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View Full Version : Syncing issue: I think I found the problem... KK PLEASE READ.


Whitestuff
23-03-07, 07:58
I mentioned a week ago that I have the perma sync problem. It consists of logging into the game and being able to see people, talk in chat, and even get killed by mobs, but my character is unable to move, has no cash, has no soullight, and has no items in any window or quickbar. Also, it permanently says "Synchronizing" in the middle of the screen, thus the name "perma-sync bug". I have to relog repeatedly (my personal high score is 31 relogs to get onto ONE character...) until the data gets sent properly. It also important to note that once I successfully log in, I have virtually no problems with staying connected. I have black synced once and FRE'd twice since playing again. It is only the initial data transmission that gets screwed, and virtually nothing else (until I FRE and have to go through the difficult process of relogging again.)

Now, I have no idea why NC doesn't resend the necessary data until the client can verify that it has in fact recieved it all. I mean, my items cash and soullight are missing, the client should recognize that these are missing and re-request the data. If some kind of checking feature like this was integrated, it may solve the problem.

But, I think I have found the source of MY problem, and subsequently, everyone else who is having trouble logging in.

I did a pathping in the CMD window and found this output:

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\Jim>pathping 62.140.29.50

Tracing route to 62.140.29.50 over a maximum of 30 hops

0 amd64.hsd1.ga.comcast.net. [192.168.1.110]
1 192.168.1.1
2 c-3-0-ubr02.r2conyers.ga.atlanta.comcast.net [73.63.192.1]
3 GE-1-3-ur01.R2conyers.ga.atlanta.comcast.net [68.86.110.57]
4 te-9-1-ur01.r1conyers.ga.atlanta.comcast.net [68.86.106.114]
5 te-9-1-ur01.d3stonemtn.ga.atlanta.comcast.net [68.86.106.118]
6 68.86.106.122
7 te-9-4-ar01.d1stonemtn.ga.atlanta.comcast.net [68.86.106.42]
8 12.124.64.21
9 tbr2-p013801.attga.ip.att.net [12.123.20.174]
10 12.122.96.69
11 192.205.34.62
12 ae-1-51.bbr1.Atlanta1.Level3.net [4.68.103.1]
13 ae-1-0.bbr2.Dusseldorf1.Level3.net [212.187.128.21]
14 as-0-0.mp1.Hamburg1.Level3.net [4.68.128.34]
15 ge-4-2.hsa1.Hamburg1.Level3.net [195.122.140.195]
16 ge-3-0.edge1.ham1.de.inetbone.net [212.162.48.132]
17 212.162.3.84
18 62.140.29.50

Computing statistics for 450 seconds...
Source to Here This Node/Link
Hop RTT Lost/Sent = Pct Lost/Sent = Pct Address
0 amd64.hsd1.ga.comcast.net. [192.16
8.1.110]
0/ 100 = 0% |
1 0ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 192.168.1.1
0/ 100 = 0% |
2 8ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% c-3-0-ubr02.r2conyers.ga.atlanta.c
omcast.net [73.63.192.1]
0/ 100 = 0% |
3 9ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% GE-1-3-ur01.R2conyers.ga.atlanta.c
omcast.net [68.86.110.57]
0/ 100 = 0% |
4 10ms 1/ 100 = 1% 1/ 100 = 1% te-9-1-ur01.r1conyers.ga.atlanta.c
omcast.net [68.86.106.114]
0/ 100 = 0% |
5 9ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% te-9-1-ur01.d3stonemtn.ga.atlanta.
comcast.net [68.86.106.118]
0/ 100 = 0% |
6 9ms 1/ 100 = 1% 1/ 100 = 1% 68.86.106.122
0/ 100 = 0% |
7 12ms 2/ 100 = 2% 2/ 100 = 2% te-9-4-ar01.d1stonemtn.ga.atlanta.
comcast.net [68.86.106.42]
0/ 100 = 0% |
8 10ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 12.124.64.21
0/ 100 = 0% |
9 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% tbr2-p013801.attga.ip.att.net [12.
123.20.174]
0/ 100 = 0% |
10 --- 100/ 100 =100% 100/ 100 =100% 12.122.96.69
0/ 100 = 0% |
11 20ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 192.205.34.62
0/ 100 = 0% |
12 12ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-51.bbr1.Atlanta1.Level3.net [
4.68.103.1]
0/ 100 = 0% |
13 113ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ae-1-0.bbr2.Dusseldorf1.Level3.net
[212.187.128.21]
0/ 100 = 0% |
14 121ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% as-0-0.mp1.Hamburg1.Level3.net [4.
68.128.34]
0/ 100 = 0% |
15 117ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ge-4-2.hsa1.Hamburg1.Level3.net [1
95.122.140.195]
0/ 100 = 0% |
16 119ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% ge-3-0.edge1.ham1.de.inetbone.net
[212.162.48.132]
0/ 100 = 0% |
17 119ms 0/ 100 = 0% 0/ 100 = 0% 212.162.3.84
1/ 100 = 1% |
18 120ms 1/ 100 = 1% 0/ 100 = 0% 62.140.29.50

Trace complete.

