View Full Version : NC 2.2 Release Date
KK, PLEASE PUSH THIS BACK.
It's 1 week from now, and we all know 2.2 needs a fair bit more work.
Rushing 2.2 is just going to leave people crying...
/edit to correct date, 7 days /= 2 weeks.
/agree
Its not ready yet! If KK don't get it all ready with everything balanced neatly with NPCs fix etc etc etc, They must push the release date back, if it is released it will only cause more upset and most likely the need for future adjustments!
You are fucking shitting me? It is no where near ready!
EDIT:// Well i will see when its march the 6th and then i will post
Lifewaster
28-02-07, 20:31
7th march is quite soon ^^
I hope we see some more urgent test patches to come yet. Though personally I'm quite excited to see the changes in live play (op fights etc)
ashley watts
28-02-07, 20:35
Don't release it yet, it doesnt even seem CLOSE to finish there are a LOT more things you have to work on before releasing this... :mad: :mad:
can we still play 2.1? =[
please give us some more time left with the real nc, i was hoping we'd have at least till the summer, 2.2's barely a step up from being an utter joke atm sorry but it's true, i'm so sad we're finally losing nc
can we still play 2.1? =[
please give us some more time left with the real nc, i was hoping we'd have at least till the summer, 2.2's barely a step up from being an utter joke atm sorry but it's true, i'm so sad we're finally losing nc
Aye! I have just come back due to Paypal and have fallen in love with 2.1 all over again, now taking it away with 2.2 as it is now, will maybe destroy NC for quite a few.
But like i said i will post before the release date
Definitely agree, the changes are absolutely nowhere near final yet. There's still a mass of problems that have been unaddressed. Instead of using the retail servers as the test servers, which is what's been happening for years until recently, continue as you are at the moment on the test server until things are more close to a retail-worthy and acceptable quality. Don't go backwards.
As always, it might be worth plugging in another message for you to listen to (if at all) as well. Events. Events. Events. Events. Events. Once balancing is at an acceptable stage, finally start working on the storyline more often rather than progressing it in some silly way once or twice a year, and work on making events a regularity rather than a rarity. Bring some fun to the servers on a regular basis. Isn't it about time faction rewards were given out? Make use of all the old/unused content damnit.
terra has been getting up to 17/18%, QUAN has been getting 0/1%
the facts are 2.1 > 2.2
don't give it the excuse it's testserver it doesn't matter, i was fully intending on making it my home server till it sucked (sorry again =[)
THIS WILL KILL NC ='[[
hehe, did you see that guy , holding is sign with an
"The End is near" writing on it? ^^
If 2.2 is released in the way it is then say bye bye tbh because 2.2 atm is FUCKED! sort it out first even with the increase of players now if you release it now you WILL!! loose them all.
Dribble Joy
28-02-07, 20:54
Hot shit you have to delay this. Weeks if not months.
2.2 is not ready. Bits are good, but you need to do a lot more work.
Please. Seriously.
Whooaaa... hold your horses, please! Surely it makes sense to unveil the 'finished article' for appraisal on the test server before any release date is announced?
Get concensus (or a very large majority) of people saying they think it's finished before inviting people back to play! Remember the reload problem in 2.1?
Bring em back with PayPal and then fuck em over with 2.2 =/
Pestilence
28-02-07, 21:00
Oh damn, Evo 2.2 is not ready yet. I thought about 2 months, but 1 week? That's....wow...erm...yes...
Dribble Joy
28-02-07, 21:04
Whooaaa... hold your horses, please! Surely it makes sense to unveil the 'finished article' for appraisal on the test server before any release date is announced?
Exactly, we haven't seen the changes (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2056711&postcount=8) on the TS for the next patch yet.
CritiNator
28-02-07, 21:08
Oops, they did it a again!
I dont think 2.2 is ready for retail yet, BUT.
Neocron is far best MMO there is. It just dont have players.. im afraid this wont help it :D
But i wont certainly quit. Neocron has always been on public beta stage, so why change that :P
EDIT: And anything can happen after they patch final to test
Seriously you know Kk aswell as soon as thye patch in these new updates 5 other things will break and be in the release version
I hope you know what your doing Reakktor 2.2 is going to MAKE or BREAK NC, if you screw this up ALOT of people will quit and none will come back so I hope you got this right! Last time I played on the test server I was so dismayed I gave up testing! Until all the armour/imps got sorted, now that's going to happen with no testing?
my account is already cancel'd thats about as much as ima do it'll be active when 2.2 comes out im giving it a try then im seeing what its like if its the same as the test server then im quiting perma...
And is this gonna be a free upgrade or you gonna have to pay for it? if you've gotta pay for it i doubt anyone will...
well, i gotta agree with pretty much every post i have seen so far in this thread, last time i 'tested' the test server i was left so disatisfied i removed the test server client. The date needs to be pushed back, and as stevenj said, a final version of the test server should be implemented. Im sorry to hear u cancelled ur acc's mr nath :( and im sure u wont be the first. I rarely post on these forums as u can see from my join date and post count :p so u can kinda understand that this is a big deal, not only to me, but to alot of others, i hope u take into consideration the ammount of new ppl that have just joined the game, and the ammount u already currently have, it would be a shame to lose these ppl :(
Sex too u all
Flammable -My uncapped but sext ppu :D
2.2 is not ready yet - The entire community knows this o_O
Releasing it so soon is a bit of a risk (patch 165 is umm...*unpolished*), but I guess you're not truly going to know if the new system will work until it is enforced on the proper servers (0-1% on the test server isn't really achieving huge amounts in terms of testing I suspect).
I hope it works out well.
Can we get an actual response from an offcial please instead of just ignoreing this thread :confused:
2.1 > 2.2
Wait for the release pleaeeaeaeaassseee !!! :mad:
Let's us play 2.1 some more ...
Please please please
2.1 is all we need
Dribble Joy
28-02-07, 22:24
2.1 is all we need
Because it's so perfect isn't it. 2.2 isn't either, but it's probably better than 2.1.
