View Full Version : [Idea] Dual Wield (again)
Dribble Joy
29-12-06, 16:15
I was somewhere, I can't remember exactly, when I came up with an idea that would make dual wield far simpler to implement.
Main problems with current ideas:
Difference in individual item stats
Whether you should be able to use two dmg mods
Issue of coding: Means of activation, ajustment of dmg/time from each weapon.
Where does the second weapon sit? Second QB slot? Modified slot system when you get dual wield?
This idea pretty much does away with all of those.
Essentially, two weapons (of the same type) can be csted/recced together to create a second weapon (simply a different skin/model of course). As it's a completely new weapon, there's no need for all the complexities of coding etc.
Same slot chance and mod potential (this would give an additional market for low slot weapons which have little current use other than hunting/leveling).
For rares I'd say they should be essentially the same weapon, same TL and reqs, but maybe a WoC req. Overall, an asthetic thing.
For non rares (I don't see why only high enders should be allowed to do this), I'm not sure, maybe no change at all, no higher tl/req, WoC or anything.
Actual cst/rec recipie can be whatever, maybe some special part from HEW or somewhere for the non-rares and something harder to get for the rares.
Hope that made sense.
How about the skill reqs are just added together? So you have weapon A with 120 PC req and weapon B with 100 PC req, so to dual wield them you need 220 PC, and capping (or all stats pretty much) them would be based on the added together reqs. I can really only see this being realistic for pistol and melee though.
Then again, in the old days the big dual wielding thing was that then you didn't carry a shield, right? Well we don't have shields in NC so defence loss = nil. Hmm.
ashley watts
29-12-06, 16:36
How about the skill reqs are just added together? So you have weapon A with 120 PC req and weapon B with 100 PC req, so to dual wield them you need 220 PC, and capping (or all stats pretty much) them would be based on the added together reqs. I can really only see this being realistic for pistol and melee though.
Then again, in the old days the big dual wielding thing was that then you didn't carry a shield, right? Well we don't have shields in NC so defence loss = nil. Hmm.
Gloks idea sounds nice, you wouldent see people running around with 2 slashers and exe's, and hope to god not capping em both.
Or 2 xbows :eek:
Dribble Joy
29-12-06, 16:37
Maybe higher subskill reqs, but not double, maybe 20% for main combat skill and 10% for things like TC. And yes it would only really work with pistols and melee.
As for names you could simply have something like 'Judge brace'.
Gloks idea sounds nice, you wouldent see people running around with 2 slashers and exe's, and hope to god not capping em both.
Or 2 xbows :eek:
You miss the point, you wouldn't have double the dmg output, it's a new weapon (made from two 'base' weapons) to create a new one, same reqs and TL but would simply have a different model (or rather, two models of the base weapon, one in each hand). In effect each 'weapon' would fire at half speed (sorry, thought that was assumed, lots of discussions in the past about dual wield).
Hell-demon
29-12-06, 16:47
You just want DJ to duel wield plasma pistols so you can look good and resemble those pictures you draw of your character :rolleyes:
You miss the point, you wouldn't have double the dmg output, it's a new weapon (made from two 'base' weapons) to create a new one, same reqs and TL but would simply have a different model (or rather, two models of the base weapon, one in each hand). In effect each 'weapon' would fire at half speed (sorry, thought that was assumed, lots of discussions in the past about dual wield).Oh I get it. That sounds reasonable. That should have been in the first post tho.. :p
Dribble Joy
29-12-06, 17:05
Dual wield has been long desired by NC players long before I joined the community/forums. And it's been something I have been interested in long before I started drawing DJ (or even developed my judge fetish).
It would be purely an asthetic feature, otherwise there are all sorts of issues with balancing.
ashley watts
29-12-06, 17:17
ahhh ok me get ya now. Sounds all right and would look considerbly ace.
/signed :cool:
Dribble Joy
31-12-06, 14:56
And because of course they would be completely separate weapons, you could mess about with freq, range or whatever. So you could have 'double' the freq and easily reduce the dmg per shot/burst.
