View Full Version : Suggestion that LEers will probably hate
Dribble Joy
25-03-07, 23:16
This generally depends on why those using the LE do so.
Basically, the the idea is a partial return to NC1, with the LE giving an exp gain reduction. If you're here to PvM, then with NC's (hopefully to be at least partly restored) quick leveling speed, you're not going to be doing much untill you cap. So in a sense it's not only about rewarding people for removing it, but about giving those who use it more time to do what they want.
LE tradeskillers I am unsure about. Non-LE traders (those in a clan) have removed their LE and leave themselves open to attack, more so as they are unable to defend themselves. On the other hand they don't really open themselves to attack and they're a bit daft if they do and it doesn't help the LEed tradeskillers if all the non-LEed ones are all better than them.
I've always thought there should be a big incentive for removing the LE too rather than allowing people to keep it in with no penalty. A slight experience decrease was never enough of a penalty IMO either, it didn't really make much of a difference. More should be done to make people focus on the end-game activies, which is basically PvP, rather than PvM.
At the moment it's as if a big leap has been taken backwards in regards to PvP, with currently unbalanced PvM (which will hopefully be changed soon), and mass of new rare tech parts added into the equation. More grinding, less fun PvPing.
Dribble Joy
25-03-07, 23:24
Btw, techs are easy to get if you know where to go.
Mighty Max
25-03-07, 23:37
Just some questions i dont understand:
Why does a non-LEer even care about the penalties of a LE wearing player?
Why is there this trend to moan for more features but the constant whish to take away one doesnt use.
What do you expect from this change?
Wouldn't that not increase the difficulty for new players to find their way in Neocron thus increasing the chance to scare them away before they get to the point that they serve you some PvP action?
Apocalypsox
25-03-07, 23:44
Agreed Dribble. Techs are very easy to get if you know your stuff.
Anyways, i think it would be a great idea to bring it back. I thought it was crap that LEs had no penalty the day NC2 came out.
Dribble Joy
25-03-07, 23:46
Why does a non-LEer even care about the penalties of a LE wearing player?
Because it works both ways, why should an LEer maintain many of the benefits of non-LE use without the risks/downsides?
Why is there this trend to moan for more features but the constant whish to take away one doesnt use.
Removal and alteration are different thing. I dislike stealth, and I hate using it, but I don't want it removed, I just want it changed.
What do you expect from this change?
Greater incentive for people to remove it.
Wouldn't that not increase the difficulty for new players to find their way in Neocron thus increasing the chance to scare them away before they get to the point that they serve you some PvP action?
Perhaps. Though it depends on whether you think people will want to remove it and run the risk of PvP when they aren't ready in order to gain from the removal's benefits, or not.
Mighty Max
25-03-07, 23:51
Anyways, i think it would be a great idea to bring it back. I thought it was crap that LEs had no penalty the day NC2 came out.
You play the same game, dont you?
No penalties?
- No Clanning (thus no Clanboni for OPs, drastically reducing skillpoints for tradeskillers)
- Less slots for Implants (thus again less boni in skills)
- Less team support
- No PvP
....
You won't magically turn a non-PvPer into a PvPer by this mean, if that is what you want. You should rather concentrate on featuring some fair PvP action they want to join to change their mind instead of nerfing and pushing them away.
Greater incentive for people to remove it.
This is not what will come in return. A Nerf (and this is one) allways reduces dynamic instead of increasing it.
You play the same game, dont you?
No penalties?
- No Clanning (thus no Clanboni for OPs, drastically reducing skillpoints for tradeskillers)
- Less slots for Implants (thus again less boni in skills)
- Less team support
- No PvP
....
You won't magically turn a non-PvPer into a PvPer by this mean, if that is what you want. You should rather concentrate on featuring some fair PvP action they want to join to change their mind instead of nerfing and pushing them away.
This is not what will come in return. A Nerf (and this is one) allways reduces dynamic instead of increasing it.
thumbs up!
Dribble Joy
26-03-07, 00:00
You won't magically turn a non-PvPer into a PvPer by this mean, if that is what you want. You should rather concentrate on featuring some fair PvP action they want to join to change their mind instead of nerfing and pushing them away.
Again, it's a matter of if you think this will push them away or or incite them to join you. I'm more on the side of the latter.
In the end I'm not personally fussed about this issue when it really comes down to it. But I think this is a debate that needs to put out there once in a while.
Archtemplar
26-03-07, 00:00
To add to the list of LE negatives:
-No belt hacking/retrieving
An xp neg would be, like mighty max said, unbalancing and pushing noobs away even more. What would the point be in getting all the tradeskillers to remove the le? Someone need to get free kills?
Obsidian X
26-03-07, 00:02
Everytime I see this re-hashed idea I'm going to disagree with it on these forums. Why? Lets see:
Now more than ever, the loss of a 4th brainslot is a massive penalty in itself.
LE'd PPUs are still not too common (granted there are a couple). Again, with the stupid strength of mobs, this is also a massive malus
The same applies to not being able to join a clan
New runners level far too fast, lets slow that down too :rolleyes:
There are a community of LE runners that have no intention of removing it. Why do they need to be penalised on the whim of runners from the non-LE side. WoC is a pita for anybody, why should it take even longer just because a user wants to wear an LE?