2.2 is still rough around the edges, and needs a lot of work, but the basics are better than the steaming pile of non-balance that is 2.1.
Carrot Muncher
28-02-07, 22:24
Give us some more time we need to give 2.1 a proper goodbye
I've only been back one week
RogerRamjet
28-02-07, 22:39
I haven't yet played 2.2, but if people are saying delay it till it's ready, then I have to agree with them.
I haven't yet played 2.2, but if people are saying delay it till it's ready, then I have to agree with them.
Same... been out for a LONG time, and I'd love to come back into a new game where my opportunity to PVP is fun once again.
But KK, for as long as I've been playing, you guys have ALWAYS pushed things out before they were ready. I know you want to make people happy, but if you drop it now, of all times, after how much careful planning I've seen you guys doing, this will be the final straw for all those players who were waiting for THIS opportunity to come back to the game they fell in love with years ago.
If it's not ready, don't feed it to the people.
Worst is, the release date is right the week before my exams. And after that i'll be moving and then working fulltime so i won't have any time at all.
I even deleted NC completely, including the setup files to stop me from playing the free 2.2 trial. :mad: :mad:
Please keep working on it another week or two, i really don't think it's anywhere near balanced.
Lifewaster
28-02-07, 23:40
Hmm, dont get carried away... theres a lot of very good things in 2.2 , which when compared to 2.1 there isnt even any argument....provided the remaining outstanding issues reported are patched(PvE and APUs) then the launch shouldnt be such a dramatic change.
Heres a few good points which are already in:
Paraspam is gone
Monkacron is gone
NIb buffing/healing is gone
Amount of classes who can Stealthwhore is halved
PE/SPY/APU/Tank are much more closely balanced in offense and defense , including when supported by PPUs
PPU influence is smaller overall, as well as being pretty equal in the power it adds to each of any class (PPU+SPY vs PPU+Tank vs PPU+APU = all have pretty equal chance to beat the other combo now)
####
Bad points which havent been patched yet :
PvE is very hard , especially at noob lvls. (currently under review)
APU aiming. (currently under review)
####
If you have major concerns, the class specific balancing threads and bug forums are still open, so why not log into 2.2 and test some stuff out yourselves in this final week, and get more feedback in before the final patches go live.
Pay attention also to this thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=136952) to see which issues are already under review.
ROFLMFAO How many posts in support of this premature ejaculation (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=24984&dict=CALD)?
We put a lot of effort into bringing more transparency and dynamic into the game in collaboration with the community
Hello? Anybody listening?
Smells like the prelude to a plug-pulling.
Apocalypsox
28-02-07, 23:57
The almighty apoc will speak on this matter.
DONT FUCKIN RELEASE IT YET. everyone knows it aint, to any point, anywhere near a possible retail release. Give it another 2 weeks ontop of the deadline.
I agree with life, ive been on the TS quite abit and the basis of the game is there and like they say it just needs a bit of "fine tuning", that would be easier with more people testing but most of the problems are ironed out or being ironed out. I think it can be pulled off but not with out support.
This is an early April Fool's joke, right?
2.2? Next week?
Is the entirety of KK on shrooms or something?
If you have major concerns, the class specific balancing threads and bug forums are still open, so why not log into 2.2 and test some stuff out yourselves in this final week, and get more feedback in before the final patches go live.
Why should I? You're all busy testing combat and haven't bothered to check what happened to tradeskilling. You also barely seem to care about the implant disaster - you're all too busy using 120/120/120/120 weapons for testing.
Lifewaster
01-03-07, 00:31
Well, if anything, going live may be good in that we will be able to test with retail populations, and hopefully serious issues which develop can be addressed.
Well, if anything, going live may be good in that we will be able to test with retail populations, and hopefully serious issues which develop can be addressed.You've been here since 2003 and you're making that statement?
Do you play the same game as the rest of us? KK's ability to fix things after the fact is practically non-existent.
The current changes KK has implemented mean most of my chars become untenable. Imps have had their mainstat bonuses effectively halved, but equipment reqs haven't changed, so good luck wearing Spy PA 3 and forget about wearing PA4. There are no longer any 0-negative imps - SF, Marine, Psi Core, all incur major penalties when installed. Then there's the mob HP/armor issue - a spiderbot is as hard to kill as a Warbot. And gloves? They require imp to put on/take off. This is just the tip of the iceberg as I only tested for about a day. I'm sure there's waaay more I haven't been punished with yet.
The problem being it takes Reakktor a long time to "fine tune" things. They change something, which changes something else (either lack of knowing what the intended change will affect, or lack of testing, probably both), resulting in that unintended change being changed to fix the problem. There are indeed several good changes overall, but I think some of the ecstatic people posting here are exaggerating quite a bit. A fair amount of things still need to be improved upon and/or resolved, but at least there's two weeks to go before the said release date. Time to just wait and see what gets done I suppose.
Please get 95% intended functionality on the test server before moving things over to the retail servers before rushing something out just for the sake of saying it's there and it's been done. If you were doing an essay and you turned in a bunch of scribble what would your tutor respond with? The answer should be pretty clear, it's unacceptable. In olden days you'd probably get a good slapping, possibly with an object such as a cane or belt.
A decent standard needs to be aimed for (which I've always assumed would and most certainly should be a common practice anyhow). After all these years the community have always been responding to Reakktors questions that generally don't get answered regarding dates automatically with "when it's done(tm)". It would be best to keep the tradition going this time round. A lot of old and potentially new players (and therefore a chance to increase the player base (and therefore customer base - which means a profit increase) will be paying attention now that PayPal has arrived, and that balancing is round the corner.
So having said that, definitely take a second look at what Nvidia said.
...KK, for as long as I've been playing, you guys have ALWAYS pushed things out before they were ready. I know you want to make people happy, but if you drop it now, of all times, after how much careful planning I've seen you guys doing, this will be the final straw for all those players who were waiting for THIS opportunity to come back to the game they fell in love with years ago.
