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John Doe
29-03-07, 17:05
We have used the last weeks to further review the theoretical principles that were set up for the balancing project, based on our impressions and your feedback. We are implementing several small changes in this patch to come closer to our goal.

Bonus-System:
The bonus system was presented and discussed in its old form sometime last year. It was supposed to provide a small, but not deciding bonus for WoC weapons – however, this advantage turned out bigger than planned. Therefore the bonus system has been adjusted to the following:

Bonus-System for weapons:
- HighTech 2.0 Percent (additive)
- Rare 7.5 Percent (exclusive)
- Epic 8.0 Percent (exclusive)
- WoC 8.0 Percent (exclusive)

All LowTech weapons have been boosted by 3% to reduce the gap between LowTech and HighTech weapons. The bonus for epic and WoC is now only 0.5% higher than the rare bonus. This adjustment should ensure that WoC weapons are what they are supposed to be:
- Alternatives to the normal weapon arsenal (damage, setting, etc.)
- Stylish, cool and nice-to-have
- No requirement for high level PvP

Melee Combat:
For melee combat we implemented a 5% penalty during the test server phase because of the very high hit chance. However, currently consider this penalty too much of a disadvantage when considering the very limited range. We also want to compensate for the missing ammo mods by adding another 7.5% damage. The combined modifications look like this:
- Melee Combat LowTech: + 15.5 Percent
- Melee Combat HighTech: + 12.5 Percent

APU Combat:
Unfortunately this category was not balanced thoroughly enough during the test server phase. Therefore it will greatly profit from this patch. There is no choice between LowTech and HighTech (+4%). There is no way to receive the ammo bonus from mods (+7.5%) and the frequencies had to be adjusted to limit failed casts, which was not considered in the balancing. The APU was designated as main damage dealer: highest damage output with the weakest resistances – the latter has been successfully implemented. APU combat receives the following adjustment:
- APU Combat: + 11.5 Percent

The frequency (and damage) adjustments remain until the problem can be remedied.

Drone Combat:
The problem with missing ammo mods is also present here – however we consider this category as fairly strong, therefore it will not be changed for now.


… The main goals of these adjustments

We hope that these changes to the bonus system will allow more weapon choices based on personal preference. We closed many gaps in the weapon choices with the Evolution 2.2 package to ensure that there are many choices for all Techlevel ranges – nobody should have a big advantage/disadvantage because of his weapon choice.

The adjustments to melee and APU shouldn’t be a problem for anyone for reasons of fairness.

The bonus reduction for WoC weapons was necessary – they are partially easier to obtain than some rare weapons. For this reason, we lowered the bonus to a minimal level. The decision to make all WoC weapon droppable is intended to make the game more dynamic and to increase the thrill somewhat – keep in mind it’s not like you can only lose a weapon, you might as well get one. Furthermore, you can protect your favorite weapon by putting it in the safe slot.


… Other explanations

Combat rank system:
Unfortunately the combat ranks were changed fairly late. The changes are based on the adjustments made to several systems and were therefore unavoidable and necessary. With this patch we implemented further adjustments – if they don’t feel right, we’d appreciate objective feedback.

Damage to implants:
This was implemented in conjunction with the scaling of bonuses based on quality and is part of the changes of the balancing project. We deactivated the scaling because the effects on the fun factor were very negative and it caused a lot of confusion with use restrictions.
The main problem with damage to implants was the magnitude of the reductions when players took damage. During the test server phase, this problem was not reported in that form and therefore wasn’t looked at sufficiently. However, we want to keep this feature, also to make the game more dynamic. Traders, Consters, Reppers and Impers need good occupation – with items that last almost forever, that problem will not go away.

Bug reports:
We pay a lot of attention to the bug report threads – however the quality of the reports sometimes leaves a lot to be desired – if you are primarily interested in an undisturbed gaming experience in Neocron, please take the time to give some detailed information that might help us to reproduce the error in a timely manner. The problem is less often with the code or data changes, but rather to reproduce the circumstances that lead to the bug. Once the circumstances are determined, the changes can often be performed fairly quickly.

On top of that, there is a considerable amount of time required to test said changes for undesired side effects – each change has to be test more or less intensely to preserve a certain quality standard. Please be aware of this and show a little more patience when we test our changes.