I'm sure theres many more reasons against, but lets put that aside and look at what this suggestion offers. See, everytime I see this argument, there is usually stupid reasoning or no reasoning whatsoever behind it. Stupid reasoning includes, but is not limited to quotes such as "If people want to have an LE and shittalk/be carebears/are too afraid of getting owned then they should suffer a penalty". What does this actually offer anyone at all? More noobs to gank for the non LE runners? I really don't see the point at all.
And before anyone says it, no I'm not a perma-LE runner, I have one or two that I use for tech hunting purposes, that aren't equipped nor designed for PvP. Admittedly with 2.2 they don't do PvE well either but thats neither here nor there.
I'm not having a go, but I don't see any positive reasoning at all behind this idea. Thumbs down.
Dribble Joy
26-03-07, 00:02
To add to the list of LE negatives:
-No belt hacking/retrieving
But on the other hand no belt loss.
An xp neg would be, like mighty max said, unbalancing and pushing noobs away even more. What would the point be in getting all the tradeskillers to remove the le? Someone need to get free kills?
Do non-LE tradeskilers run about in OP fights or hang around MB zone line?
New runners level far too fast, lets slow that down too :rolleyes:
Level 0-30 leveling speed could be kept at the same speed, LE or not.
There are a community of LE runners that have no intention of removing it. Why do they need to be penalised on the whim of runners from the non-LE side. WoC is a pita for anybody, why should it take even longer just because a user wants to wear an LE? [/list]
My personal opinion would be that as a LEer I would not want to level up through the game in a matter of weeks and be done with it.
See, everytime I see this argument, there is usually stupid reasoning or no reasoning whatsoever behind it. Stupid reasoning includes, but is not limited to quotes such as "If people want to have an LE and shittalk/be carebears/are too afraid of getting owned then they should suffer a penalty". What does this actually offer anyone at all? More noobs to gank for the non LE runners? I really don't see the point at all.
Using stupid as a method of debate hardly promotes your position.
Yes there are reasonings for LE negatives that are based purely on the desires of those non-LE users who want nothing more to kill anything that cannot fight back, as in the end they're little more than bullies and probably (in all likelyhood literally) get off on doing it.
Addressing those reasonings/people however, and not those which/who are trying to find a real balance between the two groups of users, is not going to resolve the situation, and is going to drive them appart further. LE users, as much as non-LE users, can be equally aggrogant, defensive and unwilling to see things from the other side.
Perhaps my idea of (partially) playing the devil here and getting a debate was pointless, as people just aren't going to move from the trenches they have dug, either because they can't or won't.
Appologies if that was all a bit blunt.
I think we should ban Dribble Joy that takes care if this topic.
Apocalypsox
26-03-07, 01:24
Drib has contributed to NC far more than you ever have Kane. I think we should ban you not being productive :o
Do non-LE tradeskilers run about in OP fights or hang around MB zone line?Yes, to both. I use ops and have been in the middle of op battles while doing RES or CST at the op's GG. Typically I'm there before they start and I stay until someone toggles the op's status.
I also hunt in J_01/J_02, along with my CM using HN to ring through Mil Base on my way to other location. I pass the zoneline stupidity at least once a day when I play.
My personal opinion would be that as a LEer I would not want to level up through the game in a matter of weeks and be done with it.Some of us do not care to level up in a "matter of weeks". Some of us play the game as intended. We don't all find the shortest route to cap and then stick to it. It took me 16 months to cap my main. I have no other capped chars. I obviously don't care all that much about capping in the fastest manner possible.
Perhaps my idea of (partially) playing the devil here and getting a debate was pointless, as people just aren't going to move from the trenches they have dug, either because they can't or won't.Why would I want to? You want me to effectively play PlanetSide. I do not wish to play PlanetSide. If I did, I'd play PlanetSide.
I reserve the right to be a lone player who interacts with who I want, when I want, with what faction I want. I reserve the right to ignore stupid gankers by simply standing there. I reserver the right to keep my vehicles intact by simply getting in them. It's what I pay for. Stop meddling with my fun just becasue your fun sucks.
LE and safezones suck but they're there to cover up some faults in neocron design.
If you remove LE before being PvP ready, you're going to be affected by a massive exp/h reduction called random ganking. Losing equipment (and money) at increased rate doesn't help either. Being stuck in mid-levels without money sucks. Those people won't PvP because they're too weak, they'll be avoiding it until they'll cap, assuming they won't cancel subscribtion earlier.
Of course this doesn't apply to players with rich alts/friends, who can kill or scare the ganker, have two ppu buttplugs plus apu to aggro mobs, garage full of vehicles with drivers and can const five slot equipment for ultimate levelling experience.
The end-game of NC is PvP, so keep it end-game and don't penalize others for not being PvP-ready yet.
The other option is to make PvP viable at all levels, but since nc is becoming more and more capped-player oriented, this is prolly impossible. Low lvl's can't just go to PP or sewers anymore to have some fights with other low-lvl reds. You have to be capped these days.
Archtemplar
26-03-07, 03:25
I remember a time when in order to complete epics you HAD to have your LE out, and that is why some of my characters dont have LEs. After ripping them out, leveling became a solo adventure to places where no one goes, just to hide from the world until i became capped.
Perhaps my idea of (partially) playing the devil here and getting a debate was pointless, as people just aren't going to move from the trenches they have dug, either because they can't or won't.
People unfortunately won't change if they've been relying on their carebear enforcer since day one.
