View Full Version : [OT] Axioms
Ok I figure this isn't religion, at least I hope not or it is closed thread fodder...
I was wondering, what do you live by? Is there anything you take as true no matter what, across all you do?
Mine is this:
"I think that there are actually some absolutes in this world. One is: 'There cannot be an end.' We might have a concept of an end, but if it ever arrived there would be 'nothing' to know that it had. So we ponder the end and in the full sum of reality we discover that it is actually impossible. This time that we are here questioning it is what exists, not the result of it actually happening."
Dribble Joy
15-08-06, 05:19
Heh.
I have no beliefs, nor do I not believe in anything* (which of course is a kind of belief in itself).
I generally have a disdain for any form of ideology or any assumption made at all (as assumptions generally ignore critial factors in order to perform some opinion based set of ethics), but don't oppose them as such, as that would again be forming a belief that beliefs are bad; Given that good and bad are also beliefs.
As a result, in the wider sense, I have no opinion at all.
Reality peaks it's nose in occationally, and natural human instincts too despite my general dislike of them and attempts to ignore them. Though not ignoring them to the point of in principle as that again moves against a lack of principle.
Most people might call me 'evil', considering that I don't consider there to be anything good or bad about anything, it's all derived from a particular standpoint/opinion/assumption.
Of course this leads to many a paradox, as in saying that belief(s) are incorrect/faulty/bad/etc itself is expressing a view point. So we arrive at a kind of philosophical duality where ideology is both utter stupidity and perfectly acceptable.
* For example: There's two similar yet subtley different ideologies; Atheism and Anti-theism. The fomer is the dis-belief in a theoligical being/concept, the latter is the rejection of theistic principles.
In atheism you do not believe in a god.
Anti-theism is where you disagree with the very concept.
The question is, can you be one but not the other? I generally consider that you can.
You can be atheistic - not believing does not necessarily mean you reject it in principle, so you are not anti-theistic.
(This ones a little harder) You could be anti-theistic - rejecting theistic principles, but that does not mean you do not believe that a god exists, so you are not atheistic.
The wording might be a bit iffy in that bit, it's gone 4 in the morning here.
Whoa DJ! So in the terms of D&D you are determined to be neutral-neutral or chaotic-neutral no?
Dribble Joy
15-08-06, 05:27
Chaotic neutral probably.
Apocalypsox
15-08-06, 05:31
i bet almost everyone playing Cron have been turned into beleivers of the apocalypse for the human race. :D
Use vent nib.... Im loonly
Dribble Joy
15-08-06, 05:41
Use vent nib.... Im loonly
Right thread?
Or am I that tired?
its an OT thread anyway so, ur sigs too high pantho.
+1 sigspam
its an OT thread anyway soYeah.. I don't expect many to reply in depth anyways... shit is serious enough without us getting all philosophical and shit. :D
nibs, high and shit... ill wait for N to remove it, lol
i was talking to apoc :p
Dribble Joy
15-08-06, 06:12
What server and stuff. I is bored to.
Apocalypsox
15-08-06, 06:48
i get on vent and Nubbins up there goes to bed =P
Come on people we need more opionoins!!!
@DJ
I reread that business you posted... it seems to me that in your efforts to not believe anything, including that you don't believe you don't believe in anything (:D) you are gonna end up adding axioms and caveats until you go blind. 8|
The only rule you need to live by.
Just get on with it!
Just get on with it!Damn straight.
we are all our own personal god... so stop praying for some other fucker to help u and help ur dam self
Dribble Joy
15-08-06, 22:40
As much as people like to think that people want to run their own lives (classic western self-empowerment), most people are quite happy for others to do things for them, natural evolutionry trait. As such they can reach a point where they percieve (rightly or wrongly) that they cannot support themselves and/or are victims to their situation (which of course is not of their making and/or beyond their control....) and look to some kind of idealised mechanism and/or blame others for it and desire them to do something about it.