It's the final countdown! *does fancy guitar moves*
braydagner
01-03-07, 02:10
...so what game is everyone moving to now?
I don't really have place to comment as i've not been active on the test server or the retail servers since before Christmas but just from reading responses on certain topics and changes it has to be seen that 2.2 still needs more development time spanning into a few extra months to get everything not just what KK consider to be fixed sorted, there have been many issues with NPCs still, as well as vehicle problems and the APU in general (it seems).
Although these are mentioned in the "Bug Reports" sticky it dosn't mean you are going to have them all fixed to a customer satisfactory level with the seven short days before release.
You've listened for this balancing project and i hope you will listen again, 2.2 needs delaying by at least a month to ensure everything is ready and if that occurs and time is left over for work to be done on other areas still causing problems for many years, like various areas of the City Com system.
In my own opinion i think a release in late April or early May would be more suitable giving the time for things to be as ready as possible and to prepare some form of documentation which isn't just reading the balance forum such as the final change percentages in comparison to 2.1. Doing this might also allow people to come back and stay as Universitys will be closed, allot of colleges soon there after with all schools etc breaking up in July which will allow a big portion of people who play the game, time to play and adjust, not try and log on here and there between lectures exams and higher work loads to be confuzed not knowing how to work this new game, cancelling, logging off and not giving it another chance.
That's my opinion at least.
Woah there pull it back a bit no need to rush things you've been doing well so far listen to what people say
and to prepare some form of documentation which isn't just reading the balance forum such as the final change percentages in comparison to 2.1.
WINNAR :D
EXCELLENT idea. A .PDF document that explains EVERYTHING that has changed from 2.1 to 2.2 would be an amazing start to anyone who hasn't been following the balancing forum.
Expecting the people who are coming straight back to reactivate and haven't looked here since they left to know what's been changed would be a foolish mistake.
That would be on par with changing SL drop rules to where unless you kept yours at 100, when you died, you dropped everything, and not telling anyone who came back.
After all, (to my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong), the entire content/skills, and some play dynamics were completely re-written, right?
Telling these people who are skeptical about even fixing bugs to fend for themselves on what's been changed would probably turn most of them away immediately.
O M F G!!!! WTF is KK thinking? i know u all have been working hard on this, but it is not even close to retail worthyness. please dont get knowone being on the test server confused with the playerbase being satisfied with the current changes. most of us test on patch day, see that none of the complaints we had about the last patch hav been addressed, and not log back on til the next patch. it has been apparent for quite some time that kk really doesnt know their own game and that they r gonna make it the way they want reguardless of what the community thinks (despite what they say) IF u release 2.2 next week it WILL be the death of my favorite game :(
out of all the responses in this thread i can count the number of players on one hand that r ok with this announcement.
just my 2 cents
Seems quite messy...but Neocron always has been.
PvP was always about the people you wanted to kill/take revenge upon....let us do this. I'd come back for this, not for a grind and a headache.
Quakeworld not WoW.
This isn't funny, and I think this is a big mistake.
2.2 is not ready for Retail.
I said many times, I don't care when you release it, so long as it's done properly. You are rushing this out. There is no deadline set for releasing 2.2.
Remember the issues that came with 2.1.
If you release it like this, this could really kill the game off.
Lifewaster
01-03-07, 03:44
Several practical things to consider :
Will the class balancing forums remain open after launch so ppl (who will be new to 2.2) can give their feelings on the new state of their classes.
How will skill reset be handled ? This is a big issue eg: monks require to switch from 85 MST to new setup with 150+ FCS , or Pistol users who need to add WEP, etc.
Also ppl will need to make new skill setups, and change them since they will make mistakes in the early days , how to handle this ? Can we have a temporary issue of NON-EXP/SI Loss LOMS for a period of adjustment for these players ?
What will happen to the test server in meantime, will it mirror retail so ppl can test setups there ?
Or will the auto-log feature on test , be available in retail for ppl to use to work out setups either?
This isn't funny, and I think this is a big mistake.
2.2 is not ready for Retail.
I said many times, I don't care when you release it, so long as it's done properly. You are rushing this out. There is no deadline set for releasing 2.2.
Remember the issues that came with 2.1.
If you release it like this, this could really kill the game off.
exactly what i wanted to say
PROBLEMS WITH RELEASE:
JUST HAPPENING BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE A NEED FOR THE RELEASE TO SPUR POPS.. it'll just kill them
NOT ALL THE BUGS HAVE BEEN WORKED OUT, many have gone unread on the fucking bug topic... or just unaddressed.
[ edited ]
EVERYONE IS TELLING YOU NO, so if you go ahead and release on the 7th, thats just proving the point before.
TRADESKILLS ARE LEFT UNADDRESSED, which was a very popular topic and it seemed like people wanted that to be changed as well.
MOBS ARE TOO HARD TO FIGHT
VEHICLES SUCK TERRIBLY NOW
CLASSES HAVEN'T CHANGED IN ALL IN BALANCE, JUST ALOT OF NUMERICAL CHANGES AND PEOPLE DYING FASTER
THERE ARE STILL BUGS, and if the amount that you're planning on fixing to make 2.2 releasable will be fixed, what the fuck have you been doing since nc1 beta?
WoC WEAPONS? MAYBE? it was a popular request for woc items for each class other than the PAs... but who reads the forums anyway? (WHICH WERE SUPPOSED TO BE OF NO BENEFIT)
IN AN EFFORT TO REDUCE DRUGGING FOR BENEFITS, you've made it worse, people need to use more to make their setups competetive... especially since implants are complete shit
IMPLANTS ARE COMPLETE SHIT, go naked, same as the positives and negatives equaling out...
THE ARMOR SYSTEM IS TERRIBLE, it is probably a main reason balancing is still the way it was.
THE SHIELD SYSTEM IS TERRIBLE, not only does it make pvp shorter (the thing we strive for hours on end to be decent at and have fun doing... fun... you know, why we play games) IT also keeps balancing off center.
BALANCING WAS DONE BASED ON SETUPS, not on char classes.... pistol pes are worse, but so are melee and hc pes, which already sucked.