Drib has contributed to NC far more than you ever have Kane. I think we should ban you not being productive :o
Quoted for truth !
Anyway.. I think (Well, what I really think is that the LE should be removed) players shouldn't be punished for keeping the LE in (like a -% XP reduction) but players should be rewarded for removing it (like a +% XP gain). This way all the carebears are happy without throwing their toys out the pram and quitting and the real players who want to experience NC the way it should be, can (and still have the upper hand to LEd players).
There are loads of possibilities to encourage people to remove LEs and this is just one of them. For example you could stop them from using rares (considering the stories behind rare weapons were all about killing mass amounts of people or something similar) or you could prevent LEd runners from completing epics or changing factions.
Sooo many people have admitted the reason Neptune died was because everyone ran around as LEd players. Yet they still aren't prepared to see it go or even change. How do you know the LE isn't having the same effect (of course on a slower scale) on Terra?
I'm pretty much 100% certain the only reason people don't want the LE removed is so they don't get killed by players. What else could it possibly be? Why are people soo afraid of dying? Don't want to drop a belt? If your excuse is that you're a trader then you should probably stick to either OP zones or TH. There is no reason why you should be in any other zone really. If you do happen to lose a belt, make yourself another item, you're a trader right?
Spec some stealth if you're that bothered about being killed.
If you're worried about PKers then join a clan (it's easy enough) and have some friends sort them out for you. Getting your friends to kill someone (or logging an alt and doing it yourself) is much more satisfying than simply having a carebear chip in your head and standing there loling at them.
With the way NC comes across as a game, the LAST thing I would have expected the game to have was something like an LE (Danger around every corner..?). The idea isn't to force people to pvp, not at all. They can just stand there and die if they please. Encouraging people to join a clan and to support lower lvl players, to pvp at lower lvls (although I don't really think I'd enjoy it at all, others probably would). It would be nice if I could run around a zone and meet a non-LEd person that wasn't a capped pvper, maybe grab some free soul light if I really need it. Also, the only item that's needed for lvling that's expensive is a vehicle. Everything else can be replaced very easily.
I guess it's a waste of time like DJ said trying to convince people the LE is the devil. I find it ironic that people are moaning at players like me to adapt and change to something like 2.2, but I know if we asked them to do the same with the LE they'd be having none of it.
I remember a time when in order to complete epics you HAD to have your LE out, and that is why some of my characters dont have LEs.See, I had no problem with that, to the tune of I had figured out how to build a new char, do all the epics, and end with the LE installed (I did BT when kills were required and ended with the LE installed). They changed the rules before I could do the rest on a char I cared about.
let me put this way.
I use to be a le should never be in the game our falls out at like rank 30...
But reasons why I'm against this now.
- Some people truly love pveing in NC its true.
- More chance of people trying out the game staying
- To many grifers now who will pk any low level.
- Even zones made as SafeZones Pkers still come and pk people.
- Most zones suck in NC so a lot of people have to venture out of nc to level. Without a LE some these places over camped and would have pking wars.
- Many players now have more then 1 account or have a anti and pro causing issues for people who want revenge and such on poor people who just want to level
- Tradeskillers are needed. Lot these need OP to help them become greater and better at there trades. Without a LE they can be pked a lot and causing the tradeskiller to rethink there current profession.
- Theres so many bugs and flaws when leveling up it just sucks with out a le.
- Tight leveling areas where you use maybe aoe would cause a lot of accidental pking.
I could go on forever :P sorry for my bad english
- Some people truly love pveing in NC its true.
Removing LE doesn't stop you from PvEing. Doesn't prevent you from killing mobs.
- More chance of people trying out the game staying
Depends completely on the type of player.
- To many grifers now who will pk any low level.
Proof? If everyone was unLEd then each individual player would die less. But if you level an unLEd char among ten LEd, who's going to get PK'd?
- Even zones made as SafeZones Pkers still come and pk people.
Not sure what you're saying there, sorry.
- Most zones suck in NC so a lot of people have to venture out of nc to level. Without a LE some these places over camped and would have pking wars.
Just because people don't have an LE, doesn't mean suddenly every pvper on the server suddenly turns into a newbie PKer and camps lvling zones. PKing wars = PvP...
- Many players now have more then 1 account or have a anti and pro causing issues for people who want revenge and such on poor people who just want to level
I can't understand the point again - sorry.
- Tradeskillers are needed. Lot these need OP to help them become greater and better at there trades. Without a LE they can be pked a lot and causing the tradeskiller to rethink there current profession.
Removing the LE actually helps tradeskillers massively:
[list] Now more than ever, the loss of a 4th brainslot is a massive penalty in itself.
The gain of a 4th brainslot is a massive benefit in itself. LEd players don't get any OP bonus as far as I know. The chance of running into a PKer (let alone an enemy PKer) is really quite low considering the number of OPs available. I highly doubt a trader will rethink their profession because they get PKd...
- Theres so many bugs and flaws when leveling up it just sucks with out a le.
Examples?
- Tight leveling areas where you use maybe aoe would cause a lot of accidental pking.
One word: Team. If people refuse to join a team just run into their aoe and bam, they get red SL and are forced to leave the cave to idle in TH. Or alternatively - be careful.
If people are this worried about getting PKd while lvling or whatever, how the hell are they going to cope when someone kills them in pvp when they are ready? How are you going to cope when you get zerged and ganked at an op war or in general pvp (When you're actually going to drop something important and expensive compared to crappy unimportant lvling items) without standing a chance in hell of surviving? Because that is the exact same concept, being defenseless.
