View Full Version : Stealth Idea,
Remove Jones stealth for PE, and make and remove "Spy" Reqs from Stealth 1,2,3. PE's can still use Stealth 1/2 But they would have to nerf themselves. they would have to choose between capping a weapong 33 TL's above there dex, or Stealthing.
i.e. old PE stealth when it was whored even more than it currently is :D
Yep. if there giong to have it. make them PAY for it tbh.
Apocalypsox
15-05-06, 02:03
/signed.
get off mah stealth bitch
Obsidian X
15-05-06, 03:06
Remove Jones stealth for PE, and make and remove "Spy" Reqs from Stealth 1,2,3. PE's can still use Stealth 1/2 But they would have to nerf themselves. they would have to choose between capping a weapong 33 TL's above there dex, or Stealthing.
You mean change it back to what it used to be about 2 years ago? No thanks, stealth was originally taken away from PEs for a damn good reason (though I actually forget what that was now)
tbh i thought about it more, and PC/RC PE have enought TC anyway. and HC/MC have enough dex points.... im just tired tbh. it would screw droning Pe's up :D
solid-rock
15-05-06, 08:55
Well pe's shouldnt be droning in the first place its a freak of nature lol. Honestly PE's dont need stealth they got eanough defense and PSI ability to do just fine without it.
Stealth on a PE is magnificently useful. Stealthing into people and attacking them never gets boring.
Besides, PEs need a lot of preparation compared to other classes (except spies, but they have stealth too).
Can't really expect a PE to take 2-3 drugs, S, D, Primes, combat booster and perhaps remove PA for some spells while getting shot at if they get jumped, can you?
solid-rock
15-05-06, 09:31
No but thats the price you have to pay for having high caps on your secondary skills. You cant have a jack of all trades character without having to pay a price. The PE does not need stealth ive seen some of the guys who are confident eanough to not whore the damn jones stealth, and they do exceptionally well for themselves.
I'm all up for simply removing stealth from PEs, it would help to get rid of all those goddamn drugwhores. And that's 9 out of 10 these days. