View Full Version : 2.2 skill manager
Not yet AFAIK. I've created the backend and textual frontend for an online (PHP) skill (and item) manager which would eventually be similair to how the old nc.syn NeoSkiller profile viewer used to look (pretty much copying how it looks in-game), but I'd need a bit of guidance on the formulae to make it an actual Skill Manager, and even then it'll probably still be somewhat useless, since more formulae changes are a possibility. Did they post them in the balancing section by any chance? But even if they did, they probably aren't up to date anymore, can't be bothered to look myself right now, had about 4 hours sleep in the last 3 days so I'll be off to bed in a minute.
I could eventually rewrite the PHP source in C++ to compile a more tidy Linux binary with a GTK+ GUI, which might also be portable to Windows since a GTK+ library exists for that purpose, though I'm not sure how great that would be. As the previous sentence suggests, I'm quite a newbie to Windows Forms. I'm tempted to buy the odd book on the subject, though most seem to focus on Visual Basic or C# in particular. :o Anyhow, at least the backend wouldn't really require much (or any) modification if I ever released the source to someone who could port it nicely to Windows.
Ah, ok thanks.
I was going to test out setups but this is what i was thinking:
Basically, from purely reading, im going for damage/resists over speed.
INT: everyting in WEP
STR: Split between HC and TRANS..Im not sure how much trans I need tho, i would like to carry at least 3 weps with ammo types in my Inv without slowing down, so im not sure, I heard you need a ton of HC to get good damage now tho.
CON: HLT and then I guess 50 base in all resists?
DEX: Everything in TC?
PSI: 0
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For Imps I still have my old setup:
MC5 Ballistic
Marine
PPR
MOVE ON
Currently have a melee eye (whats the best HC eye?)
Filter 2
novice glove
unsure of backbone (whats the best HC backbone?)
Bones I have 3 gamma and 2 experimental, should I go all 5 gamma for xray?
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Armor would be Camo PA, then a mix of duranium/Inq.
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Thoughts?
Dribble Joy
22-03-07, 04:27
Armour setup seems reasonable, though I suggest you go with full gamma and go for a decent amount of xray resist base.
Not sure if speccing ath on a tank is viable or not, but it probably isn't. 1500 hp and 50 base in each resist is a start, then just add any points left across the resist types, varying it depending on the armour values you have.
As for Str, your armour won't make up for what you need in piercing and force resist. Try to get by with as little TRA as possible. Clearly you'll need to find a balance between HC and the resists, don't really know where it should be, and in the end, it's up to you.
As for imps, not too hot on tanks, and afaik, the options aren't huge, what you have probably is alright without knowing more.
Possibly might want to think about a strengthen heart rather than a filter, and harden backbones is still probably the one to go for.
In dex, probably about 130 AGL and the rest in TC.
i wrote one ages ago for myself that works pretty well.. i started fixing it for 2.2 but i got to nanites and armor and realized i dont have a clue how a lot of things work yet; so its hard to complete it ;)
cool, thanks for the tips
Yeah eprodigy been doing good job he is good at this type of thing. But I guess when comes down core of how things work its little hard understand at this point. Hopefully in a few weeks when he gets a better grasp of things he will be able to release it :)
Dribble Joy
22-03-07, 06:23
One problem (and point of confusion in another thread) is that it currently appears resists (and possibly armours too) provide different dmg reduction values depending on the class (though possibly it's not class per say, but possibly con level, we don't know yet). This will make creating a skill manager a lot more intensive than before, and will require a lot more data from testing untill any program is reliable.
Not yet AFAIK. I've created the backend and textual frontend for an online (PHP) skill (and item) manager which would eventually be similair to how the old nc.syn NeoSkiller profile viewer used to look (pretty much copying how it looks in-game), but I'd need a bit of guidance on the formulae to make it an actual Skill Manager, and even then it'll probably still be somewhat useless, since more formulae changes are a possibility. Did they post them in the balancing section by any chance? But even if they did, they probably aren't up to date anymore, can't be bothered to look myself right now, had about 4 hours sleep in the last 3 days so I'll be off to bed in a minute.