Heh. Mighty thin line... (N?) :D
Without people who are happy to be led/used/abused there would be no room for tyrants...
hmmm my coment sounded a tad religious n if i worded it different rolly political but it wasnt ment that way =] im having a go at human nature not religiouse belifes
people thing that havin faith sumbody else will sort out there problems n bail em out is better than standin up n doing something to change it them selfs
Dribble Joy
15-08-06, 22:58
Without people who are happy to be led/used/abused there would be no room for tyrants...
Not necessarily....
Even those unwilling to be obidient will be in the face of a threat (percieved or no).
Touching on a conversation a while ago I had, if you remaove all fear of consequence, you end up with complete anarchy. No-one can rule in fear, no-one can rule in co-operation. No structure at all can emerge and the entire population degrades to individuals attempting to survive.
Remember that you can have rule by 'fear' that's consenting.
A police force and a set of laws impose a series of consequences for communially unacceptable occurances. People than in general avoid these actions in order to avoid the results of doing them.
Of course the problem is the disagreement with what is communially unacceptable.
people thing that havin faith sumbody else will sort out there problems n bail em out is better than standin up n doing something to change it them selfs
Subject to opinion and circumstance :p.
Every second of your life you spend discussing peoples ideas on life ( when you have your own views, which frankly aren't going to change without some real effort), is a second you've wasted.
Not a lot of people are going to be influenced by other peoples views on an issue like this. We belive what we do, and we live how we do. Why can't that be enough. Stop philosophising, get out there and grab life by the horns :p
Even those unwilling to be obidient will be in the face of a threat (percieved or no).
Remember that you can have rule by 'fear' that's consenting.
A police force and a set of laws impose a series of consequences for communially unacceptable occurances. People than in general avoid these actions in order to avoid the results of doing them.I would say in the vast majority of cases, rule by fear is accomplished with the help of the willingly subjugate. No one person will ever rule alone...
But yeah, anarchy is the logical result of no rule(s).
@Spermy: You nit. Who says we have to change our views... isn't it fun to see the things other people consider important too?
Dribble Joy
15-08-06, 23:14
Why can't that be enough.
Philosophical thought can have massive implications on the world around us.
Frequently for the 'better', but also for the 'worse'. Many many examples around us if you look.
Without debating it and attempting to solve various issues little progress will be made.
Anyway. I'm only an amateur philosopher, my heart lies with physics, and that's where I shall probably be spending the rest of my life with any hope.
I would say in the vast majority of cases, rule by fear is accomplished with the help of the willingly subjugate. No one person will ever rule alone...
Depends on your definition of willing.
I may not agree with something, but I may accept that it must occur. Does that make me willing or not? (rhetorical question really)
:edit
And those stating that as philosophical theorising tends to go round in circles, it's ultimately pointless; Remember the possibility of paradigm shifts (which have happed before).
I may not agree with something, but I may accept that it must occur.Funny how ideological lines are united in that... communal or democratic? Looks the same to me. :p
And those stating that as philosophical theorising tends to go round in circles, it's ultimately pointless; Remember the possibility of paradigm shifts (which have happed before).yep. Many philosophers have precipitated huge changes, even when the changes weren't what the philosopher was describing... Marx and Nietzsche come to mind... care to name others? ;)
Ok double post... (first post echo)
Say you're gonna die like right away. Either you think yer gonna go on or not. Either you think you should live for the now or not (Spermeh) Either there is substance to living or not (big bang fuck you we didn't pop out of nowhere dammit!)
What I said was that you are only here when you're here... maybe physical death is the end or maybe not but either way the only thing that counts is whether you are here for it or not. And guess what comes after 'the end?' That's right it's the fucking end, nothing is after.
I look at the fact that I am self aware and I look at the fact that events make sense in the end (weird shit has happened to me) and I look at the simple fact that we are physical but nothing about our awareness even remotely resembles physical. What we think about ourselves is non-physical... what does that say, well it says thoughts have no mass... That means that thoughts represent exactly zero percent of the known universe in terms of predictable/quantifiable phenomenae.