When I first started playing I did get worked up about getting PKd while lvling and I wanted to put my LE back in but it was impossible because I'd passed /30. After the first few times I decided to suck it up and grow a pair and I think it's made me a much more tolerant player because of it. Now I don't give a crap about my SL, I don't care what items I drop in my belt and I don't get frustrated when I'm killed. I suck it up and go back, if I die I get the hint that it just isn't going to happen for me. You will get used to this very quickly.
wow lol half ur points made no sense lol. I like part if everyone takes le does not mean there all the sudden going turn into n00b killers lmao....
thats classic...
I mean most people now kill on sight if they don't lose sl and also theres enough n00b killers who board looking for action as is..
Lets just say me and many more will cancel are accounts if that were to happen of no le's and guess what I just won this fight... kk will never remove le's infact I hear for a few days or something there going make it so anyone can put le back in :D
haha
wow lol half ur points made no sense lol. I like part if everyone takes le does not mean there all the sudden going turn into n00b killers lmao....
I was prepared to let the lauguage barrier slip but if you can't understand what I said then learn some real fucking English. Don't blame your own points being countered with your own plain ignorance.
I like part if everyone takes le does not mean there all the sudden going turn into n00b killers
It's a perfectly valid point, just because I see someone who isn't LEd, doesn't mean I'm going to gank them on sight. This will probably also apply to people who actually stick to the F6 window.
I mean most people now kill on sight if they don't lose sl and also theres enough n00b killers who board looking for action as is..
Stick to lvling caves and you'll be fine, carebear. Who's going to kill a /30 runner in a cave where they lose mass SL? Who says that even when you take your LE out, you should be safe from danger..? Stop being such a pussy.
Lets just say me and many more will cancel are accounts if that were to happen of no le's and guess what I just won this fight... kk will never remove le's infact I hear for a few days or something there going make it so anyone can put le back in :D
Well in that case I'd be more than happy to wave all you carebears off to WoW.
and guess what I just won this fight...
:rolleyes:
I have a question or 2.
How many of you who want the LE removed from the game have less than 10mill credits and access to less than every single rare and high dollar item in the game?
I'm betting 0.
How many understand that there is more than 1 way to play NC? AND that just because you don't play a certain way doesn't mean you have the right to demand the destruction of said play style?
I'm again- Betting 0.
How many who use the term "carebare" regularly, understand that the term is just as derogatory as a racial or sexual slur and requires the same limited mind set to use?
I don't have to bet on this one as you need the possibility of a second option on which to bet....
KK put LE's in the game for a reason. And it wasn't a bad one.
Soooo. Unless an issue effects your gameplay negatively beyond----
"DAMN!!!! There goes a level 30 I can't grief kill then ridicule..."
Shut up.
And PLEASE don't become politicians.
I have a question or 2.
How many of you who want the LE removed from the game have less than 10mill credits and access to less than every single rare and high dollar item in the game?
I'm betting 0.
How many understand that there is more than 1 way to play NC? AND that just because you don't play a certain way doesn't mean you have the right to demand the destruction of said play style?
I'm again- Betting 0.
How many who use the term "carebare" regularly, understand that the term is just as derogatory as a racial or sexual slur and requires the same limited mind set to use?
I don't have to bet on this one as you need the possibility of a second option on which to bet....
KK put LE's in the game for a reason. And it wasn't a bad one.
Soooo. Unless an issue effects your gameplay negatively beyond----
"DAMN!!!! There goes a level 30 I can't grief kill then ridicule..."
Shut up.
And PLEASE don't become politicians.
All these are indeed correct.
I have a question or 2.
How many of you who want the LE removed from the game have less than 10mill credits and access to less than every single rare and high dollar item in the game?
I'm betting 0.
How many understand that there is more than 1 way to play NC? AND that just because you don't play a certain way doesn't mean you have the right to demand the destruction of said play style?
I'm again- Betting 0.
How many who use the term "carebare" regularly, understand that the term is just as derogatory as a racial or sexual slur and requires the same limited mind set to use?
I don't have to bet on this one as you need the possibility of a second option on which to bet....
KK put LE's in the game for a reason. And it wasn't a bad one.
Soooo. Unless an issue effects your gameplay negatively beyond----
"DAMN!!!! There goes a level 30 I can't grief kill then ridicule..."
Shut up.
And PLEASE don't become politicians.
there you go in perfect English :)
awkward silence
26-03-07, 09:18
Leave the LE as it is!
I see no reason to change it. Other than an annoying fuck i know but...
I dont use the LE on any of my chars simply because even with tradeskillers the penalty is too high.
There is an incentive to take the LE off. Some people dont come here for PVP and we should just accept it imho.
Well... at least make it so LEd ppl cant get WoC.. I fucking hate LEd ppl running around in WoC PAs and playing smart with theire FUCKING WoC!
LEd ppl should NOT be able to get WoC!
The other things i can partly live with - eventhough i still hate when i see ppl above **/50 with theire LE in, but i can live with it - LEd ppl with WoC, i have serious problems living with.. :mad:
The Law Enforcer is fine as it is and we currently do not see any need to change that. Besides of the removal of the damage bug, of course.
There where quite a few LE penalties in NC1 that got removed in the early days of retails.
