Official Word on Hybrids?

[WICKER]

Can KK respond to the state of Hybrids in 2.2?

I'm coming back to Neocron after 3 years, and I'm focused on making a Hybrid with my almost capped Monk. However the new changes in 2.2 seem to have over nerfed the Hybrid class. Factors such as the changed implants (can't increase APU without decreasing PPU and vice versa), the attribute nerf (APU points affect PPU buffing/healing, and PPU points affects APU damage), and the high requirements of some basic spells seem to make Hybrids almost unplayable in end game compared to other classes. Hybrids also need more money due to the amount of spells they quickslot. The new ranking system has also seemed to affect the Hybrids in a negative way. Nanite Technology I'm still looking into.

Now I have been reading the boards for a few weeks, and I understand why Hybrids have been nerfed. It seems they were overpowered in 2.1, and a lot of player hate towards them has brought about the 2.2 nerfs. I agree with the general nerfs to the class, however I think their current setup in underpowered.


Can the Devs comment on their thoughts on Hybrids in 2.2, and their role in the PVE/PVP end game? Are Hybrids still being tweaked?


I'd also like to say that I'm still testing the Hybrid class, and haven't given up hope that I might find some setup that works. However I won't know if the Hybrid is viable until I cap all my stats. I also need to know the math formulas for how APU points affects PPU buffing/healing, can anyone help? Also can anyone else comment on their testing of Hybrids in 2.2?

[yuuki]

best way to make some kind of hybrid is to roll an apu using nanites. all others just suck, especially blessed hybrids as psi shields have been nerfed to the extreme unless you're a pure ppu.
kk's thoughts would be interesting tho, if they had any thoughts at all before introducing that pile of **** they call 2.2 that is.

[Dogface]

Another reason why 2.1 was better. Most of the interesting classes actually worked.

[Mighty Max]

Another reason why 2.1 was better. Most of the interesting classes actually worked.

You mean most of the "winning teams" are reworked. Yes! Yeeeeha! *cheers*

Hybrids were (since #135(?) of nc1) never a class but allways an workaround for the class seperation by the players. KK has showed more then once that a hybrid is not intended to be much stronger then the pure classes themself (hence the APU/PPU malus, opposing requirements, etc)

[yuuki]

the game is about making the character you want, if that means adjusting some skills the way they mebbe weren't intended to be by the developers these should try to bring such characters into balance, not making em nonexistent. besides if hybrids aren't intended why is there a preacher proffession? if hc pes aren't intended why can pes choose to be soldiers?
on a sidenote: interesting != winning team.
overpowered classes still exist and are even more unbeatable than before.

[Mighty Max]

Do you really think, that the hybrid would have been anywere interesting for the most ppl that played them if the pure Monkclasses would have been as viable?



why can pes choose to be soldiers?


But you understand that the ability to spec into two different classes is not the same then beeing two classes at the same time?

You can now still hybrid, there is nothing that prevents you from doing so, but don't expect to use the best of two worlds simultaneous.

[CMaster]

KK have been nerfing hybrids since as long as they have been about. Reason: they've just been plain silly powerful. Because psi defence has long been the most important, and psi attack long the most powerful, the two together have been too nasty. The blessed hybrid was the bane of NC2 - unkillable by any less than 3 players, but with the damage output of a lowtech PE. Eveventually, towards the end of NC2.1 the heal nerf arrived, and consequently hybrids almost vanished.

Now, in 2.2 any monk with more than 60 or something APU gets the lowest resistance cap in the game at 65%, and to be honest, APU attack isn't really balanced yet - even post patch 162 it probably needs to get a touch higher (or perhaps faster?). Or perhaps monks just need to stop being given 100s of agl/atl nerfs.

However, something resembling a viable hybrid should be possible. The resistance cap means its probably not worth stretching too hard for shields. A good heal could make a world of difference though, and resists will be helped out a lot by the ability to use boosters. While the APU chips ahve PPU malus and vice versa, I seem to recal that the malus is smaller than the bonus, so a combination of these, along with a DS would be practical. PPW as a skill has to be completely abandoned - my feeling for points would be to pick target spells, meet the APU/PPU and everything else in FCS. Don't forget general benefits like the power mask and the CAG 3 glove. Perhaps we could see a monk who both uses the bottom antibuffs and can attack? I don't forsee the godlike hybrids of the past, but I think there is room for something here.

