View Full Version : Few Neocron issues
CritiNator
12-02-07, 11:00
Hello,
I try to gather here, with help of other runners, the most needed fixes and things that WE really care.
Little about me:
I started playing when nc hit retail. Since then i have played for about 2 years. I have been offline for months and then came back. I love this game, even it has its faults.
To the point..
All info here is what i feel and what i have heard. So this is NOT 100% accurate. I need YOUR help, to make this more accurate.
Few things about "minds" of KK and runners:
KK:
Graphics needs update
PvP needs huge changes in order to be balanced
Uses all resources to 2.2
Runners:
Graphics are fine, now that we dont use the Dx7
Syncronizing, Free <- Fre seems to occur mostly at syncronizing
Are afraid of 2.2 and same time curious.
Both:
More items ( Every tank has CS on his hands, every APU has HL and so on. PE and SPY has good variety of weapons and setups)
PvP Needs something, none knows what.
Evolution 2.2 seems to be good. Most of ppl agree that we need update that changes the game. Update that we will remember.
Somethings that NEEDS to be fixed in order for neocron to really evolve and to get more players in this game.
1: Syncronizing
2: Fatal runtime error
3: Rubberband effect
4: Syncing with vehicle is PITA if thers 2+ runners
List could be continued, these are not in any order, its just list. All these problems are related to netcode. KK cant say, its our computers if 100% of players get these and are used to these.
Its wierd, my ping is always over 40 but under 100. Today morning, 1% players online. I tryed to zone to abandoned sector 5, Fre + 5 logins then i managed to get other side.
Updates that we need:
1: 2.2 fixes lots of issues, like nib buffing, monk o cron..
2: PSI boosters, drugs and other stacable items, should be stacked in QB also.
3: Syncronizing :D
4: Its all bout Syncronizing
No matter what stuff KK adds in game. No matter how beatifull this game is. If new player crashes 5 times /day atleast and syncs more than you can count, he stops playing.
Im sure that i speak for many runners here when i say this:
KK: What do you have to say, about Syncronizing that has continued since retail.
We need answer for that!
Runners:
Let your voice out. KK knows that syncs are annoying and exist but are not doing anything. State your opinion here, few words about your experiences with FRE and syncs.
PS: Please note, that this is all from my mind but it is based on true story, by KK. - Neocron
Thanks for reading, hope you participate and hope that some big dev has little time to answer.
- Crit
If you have played since retail (even though your join date says 2005 ) you would know but theres a Balancing thing going on at the min on the test server where most of the bugs you mentioned are being fixed ish.
The Graphics are having a new update after the test server.
So if i was you mate i would wait till they have done with the test server then come on the forums and start shouting what needs to be fixed and what needs to be done about the fre's and ect.
Just chill dude and wait and see what the futrue brings.
NAPPER
Sorry one more thing if you read these's forums alot more you would have most of the answer's that you seek.
1: Syncronizing
2: Fatal runtime error
3: Rubberband effect
4: Syncing with vehicle is PITA if thers 2+ runners
Afaik, all these issues originate from the same problem, the crappy netcode. I don't think that KK fully understands the netcode/core they are working with, since I figure it would be alot easier to fix something they would have made. Of course I could be wrong, and I would like some official input on this if possible. They can fiddle around everything else, but the engine remains the same, and unless the engine/netcode is fixed or rewritten, the problems you mentioned will stay, as they have stayed for ages.
Somethings that NEEDS to be fixed in order for neocron to really evolve and to get more players in this game.
1: Syncronizing
2: Fatal runtime error
3: Rubberband effect
4: Syncing with vehicle is PITA if thers 2+ runners
List could be continued, these are not in any order, its just list. All these problems are related to netcode. KK cant say, its our computers if 100% of players get these and are used to these.
Its wierd, my ping is always over 40 but under 100. Today morning, 1% players online. I tryed to zone to abandoned sector 5, Fre + 5 logins then i managed to get other side.
Updates that we need:
1: 2.2 fixes lots of issues, like nib buffing, monk o cron..
2: PSI boosters, drugs and other stacable items, should be stacked in QB also.
3: Syncronizing
4: Its all bout Syncronizing
No matter what stuff KK adds in game. No matter how beatifull this game is. If new player crashes 5 times /day atleast and syncs more than you can count, he stops playing.
Agree 100%
awkward silence
12-02-07, 12:23
I want cities to be raidable.