THE GAME IS IN SLOW MOTION. yeah, everything is time consuming, including walking, oh wait, pvp isn't slow, everyone just moves like snails and drop like flies.
EVERYBODY HATES IT
oh yeah, ps.... if this is released right now, i garuntee the game will die. flat out die.
CritiNator
01-03-07, 07:51
oh yeah, ps.... if this is released right now, i garuntee the game will die. flat out die.
And what makes you think so? There has been LOTS of problems in NC. But still we are playing.
Ill understand, why kk wants to put it live. None uses test server. Its simple. They can get it to balance way faster at retails. Thou we are the ones who pay that :D
2.2 has lots of things that NC needs. It just needs tweaking.
Apocalypsox
01-03-07, 07:58
And what makes you think so? There has been LOTS of problems in NC. But still we are playing.
Ill understand, why kk wants to put it live. None uses test server. Its simple. They can get it to balance way faster at retails. Thou we are the ones who pay that :D
2.2 has lots of things that NC needs. It just needs tweaking.
agreed. but if they dont fix mobs first, the economy WILL die and then no one will be able to play therefore no one will.
WTF... O_o O_o
John, Christian, is it possible KK made an April Fools joke on this?
How the heck are you gonna release something that is still unbalanced and expect an n00b army inrush with mobs that are so hard to kill?
Isnt it more prudent to wait a lil bit and at list fix some thing before? For instance balance monks out a bit more... What are you doing? you commit?
Im not shocked i rember NC1 b4 to NC1 retail and NC2 beta to NC2 retail moves its quite normal for KK to force us to play Betail and eventually fix some bugs later (some bugs from nc1 b4 are still here lol)
Yay the death of NC.. :(
Ah well guess im gonna have alot of freetime now :rolleyes:
Wait with the release, till its DONE! PLEASE!
As people have already said, NC will either be grand('ish) or die with 2.2
If it gets released now, then its gonna die..
Wait with the release, till its DONE! PLEASE!
:mad:
..... nc1 > nc2.2 > nc2.*
This might be a little contradictive of itself since I've just woken up and I'm just writing thoughts out as they come to me.
Sorry, but this is exactly the kinda hype that surrounded the release of DoY (which I might add took something daft like two years longer then the initial release date) and I admit that I've not been on the test server, but from what I've heard there're some good changes expected, and people seem to be focussing on the crap.
Having said that, from what people have said, things are most deffinately missing, like APU's being able to aim (which is no crime in my book :P) so until the most obvious issues are resolved, and the main functions enabled, 2.2 should be held back a little, be it a month or what-ever.
The sad fact is that any new update of this size is bound to have issues, and it's rather a well known rumour that KK only has one coder (it's certainly what I've heard from someone who claims to be wiser then most), but KK does have rather a poor track record of releasing things that just don't quite work right. If you take what I said about the release of DoY being pushed back as long as it was. Two years is long enough to write the game from scratch with a dedicated team, but NC2 was still nearly as bugged as NC1 was.
If KK push back the release date a week, a month, a fornight or even a quarter, does it actually mean that real progress will be made?
This might be a little contradictive of itself since I've just woken up and I'm just writing thoughts out as they come to me.
Sorry, but this is exactly the kinda hype that surrounded the release of DoY (which I might add took something daft like two years longer then the initial release date) and I admit that I've not been on the test server, but from what I've heard there're some good changes expected, and people seem to be focussing on the crap.
Having said that, from what people have said, things are most deffinately missing, like APU's being able to aim (which is no crime in my book :P) so until the most obvious issues are resolved, and the main functions enabled, 2.2 should be held back a little, be it a month or what-ever.
The sad fact is that any new update of this size is bound to have issues, and it's rather a well known rumour that KK only has one coder (it's certainly what I've heard from someone who claims to be wiser then most), but KK does have rather a poor track record of releasing things that just don't quite work right. If you take what I said about the release of DoY being pushed back as long as it was. Two years is long enough to write the game from scratch with a dedicated team, but NC2 was still nearly as bugged as NC1 was.
If KK push back the release date a week, a month, a fornight or even a quarter, does it actually mean that real progress will be made?
Yes, alot the issues still present can be easily fixed with little effort, it's no good just expecting people to be thrown an update which will make a currently acceptable(ish) game almost certainly worse in it's current state.
CritiNator
01-03-07, 12:29
Its not like its something new. As was said before, this is not first time. Same with nc1, nc2,nc2.1.
2.2 has lots of new features and its going to change the game. 2.2 is something that we have waited for a long time. It is not ready yet, everyone knows it, but so what? These first 30 days will be used to change setup, so they still have time to do fixes. Im really looking forward to see it retail and im willing to pay for it.
Dear KK,
First of all, I speak as a player who has been playing Neocron for 4 to 5 years. I don’t speak as a site owner of the Tech Haven network.
You have decided to announce the release date for 2.2 for the Wednesday 7th March 2007.
This is one of the biggest mistakes you have made, and I’m going to tell you why. And I’m certainly not going to hold back any punches.
Lets looks at the good stuff. PvP balance is looking good, it’s holding promise and I do believe you (KK) can get it right.
I say “Get it right”, as there are some areas that need fine tuning. Just read some of the comments in the Balancing forum.
There are still some unresolved issues that are considered major issues.
First of all there hasn’t been a patch 166. There are some big issues in patch 165 that haven’t been fixed or addressed. The first is the mob balance for PvE. Only THREE days ago did a thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138103) open on this issue, there has been no feedback on those concerns from the Devs. There is also the newbie experience and also the issue of Drones. This is only touching the surface of the current issues.
John Doe has posted yesterday a list of issues (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2056711&postcount=8) that are current in progress, as of yesterday. Here it is for everyone.