[yuuki]

the problem is that just by skilling ppu you lower the percentages on your apu modules and vice versa. that's why you can't make an effective hybrid, you have to spec more points into your skills as you get mali from some imps and you can't use as many apu imps as a pure char. additionaly the psicore has been split and weapons are now adjusted by their techlevel, which makes nonrare spells not viable in pvp even if you could have a great defense, which you can't as low level heals have been nerfed as have been the psi shields.

besides, every other class had a weapon skill and some ppu for defensive capabilities. so why is it so unnatural that a monk can do the same, apu being the weaponskill and ppu being for their defense. just because the 2 subskills are under the same mainskill shouldn't be a reason they can't be played anymore.



But you understand that the ability to spec into two different classes is not the same then beeing two classes at the same time?

but you do understand that the class is monk and apu and ppu are basically skills under their main attribute?

[Mighty Max]

but you do understand that the class is monk and apu and ppu are basically skills under their main attribute?

That they are under the same mainskill is usually even more a sign that it is wished that increasing one is payed for wioth the other as it takes away skillpoints for it. For sure, there are sweet spots in their balance, yet this point shouldn't exceed a point where one of the other side becomes non existant (like the poor APU was)

That mechanic applies also for all other hybrids. Rifle and Pistol are under the same Mainskill too, yet noone complains that he can't use the viable pistols and rifles within one fight effectively. Maybe because these two skills don't match as good together (both only attack) as the psi ones (attack and defense) thus making it more difficult to smoothen out the balance at the points between APU and PPU.

Getting this balancing done, makes the class more interesting (imnsho) then the old concept with these sweet points (you can even notice it when you look at how the setups were named)

[yuuki]

erm actually you bring up a good point there. if you wished to use pistols and rifles, having to specc points for both and having to use other imps would already have the effect of forbidding you viable weapons in at least one of these classes. that is where the hybrid was in 2.1 basically.
now speccing pistols would actually lower the percentages you get on your rifles, although you already have the problem of getting em up to usable stats because you don't have unlimited skillpoints to spend. that's the main problem of the hybbie atm and that's why he's not a viable option anymore.
the problem with this whole 2.2 thing is that it isn't a balancing, but a reduction of viable setups to mebbe 4 or 5 and you could as well skip the whole skilling scheme and just make 4 classes that get fixed points distributed when they level up.

[Mighty Max]

Then we seem to have played and are playing a different game.

The remove of the skill-spikes has lead to setups that can much more freely distribute points (espacially in resis), leading to more different setups

The removeof caps has lead to the situation where you don't simply go to "max out for cap and then put all other points into xyz". Leading to more different setups.

Adding the nanites wich plays against the skills you set into your primary skill, leading to more different setup.

Closing the holes in the wepon/module chains has lead to a bigger range of viable weapons, thus supporting more different setups.

Giving the chance to move away from one (two) superior setups (the hybrid) to setups that can vary in more steps now (around other centers tho) is not removing diversity.


So really, i cant really see the "4 only setups" you are mentioning.

[yuuki]

hmm you sound like you haven't played the game at all tbh.

resis are more or less the same anyways, whether there are any sweet spots or not, just because every class has a fixed number to spend and one best set of armor to wear.

remove of caps just leads to having to put more points into your combat skills and less points into skills xyz (actually only skill x as you don't have enuff points left for yz :p )

adding the nanites that play against the skills totally fucks up balancing as only 1 class has them and would still fuck up balancing if all had them as the psi attribute is needed solely for defense if you're not an apu and thus weakens classes with higher psi.

closing the gaps between different weapons would indeed support many different setups, but that gap has actually widened.

and sry i don't get what you're trying to asy on the last argument you bring up,. (mebbe too late :p)

[T'Pol]

I tried to find a nice setup for my now ppu loomed hyb but it was just too frustrating.
The damage with blessed fire beam etc was just so low that it took 1-2 mins to kill a launcher cyclops for minimal xp.
Also the shields lost a great deal of efficency. A hyb is just a pain to play.
I really hoped that nc 2.2 would be some nice comeback for nc and i planned to pay for it again after the free time but as its now i will just stop after the free time :(

[Dogface]

The only variation 2.2 was able to bring was "I have 20 more weapon skill than you".

It deleted/nerfed all other variation.

[Nullvoid]

Well instead of making yet another hc tank looking to wield either a creed or ionic shotgun cannon, I'm currently designing a lowtech rifle setup for mine. What makes you say variety is dead?

[suler]

I want to be a pistol/rifle PE hybrid.

[kane]

Official Word on Hybrids

dev team has seen this post but has decided try to ignore it.