I still get a hard on from when i remember the 80/80 faction guards. Those were the days :cool:
I remember sneaky spies stealthed in and shot people with their rifles & drones in Plaza 1. Those were the days :cool:
Dribble Joy
12-02-07, 13:41
Indeed, bring back lvl 80 guards, maybe make DoY guards/copbots lvl 90-100. Normal dmg, no para. May stop a couple of random pkers, but not a full raid team.
Zone bonuses for defenders would help too (based on zone, faction, lvl and epic).
CritiNator
12-02-07, 15:04
If you have played since retail (even though your join date says 2005 ) you would know but theres a Balancing thing going on at the min on the test server where most of the bugs you mentioned are being fixed ish.
The Graphics are having a new update after the test server.
So if i was you mate i would wait till they have done with the test server then come on the forums and start shouting what needs to be fixed and what needs to be done about the fre's and ect.
Just chill dude and wait and see what the futrue brings.
NAPPER
Sorry one more thing if you read these's forums alot more you would have most of the answer's that you seek.
Hi,
I preordered neocron 2003? When it hit retail. My friend played in beta so i got interested in it. However, i could never write anything to forums, becouse for some unknown reason i could not register back then. We played for bout year then, then we left for sometime etc. As i said, i have played for 2 years i think.. bought gametime for 2½ year..
You however have joined 2005.. So you dont know that these same sync problems have been here from the beta. Some say, that neocron is still in beta.. thou its open and has montly fee :D
I read forums yes, but you missed my point in this post. I wanna hear what KK has to say about this and i try to get more ppl to post here to say something about these problems... Like addess or something.
And what bugs i mentioned that are fixed? Nib buff? I already stated that its being fixed... Theres NOTHING been done about syncronizing.
EDIT:
And FYI none need graphic update. That time could be used with netcode.
If you REALLY take alook at 2.2, it wont really fix anything it just introduces lots of new stuff that needs more tweaking and so on.
Peace
- Crit
CritiNator
12-02-07, 15:11
Afaik, all these issues originate from the same problem, the crappy netcode. I don't think that KK fully understands the netcode/core they are working with, since I figure it would be alot easier to fix something they would have made. Of course I could be wrong, and I would like some official input on this if possible. They can fiddle around everything else, but the engine remains the same, and unless the engine/netcode is fixed or rewritten, the problems you mentioned will stay, as they have stayed for ages.
Yup yup. These are indeed result of crappy netcode. But it can be redone. It cost money, yeah.. and work hours, but it would be awesome. I played wow for bout 20 days got bored to it, but it never crashed.. atleast not becouse of game.. same with Anarchy online.. Ultima online.. Just neocron.
But what can you do. Only FPs online and i love this!
KK needs to get a new engine.A new engine is an all fix to-
1.Graphics
2.Less Fre's
3.Less Synches
Things that will get worse
1.More people will arive.
From the looks of it,im oretty sure KK dosent like people.
CritiNator
12-02-07, 21:17
KK needs to get a new engine.A new engine is an all fix to-
1.Graphics
2.Less Fre's
3.Less Synches
Things that will get worse
1.More people will arive.
From the looks of it,im oretty sure KK dosent like people.
Yeah. Imagine Source engine in neocron.. *drool*
Twilight wars was atleast supposed to use it. If that game ever lands retail. KK HAVE to do something. Now theres no competition so no need to really think about it.
Hope that some dev would take a look at this topic and say few offial words about sync and FRE problems!
Runners:
Graphics are fine, now that we dont use the Dx7
Syncronizing, Free <- Fre seems to occur mostly at syncronizing
Are afraid of 2.2 and same time curious.
Both:
More items ( Every tank has CS on his hands, every APU has HL and so on. PE and SPY has good variety of weapons and setups)
PvP Needs something, none knows what.
Evolution 2.2 seems to be good. Most of ppl agree that we need update that changes the game. Update that we will remember.
Somethings that NEEDS to be fixed in order for neocron to really evolve and to get more players in this game.
1: Syncronizing
2: Fatal runtime error
3: Rubberband effect
4: Syncing with vehicle is PITA if thers 2+ runners
List could be continued, these are not in any order, its just list. All these problems are related to netcode. KK cant say, its our computers if 100% of players get these and are used to these.