Balance or Non-Balance
The Creed has been evaluated repeatedly and we could not determine any abnormalities – it is definitely one of the highest weapons in the game (TL 114, HighTech, Rare, etc.) but also comparable to the rares Malediction, Doom Beamer or even the rifles First Love and Silent Hunter. However this doesn’t exclude the possibility of an error somewhere – if you something new or another player knows what the problem is, please let us know.

When comparing weapons, we’d like to point out that the respective single shot damage does not say anything about the balancing of a weapon – factors like TL, category, status and most importantly frequency have to be considered. The size of the magazine also plays a role for the frequency, as reloading leads to a period of at least 2 seconds where no damage is dealt. All these factors are the base of our balancing and are weighed in the calculations for the different weapons.

ashley watts
29-03-07, 17:09
Very nice :p, why did meele get a boost to compensate for the ammo :'(, Its allready poisen ^^

james_finn
29-03-07, 17:10
Its nice to see you working on a second balancing patch, we all knew that there were problems, and it is nice to see that you have taken onboard what people have had to say about the issues.

Plus I think dribble will be happy to see new information on WoC weapons!

/Delphi

IceStorm
29-03-07, 17:16
Balance or Non-Balance
The Creed has been evaluated repeatedly and we could not determine any abnormalities – it is definitely one of the highest weapons in the game (TL 114, HighTech, Rare, etc.) but also comparable to the rares Malediction, Doom Beamer or even the rifles First Love and Silent Hunter.Ha ha. He said First Love...

Nullvoid
29-03-07, 17:18
I think one of the big problems with the creed is that not only does it do phenomenal damage per hit (which as you say it rightly should due to its high TL), but that it gives the feeling of having a never-ending clip. In a duel the cursed soul/ravager/ionic shotgun cannon user will likely need to reload 3 and possibly 4 times before the creed user will have to make their first one. So that can be up to 8 seconds of doing no damage, while the creed user is still happily firing away at you. That is an awfully big disadvantage in my eyes. Perhaps you could cut the clip sizes of the laser cannons in half if you don't want to adjust other factors?

Logan_storm_03
29-03-07, 17:22
All good in the hood.

Yeah what makes the creed good compared to it's counter-parts is that. Take the the SH for example. It's a highly situational weapon, only good for one task. The first love? Only good close range. The creed? It can bring the pain in any situation, and now strap it onto a combat jugganaught and you're good to go.

tarasm
29-03-07, 17:22
NICE,Youve been working hard...I STILL GOP HOPE!!

Brammers
29-03-07, 17:48
Very nice, thanks for taking the time to explain the balancing patch notes in clear detail.

I may fetch my MC tank out of cold storage today. :D

Dribble Joy
29-03-07, 18:06
The problem is that the literal dmg/time values might not reflect what goes on. Are you sure you're putting reload times into it?

Regardless, all beam weapons seem to do a lot of damage, and some weapons are decidedly underpowered.

Also, as I mentioned briefly in another post PEs and possibly spies (and maybe even APUs) seem to be getting a raw deal compared to tanks, especially in OP fights or other team situations with a PPU.
Tanks do more damage, have higher armour and have higher resists, even if the PE has their self shields.
With PPU shields the PE still gains less than the tank (PE goes from about 10% to 25%, where the tank goes from 0 to 25%), making tanks far more powerful.

Even if PE shields are increased this doesn't solve this issue. PEs are supposed to be at the low dmg/high defence end of the class offence/defence spectrum, reducing tank dmg oddly put them there which seems daft.
Raising PE shield power (significantly) and letting holy shields stack on lower level ones seems the only way that were going to get real balance both solo and in a team environment.

kane
29-03-07, 18:27
wow that was fast

kurai
29-03-07, 18:49
Still haven't seen a convincing reason for closing the LowTech/HighTech gap.

Investing 175+ skill trainpoints for virtually non-existent gain over LowTech seems like a pretty shitty deal to me.

Dribble Joy
29-03-07, 18:58
The point with high and low tech is that they should be indistinguishable in end result. Similar to WoC and non-WoC it's choice and style of weapon you choose.

Previously, the low tech weapons were lower tl too, so did less dmg, getting more dex was easier so the payoff for more dmg that the high techs did, was the TC req.

However with low tech weapons reaching all the way to the top of the TL scale, why use a high tech weapon, you'd get the same dmg for the same combat skilling, but without the TC, you'd have more dmg.

