View Full Version : So this is 2.2..
My rant on 2.2. I don't want this to be moved to balancing forums, as this is not directly about balancing. I'm not trolling either.
First of all, I'd like to ask (to the community and someone at kk) why did KK go through this much time and effort to bring us 2.2, when 2.2 wasn't really needed that badly in the first place? If you hadn't give 2.2 so much attention and just added changes that the community wanted (which STILL are not implemented, I'm not even going to cover all those though) in a few patches and added paypal (best move ever though, I'll give you that) then NC would have been fine for a long time. Sure there was underlying issues with coding and what not, but the way it's been done wasn't the way it should have been solved.
Let's take a look at what it's actually giving us here. It's given us a mass load of bugs which we didn't have before (without fixing the old ones), it's given plenty of weird and quite frankly useless changes that were better off not being 'fixed', it's also broken several classes/professions (going from making some useless (read: HC/MC PE) to completely throwing off the balance between others), pretty much broken vehicles and ruined (for a lot of people) pve (xp gain and also mob offence/defence).
Now let's see what 2.2's given us that's good. You made some aspects to the PPU class more fun (while sacrifising some other aspects), you made tanks great again, added some new vehicles (which don't work so great) and some new content (although which is mostly WoC only.. bleh).
A lot of what 2.2 in my opinion (and others) has come down to is just time sinks. Everything
In 2.1 I didn't mind going out and farming techs for hours (I didn't do it often but that isn't because I didn't enjoy it), I liked how people could go make a new setup in a few hours (not just myself) and it would barely take any time to tweak it the way you liked it, I loved the fact that everyone and myself were so comfortable with the game and the way it worked (I read the forums a lot, so I know pretty much all of the changes and I still help people in-game when they don't understand something, so don't pull that one) that there was very little you actually needed to give a shit about and there were very few items that would matter if you dropped them in a night of pvp.
Now? Nearly every item and it's owners dog are in the rare pool and those that aren't are either near useless for pvp (non-rares) or they have a WoC requirement (another time sink to be on top of pvp, especially now where WoC has never been so big and now when it's the hardest it's ever been to get).
This is all pretty ironic actually. When 2.2 first hit the TS I could find it playable while 90% of other people though it wasn't worth shit on a stick. The thing is now aparently most people like 2.2 (HOW!?) and me and the only people I don't want quitting don't like it. I guess back then the only reason I could stand it was because I never saw it as Neocron, it was just a server to mess around on.
Fact: 2.2 will simply not last once the free trial is up. Just wanted to say this so I could play the 'I told you so' card later.
Quite a marathon on this one but I just can't get my head around what KK are thinking. Is it a blind desperate attempt to save NC or is it just accepting it's going to die no matter what you do? I appreciate the effort that has been put in but you did a classic KK and twisted the communities arm into the changes you wanted without letting them in on it. Effort that could have been better used to be honest.
Well, that's me done on the 2.2 topic for a while. Post what you like/dislike about it, but note: I really don't care for nobbers posting petty insults because I don't like 2.2.
Logan_storm_03
16-03-07, 00:12
Can I have your stuff?
I like almost every aspect about 2.2 except the bugged aggies and maybe the implant condition. Maybe could increase the loot worth by 5-10x. But it's all good in the hood.
awkward silence
16-03-07, 00:36
I agree with you alot there. I also do not agree with alot here.
-PVE is ruined. They have not destrouyed it in a sence but its unenjoyable in every new way. Vechs are weaker (most are useless to the point that its better to get out of the vech and shoot), and mostly bugged.
-HC/MC PE's are not worth anything.
-I do not like the fact that the swat etc. are rarepool. It is big enough...was.
-the PE nanites arent wirth shit with rediculous focusing reqs... no PVP PE will use them.
-cities cant still be raided
but...
-I like the more sensible reqs (scout) and rc vechs.
-imps are being redone
-classes are better balanced between each other
Overall nc 2.1 was pretty bad but playable. 2.2's PVP is decent but PVE unplayable.
At this moment... I wouldnt re-subscribe. I dont mean this as a blackmail but i just am honestly wholeheartedly not satisfied. KK did some REALLY good moved but a lot was either done really wrong or just not adressed/fixed/done yet.
