level with the 2 CR60 fighters. But then a PPU + 2 others is 240 worth of fight, wheras a team of 3 is only 180.
X1.35 actually sounds reasonable. A PPU is balanced in a team of 4 and advanategous in a team of 5. Any more and the advantage gets bigger, but its realistically not likley anybody could succesfully PPU for all these people. Right now, that multiplier is too big. In addition, the fact that PPUs currently have the means to counter PPUs (unprotector to counter a PPU's shields) means that the best way to deal with PPUs is in fact to bring more PPUs. So, we can quickly see that if we want to cut back on monk spam, antibuffs don't belong in PPU hands.
So here is a more radical idea. Lets not buff APU damage or frequency. Lets leave their attack worse than tanks. In fact if anything, lets make it even worse. Instead, APUs become debuffers. A PPU makes your team stronger. An APU makes the enemy team weaker. APUs have antibuffs. APUs have damage boost. APUs have something else that hampers enemy players. To avoid them being useless in PvE, but also being overpowered in PvP lets give them some toys that only work on dumb mobs. "APUs won't be viable solo!" you cry. Yeah well, they aren't at the moment. Nobody is ever going to use a glass cannon for raiding. A glass cannon is no fun for PvE either. PPUs aren't viable solo either. So we have made monks effectively a team class, well perhaps thats the way its got to be. But look at the fights we have created:
PPUs buff their team, poke people, etc. (possibly hack)
APU hamper the enemy team. (possibly hack)
Tanks deal out and take the big damage.
PEs can mix it up with the tanks (at a slight disadvantage, admittedly) or roam free, they take PPu support when its availble, take the primes then go droner huning with their own shields and heals. (very possily hack - its borderline as to how viable this is on a PE)
Spies act as hit and run harrasses, hackers, etc. (I wish nanites weren't how they are, but oh well).
So a team with monks only would be incapable of doing damage. A team of tanks wouldn't be able to hack. And teams of PEs or Spies - well, they can work. But they'll need more than 4 of them to stop a PPU/2 Tank/APU team.
Opinions?
I'm sorry, what?
If you OP fighted you'd have a clue. It's not about reticules closing, in 2.1 a skilled PPU and a skilled tank/APU could take out a number of people. It's hard to put my finger on what's made it harder though..
In 2.2 this just isn't possible. Me and pabz tried this with PPU and APU against more than two people and it just didn't work. It would be easier with a tank, but not as good as it was in 2.1..
If you OP fighted you'd have a clue. It's not about reticules closing, in 2.1 a skilled PPU and a skilled tank/APU could take out a number of people. It's hard to put my finger on what's made it harder though..
In 2.2 this just isn't possible. Me and pabz tried this with PPU and APU against more than two people and it just didn't work. It would be easier with a tank, but not as good as it was in 2.1..
A: APUs aren't as good as tanks at the moment for pretty mcuh anything, especially when there are going to be many people focussing on you.
B: This in no way demonstrates that skill is less required. What it means is that one PPU is no longer so stupidly powerful as to be able to keep you alive through daft amounts of damage. Its also a sign of just how silly unrpotector is. I have been in opfights. I've been there with 2 PPUs + fighters vs Me and another (been on the PPU and the DD side). And I've seen how unprotector spam is the game of the day. Still doesn't mean that the game is any less skillful. It does mean that the way to win at the moment is to bring more PPUs that the other side though...
If it's B, like you said then why is it that the outnumbered APU could kill the opposing fighters even though his PPU is keeping him alive through stupid amounts of damage? Keeping in mind the single APU won't be out damaging the people he's fighting..
Lifewaster
11-05-07, 21:26
So here is a more radical idea. Lets not buff APU damage or frequency. Lets leave their attack worse than tanks. In fact if anything, lets make it even worse. Instead, APUs become debuffers.
By making anti-buff a hybrid spell (having both APU and PPU reqs) you could perhaps achieve this in a better way , giving apus the choice between pure offense as APU, or having weak offense+weak self heal/shields+debuffing as Hybrid
I think its a better solution then just giving HAB to apus.
If it's B, like you said then why is it that the outnumbered APU could kill the opposing fighters even though his PPU is keeping him alive through stupid amounts of damage? Keeping in mind the single APU won't be out damaging the people he's fighting..