1. XP was reduced. (As DJ has already said)
2. You needed more skill points and levels to use an item. Say like 25STR if you was non LE'ed to and 27 STR if you was LE'ed. Since the LE takes a brain slot and the reduced XP this penalty was definatly very harsh.
3. You cash reward was reduced, like 20%. This 20% tax was probably called the Reza Tax.
To be honest, I think the LE is fine at the moment. If there is going to be a penalty, make it the cash one.
There where quite a few LE penalties in NC1 that got removed in the early days of retails.
1. XP was reduced. (As DJ has already said)
2. You needed more skill points and levels to use an item. Say like 25STR if you was non LE'ed to and 27 STR if you was LE'ed. Since the LE takes a brain slot and the reduced XP this penalty was definatly very harsh.
3. You cash reward was reduced, like 20%. This 20% tax was probably called the Reza Tax.
To be honest, I think the LE is fine at the moment. If there is going to be a penalty, make it the cash one.
Cash reduction wasn't on retail. Killing things pre- and post-penality removal yielded the same amount of NC per mob. I'm not positive the XP penality made it to retail, either. The 10% higher requirement penality was in effect.
awkward silence
26-03-07, 12:34
Im all for removing safezones and other stupid things of that sort. From every server. I strongly believe that the LE (+ apt with a good pw) should be the only safety options.
As well as if there was a PVP server, there shouldnt be an LE option (ie. the failure of neptune).
Terra however is different. There should be an LE option. AND REMEMBER! the LE has penalties, they are just not so rediculous as in the beginning.
Let LE people enjoy their game, just as they do. If you see an asshat at an OP or at the MB zoneline. You can just ignore him.
Some of you fellows whine here how bad the LE is and then go to TH to sit in safely...
Isn't there already a slight penalty? It takes up one imp slot? :p
And not to mention the secret XP reduction that took place a long time ago which they said was removed and later it got removed again because apparently it wasn't removed and tbh it doesn't feel like it has been removed :P.
I have a question or 2.
How many of you who want the LE removed from the game have less than 10mill credits and access to less than every single rare and high dollar item in the game?
I'm betting 0.
How many understand that there is more than 1 way to play NC? AND that just because you don't play a certain way doesn't mean you have the right to demand the destruction of said play style?
I'm again- Betting 0.
How many who use the term "carebare" regularly, understand that the term is just as derogatory as a racial or sexual slur and requires the same limited mind set to use?
I don't have to bet on this one as you need the possibility of a second option on which to bet....
KK put LE's in the game for a reason. And it wasn't a bad one.
Soooo. Unless an issue effects your gameplay negatively beyond----
"DAMN!!!! There goes a level 30 I can't grief kill then ridicule..."
Shut up.
And PLEASE don't become politicians.
I don't have anywhere near ten million. My main char on terra has 61,000 (last time I looked last night), and on Mars he has one million give or take a few pennies.
I would like to see some requirement change for LE chips in the same way as it was in NC1. The LE was meant to be there to allow people to level up and explore the game instead of being ganked immediately. After the players had levelled, or felt confident enough, then the LE usually was removed. Admittably, I removed the LE as soon as the char was created at 0/2, and would continue to do so if I created another char from scratch.
I agree that LEs ought to stay for the moment because they serve a useful purpose.
How many of you who want the LE removed from the game have less than 10mill credits and access to less than every single rare and high dollar item in the game?
I have around 1.02 mil on my monk. Nearly 15k on my PE and almost 300k on my spy. I'm in a pvp clan who don't have apartments full of rares and I don't have any WoC discs/spare MC5s/NC1 items etc.
How many understand that there is more than 1 way to play NC? AND that just because you don't play a certain way doesn't mean you have the right to demand the destruction of said play style?
Of course there's several ways to play NC, which is what I'm complaining about. Playing NC with the LE is completely different to playing without it.
How many who use the term "carebare" regularly, understand that the term is just as derogatory as a racial or sexual slur and requires the same limited mind set to use?
Little known fact, carebear actually means anti-pvp, which is a perfectly correct term to use for people who whore LE chips. And I can't get banned for calling people carebears so really, it's not that bad a word..
KK put LE's in the game for a reason. And it wasn't a bad one.
The reason was probably to keep the less hardcore players happy, while the people that wanted to get the most out of the game along with it's experiences and atmosphere, could be kept happy aswell.
Doc Holliday
26-03-07, 17:07
its not getting changed so maybe someone should close this thread. its been said a million times but my personal opinion is i would rather see 10 more people playing this game with an LE in than those 10 not here. these 10 contribute to the game experience (not pvp obviously but the rest of it) and are 10 more subs per month for the company to continue to develop the game. look at it in that way.
No im not a fanboi.
PS. on the subject of carebears my gf when she played asked me and asked me and asked me when she could take the le out. i kept having to explain that she can when she gets bigger :) she wanted to remove it at level 10.
Its personal choice as you can see so dont call people carebears. just live and let live.
well after reading all these posts I must agree with Dogface for one thing.
Hes an asshole. and you thought I was just flaming I was trying defend my self but looks like your here call everyone names and just prove everyone wrong ur not even defending now.
To be honest I thought le was cheap when I was younger all i had was pvp on the mind. But theres much more then just pvp...
The job of convincing players to move from the le (the citizens), to pvp (the soldiers) is a responsibility of the clans, it's their long held mindset that is limiting those that wish to pvp to do so. Why?