In theory, high and low techs should be the same, TC now affects a range of high tech stats, so that even with less combat skill the TC makes up for this. High tech weapons should not inherantly do more damage than low techs.
Eg. A libby vs a tl92 (ignoring the rare stuff which doesn't help matters especially with melee/HC PEs).
Say you get 150% on the libby and a cirtain freq with 150 PC.
On the tl92 you have 50 TC points specced (plus imp effects), so you have 10 less PC, and get (for the sake of example) 140% dmg. However the TC increases your freq such that the overall dmg/time is the same.

Or am I missing the point of a post again....

Nullvoid
29-03-07, 19:06
The potential for higher rates of fire does seem a reasonable bonus to getting TC (does it work out meaningfully faster in practice?). I guess in a sense you also get to use nanites for 'free' since you will already be speccing lots of TC for your weaponry. And lastly, you get to stealth around like mad, which is something I think you enjoy kurai :)

kurai
29-03-07, 19:30
Aah - yes, of course. Good point. I didn't take into account the influence of T-C on Aiming, Accuracy, Frequency, Range & Handling.

And lastly, you get to stealth around like mad, which is something I think you enjoy kurai :) Me ? Stealth ? I have no idea what you are talking about. * vanishes * ;)

[F6]Knight
29-03-07, 19:33
removed my statement. have to read up on some things first

zii
29-03-07, 20:13
I am very pleased to see these explanation notes. Thank-you.

Eternal Pink
29-03-07, 20:19
The point with high and low tech is that they should be indistinguishable in end result. Similar to WoC and non-WoC it's choice and style of weapon you choose.

Previously, the low tech weapons were lower tl too, so did less dmg, getting more dex was easier so the payoff for more dmg that the high techs did, was the TC req.

However with low tech weapons reaching all the way to the top of the TL scale, why use a high tech weapon, you'd get the same dmg for the same combat skilling, but without the TC, you'd have more dmg.

In theory, high and low techs should be the same, TC now affects a range of high tech stats, so that even with less combat skill the TC makes up for this. High tech weapons should not inherantly do more damage than low techs.
Eg. A libby vs a tl92 (ignoring the rare stuff which doesn't help matters especially with melee/HC PEs).
Say you get 150% on the libby and a cirtain freq with 150 PC.
On the tl92 you have 50 TC points specced (plus imp effects), so you have 10 less PC, and get (for the sake of example) 140% dmg. However the TC increases your freq such that the overall dmg/time is the same.

Or am I missing the point of a post again....

Surely the difference between low tech and high tech should be the damage type, not the damage output.

With low tech you are mainly doing force or pierce damage which is good for fighting monks/spies.

With high tech you are mainly doing energy which is good for fighting tanks and PE's.

So by having the same output on both catagories but different types of damage produced its more a case of picking the right tool for the job rather than just running around with the same gun for all situations ( which is what mainly happens now )

Also i thought the whole concept of PE's was that they were fighters that could stand on there own whether in a op fight or just in the wastelands in general, characters that didnt constantly need support from others. If your a tank at a OP fight and your PPU is bad/gets distracted your one dead tank, a PE on the other hand can stealth away, heal up quickly and come back and rejoin the fight.

To my mind a PE shouldn't be made to go toe to toe with a tank in a fight simply because that isn't what the class is designed for.

Lastly are you going to fix construction with this patch? :)

ashley watts
29-03-07, 20:31
The Creed has been evaluated repeatedly and we could not determine any abnormalities – it is definitely one of the highest weapons in the game (TL 114, HighTech, Rare, etc.) but also comparable to the rares Malediction, Doom Beamer or even the rifles First Love and Silent Hunter. However this doesn’t exclude the possibility of an error somewhere – if you something new or another player knows what the problem is, please let us know

Lol, highest Techlevel But still no where as near as balanced as the dissruptor or First love. It's overpowered and you can't deny it. (So is the dev on that note) o0

silent000
29-03-07, 20:45
Is there any GMs that know how to PvP now? Silentium used to but is there any GM that understand what is overpowered and what isnt?

Dribble Joy
29-03-07, 20:49
Surely the difference between low tech and high tech should be the damage type, not the damage output.

With low tech you are mainly doing force or pierce damage which is good for fighting monks/spies.

With high tech you are mainly doing energy which is good for fighting tanks and PE's.
Yes, overall dmg/time should be the same, that was the main point about my post, rather than high tchs inherantly doing more damage.

As to needing specific dmg types against different classes. I'd hardly call it balance or fairness. Niether for those classes receiving it nor those wielding the weapons (not everyone wants to carry around several weapons).