If you think about requirements for a second, this is an awful idea. Imagine 2x Tsunami rifles on a Spy. That guy is going to rip you a new one before you can blink.
Don't do it, 2.2 is going to bring in enough changes.
i really dont think this dual rifles will happen...thats just silly
but i'd kill for dual plasma pistols, even if there isnt any advantage. hell, id use dual plasma pistols if there were disadvantages (such as twice the weight...)
TicketInspector
31-12-06, 22:23
I really like this idea :D
/Signed
Dribble Joy
01-01-07, 03:27
If you think about requirements for a second, this is an awful idea. Imagine 2x Tsunami rifles on a Spy. That guy is going to rip you a new one before you can blink.
Don't do it, 2.2 is going to bring in enough changes.
AGAIN, This would not mean double dmg. Opposed to the problems of balancing dual wield this suggests entirely new weapons. These weapons would be exactly like the base weapon, but with a different model (though with the scope for a different style of performance).
Heavyporker
01-01-07, 06:14
Really, when one thinks about dual-wielding logically, it seems that such a thing, outside of aesthetics, only serves to increase Rate of Fire (hence overall damage).
It is accuracy, and of course, reloading, that suffers considerably.
For a mere 20% increase in subskill requirements, I will happily support dual-wielding pistols. Not rifles, as some in this thread seem think makes sense. I mean, maybe assault rifles slung along arms, but that'd put a considerable amount of additional work (modeling-wise and code-wise). I mean, seriously, is anyone going to dual-wield shotguns or sniper rifles? Let's keep some common sense in this game!
edit: I forgot to add - along with that 20% increase in subskill requirements, there should be some kind of enforced -x% penalty to accuracy on the weapon stats, so that even if you overspec the requirements or have artifact weapons , your maximum accuracy is still quite inferior to someone that stays with one weapon. You know, like if someone has an all-artifact weapon, dual-wielding it means the weapon in effect becomes 120/120% Condition, 120/90/120/120 while in use. So, you'd be quite pinched on hitting someone.
It is accuracy, and of course, reloading, that suffers considerably.
That's right, accuracy with two pistols is not a piece of cake.
Apocalypsox
01-01-07, 07:11
I would kill to have dual First Loves. Id even use a 6 drug setup to do it.
Heavyporker
01-01-07, 17:33
Uhhh.... how would 6 drugs help if they don't add to necessary subskills?
Dribble Joy
01-01-07, 17:37
Really, when one thinks about dual-wielding logically, it seems that such a thing, outside of aesthetics, only serves to increase Rate of Fire (hence overall damage).
It is accuracy, and of course, reloading, that suffers considerably.
From a realism point of view, dmg/time should go up and aiming should go down. From a balance perspective (realism should be introduced wherever possible, but never to the detriment to balance) giving the potential for higher dmg without additional skilling is something I'd reject (lower aiming is not conductive to lower dmg/time).
You could of course increase the dmg and make it require more skilling to reach a cirtain %, but with the same skilling as the base weapon you'd end up with the same amount of dmg/time. Easier to change the inherant freq and dmg per shot/burst of the weapon and base the %s off tl as with any other weapon.
As for reloading and aiming, you could argue that the WoC req would take care of it, special training/knowledge as it were.
Uhhh.... how would 6 drugs help if they don't add to necessary subskills?
In the wider sense. Irrespective of the suggestions here. Like a twin FLs needed 120 dex or something.
I am not meaning to be argumentative - i swear.
I just think, what's the point? I really really can't see why this would or should be implemented.
Sorry DJ. :(
Dribble Joy
01-01-07, 17:59
Varitation? To look cool?
What is the point in accessories?
And like I said in the first post, it would give some value to the low slotted weapons that are 'useless'.
Heavyporker
02-01-07, 03:03
Well, look, some people, aside from the aesthetics of dual-wielding, have playing styles such that might actually prefer to "spray and pray".