You've had the map locked down GR wise forever, to the point where it's not dependable enough to even bother with. You have the population jammed into the same old areas (ie: mb bunker, yawn) and have a hell of a job to just explore the world for the first time. It's time to rethink this strategy, it limits rp, and op fighting, for no good reason.
I've gone to quite a few op fights on an le, just to watch you guys. I get insulted, cursed at and generally accused of pissing in everyones corn flakes.
Wouldn't it be much more in pvp interest to allow, no encourage, new runners
to come out to the op and watch the ensuing battle? I would have thought you would want witnesses, the skilled will be recognized for their skill, even become legendary, because so many have seen it. This will make them, more then anything else, WANT to remove the le, to become a soldier in the battle, rather then a citizen standing by watching helplessly.
The LE is a rules of engagement enforcer. You don't kill defenseless citizens,you go after their military protectors.
Hell if I could take my unLed tradeskillers out to watch a battle like that, without being the first to go down because I'm defenceless, I'd sweeten the pot for the victor and bring a big pocketfull of freshly built rares to pick over.
The le xp malus, DJ, would only serve to slow down those headed for pvp.
Us roleplayers could care less, me at least.
I'll never become pvp here though, it's not my kind of pvp, that, for lack of a better word "furball" style,everyone toe to toe. I prefer my pvp to include concealed approach, suppression fire from cover, flanking maneuvers, that sort of thing.
Instead of trying to force them to remove the le by restricting their freedom, convince them to remove it by allowing them the freedom to actually see what's out there.
Honor before Accolades, if the clans adopted this motto, the le could be removed from the game sure, but then it will be the clans' responsibility to maintain the rules of engagement, and thus the honor.
Just a touch more civility in the pvp arena, that's all it would take...
well after reading all these posts I must agree with Dogface for one thing.
Hes an asshole.
Yup, knew that. I enjoy it too.
and you thought I was just flaming I was trying defend my self but looks like your here call everyone names and just prove everyone wrong ur not even defending now.
, and . <-- learn them. I'm not defending because I'm not prepared to sit on the forums for 5 hours constantly refreshing the page just to see what you replied with o_O I was in-game. Calling someone who whores the LE chip a carebear is as justified as calling a homosexual, a homosexual. It's not derogatory, it's not mean it's just a fact.
I've gone to quite a few op fights on an le, just to watch you guys. I get insulted, cursed at and generally accused of pissing in everyones corn flakes.
that is not without a reason tho, which is basically the only quarrel i got with the le. many ppl just use it to more or less exploit the system, like for example in op fights le'd chars are often just spies for the defending clan. there are dozens of tactics le'd chars can use to aid unled fighters and these need to be fixed.
i have no problem with ppl who just want to play the game without having to watch their backs constantly, but i find it most irritating if i see the le'd alt of a person i'd love to take revenge on hacking a warbot and i can't do shit to kill him. that's why i was always of the opinion that the le should be a player setting, i.e. either all your chars are le'd or none of your chars are le'd, so it wouldn't be possible to log your le'd alt to earn cash for your ganking runs or help a clanmate by trading other players while he camps a gr.
These two quotes sum up my stance.
You play the same game, dont you?
No penalties?
- No Clanning (thus no Clanboni for OPs, drastically reducing skillpoints for tradeskillers)
- Less slots for Implants (thus again less boni in skills)
- Less team support
- No PvP
....
You won't magically turn a non-PvPer into a PvPer by this mean, if that is what you want. You should rather concentrate on featuring some fair PvP action they want to join to change their mind instead of nerfing and pushing them away.
I reserve the right to be a lone player who interacts with who I want, when I want, with what faction I want. I reserve the right to ignore stupid gankers by simply standing there. I reserver the right to keep my vehicles intact by simply getting in them. It's what I pay for. Stop meddling with my fun just becasue your fun sucks.
I am willing to accept the penalties for having an LE in my tradeskiller so I can guarantee to my customers that I will deliver their freshly constructed/repaired items (especially rares) without any of them being ganked by bored lamers who thinks "fun" is killing a zero combat rank who obviously has no weapon or PA. Some of these idiots still attempt to kill LEd skillers using a variety of exploits. I look for those fools on my other non-LEd alts.
Why has this turned into a debate about whether or not the LE should be removed? DJ started the thread without that idea in mind and my first suggestion didn't really include removing it, did it?
Anyway.. I think (Well, what I really think is that the LE should be removed) players shouldn't be punished for keeping the LE in (like a -% XP reduction) but players should be rewarded for removing it (like a +% XP gain).
Quite clear, really.
Giving one group a bonus for doing something is exactly the same a penalizing a group for not doing it. This game doesn't need anymore reasons go get people to not play it.
People with LEs are gaining nor losing out on anything. Where's the penalty here?
People with LEs are gaining nor losing out on anything. Where's the penalty here?Believe it or not, it takes a long time to level if you're not working with a group that has found/cornered/monopolized the current high-XP gain mob in the game. For a casual player, reintroducing XP/req penalities would be a slap in the face.
LEs have enough indirect penalities as it is. Re-adding the initial retail penalities (documented, not actual) would be an insult to me. I'm a long-time player with multiple accounts. Why should I be penalized now when the very obvious attempts to give PvPers what they want have backfired repeatedly?