Also i thought the whole concept of PE's was that they were fighters that could stand on there own whether in a op fight or just in the wastelands in general, characters that didnt constantly need support from others. If your a tank at a OP fight and your PPU is bad/gets distracted your one dead tank, a PE on the other hand can stealth away, heal up quickly and come back and rejoin the fight.

To my mind a PE shouldn't be made to go toe to toe with a tank in a fight simply because that isn't what the class is designed for.
Why shouldn't a PE be able to be equal in a fight with a tank? What's the point of making a PE at all?
Surely a person's combat class selection should have no overall impact on their capacity to be valuable to a team or ability to fight solo?

You can't heal up quickly on a PE as their heal is about the same as a tank's, and without a PPU a tank is still more powerful than a PE.

extant
29-03-07, 20:51
Is there any GMs that know how to PvP now? Silentium used to but is there any GM that understand what is overpowered and what isnt?

I've been reading these forums for the first time in ages and posts like that are just ignorant. Unless you have something to contribute than there's really no need to post.

SorkZmok
29-03-07, 21:06
I think the biggest problem about weapons being balanced by their damage over time is that this has got fuck all to do with pvp. It is nice for pve where in the end all rares should do the same but in pvp, fights are over fast.

You can not balance guns over damage and time when the actual time of an average fight is a lot less. At least thats where i think might be one of the main problems with guns like the creed.


/edit
@extant, he's right though. It seriously seems that the people who are trying to balance this game don't pvp at all.

Eternal Pink
29-03-07, 21:18
I'm not saying a PE shouldn't be equal to a tank in a fight, i'm saying that in a fight where a PE and a tank run up to each other and slug it out, the tank should win since by definition of the class a tank is a high damage, high resistance meat sack designed to take punishment and deal it out which a PE also by its class definition isnt.

And yes someones character selection should effect there valuableness to a team and there ability to fight solo, the whole point of having different classes is that they have different strengths and weaknesses and if i manage to use the strength of my class better than you use the strength of your class then i should win in a fight.

So yes if you want to make a char to slug it out in a fight don't make a PE since under your view ( or as i'm percieving it ) all you want is a tank with a PE avator which totally removes the point of having classes to begin with.

Dribble Joy
29-03-07, 21:20
You can not balance guns over damage and time when the actual time of an average fight is a lot less.
Less than what? Balancing over 1 minute is the same as balancing over 1 second.

Problem is that some weapons don't adhere to the dmg/time/tl system. Beam weapons rarely if ever mis (even with low recticle closure) where some reguarly miss a substantial proportion of their shots.


I'm not saying a PE shouldn't be equal to a tank in a fight, i'm saying that in a fight where a PE and a tank run up to each other and slug it out, the tank should win since by definition of the class a tank is a high damage, high resistance meat sack designed to take punishment and deal it out which a PE also by its class definition isnt.
By definition the fight should be equal otherwise why use anything but a tank?


And yes someones character selection should effect there valuableness to a team and there ability to fight solo, the whole point of having different classes is that they have different strengths and weaknesses and if i manage to use the strength of my class better than you use the strength of your class then i should win in a fight.
The point is that not all the classes are equally valuable.


So yes if you want to make a char to slug it out in a fight don't make a PE since under your view ( or as i'm percieving it ) all you want is a tank with a PE avator which totally removes the point of having classes to begin with.
The classes represent different playstyles, and subclasses within those give further variations on those.
Some people like high dmg/low defence type charaters, others the opposite. Then there's the different ways that they do things, but all add up to the same overall.
Other wise we will end up with nothing but tanks and PPUs.

John Doe
29-03-07, 22:24
So please stay constructive ...

What is so special? Is it the damage or the damage types, is it the frequency, is it the range, is it highspeed-aim, is it the clip-size or is it the techlevel? Is it a combination?

What I was trying to mention was that the figures looks good - I can't find any reasons for categorize the creed as overpowered. Possible reasons:
- I can't find that s...
- Damage from H-C weapons is too high

What I can do is to "let my thumb mangage this issue" - but this will be worst solution I think.

Let me explain my examples - the other weapons are relatively to the creed (based on their theoretical damage output):
Malediction: 90 % (TL 107)
Doom Beamer: 97 % (TL 112)
First Love: 88 % (TL 114 - Rifle)
Silent Hunter: 93 % (TL 111 - Rifle)

So please answer me one question: What is the big difference between the Doom Beamer and the Creed? If you know PvP indepth this should be easy I think. The clip-size and the frequency is nearly the same ...