C:\Documents and Settings\Jim>

Notice the orange text. When connecting to an international IP (I checked several domestic IP's, including WoW and CoH Servers - - they do not use this routing path) I route through 2 routers that loose 100% of the ping data. I suspect that this is where my character's info is getting lost.

So, I need to find a way to get my data to Germany without going through those routers. Is there anyway to change where my information routes to?

Another solution would be for KK to do as I suggested above, and code in a data integrity checker that re-requests missing data.

Anyhow, I'm off to try and login the game for a few hours before work.... I'll check back later.
jini
23-03-07, 08:42
I had this problem with my isp as well once. What you ask basically is, a certain route path to avoid congestion of certain routers. At least my isp answered that they do not choose routing (or they dont want to) which seems to be done automatically? I dunno. Maybe there is a QoS factor which decides which route to take an this is done in auto. But I dont know how these things work. Some network engineer could help here
IceStorm
23-03-07, 09:17
Speakeasy DSL. They peer directly with Level 3.

By the way, pings are not a great network diagnostic tool for packet loss/throughput. It's possible the routers are blocking those particular packets.
pottburter
23-03-07, 10:28
Is there anyway to change where my information routes to?

Nope, there isn't.
You can't take any influence in the routing from your side.
kane
23-03-07, 11:09
Nope, there isn't.
You can't take any influence in the routing from your side.
boy would that not be nice but also boy that would destroy the internet lol
pottburter
23-03-07, 11:48
boy would that not be nice but also boy that would destroy the internet lol

I have a friend who once called his ISP and demanded HIS packets to be rerouted cause of bad download speed.
The funny part was when he claimed his packets his property, and therefore its up to him to deceide to where they will be routed.
It made me laugh so hard when he told me about his 1 hour discussion with his ISP :lol:

Geez, my laughmuscle still hurts when i come to think of it....... :D
rob444
23-03-07, 11:53
The syncronization bug has been discussed before (the thread can probably be found on page 4). They are not going to fix it because SnowCrash simply put it as:

"Regarding your suggestions about a new gfx engine and a new netcode I can just say that a complete rework of these two main core features would mean a complete rework of the whole game, which is simply not an option."

How adding a routine that retries synchronization is a total remake of the netcode I don't know.
SnowCrash
23-03-07, 12:07
I will check back with our data center provider if there is any possibility to improve the routing but usually you do not have any influence on the routing tables of your provider.

And I have to say it again; the Netcode is not just a game feature where you just modify a code line here and there and then everything is fine. It is a very complicated part of the game and a single modification at one point could have unforeseeable consequences for the whole system.
Toxen
23-03-07, 12:44
I will check back with our data center provider if there is any possibility to improve the routing but usually you do not have any influence on the routing tables of your provider.

And I have to say it again; the Netcode is not just a game feature where you just modify a code line here and there and then everything is fine. It is a very complicated part of the game and a single modification at one point could have unforeseeable consequences for the whole system.

Think people are probably aware of how inwoven netcode is snow, but I think most people will also agree that neocron is of the age where the entire engine needs replacing rather than a series of graphical updates.
jini
23-03-07, 13:01
I have a friend who once called his ISP and demanded HIS packets to be rerouted cause of bad download speed.
The funny part was when he claimed his packets his property, and therefore its up to him to deceide to where they will be routed.
It made me laugh so hard when he told me about his 1 hour discussion with his ISP :lol:

Geez, my laughmuscle still hurts when i come to think of it....... :D
I always love to play these kind of games with employees that work for megacorps. I particularly enjoy it when you bring him to a point he can no longer answer, and he: "let me call my supervisor" :p
Whitestuff
24-03-07, 01:40
And I have to say it again; the Netcode is not just a game feature where you just modify a code line here and there and then everything is fine. It is a very complicated part of the game and a single modification at one point could have unforeseeable consequences for the whole system.

However, could a data check be coded in as a part of the "synchronizing" process? Because it seems to me that the data only gets sent once and there is no check that actually requests the missing data again. The reason this problem exists is because the client knows that all info isn't there (and therefore will not let you stop synchronizing), it just doesn't go back to get the missing parts.

And if a path ping isn't a good diagnostic for testing a routing path, what is? I thought that was the whole purpose of "pings": to test connections. Thus the existence of all the ping tests.... However, I'm not an expert at this subject, so if there is a better test, please provide a link so I can test it too.

