View Full Version : Weapon caps
solid-rock
11-12-06, 10:40
Not as mutch a bug report as a plea for an explanation. I just cant figure out the new system for weapon damage %. My melee tank gets 100% damage on a TL 3 knife but 110% on a POB and it just dosnt make sence to me.
Is the TL3 knife artifact? The damage calcs are based on weapon quality and have a soft cap (that acts like a hard cap) that limits maximum damage%. So with a 'shabby' TL3 knife I imagine you would only ever get 100% even with 255 melee skill.
solid-rock
11-12-06, 10:54
No its a bad tl 3 knife the one you get when you start a new tank char.
So what your saying is our weapon damage cap is now based on the weapon condition?
Yup. :)
edit: Those drone rare parts that are 'junk' won't be for much longer I guess.
solid-rock
11-12-06, 11:02
Man its gunna be hard to figure out of you cap your weps then :P Maybe someone could fiddle a lil program that will calculate the weapon cap acording to condition or something? Or a chart of some kind.
Well I've already determined that my PE is gonna have to give up her beloved plasma wave for a TT epic cannon, even if the imps get their old bonus back (old as in 4 days ago). A 5 slot plasma wave double barreled has 111% damage, combine that with the slightly higher bonus for epic weapons over hightech weapons, and the TT should do more damage with less skill invested. I have yet to test this though... being a bit lazy.
Dribble Joy
11-12-06, 11:44
The soft cap is also too low, there's little change in the dmg% you get on most weapons even with large changes in the main combat skill.
I lommed about 15 PC and lost 4% dmg.
Either it needs to be raised higher, or the rather large combat skill bonuses on the offence implants needs to come down.
The soft cap is also too low, there's little change in the dmg% you get on most weapons even with large changes in the main combat skill.
I lommed about 15 PC and lost 4% dmg.
Either it needs to be raised higher, or the rather large combat skill bonuses on the offence implants needs to come down.
I would prefer it simply raised higher.
Dribble Joy
11-12-06, 14:17
Either way really, as long as the defence imps retain high enough benefits to be worth using over the offence ones.
Not exactly. As said elsewhere, there are no caps. Weapon quality in each stat area acts as a multiplier at somepoint during the calculations - now, if that is towards the end, after the exponential like function of damage% then it will have an effect on what the ultimate practically acheivable %age is. If its just a modifier to the skill effect, it just changes how hard it is. It seems perhaps that the latter applies.
I'm not sure.. DJ said (DJ correct me if I'm wrong) that 220PC gave 147% damage on a Judge (arti dam%) whereas 240HC on my PE gave me 141% damage on the aforementioned plasma wave. That looks almost linear to me, directly based on the weapon damage stat quality.
edit: To be more clear (:p) the amount of overspeccing you would have to do to overcome the difference between a 110% and 120% damage stat weapon that is otherwise identical would be HUGE.
edit: Hmm, I can test this ^^ brb with screenies. (hope I'm not wrong. :lol: )
solid-rock
11-12-06, 16:00
Id like to know the exact formula for finding the weapon caps so i can make a calculation aplication :P.
There.
Aren't
Any
Weapon
Caps
That said, the exact forumlae for calculating weapon damage %, freq, aiming etc would be interesting.
There.
Aren't
Any
Weapon
CapsThat I know, but the soft cap isn't very soft. :p
Dribble Joy
11-12-06, 16:13
I'm not sure.. DJ said (DJ correct me if I'm wrong) that 220PC gave 147% damage on a Judge (arti dam%) whereas 240HC on my PE gave me 141% damage on the aforementioned plasma wave. That looks almost linear to me, directly based on the weapon damage stat quality.
Around that. Currently I have 198 PC and 140 wep, and get 143%, 207rpm.
What tl is the plasma wave though?
That I know, but the soft cap isn't very soft. :p
I was talking to Solid.
But yes, it seems that the curve is a bit harsh at the moment goes from near-linear benefit to almost none, with only a small inbetween area. I still suspect some kind of exponential function is involved.
Around that. Currently I have 198 PC and 140 wep, and get 143%, 207rpm.
What tl is the plasma wave though?It's TL81.. not a comparison to a Judge, for sure. The test I'm gonna do is with a plasma wave I transferred that was csted, and an arti one from one of the smugglers. I'm fairly certain that I'll be able to easily reach a damage% on the arti one that I can't reach at all on the csted one.
Dribble Joy
11-12-06, 16:57
I was talking to Solid.
But yes, it seems that the curve is a bit harsh at the moment goes from near-linear benefit to almost none, with only a small inbetween area. I still suspect some kind of exponential function is involved.
I'm going to test it at some point. KK mentioned in the last discussion thread a soft cap beyond which the skilling is at 70%. So we should get two sets of linear relationships.
the problem right now is that the caps we had in nc2.1 dont really exist in nc 2.2 i think ´. if u put it this way. for an exampel " not 2000% accurate but u get the picture i hope"
if u got 190 pc /130 wpl and are using a all arti tl 90 pistol u get like 140 % dmg on it while if u take a tl 20 pistol with all arti stats aswell u wont get much more perhaps 160% MAXX . the caps cant be ingame yet or else ima get damn dissapointed since u cant capp any weapons right now.