Im giving KK until... well i cant play and would need to make a decidion if to pay for this or not. And if i see a few good patches later i will try again.
At this moment the good aint adding up to the "bad"
Logan_storm_03
16-03-07, 00:38
Can I have your stuff also?
I'll be raking in the rares at this rate...
I also agree with some things and disagree with some others.
I REALLY like the whole "Dress for the ocasion" deal with armors, nanites and whatnot, also the classes are a lot more balanced.
However i feel that the PvE is lacking in some ways but i do not feel that it is the Mobs that are the problem but more of the player output versus the mobs, for example i had some friends who wished to try NeoCron so i set them up with some old Trial accounts (Which also got 30 days) and rolled a new player meself.
However the whole noob exsperience is..well...lacking, my new Melee tank deals the same damage with his Jones Weapon as with his TL 21 Junk knife with Arti dmg, so i rolled a droner as well, the firering range of the low level drones (TL3 to 10 so far) is LESS than 30 centimeters, also the reticule closes ever so slowly and you need a lock on the target for 10 seconds before it even begins to close.
What makes matters worse is that the TL 3 Drones deals EXACTLY the same damage as the level 10 Drones (4 per shot) giving you the feeling that you are not progressing at all.
So I'd say try leaving the Mobs as they are and take a good look at the player dmg output and see what can be tweaked there, because i feel that something is seriously wrong.
- Napalm
awkward silence
16-03-07, 00:50
Nah.
Ill just keep me stuff and check once in a while if it's worth playing.
Besides... if you rack rares like this no wonder ya think its easy. :lol:
ps. Agree with Napalm... The armour system is a gem. The only grunt i have to that is that i cant wear my undies and PA. I mean they should fit under the armour and PA!
The thing is my 28.4cm aint doing so well under kevlar. Then again i doubt the lead coated does any good either ;)
Gulinborsti
16-03-07, 01:56
I actually like 2.2.
PvP is better balanced and that was the prime effort behind all this balancing.
But there are a lot of flaws in gameplay and fun/diversity:
1) PvE is totally fucked up. Point. Mobs are too strong, they kill you too fast regardless if you use a armor setup specially vs. the mob you fight. Hitpoints are sligthly too high. Money doesnt make up for this changes,
2) PEs are screwed in many ways:
Nanite protection is useless
H-C PEs are no longer fun
Can't gun vehicles
No valid ENR armor without gimping a DEX setup
... PEs are no longer Jack-of-all-trades, they suck in almost every direction.
3) Tradeskillers suffer from implantable gloves and strange mali on imps
Still the overall experience is positive because the main concern of introducing 2.2 was PvP balance. And thats the only thing that KK didn't screw with 2.2. Every other changes need a lot of tweaking:
Implants
PvE
and many more
Eagerly awaiting the next patch...
I think it's been said many a time but probably worth repeating. The major reason 2.2 has been brought out is so that changes to one aspect of the game can be made without it impacting on 26 other completely unrelated areas. Ok so it may not be perfect straight out of the blocks but the massive, massive step forward is that now if one area - say level /2 to level /30 mobs are too hard and are hampering new runners levelling, then these mobs can be adjusted so they're right without it screwing up mc5 drop rate, clan apps and the effect of agility on runspeed. Ok so they're made up examples but you surely get the point?
Before, changing one thing would have a knock on effect on 5/6 totally unrelated areas. Huge portions of the code has been rewritten so aspects of the game can now be balanced totally independantly of each other. At the same time, a huge effort has been made to balance the classes against one another and to make all classes viable for the first time in about 3 years. Is everything perfect straight off the bat? No, of course not - to expect otherwise would be expecting a miracle, so many things have been completely reworked that to expect everything to be perfect would be ridiculous. Do we now have a framework within which individual problems can be tweaked to bring them in line without the whole game being screwed up? Let's hope so with big spangly balls on. And to the people whining about teething problems which can now hopefully be fixed independantly - suck on the aforementioned balls. Make your own damn mmo then come whining. So there's a few new bugs; that's a surprise? A lot of the code has been rewritten. 2.2 wasn't needed that badly? I'm sorry whenI've stopped laughing I might take you seriously. I hadn't noticed the 2.1 playerbase increasing on a daily basis because the game was perfect as it was. Oh and noone was complaining about Monk'o'cron. But I'm sure if player shops were the only thing to have been introduced then the pops would have increased 10 fold overnight.
Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of small problems with 2.2. Difference is now they're independant of each other and don't require the whole game to be rewritten to be fixed. Maybe we can try playing the game for more than 4 days before we write it off as a total disaster that they shouldn't have bothered making...
Apocalypsox
16-03-07, 02:46
2.2 is great fun, makes it feel more like NC1 with all the tanks around. But mobs need less HP, some vehicle damages need to be raised and some mobs damage needs to be nerfed.
Anyone with half a brain could have seen PvE was going to be screwed up. I said as much. The focus of the test server was for PvP, not PvE. Oh look, PvE sucks. What a shock...
It's like 2.2 was rolled out to lure capped PvP characters back. Well, can't do much with a capped char, even with skill reset, without PvE to obtain the now-rarepool CPUs and MC5s, not to mention the need to regain XP after using LoMs (should've just made LoMs no-XP loss for the time being).
Figure KK will get PvE sorted out about a month after everyone's deserted 2.2 :-(
There was no reason to rush out 2.2. Should have waited.
if the major reason was just reprogging everything so it can be tweaked easily, why didn't they do just that? then they would have a base (2.1) with known flaws to work on.
What you have now is a buggy beta with bugs that would actually require a roleback, no usefull basis to start balancing on and completely whiped classes (tho not the ones played most often) from the game. you have to grind like an ass to reach woc as it's becoming more and more a must for pvp, non rare weapons are not viable at all with the exception of epic lasers as this whole class just deals to much damage. oh and setups are restricted like they have never been before, so imo this whole game has become a wow with a cyberpunk setting and a 1st person interface. (and a much smaller community)
2.2 is simply rushed out in a state of not even near completion.
Biggest problem so far that has not been addressed is the money situation.
Good news is, that from what we hear, with the new system, they can change things fast, w/o affecting 50 different areas. Lets just hope that this is true, because they will have to change a lot of stuff in order to make this player friendly again.
People will only return/resubscribe if more content is in the making. I only wish KK have had the brains to keep some stuff under the hood ready to be introduced to the masses to keep interest high. They also need to realize, that whatever NC2.1 was, you still had a game you knew how to play w/o the need of setting up a whole support base for a runner.
Seraphin[69]
16-03-07, 08:38
Good news is, that from what we hear, with the new system, they can change things fast, w/o affecting 50 different areas. Lets just hope that this is true, because they will have to change a lot of stuff in order to make this player friendly again.
Well... they also said that fixing one thing will not break another and that's what we saw on the testserver already... when the mobs were unkillable for exemple...
We have 4 or 5 people joining NC and at the moment its not very useful to tell them 'You can not level yet cos the mobs are broken'. I really would love an emergency fix on noob leveling even if it makes it too easy for a while. Then there is a chance that they will not just quit after the first 10 days.
After that there is a bit more time to fix the insane pvp situation that has been created. If the new system is 100% mutable then a good start point would be to reset it to 2.1 and move from there but thats not likely to happen :)
NC is on a clock, there is a surge of players that will disappear if things are not addressed very quickly.
We have 4 or 5 people joining NC and at the moment its not very useful to tell them 'You can not level yet cos the mobs are broken'. I really would love an emergency fix on noob leveling even if it makes it too easy for a while. Then there is a chance that they will not just quit after the first 10 days.
...
NC is on a clock, there is a surge of players that will disappear if things are not addressed very quickly.I foresaw most of what we see now and spoke about it often, it's guaranteed to happen with the way Reakktor collectively think. Again, they don't listen or make use of common sense. It's exactly the same as what we saw with 2.1. Things were rushed, lots of problems emerged (including a reload bug - why? Surely the first thing you do when making weapon-related changes is you test the weapons afterwards), and the people who came back for the free time were struck by two rollbacks and the problem I just mentioned, being unable to reload. What happens? They get fed up and leave with the same old bitter remarks as when they quit previously.