And DJ, you sort of seemed to go off on a rambling tangent while supporting my statement. Dual-wielding in any case *would* come only with higher skilling...
And, no, WOC knowledge shouldn't erase the reloading penalty. I mean, a mere malus to aiming doesn't quite balance out the sheer damage one could get by dual-wielding, say, First Loves or Ray of Last Hopes. (Seriously, who's going to bother taking all the trouble to get dual-wielding then grab Wyatt Earps?).
If reloading is such a damn worry to you, perhaps you should petition KK to re-enable extended clips. Boy... I miss those.
As if we have solved all our problems/bugs/population you name it, we go on with a new idea... Really is this the best time to make such a suggestion? Is this what was missing from NC?
Duel welding actually makes your aim really crap! If you've ever noticed cops etc. putting the gun at eye level to aim? When you have two pistols you can't really aim you just point at shoot. So lets say atm aim is 256% It'd be nearer 90% duel welding. realisiticly, however the added damage might balance that out, like hitting twice as hard but half as often.
Still it'd look cool! Twin cursed souls or maledictions FTW!
"Duel Welding" is indeed quite hard and very dangerous...not only could you blind someone from the arc, but you could give some serious burns...
but i agree with that you are saying about dual wielding accuracy, if it were realistically implemented one wouldnt be able to hit the dome (or whats left of it) if one were standing right infront of it.
Dribble Joy
02-01-07, 10:17
And, no, WOC knowledge shouldn't erase the reloading penalty. I mean, a mere malus to aiming doesn't quite balance out the sheer damage one could get by dual-wielding, say, First Loves or Ray of Last Hopes. (Seriously, who's going to bother taking all the trouble to get dual-wielding then grab Wyatt Earps?).
Do people not read anything, or just choose to ignore it?
Dual wield could only be implemented if the dmg/time for the resulting new weapon or combo is unaffected.
And as for going off on a tangent, I thought it was quite an appropriate reply. Though to be rather frank, I don't see the point in arguing with you over PvP balance. You don't PvP, nor seem to want anything in it to deviate from 'realism' no matter how that might affect the actual game play and/or balance.
Anyway, off to work.
Single weapons are barely done right as it is.
This game needs bug fixes, not more aesthetics. Can't look leet if no one's there to see it.
Dribble Joy
02-01-07, 15:12
Well clearly.
But as with other threads like this, ideas for asthetics should not be discarded out of hand for their nature because there's better things to do.
Could have there been better things to do than implement the visible holstered weapons in NC2? Possibly, but it was a good idea to do so in my view.
I would not ask KK to do this right now, 2.2 is vastly more important.
But for the next update (which is supposedly a model/texture/gfx update) it would be a good opportunity to give us something that many of us have been asking for.
Heavyporker
02-01-07, 15:16
Wait, where'd they say that the update after 2.2 would be a model/texture/gfx improvement?
Aw, for fuck's sakes, some vehicles are utterly gimped, there are still worldmap anomalities ( floating trees, trees/objects without clipping borders, boxes labeled as mutant pots, the Gaya Mines water/smoke confusion, the broken ladder(s) in Outzone 3, and so on).
I mean, I like eye candy, but these glaring anomalities just spoil things. Suspension of disbelief suffers mightily when you see something completely out of line with its surroundings. Repeat after me, KK... suspension of disbelief is what makes a *RP*G work!
Well clearly.
But as with other threads like this, ideas for asthetics should not be discarded out of hand for their nature because there's better things to do.
After years of the same bugs being in the game and the proof we've had many times that some go unfixed for extended periods of time, yes, they should be discarded.
I would not ask KK to do this right now, 2.2 is vastly more important.
But for the next update (which is supposedly a model/texture/gfx update) it would be a good opportunity to give us something that many of us have been asking for.
I said what I did because KK always take a very long time to get things done. More time spent on graphics is yet more time spent ignoring core problems. Remember that thread yonks and yonks ago, where we were told fatals were reduced and almost everyone noticed it? It showed that something can be done - but it hasn't been.