I could eventually rewrite the PHP source in C++ to compile a more tidy Linux binary with a GTK+ GUI, which might also be portable to Windows since a GTK+ library exists for that purpose, though I'm not sure how great that would be. As the previous sentence suggests, I'm quite a newbie to Windows Forms. I'm tempted to buy the odd book on the subject, though most seem to focus on Visual Basic or C# in particular. :o Anyhow, at least the backend wouldn't really require much (or any) modification if I ever released the source to someone who could port it nicely to Windows.I'd rather have a simple skillmanager where i can check out implants, armor and skillpoints just to make it easier to try out setups.
I dont really need formulas in that, simply seeing the numbers would help a lot comparing setups or just finding armor holes and all that.
I have tried to look for these holes as a spy for soo much :p
Can't say I found anything. They did a lot of work, they have thought of everything..
Take a look here http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138821&page=1&pp=15
there is also a link in the german forums also very nice http://neocron2.onlinewelten.com/include.php?file=htmle/items/implantate.html
I dont think there will ever be neoskiller bugfree with all those decimal bonus giving implants...
I dont think there will ever be neoskiller bugfree with all those decimal bonus giving implants...
I still hope though.. all this math makes my head hurt :(
Actually its not at all hard. You begin by specifying which are the weapons you are going to need. These weapons and their requirements pretty much specify your setup. If say, you want to be an xbow spy, you dont need DEX implants, therefore you will use resist one for defense and strength ones for inqui. It is easy, and bugfree :)
I'd rather have a simple skillmanager where i can check out implants, armor and skillpoints just to make it easier to try out setups.That's why I added "and item" in brackets, which is what you've described. It's similair to how NeoSkiller was. Though my own database is lacking in a couple of areas for 2.2 because of things such as item requirements, but I'm working on a tool that collects the requirements for items automatically. Definitely not adding them by hand myself when it's likely some are going to change. :rolleyes:
I dont really need formulas in that, simply seeing the numbers would help a lot comparing setups or just finding armor holes and all that.You wouldn't have a true skill manager (in the sense of what we've begun to expect from skill managers) without the formulae. Without the formulae you won't be able to determine the affects of what having different levels, skill assignments and using different implants would have on your character.
@jini: That's a sexy but not very practical idea to add to a skill manager. :p
Lupus was gonna work with AlphaGremlin on a 2.2 SkillManager, but as far as I know, neither are around anymore.
Its tough to figure out any good setups without a skill manager tbh.
I remember actually spending hours at a time with the nc1 skill manager tweaking my tank's setup, it was just a great tool. NC2.2 seems really confusing tho compared to the old system so a skill manager would definitely be harder to code now.
Its tough to figure out any good setups without a skill manager tbh.
I remember actually spending hours at a time with the nc1 skill manager tweaking my tank's setup, it was just a great tool. NC2.2 seems really confusing tho compared to the old system so a skill manager would definitely be harder to code now.
Formulas may be different from what they were before, but a skill manager is easier to make now.
It's still just points you have available to put into various skills.
Now you can actually tweak your armor "armor" for best protection all over, mix this and that, with that, and the pa, to be fully resistant on torso, legs, and head.
The only things that wont be easy is if formulaes are changed, is calculating overall resists, and how skills will influence the % of weapons and items.
I think I have some of the uncompiled files from an earlier skill manager somewhere, where the "calculated formulas" are in, but if the formula is changed, then it won't really do you much good.
as for the Dirus (Lupus asked to be renamed out of kindness to someone he knew) and AlphaGremlin thing.
I spoke to Gremlin a week or so ago, and it didnt seem like he had any plans to make a new skillmanager, and Dirus would have been able to perform the testings pretty easily, because he had been given some tools, that even very few GMs have access to.
It was basically tools that helped him to fast and without too much "hard" work, be able to find balances between weapons, damage types and resists.
Ofcourse the easiest thing would be, if reaKKtor decided to release the actual formulaes, so you didn't have to spend a lot of time figuring them out.