Its wierd, my ping is always over 40 but under 100. Today morning, 1% players online. I tryed to zone to abandoned sector 5, Fre + 5 logins then i managed to get other side.
Updates that we need:
1: 2.2 fixes lots of issues, like nib buffing, monk o cron..
2: PSI boosters, drugs and other stacable items, should be stacked in QB also.
3: Syncronizing :D
4: Its all bout Syncronizing
No matter what stuff KK adds in game. No matter how beatifull this game is. If new player crashes 5 times /day atleast and syncs more than you can count, he stops playing.
Agree. Agree. Agree. Agree. Lets see what happens. IF happens.
Seraphin[69]
12-02-07, 22:13
I agree to that but the 2.2
I hate what neocron is going to be after the update !
CritiNator
12-02-07, 22:47
']I agree to that but the 2.2
I hate what neocron is going to be after the update !
Hows that? Atleast nib buffing has been noticed and the fact that monks ( APU ) are overpowered.
1: 2.2 fixes lots of issues, like nib buffing, monk o cron..I never saw nib buffing as a "problem", it required good timing, so it was never just an instant "har har you're dead" technique, that's what people use Revenges for. ;) I think the only people who mostly complained about that are the PPU's that have been out-timed and killed by someone embarassingly. :p
The Graphics are having a new update after the test server.How long will that take I wonder? The question that always pops up in my head is what are the graphics people (if any) doing now? o_O Doubt there will be any official answer, but I'm guessing they won't be trying to find the source of the almighty FRE's. ;)
Indeed, bring back lvl 80 guards, maybe make DoY guards/copbots lvl 90-100. Normal dmg, no para. May stop a couple of random pkers, but not a full raid team.Sex, same thing that's been ignored for a long time, probably years. No - this answer depending on how many guards will be grouped together in the sector. Otherwise it's just an unfair bonus to DoY. Still think level 80 or less is a better all-round figure. They should only be strong enough to make you run away after a brief moment. Enemy cities should just be made raidable quite easily, but by more than just the typical PPU buttplugged zone whoring activity that we've seen for years. Players should be doing the defending rather than spamming a zillion guards that almost instantly gangbang you with both Parashock and lots of damage, in nearly all the sectors.
Bozz-Von Mel
13-02-07, 05:44
What do you all want KK to do? Do you want to wait 3 years while they write new netcode? Not to mention the thousands they will need for funding.
CritiNator
13-02-07, 10:12
What do you all want KK to do? Do you want to wait 3 years while they write new netcode? Not to mention the thousands they will need for funding.
Well, they changed dx7 to dx9 while we played nc1. Its not like its impossible to do.. its just that for somereason they wont.
It would make neocron totally new game, if all features introduced and netcode would work as intented. I love it now, i can play it, but its the others who already left nc becouse nothing was ever done to bugs and the first timers who crash all the time and leave the game becouse of it.
It can be done. Yes it takes money but its worth it.
All I ever seem to see when everyone mentions using a new engine is "it takes money" or "omg lots of money". There are quite a few good open-source (and free) engines out there waiting to be worked with. Irrlicht (http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/) seems to be a quick and nice example of that, and unlike the also open-source engine Neocron was built upon, Genesis3D that is (from what has been gathered), you don't need to pay $10,000 for "A commercial, closed source, no splash screen license". But fair enough you need a few people to start learning the API/whatnot before doing the modifications, and those people need to be paid for their work, but it doesn't need to cost as much as people keep thinking it does.
It takes time to develop a new engine, that usually the biggest resource eating in any software product. If you are being paid, time = money.
Neocron's graphic engine isn't the most spectacular engine in the world, it just needs some small updates to keep it upto date, like increasing the texture size on the mobs. (Just look at a Decayed brute to see how ugly it looks, and the Nightmare which looks fantastic.)
I don't know what Netcode updates have been done for 2.2. I still see the clipping issue is still there, but netcode is the last thing I've paid any attention to on test. So maybe the next thing after 2.2 should be getting the netcode rocksolid.
CritiNator
13-02-07, 13:00
I have played quite few hours at test server with my friends already and we still get the same syncronizing and fatal errors there. Cant see any difference.. So i think, they are not really paying attention to those in 2.2..
My opinion on this is that the graphics engine is a little dated but it doesnt bother me... the world and atmosphere that the neocron world is based on makes up for that no problems...