This isn't a dig, but I don't think anyone cares about frilly textures or fancy graphics if swathes of bugs keep interrupting them from seeing the damn things in the first place.
I can also imagine it going horribly wrong, somehow. Something totally ridiculous - like a bug allowing tanks to carry twelve cannons. Your idea is a country mile away from being a bad one, though.
Interesting......
But if all you want is to look cool which i would with two DG's!:cool: or add variation.
Why not simply introduce a "fake"dual weild. i.e.
No new weapons
No Balancing
No frq/Dam changes
Just a graphix change so that your char has two weapons but the mechanics work as the same with one.
So i pick up my Plasma pistol, acts exactly as it does today, yet i appear to have one in each hand :)
Make it a tag on specific weapons only i.e. no dual rifles
Dribble Joy
02-01-07, 20:06
Interesting, like a tag on the drop down with a right-click?
The main reason and idea behind my suggestion was a reduction of coding effort. A tag that alters the model would be less coding than my idea, but I think the slight increase for the benefits it would bring would be worht it.
Adding new weapons is quite simple, you don't have to add a raft of new code, only a new item ID with tl, type and model, all of which is mostly there.
Actually having to attain two weapons would make more sense, and with a cst/rec method instead of some convoluted coding effort with two individual weapons would not only side-step a lot balance and QB issues, but would give more use to 'worthless' items that would other wise be discarded.
In the future the style of the weapons (freq etc.) could be altered, as the 'combined' weapon is an independant entity, leading to yet more variation.
After years of the same bugs being in the game and the proof we've had many times that some go unfixed for extended periods of time, yes, they should be discarded.
A resemblance of balance or relative degree of lack of bugs (what we have now, considering what it used to be like and that many other mmos are just as buggy) means that the thing that will put people off is how a game looks.
Look at Huxley or other forthcoming online games. Obviously we have little or no idea how they will play but what people are saying is 'Wow! That looks awesome!'. What about WoW? Argueably a terrible game, yet it looks pretty and you can run about with a flaming magical sword twice your height.
GFX and style have more worth for a game than you may think.
More time spent on graphics is yet more time spent ignoring core problems.
GFX is the work of modellers and the coding required for this idea would be minimal. KK have introduced several new weapons with 2.2, yet it's supposed to be a purely balancing effort.
This is getting a little side tracked though. I don't really care if it takes a year for this to finally come in (if KK ever want to do dual wield (which I hope they do)) or if it's next week.
DJ
The Tag i was thinking about was not a drop down, although thats also an option, but simply duplicating several current weapons. i.e introducing a dual version of certsain weapons
Lets say for example you could but a Plasma pistol or a dual plasma pistol. The code would just pick up which type you had equiped and therefore emit the correct graphic (i.e one or two visible weapons).
Although rares?
Implementing the carrying of two individual weapons, besides the problem of where you put them could follow similiar lines i.e 1 x Judge:D damage = 2xDual Judge so the damage balance is not an issue.
However the mixing of weapons would have the most impact and probably require greater in depth thought.
Dribble Joy
03-01-07, 00:33
Similar to the actual main idea then (stop me if I'm still lost).
Actual seperate weapons that are no different from the original, but with a different use of the model.
I only extended this by saying rather than buying them, you would make them by getting two of the same type, which would allow you to do it with rares and provide a means where unused low quality/slotted left overs are of use beyond hunting.
So:
-Aquire two Judges/BoHs/Blacksuns/Mendicant uzis.
-Cst/rec together
-Get Judge/BoH/Blacksun/Mendicant uzi 'Brace'.
You'd need an extra weapon for each pistol though, 4 per type. You could just go with rares or the lvl 3s, but I see no reason to exclude lower level players and particuarly new players.
Previous concepts of dual wield would be a nightmare to implement. Like I said:
Where would the second weapon go?
How would you activate it?
How would you assure balance?
New weapons stemming from current ones gets around nearly all of this.
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