Armour question

[Asurmen Spec Op]

Ive got a question because well, alot of ye know alot more about the new armour than me.


So can I get some advise on a good underwear thing that ISNT PA? From what I see most of them ******** either health or fireresists.

God, I never expected my resists to be weirded because I dont wear a tin suit >.>
Also where can I find the reqs/names for the 'new' Lowtech pistol rares?

[Dribble Joy]

Most of the underwear are a bit poo. Less overall armour and usually a hit to a resists and/or some other stat. PEs are generally better off with a PA.

Pistols:
Wyatt - 88
Libby - 91
Ionic shogun pistol - 95
Judge - 100
Xbow - 100
Freedom - 106
Rare nailgun, gat pistol and others are a bit high afaik and I don't know their TLs exactly.

[CMaster]

Most of the underwear are a bit poo. Less overall armour and usually a hit to a resists and/or some other stat. PEs are generally better off with a PA.

Pistols:
Wyatt - 88
Libby - 91
Ionic shogun pistol - 95
Judge - 100
Xbow - 100
Freedom - 106
Rare nailgun, gat pistol and others are a bit high afaik and I don't know their TLs exactly.

I've seen PEs runing aroud with BoHs and Slashers as well...

[Dribble Joy]

Doh, forgot those.

Slasher - 102
BoH - 105

[jini]

Take a look here: http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138824
I disagree with DJ.
You get the best defense using undewear thingies.. but you also lose in offense

[CMaster]

Take a look here: http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138824
I disagree with DJ.
You get the best defense using undewear thingies.. but you also lose in offense

The thing is, a PE can normally only where the level 2 underwears - they need to imp and possibly drug towear the more effective level 3s...

[jini]

that is also true, but I wonder about the efficiency of the "good" weapons on PEs, except a crossbow.
Then again, the ion2, is not bad choice, giving 38 xrr and energy

[Judge]

The X-Ray is the real bitch... As suits are the only thing which PEs can use which give it afaik.

[Dribble Joy]

Armour losses can be easily overcome with the way resists now work, especially with xray.

I'd rather have +67 poison, 40 fire/force and +22 (or whatever it is exactly) PC than 38 energy/xray, a negative to fire and no combat effects.

With gamma bones and a ppr you don't need to go above base 50 xray resist to bring xray defences up to the level of the others.

[Eternal Pink]

the underwear are useful if your PA doesn't give anything you need.

For example my tank uses the ion underwear for its +50 x-ray to each location since there are no tank x-ray armor. The agil malus on the underwears is also much smaller than from the PA's so if your going for a fast setup rather than a high resist one you may want to consider them.

[jini]

Armour losses can be easily overcome with the way resists now work, especially with xray.

I'd rather have +67 poison, 40 fire/force and +22 (or whatever it is exactly) PC than 38 energy/xray, a negative to fire and no combat effects.

With gamma bones and a ppr you don't need to go above base 50 xray resist to bring xray defences up to the level of the others.
Armor losses CAN'T be easily overcome, as I have clearly pointed out on my Post. A negative to fire is easily I mean EASILY solved with inqui/kevlar armor. Anyway I am bored with this. Go make fully kevlar spies and try to pvp, and then go ahead and whine of the creed/bazooka

[CMaster]

Armor losses CAN'T be easily overcome, as I have clearly pointed out on my Post. A negative to fire is easily I mean EASILY solved with inqui/kevlar armor. Anyway I am bored with this. Go make fully kevlar spies and try to pvp, and then go ahead and whine of the creed/bazooka

With about 45 base xray, my total xray resistance is slightly higher than my total fire reists from 30 base fire and 100 fire armour.
[edit]Thats not to sy that having energy armour somewhere wouldn't be great, but it can be compensatedfor at lesat on a PE - on a tank I suspect its harder.

[Asurmen Spec Op]

Thanks guys :)


Current Im using Inq and Kevlar, and the underwear that gives Xray



was kinda hoping there would be weapons near the earp =( I dont want to go for the shotgun pistol because it sounds to overpowered.

For the con I just kinda guessed it all. Got like 900HP. 45fire, 60energy 75xray 60odd poison

[jini]

With about 45 base xray, my total xray resistance is slightly higher than my total fire reists from 30 base fire and 100 fire armour.
[edit]Thats not to sy that having energy armour somewhere wouldn't be great, but it can be compensatedfor at lesat on a PE - on a tank I suspect its harder.
yes it is, but what about your actual values? I have clearly shown this.

[CMaster]

yes it is, but what about your actual values? I have clearly shown this.

The total resists are bout about 45-48%. That climbs to a bit beyond 50% with a protector on. The total xray in con after imps is something aproaching 100 though, after the big bone bonuses and also the NCPD (which will eventually be replaced by a PPR) The point is that on a PE at least its is entirely possible to compensate for an armour hole with resists. It isn't however possible to compensate for a resist hole with armour.

[Nullvoid]

It's perhaps not entirely relevant but for a tank with the ionic cotton underwear on (and all antigamma bones+filter heart 2), you only need 41 base xray to hit about 60% resist. If you ditch the ionic cotton for something like a camo PA, that figure jumps to 94 base. So by losing the armour's contribution, you need to use up an extra 116 skill points to achieve the same level of overall xray resist. Even with a tank's 100 con levels that is a fairly large amount and suggests to me that armour resists are not that easy to replace.

[CMaster]

It's perhaps not entirely relevant but for a tank with the ionic cotton underwear on (and all antigamma bones+filter heart 2), you only need 41 base xray to hit about 60% resist. If you ditch the ionic cotton for something like a camo PA, that figure jumps to 94 base. So by losing the armour's contribution, you need to use up an extra 116 skill points to achieve the same level of overall xray resist. Even with a tank's 100 con levels that is a fairly large amount and suggests to me that armour resists are not that easy to replace.