In Progress:
- Rework of the Line Of Sight for APU modules*
- Rework of vehicle seat requirements*
- Rework of penalties on implants*
- Rework of NPC health*
- Release preparations
- Storyline preparations
- General bugfixings
Missing Features:
- Various NPCs
Known Bugs:
- PSI Support: Soulcluster does not have a shot effect
- Hacknet: Player model is not displayed correctly
I’ve marked the ones with a * I consider to a major balancing issue You have not patched the test server, and do you seriously expect to patch that on the test server, get everyone to test that, and then patch again to address the issues raised by the patch in a week? Here is my professional opinion as a Software Engineer – No chance.
Also I was going to get a few PvE Quan events going, just to test the PvE in various caves. There could have been a lot of feedback from this, allowing you fine-tune and eliminate any issues before 2.2 made it to retail. There seems little point in doing that.
Remember a test server is a controlled environment to allow testing, and re-testing when you fix bugs or change any code. Well as things stand now, there is little point to this. To repeat my comment from earlier, do you seriously expect to patch that on the test server, get everyone to test that, and then patch again to address the issues raised by the patch in a week? Once again, here is my professional opinion as a Software Engineer – No chance.
I also feel the community gave KK one last chance when KK announced their plans to rebalance Neocron. Now you have just blown that chance.
With the combination of the 30 days free playtime, and the imminent release date of 2.2 it feels like you have decided to make the retail players become compulsory testers for 2.2.
Whether you make players pay to play/test Neocron 2.2 or let them play/test free for 30 days make no difference. Players or the community will not tolerate bugs or an unfinished product. Some will come onto the forums and tell you what’s wrong, while the majority of the players will just uninstall the game and walk away without saying a word.
The community has been very supportive of KK for 2.2, but announcing a premature release of 2.2 has probably lost you the majority of the support for 2.2, including from myself.
So this is what I recommend you do.
1. Cancel the 2.2 Release date.
2. Get the next patch out on test server.
3. Get people testing again.
4. Repeat steps 3 and 4 a few more times.
5. Ask the community “Do you think 2.2 is ready?”
6. When the majority of the community say “Yes”, Release it.
Regards,
Brammers.
Durandal|AI
01-03-07, 13:18
i agree with brammers....
it needs more time...
james_finn
01-03-07, 13:28
I agree 100% with what Brammers has said, unfortunatly due to time constraints with my university work I havent been able to get on the Test Server and test, what I have seen looks very promising, and could yet bring Neocron back to a point where we have up to 1000 people on the server. BUT this can only happen if there are NO showstopping balance bugs within the game. Most vets will come back and try it, probably see past the first few bugs they find, but they will not stand for all the problems with 2.2.
As for new players that you hope to bring to the game through 2.2, you wont keep any - I can guarantee that - Im sorry but 100 hits to kill a 2/2 roach as a 0/2 player - how much more of a time sink do you want?
I recommend that ReaKKtor reconsiders the release date for 2.2, have a few more test server patches, get some 'fun' events (read spawining) events going on the Test server to get people on testing, and then work from the player feedback. Ignoring the community at this crucial stage is tantamount to loosing the whole player base.
/Delphi
[TgR]KILLER
01-03-07, 13:44
this early afternoon i suddenly had a msn screen blinking that said "bram"
brammers talking to me! something big must have happend..
Bram zegt:
you heard about 2.2?
[TgR]KILLER.. zegt:
no what ?
Bram zegt:
they are releasing it next week,
Bram zegt:
The idiots!
well.. yea.. lol.. ok i haven't played the beta for a while.. been busy with loads of other things to keep myself playing. i'll try the free game time when it hits.. but i can't really say that i think its gonna be a huge ass succes.. din't like the beta at all cus just so much changed and half of it wasn't even right... and i doubt that much has changed in this short time.
edit. i changed the quote from *not suitable for this forum* back to what brammers actually said.. cus brammers said i could just flat out quote it..
to quote again
Bram zegt:
Hey feel free to quote my "unsuitable" words.
Bram zegt:
I am not worried about that.
So this is what I recommend you do.
1. Cancel the 2.2 Release date.
2. Get the next patch out on test server.
3. Get people testing again.
4. Repeat steps 3 and 4 a few more times.
5. Ask the community “Do you think 2.2 is ready?”
6. When the majority of the community say “Yes”, Release it.
I fully agree. I consider the probability that you'll actually do that to be quite low. But it would be the right thing to do.
We reached an awesome more-than-half-the-way status on 2.2. Things are looking great, we saw plenty of improvements during the last weeks. There were lots of problems, of which a huge portion was fixed. A few more patches and i am rather sure, all of them could be taken care for.
Why not going that way? We held out for so long, we proved that we can handle. We can hold out for another month or two, why not use it to deliver a finished product instead of the almost-done product we got right now? New players will arive, but most of the still not properly addressed problems involve PvE and here again to a good deal low level PvE. They need to be fixed before getting the new players in, else there won't be new players after a very short time.
Please, after so much time and work, the chance is here. Don't waste it by a rush at the last moment.
:lol: :lol: @ Bramms.
Companies don't think that way Brammy :p Just imagine Oral-b to ask its public "should We release our next model of electric toothbrush now? Yes No" ext time what they see, is there stock plummeting :p
Anyway, there must be something going on in order for them to rush things, or its not logical.
Anyway... :rolleyes:
If 2.2 is released this week neocron will be killed off due to 2.2 IS NOT READY YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ive played around on there it took me 5 clips of a poison modded xbow to kill a 20/20 mob think about the new runners? there gonna say as soon as they try to kill those "fuck that" and 90% of the nc population WILL quit due to this release as it is NOT ready for release
I think KK may just have an Ace up their sleeves for this, well in their case a nine. But im sure that they have something that got the tiny KK office excited.
Agree 100% with brammers.
Thinking about the "ask the community if it's ready, then release it"
I have to admit i agree with Jini, companies don't work that way, but it's because companies never try, or try it the bad way.
KK said in a interview, something like "we are proud to develop the game with the help of the community and we would like to involve it more in the future ".
Asking the community is from my point of view a great opportunity to involve people.
brammers poeple could say you're naive or idealist, i would say, stay as you are :)
CritiNator
01-03-07, 14:41
I think KK may just have an Ace up their sleeves for this, well in their case a nine. But im sure that they have something that got the tiny KK office excited.