Eternal Pink
29-03-07, 22:40
I'm not gonna quote becuz we'll end up with half a page full of quotes at this rate.

My whole point is that if you as a PE get into a fight with a tank and you just slug it out, you are fighting on the tanks terms therefore you should loose since that isn't a equal fight, the tanks using his strength against you.

PE's have advantages over tanks, stealth, speed, psi (i'd say nanites as well but i've not tried PE nanites yet so i don't know about there usefulness) which when used correctly can easily beat a tank, in your scenario your using none of them so you should loose.

Now take my scenario, you see a tank, you buff yourself up with shields which a tank can't do, you stealth near to him for position which a tank can't do, you smack a DB on the tank which the tank can't do, you hurt the tank then if needed stealth out and heal ( And PE's still outheal tanks, if you can't then your doing something wrong ) you go back and waste the tank.

In that scenario you used the strengths of your class to win.

From what your saying it sounds like you just want a generic player character that's identical to everybody else which as i said removes the whole point of the class system.

And yes all classes are equally valuable, you've mentioned PPU's, two good PE's working together can waste a tank even if he's PPU'd and then go on to waste the PPU as well.

calim
30-03-07, 02:35
what about the frequency of the Disruptor next to the First love ? It's almost the same TL level, but they are so much different in term of PvP situation !!!

Safunte
30-03-07, 03:48
Balance or Non-Balance
The Creed has been evaluated repeatedly and we could not determine any abnormalities – it is definitely one of the highest weapons in the game (TL 114, HighTech, Rare, etc.) but also comparable to the rares Malediction, Doom Beamer or even the rifles First Love and Silent Hunter. However this doesn’t exclude the possibility of an error somewhere – if you something new or another player knows what the problem is, please let us know.


This is not specific to the creed, its any and all laserweapons... not specific to cannons. I believe the problem lies in the damage taken and then recalculation of resists and armor... this is seen by many health bounces when taking damage from the weapons... So the problem there lies, if you get hit by one continuously it does imaginarily more damage before it jumps back, but if you hit 0 health before the jump, you just die.

StevenJ
30-03-07, 05:09
what about the frequency of the Disruptor next to the First love ? It's almost the same TL level, but they are so much different in term of PvP situation !!!

I think the disruptor is quite sexy. You can't just hold your mouse-button down whilst fighting, you've to time your shots. Sure, it's a pain in the arse if you miss, but if you hit you're going to do some damage. If it shot in the same manner as the First Love, then I don't think there'd be much point in having them both ingame.

eprodigy
30-03-07, 06:17
..
all classes should be equal in a 1vs1 fair fight. all that has to be said.

things even themselves out. each has an advantage for each disadvantage. tanks con, pe has psi to even that out. more damage, more speed, etc. it isnt every class being identical, its every class having even pros and cons making them equal 1 on 1.

the only thing that probably doesnt is stealth.. and that shouldnt even exist in the game at all in its current form. or at least shouldnt be arbitrarily be a spy/pe item.

jini
30-03-07, 07:01
So please stay constructive ...

What is so special? Is it the damage or the damage types, is it the frequency, is it the range, is it highspeed-aim, is it the clip-size or is it the techlevel? Is it a combination?

What I was trying to mention was that the figures looks good - I can't find any reasons for categorize the creed as overpowered. Possible reasons:
- I can't find that s...
- Damage from H-C weapons is too high

What I can do is to "let my thumb mangage this issue" - but this will be worst solution I think.

Let me explain my examples - the other weapons are relatively to the creed (based on their theoretical damage output):
Malediction: 90 % (TL 107)
Doom Beamer: 97 % (TL 112)
First Love: 88 % (TL 114 - Rifle)
Silent Hunter: 93 % (TL 111 - Rifle)

So please answer me one question: What is the big difference between the Doom Beamer and the Creed? If you know PvP indepth this should be easy I think. The clip-size and the frequency is nearly the same ...
John. I will try and test that thing once more. It didnt seemed so powerful when I was fighting against it in an OP. But when I got hit two times with it in MB, I lost almost all my hp. There seems to be a bug somewhere that is hard to reproduce, much like another bug I have, when I am getting rezzed: The PA bug. The PA seems lit, but is actually dark, and I have to zone in order for it to work. Otherwise I have no weapon.

awkward silence
30-03-07, 07:07
I'm not gonna quote becuz we'll end up with half a page full of quotes at this rate.