[yuuki]

Well instead of making yet another hc tank looking to wield either a creed or ionic shotgun cannon, I'm currently designing a lowtech rifle setup for mine. What makes you say variety is dead?

fight a hc tank on your rifler and you'll see why variety is dead.
the question is not are there many setups possible, but are there many viable setups possible.
take a pe for example:
either you go with the highest tl dex weapon you can reach or you're simply not competitive, so no more tsunami pe hi resist low damage setups and the like. hc pes can't even drive/gun most combat vehicles and just suck in pvp whatever weapons (actually the only half viable weapon is the tt epic cannon) they might choose to use. same is true for mc pes.

as tank you need to go hc or you'll loose to every other tank (as tanks are a bit out of line you may ofc go rifle and beat a pe, but that's not variety in setups, just imbalanced classes :p )

as spy you grab a beretta for pistols, a pn for drones or a sh for sniping with a hl as close combat backup.

as monk you go ppu. (if you like having the sole purpose of barreling the ug you may go apu ofc)

in 2.1 there were combat vehicles for everyone, even monks could fly combat hovertechs and still be viable pvpers, now these are basically tank only, with the exception of 2 rc vehicles (which suck btw).
every spy can use an obli now as he ofc specs enuff tc for the nanites that put him right behind the tank as damage sponges (where a class such as the spy doesn't belong imo).
for pistoleers woc is a must now as the pistols they get are way too good compared to the others.
hybrid tradeskillers are impossible to play now as you need 300ish const to even build a tl 50 weapon with good stats and you would need to skill implant to just change your gloves.
the only classes that can spec some free points on a combat setup are monks (int) and mebbe some hc tanks (dex).

i won't say 2.1 was the beacon of variety, as ofc there were weapons/setups being prefered over others (normally the not so balanced setups :p), but all in all you could at least sometimes see a char that was different and these chars weren't nessecarily on the receiving side when having a fight.

oh and fyi in 2.1 you could play a revenge droning tank that wasn't even too shabby, as well as a pe or libby tank (these sucked tho).

[Asurmen Spec Op]

Meh, really you dont need to do any of those. It all comes back to the mentality that you have to be as good as possible period. Why the hell do you need to be 'viable' if its a fun thing you can do it, and you can easilly beat most players. Jesus I always got bombarded with "blah blah your setup isn't pvp viable" sooo what?
Just have some fun

I mean judging by all the alt WOC PE's running around you could prolly take people down with a freezer pistol. So just have some fun and make a crazy setup, who cares if youre not a NC1 hybrid taking down 10 people solo without taking 10damage?

[Apocalypsox]

agreed assman, and i like the freezer idea :D *Goes to grab Freezer Rifle*

[Nixon]

Hmm.. I kinda enjoyed my PPU that used 5 slot ultimated uzi (S-337-f)

I killed people with that without a worry in the world as they had no chance of hurting me, but i hurt them.. It was hilarious when my target first just stood there and let me shoot a clip at his face, after realizing his hp had actually dropped quite a bit he started running :D

I guess it was a kind of a hybrid, ppu defense that lacked some impants and had mid-low damage.

[WICKER]

Meh, really you dont need to do any of those. It all comes back to the mentality that you have to be as good as possible period. Why the hell do you need to be 'viable' if its a fun thing you can do it, and you can easilly beat most players. Jesus I always got bombarded with "blah blah your setup isn't pvp viable" sooo what?
Just have some fun

I mean judging by all the alt WOC PE's running around you could prolly take people down with a freezer pistol. So just have some fun and make a crazy setup, who cares if youre not a NC1 hybrid taking down 10 people solo without taking 10damage?


How can u have fun when your class isn't balanced or feels weak. I play in a Guild thats hardcore PVP. If I want to OP fight with my Guild my new Hybrid better be viable.

Everybody has a different idea of what fun is, and my idea is different from yours. Some people find grinding fun. Not me, I have a job already thank u.

In every game balance is key, if its not there the game falls apart.

[Nullvoid]

I used to enjoy having my ppu setup to use a tl 45ish glare laser pistol since with a damage boost he could solo any 120/120 mob in the game. And the period when you could use a laserblade was pretty cool aswell (it just went so well with the PA). Perhaps these weren't the most viable setups, but I'll be damned if thats going to stop me from playing with them. Hell I even had him using a defender rocket launcher at one point which amused pretty much everyone I encountered :lol: .

So I'm going to create a termi/tar using tank and he is going to be a pleasure to fight with even if I never actually win a duel!