I wasn't testing for the soft cap, DJ can do that.. but here is what I got:
117wep / 76TC / 180HC
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/neosigs/180csted.jpghttp://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/neosigs/180arti.jpg
117wep / 76TC / 200HC
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/neosigs/200csted.jpghttp://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/neosigs/200arti.jpg
117wep / 76TC / 220HC
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/neosigs/220csted.jpghttp://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/neosigs/220arti.jpg
117wep / 76TC / 236HC (with the 3min HC drug)
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/neosigs/236csted.jpghttp://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i213/neosigs/236arti.jpg
Synopsis:
117wep / 76TC / 180HC
csted - 135% Damage
arti - 143% Damage
117wep / 76TC / 200HC
csted - 139% Damage (4% improvement)
arti - 147% Damage (4% improvement)
117wep / 76TC / 220HC
csted - 143% Damage (4% improvement)
arti - 151% Damage (4% improvement)
117wep / 76TC / 236HC
csted - 146% Damage (3% improvement)
arti - 154% Damage (3% improvement)
The improvement is linear and equal for both of them for some reason.. You must be right CMaster. I would have to drop HC lower to find the soft cap but that wasn't the point.. that's DJs job. :p
The only thing of real interest to me after that is that the csted one stayed at 95 freq the whole time, while the arti one showed slight improvements.
You guys can analyze the pics further.. I can't be bothered.
Dribble Joy
11-12-06, 18:22
the problem right now is that the caps we had in nc2.1 dont really exist in nc 2.2 i think ´. if u put it this way. for an exampel " not 2000% accurate but u get the picture i hope"
if u got 190 pc /130 wpl and are using a all arti tl 90 pistol u get like 140 % dmg on it while if u take a tl 20 pistol with all arti stats aswell u wont get much more perhaps 160% MAXX . the caps cant be ingame yet or else ima get damn dissapointed since u cant capp any weapons right now.
We're talking about soft caps. A point where beyond further skilling causes minimal increases. At the moment they are too low.
In case anyone is wondering 'so what?'..
In 2.1 currently I fullcap that csted plasma wave, 178%, 267% etc.. same as the TT epic cannon and I do more damage with the plasma wave. However in 2.2 I will get MUCH better stats on the TT epic cannon due to it's slightly lower TL and artifact quality and no caps. I'm pretty certain it will do more damage too, which is weird as hell and I'm going to test it, but that's what it looks like.
That's a pretty unusual case though and won't matter for most chars using all arti rares, but it does mean you can get better damage on a lower TL rare weapon with the same skilling. No caps = more choices.
Dribble Joy
11-12-06, 19:06
Alas it only works if the soft cap is such that using a lower tl weapon gets you equal dmg.
What we also need to be wary of is the potential to use lowtech weapons, gain additional defences due to the lower reqs, but still get high dmg.
That's another reason I want the majority of combat skill bonuses to come from non-mainskill giving items.
Yes but theoretically you will get higher defence from using a lower TL weapon, you for example use a ppr right? So while the overall damage may be a bit lower due to TL, the lack of caps means it will be within range so then the slightly higher defence should balance it out.. theory of course. You are right though, more pure subskill imps and more defense imps are needed.
solid-rock
11-12-06, 21:00
This is all very.. hmm technical.
Maybe... but I was wrong about your bad TL3 knife... if you keep adding melee skill your damage on it should keep going up. But so would your PoB, and the PoB would always have a higher damage% due to quality. Me, I have a headache (though that's simple)
Dribble Joy
11-12-06, 23:41
Yes but theoretically you will get higher defence from using a lower TL weapon, you for example use a ppr right? So while the overall damage may be a bit lower due to TL, the lack of caps means it will be within range so then the slightly higher defence should balance it out.. theory of course. You are right though, more pure subskill imps and more defense imps are needed.
The problem is slight, and is countered probably sufficiently by the fact dmg is related to TL.
What I am more concerned about, and I should have mentioned it in the last post, is the WoC items without main skill reqs. As high tl weapons they can still reach the dmg per skilling levels of the normal weapons of equal TL, but there's too much freedom to discard the necessity of reaching a cirtain main stat.
Well.. they aren't artifact in retail though, I guess we can assume that will remain the case. Possibly they will become moddable, but still won't be arti afterwards. Beats me really, I'll never have a WoC char anyways. :p
Dribble Joy
12-12-06, 00:21
Here's something that might be of use.....
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j223/Muffdemon/judgedmg.jpg
Weird. Though if you fudge it out, you could place the damage soft cap at 115-120%
Well, I was right about the way quality is applied,it seems. I was wrong about the exponential shape - although quite what function it does fit is another matter. THe linearity you have found is good. Of course, linearity of HC/Damage effect doesn't mean linearity of Skill investment/damage because of the extra points you have to invest for one HC.
Anyway, we can reasonably hypothesiseat least this much now
1:Weapon damage = Weapon Quality * f(Skills, TL)
Where f is some as yet unknown function that possibly changes at a flip point. What I had expected (and would have yielded a different result would be:
Weapon damage = f((Weapon Quality *Skills), TL)
Presumably we can apply equation 1 to other areas of weapon use as well...
There is a lot of info in those screenshots I didn't expect.. recoil and aiming are identical for the 2 weapons, I thought they would both be based on the handling stat. Also the range.. the arti one gets better range at 180HC than the csted one (with 111% range) at 236HC.
And the points investment, exactly. Instead of fiddling, I just specced my test char (after that test) with 100 base HC, put the rest in tra and resists and called it a setup. :p
take a new character
take a billion gom (:P gain of memory instead of loss) pills
walk into neofrag
get ur weplor to 50, ensure this never changes with buffs or drugs or anything else. also makesure ur str remains at 100.
pull a gun and put in 1 point and check difference in wep damage. write it down and repeate untill 100 points are in HC
walk in and out of neofrag
implant chips while outside
walk back in
set ur hc back to 80 with points
get a heavy buff
continue adding heavy and record the damage modification
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