Simple. You have one pair of people, generally very good at the game, well set up (because otherwise this doesn't work) and experienced at working together. They zone up and focus on one target, then the next, then the next, singling each one out. They run inbetween, meaning that the enemy has to watch their shots, while any stray shots from the pair are stilll going to count. While the massed groups PPUs frantically try to pick out the person in need of attention, the pair has one PPU focussed tightly on his man. As you said yourself, it only worked when the pair were a lot better than the enemy. But it was only possible because when a well setup monk had a PPU on his back, he could quite conceivably outheal several people. Not because skill was more important, but because PPU influence was greater.
Life - why? Really, why? It may as well get slowed down to a sensible pace and given to APUs. I think its a role that fits much better than the idea of maximum damage class - people like tanks with that. I dare say some will disagree though.
I 100% agree with dogface tbh!
Its a shame most people who's opinion I would like to hear are banned on this forum
CMaster I don't know where you get the idea that a 2.1 PPU'd APU could outheal several tanks..
Even if balance could be achieved, I don't think I'd want it now that I've seen an attempt at it. I probably whined in 2.1 about this overpowered class and that overpowered class but there wasn't a lot that needed to be changed to make pvp decent.
You introduced a system of 3 shield types in 2.2, which is great since it adds complexity to the game...yet you remove all chance of them being used effectively by the inclusion of holy unprotector. The fact that it can be spammed nonstop just turns any kind of large scale fight into a joke. Why not just remove it completely and leave people having to use the 3 anti modules instead? Really it should come down to a tactical choice between protecting your own team and taking the time to debuff the opposing team, not a 'freebie' that nullifies any attempts at protection.
Seraphin[69]
12-05-07, 14:00
I really miss the old time when the Holy lighting frequency was 105/min
Those 39/min are a sad joke. It's not even 1 per second...
At least with such a low cast rate you don't need to spend PPW and you only need to spend FCS !
make hab aoe! so he unbuff her teammates aswell :D
Aww c'mon, you asked for a monk nerf. You got what you want. Now more whine? jeez...
Guys actually why i said at first that HAB should go back to APUs instead of PPUS is because APUS are nowadays more vulnerable to death.....It means even if they come in the OP fight with many APUs,.....a good team of good tanks could probably kill them still not too hardly and if they are dead.....it means noone gets HAB spammed.....which is not true right now with HAB in PPUs hands because they are hard to kill and probably wont be the first target choice in an OP fight....so they just can run around spamming like fuck without dying....thats what i find stupid.
I still agree with the idea of making HAB using more mana and/or being slower to cast.
Cya
I forgot to mention too :
They need to fix poison spells of apus so they get stackable again...
Thanx
I still agree with the idea of making HAB using more mana and/or being slower to cast.
Cya
I think you'd struggle to find anybody disagreeing with that one.
Seraphin[69]
13-05-07, 12:42
You're talking about a nerf...
If I'm correct, the Xbow frequency was the same than Holy lightning back in 2.1.
Yet Xbow is now 60/min and not 39/min
Xbow is probably as deadly as an apu spell ATM so I wonder why such a different nerf ^^
Aww c'mon, you asked for a monk nerf. You got what you want. Now more whine? jeez...
We asked for some kind of balance (or as close as can be), so suck it.
']You're talking about a nerf...
If I'm correct, the Xbow frequency was the same than Holy lightning back in 2.1.
Yet Xbow is now 60/min and not 39/min
Xbow is probably as deadly as an apu spell ATM so I wonder why such a different nerf ^^
Crossbow of 2.1 was capped @ 92 in contrast to a capped HL which was only doing 105 rpm :p
As for the damage of a HL in 2.1 better not to say anything :p
Now in 2.2, its balanced, because one weapon does say 200 dmg but shoots @ 40 per min, while the other only does like 120 but shoots @ 60 rpm or something
ashley watts
13-05-07, 23:11
Take HAB off PPU's , If a ppu is HAB'ing another PPU the Recieving PPU cannot simply rebuff in time from which the HAB cast time is, so the Recieiving PPU cannot Rebuff aswell as taking Lots of damage from a damage dealer, it's totally stupid and not well thought of :mad:
Crossbow of 2.1 was capped @ 92 in contrast to a capped HL which was only doing 105 rpm :p
As for the damage of a HL in 2.1 better not to say anything :p
Now in 2.2, its balanced, because one weapon does say 200 dmg but shoots @ 40 per min, while the other only does like 120 but shoots @ 60 rpm or something
It really isn't balenced because an apu doesn't have the same heal/resists.
It really isn't balenced because an apu doesn't have the same heal/resists.
of course it didn't.
the apu/ppu combo had a lot more. only way you could kill the monk was by catching him off guard, or his ppu buddy was not that good. Usually what was happening was that, as a PE you were getting a para, followed immediatelly by a DB, and that was a game over. All the antibuff ppus were previously holyParawhores. If you come think of it, not much have changed from the ppu side. In fact ppus are even more powerful
Seraphin[69]
14-05-07, 07:54
Crossbow of 2.1 was capped @ 92 in contrast to a capped HL which was only doing 105 rpm :p
As for the damage of a HL in 2.1 better not to say anything :p
Now in 2.2, its balanced, because one weapon does say 200 dmg but shoots @ 40 per min, while the other only does like 120 but shoots @ 60 rpm or something
And what about the damage's power ?
Wasn't it suppose to be APU > Canon > Rifle > Pistol ?
Why the hell should a pistol do the same damage than an APU spell ?
A Creed do 2x what an APU spell can deal over time !
Solo APUs were fairly balanced in 2.1 jini, except 90% of APUs were pretty crap despite being the easiest to aim with. An xbow or any gun in-game shouldn't do the same or similar damage compared to a spell like fire apoc, holy lightning, frostration etc. APUs do need a frequency increase too, KK need to pay less attention to numbers and comparitive damage/time and go with what actually feels right in-game.
I'll agree that PPUs are much more powerful, even without buffs. They take a lot less damage without their shields now, so you don't have to rebuff yourself insanely quick anymore after an antibuff.
William Antrim
14-05-07, 14:18
Havent been to an opfight in ages tbh but generally ppus are having a massive influence on pvp still. I dont want them nerfed to oblivion but this holy unprotector biz is definitely in need of discussion.
Personally (based strictly on the maths) i do like Cmasters ideas. I think the ppu needs to have a value within the confines of the game but its value should be equal to that of the other classes.
I think they should just remove the holy unprotector all together and split the debuffing between various shields. I also think it should be non-rare only and it should be available to all monks (give it a focussing req only or something along those lines). The buff itself should have a reasonable casting time and not take alot of mana imo.
I think within the realms of balancing the game the problem lies in the fact that a lot of new rares have been added to the pool and thus they dont seem to have been tested all that successfully as of yet.
I know this idea is drastic but its the only way I can think of to resolve the problem.
William Antrim
14-05-07, 14:19
KK need to pay less attention to numbers and comparitive damage/time and go with what actually feels right in-game.
Im bloody glad youre not a dev.
Im bloody glad youre not a dev.
likewise
Im bloody glad youre not a dev.
Ohh yeah, because so far they haven't failed us, right?
heres my input, apu definitly needs higher freq, apus are easy to kill so should be doing good damage, only noobs complained about apus in 2.1 and definitly apu should get hab as its easy to kill a apu but at the moment especially with damage reduction ppus r almost impossible to kill (without your own hab spamming ppu) so i think its only fair apus get hab.
also KK plz fix ppu shields, u seem to have forgotten that reducing pvp damage means ppus are much harder to kill now as you seem to have forgotten to nerf their shields or you didnt nerf them enough, please sort this out so i can stop seeing 3 dev tanks failing to kill a stationary ppu
William Antrim
15-05-07, 11:13
Ohh yeah, because so far they haven't failed us, right?
No, simply because the first rule of play testing is being methodical. Not just "having a go and seeing what feels right". O_o
heres my input, apu definitly needs higher freq, apus are easy to kill so should be doing good damage, only noobs complained about apus in 2.1 and definitly apu should get hab as its easy to kill a apu but at the moment especially with damage reduction ppus r almost impossible to kill (without your own hab spamming ppu) so i think its only fair apus get hab.
also KK plz fix ppu shields, u seem to have forgotten that reducing pvp damage means ppus are much harder to kill now as you seem to have forgotten to nerf their shields or you didnt nerf them enough, please sort this out so i can stop seeing 3 dev tanks failing to kill a stationary ppuApus were too strong in 2.1. Without a doubt.
Now they just lack the frequency. And thus can't even come close to tanks thanks to their now insane damage output and resists with a ppu.
And as several people said already, giving the antispells back to Apus would also bring back the old apu ppu teams as those are the only ones that can remove shields. And we really don't want that, right?
While with Ppus antibuffing, every class teamed with a ppu has a good chance. Too good even thanks to the overpowered unprotector and the pvp damage nerf. :(
No, simply because the first rule of play testing is being methodical. Not just "having a go and seeing what feels right". O_o
So KK have been methodical and clearly thought everything through, which is why every weapon is perfectly balanced and skill is the only thing that wins a fight in 2.2?
You think 2.1 was methodical and calculated? I sure as fuck don't, and it was a hell of a lot better game than 2.2 is.