[zii]

I used to GR into Neocron with my Crahn PPU & attached others with my DEX 27 pistol (or something similar. I think it was a machine gun). I even killed some : Parashock, Damage boost, arti ammo modded machine gun). Great fun.


Once upon a time, I had a kami hybrid, and afore this I had an even better hybrid. These were much more fun... times change so time to make something else.

[Asurmen Spec Op]

How can u have fun when your class isn't balanced or feels weak. I play in a Guild thats hardcore PVP. If I want to OP fight with my Guild my new Hybrid better be viable.

Everybody has a different idea of what fun is, and my idea is different from yours. Some people find grinding fun. Not me, I have a job already thank u.

In every game balance is key, if its not there the game falls apart.
If you think I play games to grind youre sorely mistaken, I have caped ONE character EVER, and it was my fucking PE(maybe if I did the whole, afk res thing thats so popular I'd cap more).
And hell, its not my fault your OP clan doesnt care about anything but looking good on the internet. heres an idea: Dont op fight its boring anyways.
Let me sumarize your standard NC2 Opfight.
1)Make sure you have more numbers
2)Shit talk on Trade/help/OOC
3)gank the one to two people who show
4)shit talk more
5)Find a new overpowered class and make a bunch of them. IE: WoC PEs(god I'd kiss KK if they were removed)
6)repeat step 1


sounds like a fucking blast, no?
plus people with SKILL can kick your 'viable' setup's ass anyways.

[specranator]

good riddance i say... hybrids were one of the first things that started to ruin neocron if some of you forgot.

[WICKER]

If you think I play games to grind youre sorely mistaken, I have caped ONE character EVER, and it was my fucking PE(maybe if I did the whole, afk res thing thats so popular I'd cap more).
And hell, its not my fault your OP clan doesnt care about anything but looking good on the internet. heres an idea: Dont op fight its boring anyways.
Let me sumarize your standard NC2 Opfight.
1)Make sure you have more numbers
2)Shit talk on Trade/help/OOC
3)gank the one to two people who show
4)shit talk more
5)Find a new overpowered class and make a bunch of them. IE: WoC PEs(god I'd kiss KK if they were removed)
6)repeat step 1


sounds like a fucking blast, no?
plus people with SKILL can kick your 'viable' setup's ass anyways.


I said "some people" like to grind, not "u" like to grind. Yes, I'll have to agree with u about OP fights, they kind of suck these days. I'll also say that I haven't given up on the Hybrid. Also I'd like to say that they needed to be nerfed. I've always seen the Hybrid as the Monk PE, but with less damage and more def.

[Asurmen Spec Op]

I said "some people" like to grind, not "u" like to grind. Yes, I'll have to agree with u about OP fights, they kind of suck these days. I'll also say that I haven't given up on the Hybrid. Also I'd like to say that they needed to be nerfed. I've always seen the Hybrid as the Monk PE, but with less damage and more def.
good 2.1 hybrids were a PE offence with more defence.

[yuuki]

the point is that some classes have been nerfed to utter uselessnes, that's got nothing to do with balancing and some ppl want to continue to play a character that somewhat feels like the old one, mebbe been put more into a line with the other classes but not being made into sthing they've never been.

[kurai]

Hybrids are dead.

Boo fucking hoo.

Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em in all their festering holes with rusty barbed wire. Longer they stay dead the better.

[Can you tell I'm not a fan ? ;)]

Get over it and re-roll to the next Godmode bandwagon when it comes along.

[Asurmen Spec Op]

Hybrids are dead.

Boo fucking hoo.

Fuck 'em. Fuck 'em in all their festering holes with rusty barbed wire. Longer they stay dead the better.

[Can you tell I'm not a fan ? ;)]

Get over it and re-roll to the next Godmode bandwagon when it comes along.
Sounds like WoC PE :P

[WICKER]

I'm not asking for godmode, I'm asking for balance.

[suler]

Hybrid pistol/rifle PE plz

[yuuki]

Get over it and re-roll to the next Godmode bandwagon when it comes along.

the ppl that played classes just because they were imbalanced have already done just that.
threadstarter was asking to make his prefered class playable again, so he seems not to be one of these wtj but just likes his hybrid or the way it's played.
btw i'd rather fight a 2.1 apu/ppu team then a 2.2 tank/ppu team as you could at least gank the apu if he sucked.

[specranator]

the hybrid is not an intended "class" for neocron and it never was.

[Thunder]

the hybrid is not an intended "class" for neocron and it never was.
o_O maybe u should make a new char and see that there is a Hybrid monk, and if that char isn't wanted why would exist in char creation?