My whole point is that if you as a PE get into a fight with a tank and you just slug it out, you are fighting on the tanks terms therefore you should loose since that isn't a equal fight, the tanks using his strength against you.

PE's have advantages over tanks, stealth, speed, psi (i'd say nanites as well but i've not tried PE nanites yet so i don't know about there usefulness) which when used correctly can easily beat a tank, in your scenario your using none of them so you should loose.

Now take my scenario, you see a tank, you buff yourself up with shields which a tank can't do, you stealth near to him for position which a tank can't do, you smack a DB on the tank which the tank can't do, you hurt the tank then if needed stealth out and heal ( And PE's still outheal tanks, if you can't then your doing something wrong ) you go back and waste the tank.

In that scenario you used the strengths of your class to win.

From what your saying it sounds like you just want a generic player character that's identical to everybody else which as i said removes the whole point of the class system.

And yes all classes are equally valuable, you've mentioned PPU's, two good PE's working together can waste a tank even if he's PPU'd and then go on to waste the PPU as well.

Firstly: The PE stealth is only 5 seconds... which is practically not enough for any kind of ambushing.

Secondly: Speed... tanks are either as fast as PE's or faster. It is not possible to make a setup in which a PE is much faster than a tank. While tanks get serious nerfs they still have most of their agi to spec on.

Thirdly: A damage boost id a waste of time. You do more damage over time without DBing someone, since the effect doesnt last long and you waste time you could have been damaging people.

Fourthly: PE nanites are a wast of time... i dont know a single dedicated PE that has bothered to spec for them... at the further expence of their psi shield.

Lastly:...but most importantly the PE psi shields were nerfed by almost 40%, that hurt PE's really bad. While i believe it was meant to tune PPU's shields across all TL's the PE's got this to bare. Ironically a spy can have a defence a tad better and use the best guns.

Tanks are not the issue (bar a few weapons they seem to have), but the fact that the PE's A/P/D was nefred and that put us off and a bit below the charts.

Try playing a PE :)

ps. Theres not much difference on the Jones heal and nanite heal. Yes its a bit more powerfull but if you're doing 2 more healing, while hes got a tons better damage and resists.

SorkZmok
30-03-07, 08:17
Less than what? Balancing over 1 minute is the same as balancing over 1 second.

Problem is that some weapons don't adhere to the dmg/time/tl system. Beam weapons rarely if ever mis (even with low recticle closure) where some reguarly miss a substantial proportion of their shots.
The superior aiming of some weapons is another factor why beam and ray weapons are so much better i guess.

And on the dot issue, i'm still convinced there is an issue with short fights but i gotta try and figure that out first because i can't really explain what i mean. :lol:

Doc Holliday
30-03-07, 08:49
On the subject of imps getting wrecked would it not be a better idea to just make em damage more when they pop than to take damage whilst inside the runner. i know u will scream about people logging off waiting for the ppu to come rez etc but seriously i think this will be done on a relative minority compared to the majority of players.

With the gr rules as they are where clans can lock down the map and if your not in a clan your screwed i dont wanna trek half way accross the map to a levelling spot for 2 minutes of hard graft only 2 see 2 important chips pop out wrecked and me not be able to use a gun for example.

its the only gripe i really have about all this change. even the glove poke business is fine as i think it is a great idea. its just this implant business that im not keen on and im sure others will agree.

ps whats the imp skill needed to put gloves on and take off? pm me someone please as i could do with knowing. :)

solling
30-03-07, 09:17
Thirdly: A damage boost id a waste of time. You do more damage over time without DBing someone, since the effect doesnt last long and you waste time you could have been damaging people.

Damage boost last for over a minute now i belive no ?

Nullvoid
30-03-07, 11:43
ps whats the imp skill needed to put gloves on and take off? pm me someone please as i could do with knowing. :)

The gloves are tl 60 so I guess that is how much skill you'd need to switch back and forwards between them.

Vryce
30-03-07, 12:44
...................................
even the glove poke business is fine as i think it is a great idea.

ps whats the imp skill needed to put gloves on and take off? pm me someone please as i could do with knowing. :)


The gloves are tl 60 so I guess that is how much skill you'd need to switch back and forwards between them.