Hahahaa, im sure they will let us know today something. This post was made so late, that they really had not time to answer until now.
So, Nid! Let us know, whats going on?! Theres new stuff coming to TS and you dont even wanna test it? I know, that theres not much players to test, tbh. Theres not much players at all and by doing things like this.. there will be none new players.. its a shame..
Agree 100% with brammers.
Thinking about the "ask the community if it's ready, then release it"
I have to admit i agree with Jini, companies don't work that way, but it's because companies never try, or try it the bad way.
KK said in a interview, something like "we are proud to develop the game with the help of the community and we would like to involve it more in the future ".
Asking the community is from my point of view a great opportunity to involve people.
brammers poeple could say you're naive or idealist, i would say, stay as you are :)
Fair points said on the "ask the community if it's ready, then release it".
However considering the community has been working with KK on this project, I think the community should be the ones who should say "yeah it's ready or as good as it can get" This thread to me demostrates that if KK did ask that question today, the answer would had been no.
I think a few more test patches will get the game there. If KK get the fixes that John Doe has got working, you will get a lot closer to that big "Yes it's good" answer.
Good god, what are you thinking?
Have some major strides been made with 2.2? Yes, they have.
Are they all in the right direction? No.
Is there anything even approaching the class balance that 2.2 set out to acheive yet? No.
Is PvE even properly playable? No.
Do implants and weapons follow a sensible and balanced pattern yet? No.
Have the main balancing threads been open for long enough (they should have been open months ago, but nevermind)? No.
Is 2.2 actually something I would consider a playble retail game yet? No.
Dear KK,
......
.......
The community has been very supportive of KK for 2.2, but announcing a premature release of 2.2 has probably lost you the majority of the support for 2.2, including from myself.
So this is what I recommend you do.
1. Cancel the 2.2 Release date.
2. Get the next patch out on test server.
3. Get people testing again.
4. Repeat steps 3 and 4 a few more times.
5. Ask the community “Do you think 2.2 is ready?”
6. When the majority of the community say “Yes”, Release it.
Regards,
Brammers.
Hi Brammers,
i fully agree and consider that is a excellent appeal to convince KK that it may be bad thing to release 2.2 at this time.
I have translated and transferred your writing into the German speaking part. ;)
Letter by Brammers (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?p=2056977&posted=1#post2056977)
.
Well i'm v.new to the game however the time i have spent on NC has been brilliant!
Although i haven't been on the TS myself i have spoken to people who have and have been reading just about all the threads that are concerned with it. What i'm hearing is worrying, if KK really are going to release it this soon and it really is as unfinished as all of you are saying then it does seem like many people will leave.
This has upset me somewhat as although i've only just joined i have wanted to since 2001, however circumstances have stopped me from being able to join till now. I'm now finally on the game i've wanted to be on for ages and REALLY enjoying it but it now looks like it's all about to be ruined.
I am determined to stick with it as i'm hoping it will all be OK in the end, however if things really are this bad it looks like i may be leaving almost as soon as i joined.
Let's take a deep breath and look at this objectively, guys. The main body of this work was the coding under the covers that would allow us to balance and fine tune properly.
Barring a couple of minor issues that work is complete. And more than that, some of the extreme imbalances of the past are now gone.
No doubt there are issues that need to be attended to but since when has that ever not been the case? When is that never the case in any non-trivial MMO? What's important is that we can now move forward with a system that is much easier for us to manage.
Put your hand up if you thought that there would never be any more patches have NC2.2 was launched, and that the game would be perfectly balanced; "finished". Of course there will be patches. We will continue to work to improve the game but should we hold back from removing the massive imbalance that exists now until everyone's happy? No, because that time will never come. How many games have you seen go into an endless beta phase, never to be completed to everyone's satisfaction (or even be released at all)? Too many times.
We know there's still work to be done, and I can assure you that it's being done. We know this is going to be a big upheaval for everyone, let's face it it's the biggest change since launch, but it's time we bit the bullet and worked together to move forward, and we can only do that once everyone's focussed on the same goal.
Give it a try, eh?
N
Give it a try, eh?
N
No. You don't get it at all.
This is a game that players PAY to play. You're pushing a beta onto PAYING players. The PAYING players don't want this beta yet. They want the beta on the TEST server, for more TESTING.
You will kill Neocron if you do this and even you've got to know it.
There will be another test patch before release and the big remaining issues are being dealt with as I type.
N
Durandal|AI
01-03-07, 17:01
short Q
you want to get back old players?
or do you want to get new players?
because "new" players will quit after one day - they cant lvl with that enviroment settings.. so it should get a rework BEFORE evo2.2 gets released
There will be another test patch before release and the big remaining issues are being dealt with as I type.
N
(( I'm arguing with a mod on the forums :D ))
The issue is, lets say you get all the issues dealt with by this patch and by the time I finish this post it's up and running on TS.
That's STILL NOT ENOUGH TIME. Under a week to test a major patch is idiocy, even in the past KK has never pushed something as untested as this out.
I honestly feel like you (KK) got mad that enough players aren't testing 2.2, so you're throwing a temper tantrum by throwing 2.2 onto retail.
Just push it back.
Barring a couple of minor issues that work is complete. And more than that, some of the extreme imbalances of the past are now gone.
I understand that from a business perspective almost all MMO companies release before they "should" be in the eyes of the players.
However many aspects of the game on the test server are still not playable, before announcing release the major issues such as PvE balance with how long it's taking to kill mobs is something all would consider extremely important.
Announcing a release at this stage really was throwing the community in at the deep end and causing a very understandable level of panic for the community.
wow 2.2 sounds kind of sketchy. KK i hope you realize that this is probably your last chance to bring people back to this game. Please take the time to do it right. They will wait!
Just listen to us this one time FFS :mad:
There will be another test patch before release and the big remaining issues are being dealt with as I type.
N
By that you mean marketing/advertising?