Sounds reasonable. I said I thought it may well be harder for tanks (who are always likley to already have spent a fair few points to get their resists up there)

[jini]

The total resists are bout about 45-48%. That climbs to a bit beyond 50% with a protector on. The total xray in con after imps is something aproaching 100 though, after the big bone bonuses and also the NCPD (which will eventually be replaced by a PPR) The point is that on a PE at least its is entirely possible to compensate for an armour hole with resists. It isn't however possible to compensate for a resist hole with armour.
Jesus christ CMaster. Have you played a PE? You Can't compensate for the loss in xray armor period. There is NO fucking way. I know, I have been using one of them WoC PAs myself. I hate them ALL. Worst are the Regants ones. These I can't bear. Personally I am giving it another week before people realize this.

[jini]

Here is the mathematical proof:
You claim that there is a case, where resists of con resists alone can be better than armor+resists combined. Meaning:
1-(1-res%) > 1-(1-arm%)(1-res%) => substitute res%=b, arm%=a
1-1+b > 1-(1-a-b+ab) =>
b > 1-1+a+b-ab =>
0 > a-ab =>
ab > a => b > 1

Which it means that all the above are true ONLY if there is a way for Resists%> 1, or simply to find a value in resists that is greater than 100%
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=137813
Since there isnt such a thing, then he whole logic is false, and unless we can persuade John Doe to give us Con that absorbs more than 100%, we have to use our armor :rolleyes:

All that simply tells us, that there is NO substitute for resists if you miss 50xray points, or 40poison in armor

edit2: it also means that PSR>shields/nanites>armor>resists

edit3: If we needed to do some more math. analysis, then because we are dealing with %, we have for resists with armor:

a+b-ab, or (a+b)10^-2 - ab10^4

this means that, all you gotta do is simply add what you get from resists from armor and con resists from your logs, and you get a very good approximation of the actual total resist. Reason to this is, that 10^4 is to small from the addition of armor+resists (its 1% of % of resists), so its a good approximation

[Voldemort]

Doh, forgot those.

Slasher - 102
BoH - 105

Erm...Slasher is 103 i think..
The Dreadfire Prototype is the new Nailgun and its TL 110.

[Nullvoid]

A rare nailgun huh...ppu's are sure gonna love that!

[CMaster]

Erm...Slasher is 103 i think..
The Dreadfire Prototype is the new Nailgun and its TL 110.

No, craftsman's dream is the new nailgun. Dreadfire protoype is the rare gat pistol.


Jini: of course good amour + good con skilling can't be made up for by just resists. But armour on its own, no matter how much can be easily overcome by resists, and I shalll give you logs to show it. But, the maths you say?

1-(1-res%) > 1-(1-arm%)(1-res%) => substitute res%=b, arm%=a
1-1+b > 1-(1-a-b+ab) =>
b > 1-1+a+b-ab =>
0 > a-ab =>
ab > a => b > 1
This is very nice, perfectly good maths. But the inital proposition is wrong - we are not sayint that say, 80 and 90 armour is worse than just 80 con. Thats clearly nonsences. We are saying that 10 or so con and 80 armour may be worse than 80 con. So having "b" on both sides of the equation there isn't right.

Don't get me wrong, covering all areas with armour is definatley a desirable part of a setup. But on a PE where base resists rarely go past 50, its not entirely necessary.

[jini]

Most of the underwear are a bit poo. Less overall armour and usually a hit to a resists and/or some other stat. PEs are generally better off with a PA.

This is what you are saying. My equations are correct. The above statement is totally inexcusably wrong. While you, w/o armor can reach some 45% xray resists wasting valuable con points which on occasion are more than 50, I can reach 55% with an easy invest of say 30 con points.
And I have not yet spoke of efficiency, where tanks for example which are obliged to move xray away from efficiency range.

b's on my equations are correct. I am comparing only resists versus resists+armor

[CMaster]

This is what you are saying. My equations are correct. The above statement is totally inexcusably wrong. While you, w/o armor can reach some 45% xray resists wasting valuable con points which on occasion are more than 50, I can reach 55% with an easy invest of say 30 con points.
And I have not yet spoke of efficiency, where tanks for example which are obliged to move xray away from efficiency range.

b's on my equations are correct. I am comparing only resists versus resists+armor

No, you were comparing exactly the same resist skilling with exactly the same resist skilling + armour. Of course the one with armour is going to be higher. And as said the 44 (toaling 90) base xray resist on my PE with no armour still gives me more protection than my 40 (totalling 40) base fire resist and 100 fire armour, daft as such a situation is...
I (unlike DJ) don't argue with you that a spread of both armour and resist over all damage types is very much desirable however. For tanks in fact it is probably necessary for a good setup.r

[Dribble Joy]

Well my arguement was mainly focused around PEs and to an extent spies. I haven't really looked at tanks much and I can't say for cirtain whether speccing 100 base xray would be the right way to go, it might not be, but it depends on the relative base values in the other three con resists and how much hp is optimal.

DJ gets 48% before shields in f/x/p, 49.4% in energy, 59.2% pierce and 54.8% force with 992 hp. I can't see in anyway how that would be improved by using an underwear, let alone improving it and maintaining my current dmg/freq (152% dmg 210 rpm on a Judge).

Does anyone actually hve any reduction values for the tl18 protector, tl25 absorber and the blessed def (arti dmg)? At the moment I'm bodging it with 8, 10 and 12% respectively (52.1% f/p, 53.2% x, 54.45% e, 64.1 p and 60.2% f).

[jini]

You can't use ion armor and expect to reach TL100. But spies can. In fact my spy was using a no PA setup on test server and he rocked hard. With xbow