If the universe became a bunch of robots mechanically extracting all necessary resources for survival would that still be life?
@Spermy: You nit. Who says we have to change our views... isn't it fun to see the things other people consider important too?
Nothing at all. But this thread appears to be more competitive than philosphical. ;)
Talking about nothing... You know scientists says there is nothing in space, only vacuum and vacuum is like.. nothing? If it were nothing, we wouldn't be able to travel or see trough it. So vacuum isn't nothing! When will those scientists ever learn?! *sigh*
And i thought the Universe thread was mind boggling, i think we need a new forum for Glok's random serious discussions :p
i do hope this thread doesnt get closed. its a realy good read =]
Talking about nothing... You know scientists says there is nothing in space, only vacuum and vacuum is like.. nothing? If it were nothing, we wouldn't be able to travel or see trough it. So vacuum isn't nothing! When will those scientists ever learn?! *sigh*That's awesome. :lol:
@Tratos: Bah. :p
I just wanted to add this as support for my original post...
"What might drive you a little nuts is this: we have a concept of an end. But in order for that concept to be part of reality there actually has to be an end and for each being to understand all of reality each being has to experience it. But if we make exceptions and say well it really isn't the end it just looks like the end then the concept is false because it isn't the end."
Now I often think whether I will be remembered or not. But if I am then that really isn't the end is it, portions of me are being carried on. And as long as anything is alive portions of each thing before them will also be a part of the world.
So why do we insist that death or something else entirely is the end? Either there will be a point where you never existed, where your influence is no longer a part of reality, which would mean that nothing after you exists either, or there is no end.
I think this makes each of us immortal, and if it doesn't then it doesn't matter anyways because eventually when the final end comes none of us will have ever been here in the first place. But it's pretty clear we are here... so we exist... so either there is no end or we haven't reached it yet. But if it is reachable then it would also erase the fact that we were ever here at all... so I guess I can repeat myself, 'there can be no end.'
I just wanted to add this as support for my original post...
"What might drive you a little nuts is this: we have a concept of an end. But in order for that concept to be part of reality there actually has to be an end and for each being to understand all of reality each being has to experience it. But if we make exceptions and say well it really isn't the end it just looks like the end then the concept is false because it isn't the end."
i dont think any one can undersatnd the end cos you say they need to undersatnd it to know what it is i think the end is death so im saying you dont understand it untill you die then you get it
Now I often think whether I will be remembered or not. But if I am then that really isn't the end is it, portions of me are being carried on. And as long as anything is alive portions of each thing before them will also be a part of the world.
yes but what if the story of you is remembed but it gos on for that long people start making other storys up about you that if it carrys on for longer then that you will end cos what do people now is the truth or a lie
So why do we insist that death or something else entirely is the end? Either there will be a point where you never existed, where your influence is no longer a part of reality, which would mean that nothing after you exists either, or there is no end.
theys always new life being bought into this world the birth rate in the world is higher then the deth rate not counting the 3rd world of couse so they is always someone to take your place
I think this makes each of us immortal, and if it doesn't then it doesn't matter anyways because eventually when the final end comes none of us will have ever been here in the first place. But it's pretty clear we are here... so we exist... so either there is no end or we haven't reached it yet. But if it is reachable then it would also erase the fact that we were ever here at all... so I guess I can repeat myself, 'there can be no end.'
the end comes when you die
But saying that there’s always the matix theory if you believe in this if not what the fuck you doing reading this post anyway I will tell you the theory everyone sleeps and they are dreaming but there’s a computer controlling everyone’s dream but we think we are living everyday like normal so what you think.