But one of the main reasons that I suspect lie behind their choice not to do so, is that if the real formulas were released, then there would be no more diversity, it would all be clones, and everyone would look the same, and god knows what, and then you could just aswell play counter strike or some other level and statless game, which would be bad for their business, so from a point of view like that, they are actually doing our fun a favour, by not releasing such information.
if the real formulas were released, then there would be no more diversity, it would all be clones, and everyone would look the same, and god knows what, and then you could just aswell play counter strike or some other level and statless gameWhere every little point matters, like in our beloved Neocron, it's what all our setups eventually turn into. Clones of one another. As for everyone looking the same, everyone already does look the same, simply because PA is important for your setup as going without PA just doesn't give you much reward. 2.2 hasn't really changed that. There's also not many different styles of clothing to wear which means going without PA means you generally look the same as one another too.
The only thing that will happen by releasing information such as this is it speeds up the process and makes things easier for everyone who plays.
Where every little point matters, like in our beloved Neocron, it's what all our setups eventually turn into. Clones of one another. As for everyone looking the same, everyone already does look the same, simply because PA is important for your setup as going without PA just doesn't give you much reward. 2.2 hasn't really changed that. There's also not many different styles of clothing to wear which means going without PA means you generally look the same as one another too.
The only thing that will happen by releasing information such as this is it speeds up the process and makes things easier for everyone who plays.
first part, i cant really argue with that, because its the cold hard fact.
second part.
speeding up the process, isnt neccessarily good, and making things easier, well... if it gets too easy, it gets boring.
Don't know what else to say to it really.
i still think we should be able to color/customize our PA. :D
By easier I was meaning more along the lines of tediousness rather than the level of difficulty. As you should know, apart from PvE being unbalanced at the moment, nothing in Neocron is hard, it's just repetitive, like any other MMORPG.
Being given the formulae won't let you create a recipe to become invincible, it simply means you have the ability to stop people asking the same old questions, and to think about creating a new character from scratch. All the reasons that Skill Managers exist for. "What skills should I put on Con?", "How much Agility should I have?"
Unless you have armour that ends up giving you the same resists as one another, there's always going to be 'optimal' setups for your class or profession, of which people have already begun to figure out. Speeding up and simplifying the process for all won't hurt anyone or destroy gameplay. In fact it could actually help things a little. Instead of a newbie being clueless it would be a great help to them - help that often isn't available to them most of the time, simply because of the times they play or that noone can be bothered to respond.
It would also help things be more 'balanced' too as the people who don't have hours of fraffing around to spare in order to work out the best setups will be able to catch up with those that do. It's the basic end-user things that should be thought about, but it seems the general attitude from most these days is quite the opposite of that.
Eternal Pink
26-03-07, 00:06
Err we won't all end up the same since we don't all want the same thing, some of us like more resists, some of us like more HP, some of us like to be faster, some of us like to have a higher damage output and so on.
Personnally if a 2.2 skill manager comes out i'll d/l it straight away just so i can play with my setup without loosing XP.
Yep, that's the sole purpose of a skill manager for me. Not to find the absolute bestest setup available (i doubt there is such a thing in 2.2), but to try out all different kinds of setups to see which one suits me best, without all the lom/xp loss headache.
Exactly.
I don't play an optimal PvP setup, I like having some Vehicle on my Pistol PE just because driving a hovertech around the wastelands is great fun.
i think the main reason a skill manager is used is to test out differ setups without having to LoM and grind XP, or just doing it with pen/paper.
having the skill managers actually calculate con setups and whatnot is extra bonus. :D
I'd like a skill manager because I want to look at other setups without actually playing them. I lom my PE about once a month or so and I just like to speed the process up a bit faster without having to work out every point over and over each time.
There maybe is a solution at least partial, by using excel and lists of implants given by icestorm. If you define them as database, then you can sort them quick with whatever it interests you, and appy quick sums to find out what you need. It can work easily, and not even excel isnt necessary, as there are excels freely available by Google or writely. I will try and do something...
AlphaGremlin
26-03-07, 06:59
Lupus was gonna work with AlphaGremlin on a 2.2 SkillManager, but as far as I know, neither are around anymore.
That's news to me! :p I am still around the forums, I just don't play the game any more, nor do I have the time to invest in updating NeoSkiller.