I think they should work much more on stability (fre's,netcode,syncing etc etc)
And once/if they do that start doing what some of the bigger mmo's do (yes and that includes wow)... Give us more content, new areas, more mobs, more weapon types, implant types etc... make it so people can be different - its what a lot of poeple like to do.
BUT ONLY ONCE ITS STABLE! :D
Why add nanites to 2.2 when so many people still fre/sync etc etc... 2 possible reasons I think...
Fixing Fre's / sync etc is a very major fix for the engine - thats why its never been fixed in all these years and...
1. They dont have anyone that can actually do it - programmingwise
2. They are worried becuase if they do it... its more likely to get worse before it gets better as they test it... (but hey thats what test servers are for!)
Seriously I belive that if Kk tryd and fixed the FREs/Syncs then it would introduce multiple bigger problems like not being able to stay in game for atleast 30 mins, Any1 ever played Face of Mankind?
All im sayign is Everytime KK try and fix something they either make the problem worse or create 10 new problems somewhere completely different, So I think that we should all get used to them, as many people have and live with em, because tbh they aint going newhere.
Thank you for your input. We appreciate it very much if our players think about how to improve the game. Of course we are always eager to create the gameplay as enjoyable and comfortable as possible.
Regarding your suggestions about a new gfx engine and a new netcode I can just say that a complete rework of these two main core features would mean a complete rework of the whole game, which is simply not an option.
lol in other words stop whining and get used to the constant lag, syncs, and fre's :lol:
Im inpressed that we got an offcial reply, well done KK you are actually starting to become good! And Cracker is not easily impressed!
Dribble Joy
13-02-07, 17:35
No - this answer depending on how many guards will be grouped together in the sector. Otherwise it's just an unfair bonus to DoY.
I was thinking that like NC, there should be lvl 80 faction guards around for the most part, and DoY guards should take up a similar role as copbots in DoY, less about, city entrances and central sectors.
I would have to agree with silent...
Even though it isnt what I was hoping for... at least we got a reply saying so...
Seraphin[69]
13-02-07, 17:57
lol in other words stop whining and get used to the constant lag, syncs, and fre's :lol:
I greed to that a long time ago but why making such an evo (2.2) when all what players asked were more weapons, a bit of balancing and contents ? I'll never get it till I die I guess !
:p
CritiNator
13-02-07, 18:35
Thank you for your input. We appreciate it very much if our players think about how to improve the game. Of course we are always eager to create the gameplay as enjoyable and comfortable as possible.
Regarding your suggestions about a new gfx engine and a new netcode I can just say that a complete rework of these two main core features would mean a complete rework of the whole game, which is simply not an option.
First.. thanks for writing here.
Its not the graphics that are problem really. People still play nethack and other ascii graphic games just becouse they are so good. Neocron is good. Graphics are fine, i dont really pay attention to graphics, other than monsters.. very little thou.
NC has one good thing in its netcode. It does not care about ping very much. No matter how much you ping, still you wont "lag". You can still fight and others can hit you.
However, syncronizing is big issue and im sure that FRE's are related to that same thing.
So.. SnowCrash, are you saying that KK is never EVER even TRYING to fix syncronizing? I mean, how bout evo 2.3 to be just this. No more items, no more areas, just better netcode? I wanna hear more about this and im sure others want too.
I hope you participate this discussion,
-Crit
CritiNator
14-02-07, 14:10
More little things about Netcode issues ( very likely atleast )..
Any of you, have to sometimes press enter many times at logins screen, before you actually enter. Theres no warning, no nothing. It just connects to server and then returns to login.
Any of you need to relog sometimes multiple times, becouse you get 50/50 or black sync?
Any of you need to relog again, becouse you are in some other runner that does not even exist on your account? You can see his setup, inventory, mails, everything, untill you zone or relog.
All these little things are SO common, that you dont even notice these anymore, but what happens to new player when this kind of things happen?
Devs, please, dont ask me to reinstall or anything, it does not work and everyone knows it. So how bout VERY official statement about Syncronizing problems? What are you planning for it and when? As you know, customers never care things like "it cost too much" or "its too hard" or "Im lazy, do it your self" kinda answers. We pay for game, so we are kinda like investors, if you need more investors hear the community ( Witch has improved very much. Its very nice to see devs on boards occasionally ) and you get more!
I certainly would like to hear more devs in this topic!