The fact remains that this problem does exsist and we should work together as a community and the Dev Team to try and figure a solution that doesn't involve an entire rework of the game, but also works. I mean, the balancing project seems to have worked fairly well (I am very pleased with the changes), why not try to fix these things in the same manner?
IceStorm
24-03-07, 10:44
And if a path ping isn't a good diagnostic for testing a routing path, what is?Short of talking with the particular ISP/GSP(s) involved, nothing. ICMP can point you in the direction of a potential issue, but if an ISP wants to drop ICMP, or specific ICMP types, there's nothing that says they can't. They can also prioritize other traffic over ICMP, such that ICMP gets dropped first during high congestion periods.
I thought that was the whole purpose of "pings": to test connections. Thus the existence of all the ping tests....It is a diagnostic tool, but just because pings drop doesn't mean there's a problem. An example would be NetApp Filers. They are designed to drop one out of ever x pings, so doing a Cisco-style ping test from a NetApp's local router will always show drops, but a check of its switch port counters and the counters of the other switch/router ports along its local segment path may show no drops.
However, I'm not an expert at this subject, so if there is a better test, please provide a link so I can test it too.For end users, there isn't. I do network operations/implementation for a living. If you have access to the network hardware, there are quite a few counters on the hardware itself that can help one narrow down a problem. There are also several trending apps out there that can provide historical data for periods of time. None of this is available to an end user.
The fact remains that this problem does exsist and we should work together as a community and the Dev Team to try and figure a solution that doesn't involve an entire rework of the game, but also works.Get yourself an ISP that directly connects to Level 3's backbone. That appears to be the only solution.
Dribble Joy
24-03-07, 14:31
Get yourself an ISP that directly connects to Level 3's backbone. That appears to be the only solution.
Indeed. It'll require a bit of digging but it's all for your love of NC.


but I think most people will also agree that neocron is of the age where the entire engine needs replacing rather than a series of graphical updates.
Think of the lag you get on other MMOs....
Kierz
25-03-07, 14:59
Get yourself an ISP that directly connects to Level 3's backbone. That appears to be the only solution.Indeed. It'll require a bit of digging but it's all for your love of NC.it shouldn't require that much digging if he can actually read...
Speakeasy DSL. They peer directly with Level 3.:p
suler
25-03-07, 15:13
There's no way I'd change my ISP just for NC though.
rob444
25-03-07, 17:16
You shouldn't need to switch ISP just to play a game synchronization-free either.
naimex
25-03-07, 18:35
when i have "perma synchs" i just alt tab to windows, and then alt tab back to the game, then it goes out of synch and into the area i was trying to enter.
rob444
25-03-07, 20:15
Long time no see Naimex :P
naimex
25-03-07, 23:29
Long time no see Naimex :P

well, you know me...

I touch a dead bunny here, a dead bunny there and before you know it, I'm back touching the first dead bunny because I missed it.

There are so many dead bunnies to touch.
IceStorm
26-03-07, 02:46
There's no way I'd change my ISP just for NC though.Then do it because Speakeasy doesn't suck? You get what you pay for. Speakeasy doesn't cap your connection, doesn't limit what you can run (other than prohibiting IRC servers), and doesn't turn you off automatically when they get a note from the MPAA.

I wouldn't pay $125 a month for my 3.0/768 line if it wasn't worth it.
suler
26-03-07, 04:49
I wouldn't pay $125 a month for my 3.0/768 line if it wasn't worth it.

I wouldn't ever pay 125 for a 3.0/768 line.
suler
26-03-07, 09:08
I figured out a problem I was having with it perma synching. I had it set to use local port, so I assumed that was the only port it needed forwarded. I checked though and it uses both the local port and 1 port above it, forwarding both of these has worked for me.

I was sure it wasn't the router because I got it working before but uh I guess I was wrong.
Dribble Joy
27-03-07, 00:16
Someone on the phoenix vent ran a trace and there's some serious packet loss at the end of the route to the servers. Dunno if it's KK or a local problem in Germany.
Whitestuff
27-03-07, 02:30
Then do it because Speakeasy doesn't suck? You get what you pay for. Speakeasy doesn't cap your connection, doesn't limit what you can run (other than prohibiting IRC servers), and doesn't turn you off automatically when they get a note from the MPAA.

I wouldn't pay $125 a month for my 3.0/768 line if it wasn't worth it.

I have DSL at my other location that plugs straight into the Level3 backbone, but that doesn't solve my problem at this location. Also, I would never change an ISP just to play a game that should work over any connection anyways.
SnowCrash
29-03-07, 17:21
I've had a long call with our data center provider and asked them to check for a possible optimisation of the routes. Unfortunately this is outside the influence of Level 3. I have also showed them the trace route results and they told me that this might be an ISP that uses "cheap" routes which causes this loss of connection quality.

I am sorry for not being able to offer your a proper solution regarding these issues.