What about marketing? You are effectively made a new game, give 1 month free playing time and you are NOT going to advertise this???? You plan blowing this one time chance away? Come on what is the real reasons for the rush? Jesus.. give it 30 days of advertising in mmorpg, it deserves it..
Usually in an MMO it gets rushed because the communit is rushing it all and going mad, we are doing the opposite and giving you the chance to have much more time and make it as good as it can get. Advertise, itron out the bugs and fixes.
We dont mind waiting!
Actually, I am gifting Nidhogg the Best Facom Hammer money can buy to delay release :p
Perhaps it might be worth saving all the hysteria until after we have seen what has been changed going from patch 165 to retail. I find it hard to believe that they would have chosen to leave the PvE as it currently stands since it is just so drastically wrong (hopefully kk don't prove me wrong...). Sure we might well be paying for 2.2 beta, but hell, you could argue that nc has always been in a beta state since it's first release and that hasn't stopped the core community from playing has it.
I guess I just think that with the pitifully small amount of people using the test server, kk and indeed ourselves as a community won't fully appreciate all the changes involved (and indeed any problems with balance) until 2.2 is rolled out for real on the retail servers. It's gonna be one hell of an upheaval, and if kk don't make an effort to patch things rapidly during the initial weeks upon any glaring problems being identified, it could all go horribly tits up. But I for one am genuinely excited about the release. nc 2.2 looks set to be the closest to how I imagined nc being back during the open beta.
And just think, no more apu+ppu dominance :cool:
At least can we have the neocronstruct with ALL the npc's the first few hours ? :p:p
Hey Nidhoqq,
can you just give me the name of the person(s) hwo have desited to launch Evo 2.2 so early on march 7th?
You know i can do a litte bit Vodoo and i am looking forward to let these people die in agony when i start punishing their litte puppets that i will hace made.
Greatings Rascil
Hey Nidhoqq,
can you just give me the name of the person(s) hwo have desited to launch Evo 2.2 so early on march 7th?
You know i can do a litte bit Vodoo and i am looking forward to let these people die in agony when i start punishing their litte puppets that i will hace made.
Greatings Rascil
You scare Cracker :(
There will be another test patch before release and the big remaining issues are being dealt with as I type.
N
I like neocron Nidhogg, and I hope Reakktors making the right choice, like I said before if they don't do something it's another nail in the coffin, and this could be the last one!
Remember the ol sayin though "Can't please everyone, but pissing em all of is as easy as pie!"
If nidhogg is saying we are just scared, i answer yes, and that's well-justified.
I'm really scared !
I think KK may just have an Ace up their sleeves for this, well in their case a nine. But im sure that they have something that got the tiny KK office excited.is it silly to wish the 2.2 on TS is a hoax? and the 2.2 we're getting is ubar and perfect and will bring back all the decent old players (new players never remove le's and quit after a few weeks - hint: nc's pvm sucks pvp was awesome tho..)
Give it a try, eh?
NNo. You don't get it at all.
This is a game that players PAY to play. You're pushing a beta onto PAYING players. The PAYING players don't want this beta yet. They want the beta on the TEST server, for more TESTING.
You will kill Neocron if you do this and even you've got to know it.
QFT, sorry nid but my account went inactive a few days before paypal arrived (not sure why) and i've been playing on a mate's 2nd account since, i was intending on reactivating my account, and a mate of mine's old account.. luckily i haven't wasted my cash, i'll try 2.2 retail but i doubt i'll carry on, for a start most of my clan are quitting too.. then there's the fact that 2.2 isn't neocron
Barring a couple of minor issues that work is complete. And more than that, some of the extreme imbalances of the past are now gone.
Oh come on Nid. Yes, 2.2 in inevitably going to hit retail before its perfect. But as it is, its going to hit retail before its playable or even remotley balanced. This upcoming patch will not fix all the major issues, especially as it is tacally problems which there is no clear solution to. So the attempted solution could well be a disaster. And really, if there was an ultimate patch to fix all the problems on the test server, why didn't we see it earlier.
OK, so monks aren't silly overpowered any more. Unfortunatley, droners now are. There's still a big different between the PPU bonus monks and tanks recieve, and the PPU bonus PEs and Spies receive. PEs hopped up on drugs with pistols still rule the roost when it comes to one on ones. HC PEs and Melee PEs are now completely useless. PvE is a long, long way from balanced, especially as it hasn't been tested well enough. Vehicles are garbage for anything bar transport and some are still impossible for a player to ever use.
Does 2.2 need to hit retail before everybody is happy with it? Yes. Does it need to wait until it feels like its got past an alpha built on somebody else's game engine? YES.
Seriouusly, what were KK's objectives with "Balancing"? Because I challenge you to state them, and get any player agreement that more than perhaps one of those objectives have met. The ultimate goal of all weapons being equally useful and class balance is a long, long way off - there are about 5 guns worth using and the classes are nothing like equal. Meet your objectives, or at least the majority, then release. Don't release and then hope to meet the objectives at some later date, because players won't stand for it, and we all know that programming resources are likley to be diverted to Black Prophecy.
Lifewaster
01-03-07, 19:59
Well patch 166 is out now see here (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138158)
6 days to go..... if we get a patch per day until then things could be a lot better
Well patch 166 is out now see here (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138158)
6 days to go..... if we get a patch per day until then things could be a lot better
Guess KK have made their minds up, may as well pitch in.
I'm going to go and try leveling a noob there once I have my work done.
Lifewaster
01-03-07, 20:05
Guess KK have made their minds up, may as well pitch in.
I'm going to go and try leveling a noob there once I have my work done.
Same, its a 1 hour sever downtime atm, so after that I'll check out the noob lvling again.
Several of the fixes sound good thou. Implants, APUs, Mobs
The thing is, pushing the release back to the end of March wouldn't be the end of the world, and I feel like most of the community would take that a bit better than the exactly 7 days notice we currently have.
Oh well, I suppose they are determined to march on...