- Crit
Answer us KK!You forgot the "magic word" ;)
--------------
I personally suppose, that KK cares about the "sync problems". Let's see it from the other side: They know, that some of us are annoyed about that phenomenon. And a company needs satisfied customers in order to survive. So therefore they surely had or have a look on it.
How do you say "now" in German :p
How do you say "now" in German :pgerman word for "now" = "jetzt". But i wont tell you, how to express the supposed question in an inpolite way, where "now" will be translated in another way. :cool:
CritiNator
16-02-07, 18:51
I know i know.. im full of questions..
New Q: SnowCrash ( and other devs and GM's ), how much you spend time actually playing Neocron? Dont you ever crash or sync?
lol? They are playing WoW -.-
lol? They are playing WoW -.-
Yes. I'd place my money on that aswell. :lol:
CritiNator
19-02-07, 18:06
lol? They are playing WoW -.-
Heh, i hope this is not the case :O
CritiNator
20-02-07, 20:12
No official answer? I really hope some dev would use few minutes to give us answer that stops all the rumors and talking about the subject. I know that im moving at very sensitive area, but still.. we need answers!
-Crit
CritiNator
25-02-07, 10:26
Is it REALLY that hard, to give answer to question that affects us all?
Its sad..
Ill continue playing no matter what! But i still wanna hear it, from devs!
Peace
-Crit
We have invested a huge amount of time in minimising these problems over the years, and with a good deal of success I might had, but we won't ever eliminate them entirely until every player is sat next to the servers and connected via a LAN. The problem is that so-called sync issues don't have a common cause that can be fixed; there are a number of causes that are entirely outside of our control.
Having said that we will always continue to look into ways to improve the situation where possible.
N
The problem is that so-called sync issues don't have a common cause that can be fixed; there are a number of causes that are entirely outside of our control.
Having said that we will always continue to look into ways to improve the situation where possible.
They can be fixed. It's just a matter on how far Reakktor are willing to go.
Would be nice to see them fixed, it all depends on the resources that KK can throw at the problem. Currently they're mainly focused on balancing in 2.2, never know what we may see in the future though.
They can be fixed. It's just a matter on how far Reakktor are willing to go.
No, they can't. (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138041)
N
No, they can't. (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=138041)
N
So all in all... Reakktor has no idea how to "reinitialize" synchronizing after a heavy packet loss?
If your network connection isn't behaving then there's no "reinitialize" in the world will save you. The best we could do in a situation like that is to put up an error message and just not let him play at all in which case he'd still be complaining. Honestly, this is why we stay away from threads like this - they're no win situations. You'd think that no other MMO suffers from network problems.
N
Of course there is. I don't know exactly where in the synchronizing routine the client starts looping endlessly but I got my ideas.
I'm no TCP/IP expert nor am I an expert in netcode but I've worked enough with TCP to got some clues on how to work around eventual problems.
If client zones, the server wants to synchronize with the client. First the client sends checksums on the content that is going to be loaded to prevent cheating (I hope this is the case). When the content verifying is complete, the server is going to send entity data to the client so the client can position every moving object correctly (since the game is not communicating with absolute positions but relative positions this is a must). If there is a packet loss, some of this data never reach the other end and the synchronization goes corrupt. The server and client should know if there were data loss since they verify if data was received, if they don't verify it the server/client resends the data. (TCP/IP have a built in feature that resends lost packets but this doesn't even help sometimes so manual data verifying is essential)
Why does Neocron loop in synchronization? Is it because the server or client never tell eachother wether a packet was received or not and the client is then stuck in "awaiting synchronization information"? I have no idea, Reakktor should have though.
Simply put, the server can easily just try to re-establish a synchronization if the first one didn't work out. The client/server doesn't even seem to try reinitialization.
But yeah, I'm not going to bother arguing about synchronizations - I've said my 50 cents. And as you said, reakktor try to stay away from these threads for a purpose. I wonder why :rolleyes:
I guess you could get around them unplugging the network cable too? When the connection is bad, the connection is bad.
N
I'm no TCP/IP expert nor am I an expert in netcode but I've worked enough with TCP to got some clues on how to work around eventual problems.
I think Neocron uses UDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol), not TCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Control_Protocol), and that protocol is more prone to disruption by congestion/faulty nodes along the route.
I think Neocron uses UDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol), not TCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Control_Protocol), and that protocol is more prone to disruption by congestion/faulty nodes along the route.