This thread and others like it are just veiled attempts to discuss a sledgehammer approach to closing certain loopholes in the engine/game mechanics, loopholes KK has already stated are acceptable at this time. If you have a problem with certain LE'ed players, report them to KK via e-mail.
Mighty Max
27-03-07, 07:57
People with LEs are gaining nor losing out on anything. Where's the penalty here?
Never ever tell, that spoiling one group for the sake of another will have no negative influences. I can not think on any example it wasn't that way.
And tbh, I don't want to speak about groups of ppl who declare themself as superiour (aka "we are the good, we need more ...") to others because of a single point in their opinion. You might figure this part out yourself.
Instead do what you can within the ruleset. There are plenty of possibilities to increase the non-LEed population and attract Players to fund new clans and bringing some OP fun. For the statistics: ganking, shouting at LE'd, zoneline whoring, GR camping do NOT wake my desire to PvP when i observe them on my adventures through the world of neocron.
.........
I reserve the right to be a lone player who interacts with who I want, when I want, with what faction I want. I reserve the right to ignore stupid gankers by simply standing there. I reserve the right to keep my vehicles intact by simply getting in them. It's what I pay for. Stop meddling with my fun just because your fun sucks.
Sorry, DJ, couldn't have said it better. (Sticks head up from my trench) :p
While I don't mean this as an attack on you, I have to also agree with Max and Obsidian; as an LE'd player, I feel I have enough minus's to contend with already.
That said, I kind of understand where you're coming from, since both camps can describe abuses from the other. One other thing I'd like to say, is that I've played on both Pluto and Saturn, without an LE; same game, two different experiences.
Like SC said, LE's are fine, but "the bug" really needs to get fixed asap no matter how hilarious it is. :lol:
It's now been fixed according to Patch 161 (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138996).
I have no problem with a Exp penalty for LE. However it won't really make me remove it unless the following is also changed.
1 if a person is in thier gogo they can not be harmed/healed/regenerate/use combat drugs/medkits... that way people can't be ganked at thier gogos but also cant use gogos to get out of dying. (also if somone is at city com, shopkeep, or consulting a gm)
2. people get 2 min of invulnerability when rezzed or teleport and maybe 10 seconds when syncing but also cant heal/fight/regen ect... (illiminating rezkills also it may reduce people who use sync barriers as fight tactics)
3 you cant harm someone 10 levels or more under you or 20 levels over you (illiminating newbie kills)
If these 3 things were enabled I am sure a lot more people would have thier LE out so they can take advantage of the extra brain slot, or join a clan. however pvpers probibly won't like it as much even if LEers get less exp.
I have no problem with a Exp penalty for LE. However it won't really make me remove it unless the following is also changed.
1 if a person is in thier gogo they can not be harmed/healed/regenerate/use combat drugs/medkits... that way people can't be ganked at thier gogos but also cant use gogos to get out of dying. (also if somone is at city com, shopkeep, or consulting a gm)
This could be exploided so much, so i doubt it would ever be possible
2. people get 2 min of invulnerability when rezzed or teleport and maybe 10 seconds when syncing but also cant heal/fight/regen ect... (illiminating rezkills also it may reduce people who use sync barriers as fight tactics)
LAME!! that would RUIN op fights! and in general this would also could be exploided
3 you cant harm someone 10 levels or more under you or 20 levels over you (illiminating newbie kills)
Again.. boring.. its not fun if you cant be ganked as a 0/2 - most ppl love that we have to look over our shoulders all the time!
If these 3 things were enabled I am sure a lot more people would have thier LE out so they can take advantage of the extra brain slot, or join a clan. however pvpers probibly won't like it as much even if LEers get less exp.
And alot of the current unLEd/non-carebear population would quit
Thats all i had to say...
I agree witth Bredahl, especially the 0/2 ganking.
When I was 0/2 I felt liberated when I was told to remove my LE chip, and someone explained to me what it did. I felt that i could participate fully in the game's atmosphere. Of course, I explored the wastelands and got ganked a few times. This was par for the course.
3 you cant harm someone 10 levels or more under you or 20 levels over you (illiminating newbie kills)
if this was enabled you would see groups of lvl 40ish ppl ganking capped chars who wouldn't even be able to defend themselves.
on a side note: your other ideas would just lead to having an insta le around every corner, so no wonder everyone would pop their le if that happened.
First of all I completely agree with Dribble Joy.
Second: I remember no safeslots, two sets of item reqs (higher for LE), XP penalty on LE, no "dungeon" and "apartment" zones, COPBOTS DID LOW DAMAGE AND DIDNT PARA. OH, and I shouldn't forget beta where you dropped your ENTIRE belt :)
Maybe one day Neocron will begin morphing back into the hardcore pvp design it once had instead of slowing becoming soft and cuddly for those who can't stomach getting pked.
So yeah, that is all. :o same shit different year
bladerunnerx
29-03-07, 11:39
First of all I completely agree with Dribble Joy.
Second: I remember no safeslots, two sets of item reqs (higher for LE), XP penalty on LE, no "dungeon" and "apartment" zones, COPBOTS DID LOW DAMAGE AND DIDNT PARA. OH, and I shouldn't forget beta where you dropped your ENTIRE belt :)
Maybe one day Neocron will begin morphing back into the hardcore pvp design it once had instead of slowing becoming soft and cuddly for those who can't stomach getting pked.