Put your hand up if you thought that there would never be any more patches have NC2.2 was launched, and that the game would be perfectly balanced; "finished". Of course there will be patches. We will continue to work to improve the game but should we hold back from removing the massive imbalance that exists now until everyone's happy? No, because that time will never come.
Barring a couple of minor issues that work is complete. And more than that, some of the extreme imbalances of the past are now gone.The patching you're speaking of in this case is unneccessary patching. It should be done on the test server and remain there so paying customers aren't forced to put up with a broken system until however long it takes to resolve the remaining issues. That's without thinking of how many new bugs that will be introduced with each patch, resulting in more downtime and more problems/general annoyance for the said paying customers. It seems someone in charge has really lost the plot here. Reakktor can't just destroy the service people are paying for.
Don't release and then hope to meet the objectives at some later date, because players won't stand for itThat's exactly what I mean when I'm talking about unneccessary patching. Perhaps Reakktor should think back to 2.1 - old players returned and were extremely disappointed because of the gameplay destroying bugs that occurred (reload problem, database screw up - two of them I think actually, can't truly remember), resulting in them leaving after the free gametime period was over.
From the very beginning I could see low and mid-level PvE activity was going to be a big problem. Immediately it was clear (and I mentioned it several times) that all everyone cared about was testing their high level and generally capped characters, with artifact items/rares (that in the case of the Crossbow, Ceres Pistol and Rifle, artifact stats are unattainable unless it's been changed too, haven't checked). There's still under a week to go but I'll be surprised if all those problems are resolved by then.
New or existing players not being able to level up their characters properly because of current problems should be at least one of the many good reasons not to move things to retail just yet. This most certainly isn't a minor problem, it's a hugely devastating one.
it's time we bit the bullet and worked together to move forward, and we can only do that once everyone's focussed on the same goalIt's not often I agree with you but today's the lucky day. Those words are absolutely true. ;) It's about time Reakktor bit the bullet and worked with and listened to the community for once, especially on this matter. It's a shame the majority of the community want Neocron to thrive until it's no longer the only cyberpunk MMORPG on the market worth playing, and Reakktor seemingly don't. Why else are they making yet another stupid decision that would drive customers away?
PayPal has only just been added as a payment method and people already returned because of it. Don't throw the progress so far down the toilet.
The patching you're speaking of in this case is unneccessary patching. It should be done on the test server and remain there so paying customers aren't forced to put up with a broken system until however long it takes to resolve the remaining issues. That's without thinking of how many new bugs that will be introduced with each patch, resulting in more downtime and more problems/general annoyance for the said paying customers. It seems someone in charge has really lost the plot here. Reakktor can't just destroy the service people are paying for.
That's exactly what I mean when I'm talking about unneccessary patching. Perhaps Reakktor should think back to 2.1 - old players returned and were extremely disappointed because of the gameplay destroying bugs that occurred (reload problem, database screw up - two of them I think actually, can't truly remember), resulting in them leaving after the free gametime period was over.
From the very beginning I could see low and mid-level PvE activity was going to be a big problem. Immediately it was clear (and I mentioned it several times) that all everyone cared about was testing their high level and generally capped characters, with artifact items/rares (that in the case of the Crossbow, Ceres Pistol and Rifle, artifact stats are unattainable unless it's been changed too, haven't checked). There's still under a week to go but I'll be surprised if all those problems are resolved by then.
New or existing players not being able to level up their characters properly because of current problems should be at least one of the many good reasons not to move things to retail just yet. This most certainly isn't a minor problem, it's a hugely devastating one.
It's not often I agree with you but today's the lucky day. Those words are absolutely true. ;) It's about time Reakktor bit the bullet and worked with and listened to the community for once, especially on this matter. It's a shame the majority of the community want Neocron to thrive until it's no longer the only cyberpunk MMORPG on the market worth playing, and Reakktor seemingly don't. Why else are they making yet another stupid decision that would drive customers away?
PayPal has only just been added as a payment method and people already returned because of it. Don't throw the progress so far down the toilet.
+1 kthx.
Nid, you've gotta see the difference between rushing a game because customers are impatient, and NOT rushing a game because the customers want it in the best possible shape it can be.
Please don't make this big mistake. Everyone here at least, wants you guys to make some fucking money off this game for once! All everyone wants in return for paying KK is the ability to enjoy a game that doesn't have any lame, shouldn't-be-there bugs in it.
This is Neocron's "Alamo", in a way. This is the final shot for so many people. This will be their last stand. Please don't mess this one up. :(
ive been messing around on the test server and i actually like it, the new weapons are cool... took abit of time to work out all the new armor settings and spells but over all i liked it... only thing that needs to happen now is introduce more quests and stuff for low lvl new players as when they have completed mr jones quests thewre doesnt seem to be much to do if you dont have a clue where anything is. break.
Bullshit. it's not even close to ready
Also, have you considered that all these peiople rushing back to enjoy their 30 days of free gametime won't be experiencing 30 days of Neocron as it alway shsould have been, balanced and open ended. Instead, they will be discovering "30days of NC - we fixed some stuff and now need to balance it. YOu are our free testers."
KK seriously DONT RELEASE IT.
Obligatory post.. Push it back a little, please
It's nice to see the FULL community making a stand but as always KK are NOT listening
I can't be arsed to comment anymore on this if KK still won't fucking listen to their PAYING community
Meow ! :p
Ive played this game since beta and I quit about a year or two. I recently started playing again and found out that its still a good game, not near what it was in the past but non the less a good game. If this many people are telling you not to release 2.2 then dont release 2.2, Its that simple... Im pretty confident that if you release this "upgrade" it will kill the game to the extent that nc2 killed nc1 (Look at your population base).
Seraphin[69]
01-03-07, 22:18
Look like I won't get enought time to have fun with EVO 2.1 one more time...
What a pity...
note for later : if I want to ruin a project, do what KK did
This is getting silly now. There are people reading this thread with no idea what the current status is and getting carried away. Go check out the test server (there are already very positive comments on the patch thread) and report any issues in the balancing forum. Thanks.
N
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