UDP is being used to send and receive data while you are in-game since it's faster than TCP/IP. I don't know if it's being used in synchronizations - if it is being used there then it's no wonder synchronizations never ends. UDP isn't a reliable protocol because you just send data over and pray that the data got transfered hence it's only good if you are only going to send data one way and that it doesn't matter much if a few packets got lost in the process (games and maybe other areas). TCP on the other hand does handshaking, keep packet numbers in it's headers (good way of tracking if packets were lost) etc.
Neocron 2 uses both UDP and TCP. If I remember it correctly it uses TCP for chat and maybe some other stuff.
I guess you could get around them unplugging the network cable too? When the connection is bad, the connection is bad.
NThen KK's definition of "bad" is more stringent than XBOX Live, WoW, EQ II, anything from NCSoft, untold numbers of FPSes, and a wide range of other applications that function over the Internet.
Ever since I can remember, NC has always behaved poorly across my non-Speakeay connections. The only major difference between my Speakeasy DSL line and non-Speakeasy connections (Verizon DSL, Cablevision) is that Speakeasy guarantees I'm two hops from "The Internet", meaning I pass through a grand total of one Speakeasy internal router before I hit a router with a link to "The Internet".
Verizon and Cablevision have me bounce around inside their routed network for a few hops before leaving for The Internet. This shouldn't matter during the hours I play (wee hours of the morning, EST, with no other network activity).
Virtually every other game which relies on The Internet works fine with standard US ISPs. NC? NC is the only misbehaving MMO I'm aware of.
It's fine if KK wants to live in denial. You've been doing it for almost six years now, telling everyone that it's bad networking on our end. I can play fine so it doesn't bother me much. I work on an enterprise-sized network for a living. Occasionally, I wish I could tell people with latency/dropping apps, "bad network connection" and wash my hands of the situation, but I don't have that luxury. It must be nice.
CritiNator
27-02-07, 16:42
If your network connection isn't behaving then there's no "reinitialize" in the world will save you. The best we could do in a situation like that is to put up an error message and just not let him play at all in which case he'd still be complaining. Honestly, this is why we stay away from threads like this - they're no win situations. You'd think that no other MMO suffers from network problems.
N
OMG! So after all these years.. ALL these syncs.. You blame our ISP?
Correct me if i got your post wrong, but you are saying that neocron syncs and crashes becouse our internet is laggy?
I try to stay calm.. ok.
How come i can play wow and UO ( witch is over 10 years old ) and nothing makes em crash. No noticeable ( word?) lag or anything for years.. But in neocron..
Im NOT saying this would be easy thing to do. Not at all. Im sure that its HUGE fix. But everyone here knows, that in order for neocron to grow to 1000+ online populations.. it really needs to be done.
I thank you, for answering this topic.. But but..
You still cant blame ISP for these syncs. Its not OUR net that causes problems.
Im noob coder, but i have got my hands dirty on networks. And im wondering same as others here. WHEN NC notices that runner is zoneing and he just keeps syncronizing, why not try again? What harm could it do?
if ( runner.Syncronizing )
{
runner.SyncAgain()
// tadaa
}
More like pseudo code. ( Im SURE that NC coders already know this, becouse im crappy coder ).
I know it and you know it.. We need the last piece of info still.
Becouse problem is NOT our ISP ( we know this, becouse other games work just fine ), the problem is in NC. Cant we get Dev to say, "I know that our code has some flaws, but in current situation its quite impossible to fix. Thus i think we are never going to fix it".
Nothing more, nothing less. Do we just have to continue to "live" with it? Among new players?
Then theres still FRE. None has discussed that either. Normal player ( ask ANYONE ) crashes about 1-30 times in 10 hour session ( OP wars, trade skilling, droneing.. no matter what you do ). So does Devs play this? Do YOU Nid play this? I dare you to say, do you crash atleast 1 times / 10 hour playtime? Ever? And dont lie :D
I guess you could get around them unplugging the network cable too? When the connection is bad, the connection is bad.
N
However you say this is impossible to be fixed even though there's 100 other mmorpgs with no such problem as this. Allrighty.
I'm not saying it's easy or fast problem to be dealth with. However the game has been retail for 5(6?) years. I wonder what kind of problem in the code could take longer than 5 years to be fixed.