This time round, I hoped they had learnt from their mistakes. It seems they haven't. They've hurried along and released 2.2 in a totally unsatisfactory condition which most of the community even agreed with, forcing existing paying customers and returning players to put up with destroyed PvE among other broken things, which are crucial elements of the game.
And to the people whining about teething problems which can now hopefully be fixed independantly - suck on the aforementioned balls.No offense intended, but get your head out of your arse, my friend. The population was never low because of inbalanced classes, it was low because generally most people lost interest or they got tired of crashing/getting stuck in sync every two minutes. Instead of telling people to stop whining about "teething" problems, think why these people are whining in the first place. They're being forced to pay for an even more disfunctional game, and those returning end up leaving again because it's even worse than when they played the game in the beginning. These "teething" problems should have stayed on the Test Server until being fixed, before 2.2 is moved to retail. Unfortunately though Reakktor seem to prefer deeply frustrating their customers.
NC is on a clock, there is a surge of players that will disappear if things are not addressed very quickly.
So true, i already for see me hitting the UNINSTALL button. I so wanted to give NC a go after the rebalance. Back when i quit nearly a year ago when they announced the rebalance project i thought ok seems they realy trying to sort it out, but why on earth did they rush thru this ? it is so unfinished its unreal (not you unreal m8, but hihi anyway o/), the engine seems more unstable now then it did back then, every one will be having the same set ups now (like i can no longer have a NO PA Judge PE) the implants are o_O , PvE is just o_O now. This game holds alot of fond memories for me which if im honest are gonna stay just that MEMORIES.
PEs are screwed in many ways:
Nanite protection is useless
H-C PEs are no longer fun
Can't gun vehicles
No valid ENR armor without gimping a DEX setup
... PEs are no longer Jack-of-all-trades, they suck in almost every direction.
cuz u cannot use EVERY high lvl weapon there is ? HARDLY
i think pes are just down to the lvl the rest of the classes are now
Lifewaster
16-03-07, 13:01
people joining NC and at the moment its not very useful to tell them 'You can not level yet cos the mobs are broken'. I really would love an emergency fix on noob leveling even if it makes it too easy for a while.
I agree with this , personally I like the way 2.2 is for capped players now , but yesterday I tried to get a friend to join....personally spent about 2 hours just csting rifles/gear for him to use on a rifle spy......and then :
"Heres a good place for you to lvl , see how you get on"
Approx 3 seconds for his reticle to close , before he could shoot at the rank 6 mobs , meantime the mobs keep jumping around , meaning he lost reticle lock after ever shot or so.....with 4 shots needed to kill => 30 seconds or more to kill each mob. Meantime the mobs seem to have zero problems getting reticle lock on him, so he used a lot of medpacks.....and waiting for the 4-5 str lvls he needs to actually wear any armor doesnt help)
His skills were lvling very slow , after 2 hours of him awkwardly trying to lock on to the mobs , he killed about 60 mobs and gained 3 dex lvl , 1 int lvl, and zero str/con lvl. Meantime he used about 50k worth of medpacks....which I had given, and earned about 20k to cover the costs.(if he had 24 recycle he could make the medpacks.....but waiting for the 5 more dex lvls he needs just to get this is'nt gonna happen soon either)
I dont think I will be able to get him to keep playing tbh..despite that he has a sponsor for free gear/cash/advice where to hunt (....something other genuine noobs wont even have)
The msg that "this game will rock once you cap and can PvP" doesnt have the same meaning to ppl who cant see themselves getting from rank /2 to rank /10 inside the next week.....
cuz u cannot use EVERY high lvl weapon there is ? HARDLY
i think pes are just down to the lvl the rest of the classes are now
you really are illiterate huh? :wtf:
he didn't even mention weapons, what he did mention is true, pes have hit the 'sweet spot' between tank armor and spy armor, making their armor resistance only slightly better than that of a spy, unless they use so many str implants that they could be considered hc pes.
low level psi shields have been nerfed, so a pes defense actually is worse then the one of a spy using nanites, which is great considering they have a higher dmage output and can still stealth.
if a pe wants to have any advantage from his high psi skill he has to at least use one drug and one psi imp, so he can cast the smallest resist buffs.
vehicles have all been given to the tank and the new ones use dex and rc, so a pe (not even a hc pe) cannot use any halfdecent combat vehicle anymore, only the ones a spy can use as well.