William Antrim
15-05-07, 15:26
So KK have been methodical and clearly thought everything through, which is why every weapon is perfectly balanced and skill is the only thing that wins a fight in 2.2?
You think 2.1 was methodical and calculated? I sure as fuck don't, and it was a hell of a lot better game than 2.2 is.
No m8.
You <-----------------------------------------> the point.
I said I was glad YOU arent developing due to the way you tossed out the statement about how you should "go with what feels right in game". This is the WORST way to go about testing something as any scientist/mathematician/person with any kind of logical reasoning would tell you.
What THEY have done is different but that was never the issue in this particular post. As it is, yes there are bodge ups, yes there are mistakes but yes they appear to be getting investigated for the most part. Sure things arent balanced right now but there are enough people here who do have an idea about balance providing positive feedback to the problems to actually aid somewhat in the balancing strategy. Thats what forums are for, discussion. The problem i saw with your idea was that doing it your way would lead to the game being even worse than it currently may or may not be. If we just went with what "felt right" then we would make a monumental fuck up more than likely. It would be like giving a 4yr old a paintbrush and saying go paint. Noone knows how it would end up.
Whether they need more coders, more programmers, more dev team, more whatever the only way we can contribute is to give balanced feedback on what is or is not right ingame at the moment as we the players are the ones who bear the brunt of the changes and we have the most experience into what is or is not balanced.
The problem they have is weeding through the bs that gets spouted by people who come on here to whine about a weapon that killed them. This used to happen every week in nc1, another person got served and they made a thread and it distracted KK from the REAL issues - ie removing para, nerfing hybrids, removing the freezer cannons abilities and dont get me started on the belt drops in warzones debate - that one was a gem.
At the end of the day dont take it personally. It was a bit of fun but since you asked I guess i had to clarify.
Nice post, all of three lines I read. But I think you're the one missing the point.
If something 'feels right' then it works, if it doesn't feel right, it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, you don't leave it in-game. What is so hard to understand? It's not like you're putting random things in place, that's obviously stupid.
Yet again I disagree with you William Antrim. You seem to completely miss the point or misinterpret what people are saying (as you did with my old thread about getting people to think about hybrids as being something other than the overpowered hybrids of 2.1). Number crunching only goes so far. Something that works logically on paper or in your head might not end up being either fun, balanced, or practical.
Changes need to be made according to what you see happening in-game, and Reakktor don't seem to do that all too often. Unless something is truly bugged, it usually ends up staying as is because they think it's "working as intended". Low level drones being utterly useless are the most recent example of this way of thinking, but hopefully they'll come to see it as a problem sometime soon.
Take the Crossbow for example. Reakktor will have crunched out some numbers for the 2.2 balancing effort, and at some point they came to the conclusion that the current Crossbow damage output is fine for its firing frequency. Yet it remains to be the most overpowered Pistol currently in-game, even more so than it was in 2.1. Anyone who has been using or been on the receiving end of one knows it needs a serious nerfing/rethinking.
A better example is the Ion Shotgun Pistol. On paper it's fine - high damage output, very slow firing frequency, except the obvious tactic from the start is to fire one shot from that weapon, which takes a hefty amount of health off your target, and then immediately switch to another weapon and continue firing. Used on its own, it's fairly balanced, but used in combination with another weapon, it's absolutely devastating. I'm surprised there isn't a clan just full of PE's or Spies taking advantage of this new Pistol zerg ability.
But erm, before I go even more off-topic and give a certain clan some thoughts, that's the general idea of what Dogface was trying to say to you.
William Antrim
15-05-07, 17:59
Nowhere did i say it was the be all and end all.
I said its a good start, you cant tweak stuff based on a blase theory of what feels right, the two go hand in hand.
Do you think a builder builds a house by laying bricks where he feels is right? No he takes the plans from the architect and applies them to the real world. If he finds that this doesnt work then he goes and advises the architect of this and the two come come up with a better plan.
I was explaining to dogface why i thought his idea was bad. I was not commenting on KKs balancing problems.
But anyway to each our own opinions. Theres merit in all of them.
You seem to completely miss the point or misinterpret what people are saying (as you did with my old thread about getting people to think about hybrids as being something other than the overpowered hybrids of 2.1)
Are you still bothered about that? I disagreed with the post not the poster.
Serious_Sam
15-05-07, 19:52
Right, back to monks.
I think things were fine in 2.1, it would be so much easier if they reverted back then. Of course the items would remain the same, i'm not the only one who's glad to see Holy Para go. And the CAG Psi gloves are a cool addition too.
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