I was hoping that we could get still another answer from staff but it doesn't seem to be coming, which is a shame,
You have already received your answers in this post (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2053863&postcount=23).
if ( runner.Syncronizing )
{
runner.SyncAgain()
// tadaa
}
Will not work lowcodz0rz! ... You forgot the ";" xD
try
while(Runner.Syncronizing) {
Runner.Sync()
};
But, I believe theres not Class / function called "Runner" or "Sync" :p
nyaaarrhhaarrrhaarrr *Insert Psycholaught here*
while(Runner.Syncronizing())
{
Runner.Sync();
}
Potential infinate loops are bad...In fact this sort of code may explain the blacksyncs! :lol:
Dribble Joy
02-03-07, 18:32
Last edited by Brammers : Today at 15:50. Reason: Tidied up incorrect syntax :p but is Syncronizing a property or a function?
Probably both :p.
CritiNator
02-03-07, 23:44
You have already received your answers in this post (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=2053863&postcount=23).
Well, ok then. Ill take that.
Everyone, please note! :o
New players if you are reading this!
Fatal runtime errors wont be fixed ever. Game crashes ( meh ) countless times in day. However, these wont ever get fixed. Problems is in YOUR computer ( or in this case, in my computer ) to be more precise, in your internet connection. KK's connection is great, but for somereason, its limited to LAN.. :confused:
This is how i understand you answers.. Ill continue playing anyway :D
I love this game!
Sad... :(
End of broadcast
-Crit ( Paying Beta tester )
EDIT: Code was not ment to be taken seriously :)
You could however check 5 times for sync then exit.. Thou, it takes bout 30 letters to type.. so.. not going to happen :/
You can only hope for a better tomorrow :angel:
Well the point has been made above...
I'm not exactly an expert on network coding(actually very far from that), but unless it has already been tried .. maybe adding a line that loops the sync process infinitely until it succeeds, as stated above.
Worth a shot...right? ;)
Indeed, bring back lvl 80 guards, maybe make DoY guards/copbots lvl 90-100. Normal dmg, no para. May stop a couple of random pkers, but not a full raid team.
Zone bonuses for defenders would help too (based on zone, faction, lvl and epic).
That would be awesome. Would be cool if a raid team got Plaza under Martial Law. :p
CritiNator
05-03-07, 20:07
Gah, i just cant believe this. I cant stop talking about this.
How can KK say, that its OUR network that is doing this sync thing?
Why there is such thing as "black sync". If it cant connect, just popup error message, "could not initialize connection to server", or something. Right now, i cant even login. I have waited for few minutes between attempts.. I have tryed different characters, nope.. Black sync ftw.
I guess its just my net connection then.
Nid, your post.. Is that official statement? Is that what KK has to say about syncs? .. and FRE?
Customer is always right :)
I'm not saying it's always the network. I'm saying that it will never be the case where network problems can ever be ruled out. Basically, some problems will always happen, like the problem I linked to that was caused by snow.
N
Gah, i just cant believe this. I cant stop talking about this.
How can KK say, that its OUR network that is doing this sync thing? Because, well, technically it is. However, that's because the underlying network protocol that KK uses for NC doesn't deal well with dropped/out of sequence packets. They're supposed to have taken that into account, but apparently not well enough for today's needs.
From what I've read, NC uses UDP as its primary method of communication, falling back on TCP when things really go out of whack. UDP has no guaranteed delivery. It's unreliable by design. It's used when you either don't care if all your packets are delivered (live streaming), want lower latency or lower processing overhead (there's no buffering for reordering packets, nor is there acking in the protocol), or when you want to design your own upper-level reliability (i.e. build your own version of TCP).
The problem is most likely that KK's implementation over UDP does not tolerate dropped (or out of sequence) packets well, if at all. If your ISP steps on UDP (and most oversubscribed ISPs will), then NC has problems.
The best I can tell you is get yourself an ISP connection that places you very close to their Internet peering point and prides themselves on low packet loss. I'm in the USA and I've been using Speakeasy (http://www.speakeasy.org) DSL as my primary Internet connection for going on eight years now. Back in the day, they advertised themselves as being two hops from the Internet, and today that's still true for me - I only hit two Speakeasy routers on the way to www.neocron.com. I've been playing NC since Beta 2 (August, 2001) and over my Speakeasy line I've never had chronic connection issues that weren't related to a problem on KK's end (datacenter, ISP, server performance issues) or a planned maintenance event on Speakeasy's part. The only downside to Speakeasy is the price - it is more expensive than other options (I pay $128/mo), but it is sooo worth it.