oh but pes can debuff now, which just requires them to totally gimp their psi and is absolutely useless in a 1 on 1 situation as it's only applicable on other pes, whereas ppl with a not completely incompetent buttplug would just have it recast while it's running, they can even stand still and say what they want with please and a cherry on top as their shields slowly run while they blast the pes ass.
so atm
a spy has got: good resists, high damage, stealth
a tank has got: great resists, high damage, fancy cars
a pe has got: some resists, mediocre damage, a useless debuff vs other pes
oh i forgot the 5 sec stealth ofc, which enables a pe to not infiltrate an enemy city and not shake off any chasers, but will give you a nice drugflash after having been used for some time, if you're lucky enuff to live that long while having to use it.
welcome to tankocron (spyocron) :lol:
awkward silence
16-03-07, 16:41
you really are illiterate huh? :wtf:
he didn't even mention weapons, what he did mention is true, pes have hit the 'sweet spot' between tank armor and spy armor, making their armor resistance only slightly better than that of a spy, unless they use so many str implants that they could be considered hc pes.
low level psi shields have been nerfed, so a pes defense actually is worse then the one of a spy using nanites, which is great considering they have a higher dmage output and can still stealth.
if a pe wants to have any advantage from his high psi skill he has to at least use one drug and one psi imp, so he can cast the smallest resist buffs.
vehicles have all been given to the tank and the new ones use dex and rc, so a pe (not even a hc pe) cannot use any halfdecent combat vehicle anymore, only the ones a spy can use as well.
oh but pes can debuff now, which just requires them to totally gimp their psi and is absolutely useless in a 1 on 1 situation as it's only applicable on other pes, whereas ppl with a not completely incompetent buttplug would just have it recast while it's running, they can even stand still and say what they want with please and a cherry on top as their shields slowly run while they blast the pes ass.
so atm
a spy has got: good resists, high damage, stealth
a tank has got: great resists, high damage, fancy cars
a pe has got: some resists, mediocre damage, a useless debuff vs other pes
oh i forgot the 5 sec stealth ofc, which enables a pe to not infiltrate an enemy city and not shake off any chasers, but will give you a nice drugflash after having been used for some time, if you're lucky enuff to live that long while having to use it.
welcome to tankocron (spyocron) :lol:
Lore got pwned!
Anyway Yuuki is right. The nerf on the lowest psi shields took PE's out of the race.
Well, I recently DLed 2.2 for the trial version after being away from the game since beta. I've got to say that I agree with most of you. PvE is so unbelievably tedious as to be nearly unplayable. Starting off, unless you're a soldier or an assassin, things take about two mintues to kill if you're using a ranged weapon. While rifles and heavy weapons seem to do fairly well, pistols are the most worthless piles of junk I have ever used in any game I can think of. When I am in the newbie area it's far more efficient to pull out a knife and just slash things to death at 7 dmg a swing with twice the attack rate and no aiming radicle. Not to mention that if you manage to upgrade to the smg from the trader at MC5, it's WORSE than your starting pistol. Ha. I am happy that they improved pvp for all of you who have been playing for a while, but this game holds nothing for the newer users.
Additionally, the three classes that I feel would be the most interesting to me - the driver, the droner and the hacker, are all bugged to hell right now anyway (made a few drivers and half the time class quest didn't yield a vehicle for me....). 2.2 feels much more like an early stage of beta than an addition to a game that has been going on for five years. You guys are right, all of us who are using the trial are NOT going to stick around.
(Oh, and I am one of the lucky few to have the sync bug every time I log on, sometimes for more than half and hour without being able to get through it)
NicoTron77
21-03-07, 18:45
Can I have your stuff?
I like almost every aspect about 2.2 except the bugged aggies and maybe the implant condition. Maybe could increase the loot worth by 5-10x. But it's all good in the hood.
Same here. The lil bugs are annoying of course, but the overall feel is GREAT.
I think people in general don't like change, although they are craving for it everywhere. But when it happens, when all their old habits and established behavior patterns have to change, they are bitching about *e v e r y t h i n g*.
And I really feel the urge to tell all these people officially a honest and deeply felt: FU !