So yeah, that is all. :o same shit different year
I can stand it however at level 5 a level 40 player tried to attack me. I do not find it fun when a player way over my level attacks me and I can't run or fight or do anything but die. If they made it so I would not drop my belt then I would remove the LE.
Cancel your account and go play PacMan. ty :rolleyes:
What seems to have been ignored about Dribble Joy's suggestion so far is this part:
So in a sense it's not only about rewarding people for removing it, but about giving those who use it more time to do what they want.
In my opinion it is an aspect that is true. And as far as I am concerned: Go for it. I am still somewhat of a newbie and will leave my LE chips in until my toons are capped and have at least half-decent gear before I will join PvP. And if I will have more time to become familiar with the game mechanics while levelling, I am just fine with it.
Tradeskillers should be an exception from this rule though (for the record: None of my toons is a tradeskiller).
Bishop Yutani
29-03-07, 16:34
alright i'll stop lurking to call you guys out on this.
First off, you can't call LE users carebears and then suggest a slew of ways to make using an LE more carebear. If you think Neocron is getting MORE carebear, why would you change things to exascerbate it?
Second, there ARE negatives to using an LE, so why does every 5th post try to say there isnt? Are we not reading the whole thread and just flamebaiting?
Third, the game doesn't have any real penalty for ganking noobs, which is kinda dumb. In the interest of making it more real, you could remove the LE from the game, but you would have to take steps to keep a bunch of people from hanging out by the MB entrance capping everything that runs by. Loss of soullight isnt enough - the way i see it, with the help of a SLwhore, losing some SL is nothing more than a slower form of SI. You want to take my LE, then you better get KOS if you start acting like a asshole.
Fourth, you call yourself a hardcore PvP'er, but then cry about LE'ed runners in Op fights? Don't be such a carebear. Fight fire with fire.
And last, i have to admit that this is a bit of a flamebait, but I've seen the videos and a few opfights ingame, and personally, i'm negatively impressed. I dont have ANY desire to participate in them NOR do i want to don a microphone headset and talk about clan-related matters. If I want intense PvP, I dont turn on Neocron.
SO, if you want to screw with the LE, then people like me who just want to play casually, will definately never come back. And then you'll be in the same place you were today, except you won't have the LE'ed runners to blame for it.
NicoTron77
29-03-07, 18:22
I've seen people at mb without le leveling over the last days because of the le bug. They get killed all the time. One of them even refused to use armor and imps because of that.
Can you provide shelter for them?
If you can, I'd say activate the feature again that damages the le. Try to balance the damage so that it falls out after leveling to >50.
If you can't, you will lose all the new people, because it's not possible for them to level.
Why people keep killing runners that can't do any harm to them is another subject.
Richard Slade
30-03-07, 14:34
I always thought NC was way too carebear..
First of all, remove the LE protection in OP zones (if it hasn't been done already that is.)
Second...
A heck, skip the first idea and just blow the damn chip up at 30/30 and let's go hardcore again.
With that also remove the army of guards in cities and lets rock again!
"Why would this be a good idea in any way? It only caters PvP!"
NOPE! It actually caters PvM more.
How, well, if we add some objective to city raiding.
For example the ability to loot stuff from certain places *cough*NCPD HQ*cough* which can't be found anywhere else
(And also requiring a buckload of leet gear, like WoC weapons and stuff to get there)
This loot could involve
special statues (read: Heads and other trophies)
ammo with some OMPH (bit extra damage maybe, or some funny effect like turning the fire into another color, shooting bunnies instead of bullets or such)
Unique weapons (Modelwise first of all, preferably with some neat slots..
PA's with a big ass NC or DoY logo on them...
You get the idea, something people want and crave.
With that we do what would seem the most obvious in a game like NC..
We draw the fights into the cities instead of the nuked and radioactive wasteland... (Seriously, who wants to be out there more than needed?)
And with that leaving room for the PvM crowd to roam a bit more without fearing a Monkey and his strap-on to be waiting around every corner
(Well, tree then, wasteland doesn't involve many corners)
And yet we still maintain the use of OPs (For example needing a certain amount of them to build, aim and launch an EMP shockwave that disables previously mentioned guards..
So why the hell should we remove the LE?
Because this is Neocron!
If you want to tradeskill without getting blown to kingdom come in P1, well, stay in your friggin apartment then!
If you want to fight in the wastelands without risking anything, getting loot and rares while previously mentioned Monkey and his strap-on, well you're in the wrong friggin place,
what rights do the NCPD have in the middle of the empty wastelands anyways?
I'll tell ya, none.
And if they for some reason do, atleast have them come kill you instead of just making the opponent immune... o_O
That's MY opinions on LE's, carebears and what NC could use.
Edit: Oh, and for the newbieganking and MB part.
Just do what was so happily done in the middle of NC (where you can't bloody fire anyways)
ADD GUARDS
I always thought NC was way too carebear..LE's been in since Beta 2, if not earlier. It's always been "carebear".
First of all, remove the LE protection in OP zones (if it hasn't been done already that is.)
Second...
A heck, skip the first idea and just blow the damn chip up at 30/30 and let's go hardcore again.If you want a hardcore server, convince KK to put up Neptune II, this time with no LE.
I guarantee it'll go to zero population within two weeks of launch. You won't play on it, no one else will play on it, and you'll all whine on the forums and Terra's Trade-NC.
The vast majority want LE, for one reason or another.
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