Plus do you think you control your own fate or not do you think god as everyone’s fate already wrote down for everyone or not me I don’t believe in none of this I think we make our own fate if you try hard in life I think you could get everything you ever wanted but on the other hand you don’t need to try you could just win the lotto or something but if you try to hard you could just get power mad and lose everything you ever had like in family cos all you want to do is work work work
Anyway you think god has everything wrote down cos I don’t
NAPPER
:)
'the end comes when you die'
So if that's true then there actually is an end where from your perspective all is gone and all you ever did is gone. If that's true then information can be erased from this universe because no one can ever know the real you. If that's true then there really can be an end if only from a certain perspective but that leaves the possibility open for greater ends since now we know information can be erased from the universe. So theoretically if there can be a 'final' end when it happens everything ever will be erased which would make it so we were never here in the first place... but clearly we are. ;)
Plus do you think you control your own fate or not do you think god as everyone’s fate already wrote down for everyone or not me I don’t believe in none of this I think we make our own fate if you try hard in life I think you could get everything you ever wanted but on the other hand you don’t need to try you could just win the lotto or something but if you try to hard you could just get power mad and lose everything you ever had like in family cos all you want to do is work work workWe just gotta do what we do and not worry about it right? In spite of myself I gotta agree.
you belive in reincarnation glok i think when you have gone you have gone
no after life none of this shit no haven
you no what i think this is hell right now on earth and if god thinks you been good lol you go to a better place and if not you stay here
fucking god hes a guy that needs a shave im only saying that cos on the simpsons hes got a missive long white beard
I really dont now wtf happens. but i do now that We are all energy. Something has to happen to us tbh -
Whether we just go into the earth, fucked for eternity, or goto heaven.
I dont now, i dont care tho... Life is what we want it to be, If we start following a relegion then are we not just doing what they wont to do.. If i want to do something i dont tihnk about heaven or hell. Although i do have high Morals.
Dont steal etc etc stuff like that... well not since i was errr 12 :)
Dam that tractor was fun
you belive in reincarnation glok
I really dont now wtf happens. but i do now that We are all energy. Something has to happen to us tbhPantho answered my thoughts on that... conservation of energy... but um it doesn't mean our minds/souls/whatever stay cohesive...
Dont steal etc etc stuff like that... well not since i was errr 12 :)
Dam that tractor was funThat must have been fun... I didn't get to be in control of a powered vehicle till later in my teens, except from when I was 8 my dad used to let me sit on his knee and steer the van on the highway (going at highway speeds too.. some 90-100kmh).
Dribble Joy
21-08-06, 16:34
but i do now that We are all energy.
Or just information, depending on which train of meta-physics you adere to.
Dont steal etc etc stuff like that... well not since i was errr 12 :)
Dam that tractor was fun
One of my mate's in school stole a coach when drunk. Just walked into the bus depot and took it for a little spin. Drove it through the barriers at Waitrose and when trying to 'park' it, smashed it into a lamp post.
Not exactly the behavior that a grammar school kid from south england is expected to exhibit. Though frankly we were all a bit insane. One of us is still banned from Canada for setting fire to a skip... that was next to a petrol station. His dad's a judge btw....
Erm sorry im on the wrong forum. This is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too deep and meaningful to be on the neocron forum :p
If you die is it the end? because you wouldnt be able to realise it was the end, so there isnt an end .
THE END
yes but what if the story of you is remembed but it gos on for that long people start making other storys up about you that if it carrys on for longer then that you will end cos what do people now is the truth or a lie
I guess it would be made into a book and before you know it there would be a copy of that book in every hotel room. :angel:
I'd believe in Glok.
I guess it would be made into a book and before you know it there would be a copy of that book in every hotel room.That particular dude has such a huge belief base now that it makes no difference whatsoever if he actually did what it is said he did or even if he really existed, no one knows and no one can know but the sheer weight of the belief in him makes it a moot point. He changed the world forever, like it or not... (though I do take issue with beliefs in things unseen buuuut 99% of the people in the world believe in things unseen just because it's easier than admitting you know almost nothing at all first hand.)
I'd believe in Glok.:D
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