Especially when they're leaving the game. Why don't they just fucking leave then, without a damn word. 'Cause really, nobody cares about their anger but their Mom. Why don't they tell her then, instead of spamming the in game channels?
Neocron's been worse than it is now, and my expectations are low. If people can't cope with the game and its current state, they should just fuck off and delete their chars. But without a fucking word on the in game channels please, because that affects other players negatively. Especially the new ones. And they are the ones I care about.
Ok I just have to grill you.
Same here. The lil bugs are annoying of course, but the overall feel is GREAT.
One word that stands out is 'little' (or 'lil' for the tards among us). Most of the bugs that 2.2 has brought us are huge and extremely annoying. PPU shields breaking on zoning, implants being broken in the head, vehicles not giving xp, teams not giving xp, weapons being massively overpowered compared and certain extremely expensive in-game items being turned into something that's worth less than a used condom. Just to name a few. Quite frankly I would be embarassed with my team and myself if I was KK and it was me who had just released 2.2 especially with all the shit that's gone wrong with it.
I think people in general don't like change, although they are craving for it everywhere. But when it happens, when all their old habits and established behavior patterns have to change, they are bitching about *e v e r y t h i n g*.
You don't change things for the sake of changing it. You change it to make it better. I always wanted NC to change (so don't feed me your bullshit speech about 'craving change everywhere but bitch about it when it happens') but 2.2 has completely changed the game by either going over the top on the most specific aspects of the game or just completely breaking them all together.
And I really feel the urge to tell all these people officially a honest and deeply felt: FU !
Well fuck you too. :rolleyes:
Especially when they're leaving the game. Why don't they just fucking leave then, without a damn word. 'Cause really, nobody cares about their anger but their Mom. Why don't they tell her then, instead of spamming the in game channels?
I'm not leaving the game. Retake KS1 English and read my post again. If I was to leave NC I certainly wouldn't go about it quietly, why should I? I'll spam all the in-game channels with anything I want because hey it doesn't matter right, I'm aparently leaving.
Neocron's been worse than it is now, and my expectations are low. If people can't cope with the game and its current state, they should just fuck off and delete their chars.
In my opinion Neocron has never been worse off than it is now. NC1 was brilliant, NC2 wasn't as good but I was really happy with 2.1 and could see myself playing until I need to quit. Perhaps if I don't like the changes I should quit, not going to though. I'm going to wait for NC to get better, because 2.2 can't get much worse while still coming across as a complete game.
But without a fucking word on the in game channels please, because that affects other players negatively. Especially the new ones. And they are the ones I care about.
Sounds to me like someone got absolutely spanked on trade by the angry mob that don't like 2.2. In fact if you're in-game tonight I'll spend some of my spare time bitching and whining and crying and throwing my toys out the pram about everything I don't like in 2.2. Just for you. The amount of people in-game that don't like 2.2 is something largely different to those on the forums. Promise.
When I read the title, I think of John Lennons song - Happy Xmas (War is over) with Neocron lyrics :P.
"So this is christmas..."
ive seen plenty of PEs who did very good, and apparently havent ben hit by this huge nerf bat. Maybee u should talk to one of those. Maybe pes got hit the hardest cuz they needed to be hit the hardest in the balancing thing(except the monks of course)
ive seen plenty of PEs who did very good, and apparently havent ben hit by this huge nerf bat. Maybee u should talk to one of those. Maybe pes got hit the hardest cuz they needed to be hit the hardest in the balancing thing(except the monks of course)
Simply put, in 2.2, there were a lot of fixes which were keeping this game for the very few: Para, DB, APUs, xbow PE...
I enjoy the game in OP fights now 3x more, even though I used to have HUGE fun on my xbow PE, attacking monks all the time:p
For the first time in OP fights I am enjoying nice pvp duels with many combos: 1 against 2, 2 vs 2 and more. I think we are moving in the right direction. A little care should be taken to the weapons damage envelops, so we dont have overpowered weapons anymore. And btw, the PPU is now more important than it was in 2.1. Back in 2.1 the APU was stealing his fame. Therefore, most times an op fight is lost it is because of the ppus. I dont think this is going in the right direction. Maybe the role of the ppu shpu;d be nerfed a bit...
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