Conversely, if I use my Cablevision cablemodem or Verizon DSL, I routinely have longer syncronization times than my Speakeasy line, along with far more login sync issues (black sync, sync missing inventory, sync to no money). This has been consistently true since August, 2001. See those new Verizon gamer ads? Yeah, they're completely full of shit. :-)
CritiNator
06-03-07, 09:30
Yup, i see your point there. In that situation, it could be our network. However, neocron is the only game that does this. I have never EVER played any MMO that has this kind of problems.
I use cable connection, sometimes i have problems that are caused by that, but when i had adsl, it was same thing. My friend has ADSL 8/2 and he has lot worse than me :)
When i was running with 500Mhz 1gb crappy AMD, game did not run well.. syncs took long, but i did not have rubberband effect. Now that i have better machine, i zone faster but i get stuck to this wierd effect. You cant move, you can cast spells and do all the other things, but move. Even if i can move, i wont. Becouse often i crash after 10s or so, after zone. I guess its becouse server thinks im at zone still and in my screen im running and trying to kill something. I cant damage anything. These are wierd stuff indeed.
I DO understand, that KK cant redesign net code. It takes LOTs of work. But its not funny to hear, that it wont ever get fixed.
Lets see it this way, if it WOULD be fixed, there would be more players online, that would mean more money, better game, more players etc :)
So, if doing network code from scratch is hard job, how come you could upgrade nc1 to nc2? They did change the engine, right?I dont think that was easy thing to do either. So, why is it SO impossible to think, that maybe nc 3.0 or 2.3+ would include new netcode?
Yup, i see your point there. In that situation, it could be our network. However, neocron is the only game that does this. I have never EVER played any MMO that has this kind of problems.If KK isn't going to fix it, they're not going to fix it. The best I can suggest is get a high quality ISP or a business-grade connection from your current ISP. That will mitigate the problems.
CritiNator
06-03-07, 10:25
Nah, im not going to bother becouse of neocron :)
This awesome game, very unique, but i wont start paying 100+ €/ month just to play this game. And i would still be left with fatal runtime errors :)
All I, and everyone else know is that it can be done.
I have played numerous MMOs, quite often with some heavy torrenting in the background and there was latency, but i never got kicked out of the game if latency was below 3000ms.
It can be done, it has been done in UO which precedes neocron by half of a decade. If a network protocol doesn't take packet loss into account, it's simply broken. No matter what kind of connection you have, there will always be some packet lost along the way.
The funniest thing is that this doesnt happen while running in outzone, maybe if there's large latency, but usually happens only while zoning from left to right, that's quite good area to narrow down and start digging.
There are resources out there how to write a decent and efficient network engine. It will take time, but you can make it a sidejob and do it in 'free time'. Fact is that every customer that is thrown into instability issues will just quit, as this is the most annoying thing that can happen in the game ever.
Also, treating customers with 'SILENCE MORTAL, THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE, WE DO NOT CARE' attitude, is a very bad PR approach. It certainly doesn't build sympathy nor hope.
Sometimes when I read some of those replies I feel like reading some UO freeshard realm, where whole developement crew is made of two guys, one of which is a programmer with a bloated ego and he has to code every single line of script on the realm and there's thousand of players nibbling their feet. And the scripter is goddamn pissed just because he's doing hell of a job and he does that for free.
You have a team, you get paid. Once you do the job right, you'll get paid more. Biting the hands that try to feed you despite your angry attitude won't help nor you, nor the players.
Toodles.
It can be done, it has been done in UO which precedes neocron by half of a decade.Unless they lost the source code, or tied much of the game mechanics to unrealistic packet delivery goals.
Also, treating customers with 'SILENCE MORTAL, THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE, WE DO NOT CARE' attitude, is a very bad PR approach. It certainly doesn't build sympathy nor hope.Well, they're German...
The 'snow' example cited has nothing to do with the issue. No sane person here is blamming the server code for when a network pipe dies and no connection can be had. Every other mmorpg on the market that I have played does not suffer from these synch problems like neocron does, including ones with servers as far as south korea. The synch code is not robust, and it dosnt take a software engineer to see that.
That said, the game still rocks- and I'm sure you guys will get it one day ;)
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