Personally, I think its a bad idea - re: Nullvoid's answer, never mind the wear and tear when you swap it in and out. Now you need to spec 60 imp, or run to TH if you want to do any trade skill (maybe that's the real reason). Max and someone else explained the reasoning in another thread, but, come on .... it's a glove. :p

calim
30-03-07, 12:51
There is a problem which remains for me about implants condition : from my point of view that's not fair that an MC5 implant TL115 that cost many millions is going wrecked as fast as a little TL10 one...

Nullvoid
30-03-07, 13:00
Personally, I think its a bad idea - re: Nullvoid's answer, never mind the wear and tear when you swap it in and out. Now you need to spec 60 imp, or run to TH if you want to do any trade skill (maybe that's the real reason). Max and someone else explained the reasoning in another thread, but, come on .... it's a glove. :p

I do agree actually. I used to have a single hybrid tradeskiller (cst, res, barter) who could take care of (and cap) almost any non-rare item quite effectively all by himself. Now with the gloves needing implanted, and cst having to be so super high, I've had to roll another runner to take care of the research and bartering. I realise kk want more social interaction but it's just horrible to have to sit there spamming trade and other channels trying to get help for one link in the item building process so that you can get on with the rest.

IceStorm
30-03-07, 16:31
I do agree actually. I used to have a single hybrid tradeskiller (cst, res, barter) who could take care of (and cap) almost any non-rare item quite effectively all by himself. Now with the gloves needing implanted, and cst having to be so super high, I've had to roll another runner to take care of the research and bartering.Yeah, the good old days are gone. I don't know what I'm going to do with my main.

There is a problem which remains for me about implants condition : from my point of view that's not fair that an MC5 implant TL115 that cost many millions is going wrecked as fast as a little TL10 one...If it's getting wrecked as fast as a TL10 imp, that's an improvement!

Doc Holliday
30-03-07, 16:35
tl60 is a load of crap. thats rediculous. 30 woulda been ok or even 15. i was hopeing to spec imp on a research/repair char with barter as well and a tiny bit of implant skill to allow glove swapping. im 5 dex levels of cap fully (Skipping woc ofc) and now he is effectively nerfed in a big way. might as well sit with the res glove on permanantly rather than have to spam for a poker especially if the pops dip again after the trial. some individual independence would have been nice but that along with the imps damaging problem really are my only 2 gripes about this whole expansion. i hope that this is looked in to and addressed if enough people argue against it.

IceStorm
30-03-07, 16:55
tl60 is a load of crap. thats rediculous. 30 woulda been ok or even 15. i was hopeing to spec imp on a research/repair char with barter as well and a tiny bit of implant skill to allow glove swapping.While you won't want IMP on a dedicated constructor, it's possible on a resser if you're just going for a target of 244 RES. Don't forget that you can get 24.17 IMP from drugs alone right now. Figure another PPU butt-buddy boost of, what, 10? 15? and then you only have to burn 20 to 25 INT points on IMP (You need your PPU pal for max RES anyway). Even without a PPU, it's only 35 INT pts.

If you're a CSTer? Well, you're a dedicated char with a PPU and a stack of drugs and maybe even a Factory, so you won't need imp after you get the glove installed the first time.

I guess the Nanite tools don't need imp? Shame. They did on test. I guess they moved the req to Psi FCS.

Okran
30-03-07, 19:18
Some nice work here, well done to the team. I am a database developer and I can appreciate things are tough to sort out. Although this is a game and is obviously on a much larger scale.

I only have one quibble, question, whatever you want to call it:
If implants are going to take damage and I can see that traders do benefit from this quite well, can we please make MC5 cpu's non-breakable like epic cpu's?
The reason is this: I could create a new char and get the Epic done and get the Epic cpu in less time than it would take to get a new MC5 cpu.

calim
31-03-07, 11:53
The main problem with damage to implants was the magnitude of the reductions when players took damage. During the test server phase, this problem was not reported in that form and therefore wasn’t looked at sufficiently. However, we want to keep this feature, also to make the game more dynamic. Traders, Consters, Reppers and Impers need good occupation – with items that last almost forever, that problem will not go away.

So, is the message "implant has been damaged a little" is still present ?
(I'm not very interested to log in for now... )
Because it should be "implant has been damaged a little in implant process and will be damaged when your body take damage".

JohnGalt
01-04-07, 18:32
I see no specfic comment addressing the LE taking damage.