You do realise you can grab the source code for it though, and upgrade it yourselves. You'll need to change a few constants, and change the variables from Integer to Single or Double... most of the work would be in updating the item database.
AlphaGremlin
Dargeshaad
26-03-07, 07:51
You do realise you can grab the source code for it though, and upgrade it yourselves. You'll need to change a few constants, and change the variables from Integer to Single or Double... most of the work would be in updating the item database.
AlphaGremlin
Where can I download the source code?
That's news to me! :p I am still around the forums, I just don't play the game any more, nor do I have the time to invest in updating NeoSkiller.
You do realise you can grab the source code for it though, and upgrade it yourselves. You'll need to change a few constants, and change the variables from Integer to Single or Double... most of the work would be in updating the item database.
AlphaGremlin
Hey darling ;)
I still have your source code i think.
But it's on the other computer with a fried cpu cooler... (yet another :rolleyes: ), so unless it's shut down due to overheating again, it should be copying the relevant files needed from that computer to my main computer at this moment.
I'm a little stressed for time aswell, but since people really want one, I'll attempt to find the time to look up all the implant bonuses to write them in again.
I'm not going to bother to try and calculate a formula, but the rest should be "fairly" easy to do.
AlphaGremlin
26-03-07, 08:32
There should be a link to the source near the end of the NeoSkiller thread linked in my signature. I know several people have mirrors of it as well.
Edit: Source Code is here (http://home.iprimus.com.au/chandaffs/Source/NeoSkiller_src_1.0.0.52.rar)
AlphaGremlin
there you are. Using lists in excel, you can sort the database using anything you like. For example, say you search for dex implants. you sort descending by dex. Woks nice.
Dargeshaad
26-03-07, 08:53
There should be a link to the source near the end of the NeoSkiller thread linked in my signature. I know several people have mirrors of it as well.
Edit: Source Code is here (http://home.iprimus.com.au/chandaffs/Source/NeoSkiller_src_1.0.0.52.rar)
AlphaGremlin
Cheers, I'll have a look when I come home from uni
there you are. Using lists in excel, you can sort the database using anything you like. For example, say you search for dex implants. you sort descending by dex. Woks nice.
Thank you.
though I hate excel, it will be faster for me to just be able to read / copy-paste from your list into a skiller list.
Dribble Joy
26-03-07, 11:50
That list has one error (I think), it shows the Close combat cpu as giving construction.
That list has one error (I think), it shows the Close combat cpu as giving construction.
haha, cute.
Anyways, I have slowly started writing a php script for it, but I can't do much of it here at work (because my "boss" keeps looking over my shoulder, but when she just walks in and out of room, she can't see if I'm coding on the project for her, or on this :p)
However, since I'm not a c++ kind of person, and I did think about making it in javascript for offlinedness, I have decided to do it in php, hook it up to a database for easy global editing and then I think I will tie it together with a login thing, so you can save and load chars, or show off your setups to others, and have all your different char setups on the same "skillmanager-account", and then I think I will just add an option so people can turn off public viewing, if they want their setup to be a secret.
Does anyone have any objections to that?
The only annoying thing I can see in that, is that it won't work offline.
I've already done something like that, minus the ability for multiple profiles (message me on Xfire or something for a preview), as I'm only using a flat file for simplicity while bits are being worked on. :rolleyes: At the moment I'm working on implementing a few tricky ideas, such as generating images like inventory icons dynamically rather than just displaying a manually cropped image in its place, so hopefully the end result will be similair to how it all looks in-game, short names and all.
I've already done something like that, minus the ability for multiple profiles (message me on Xfire or something for a preview), as I'm only using a flat file for simplicity while bits are being worked on. :rolleyes: At the moment I'm working on implementing a few tricky ideas, such as generating images like inventory icons dynamically rather than just displaying a manually cropped image in its place, so hopefully the end result will be similair to how it all looks in-game, short names and all.
sounds like quite a project.
Dribble Joy
26-03-07, 12:51
haha, cute.
What? O_o
Anyway, I'm learning C++ as part of my course, I might give this thing a go, though there are probably better people for the job.
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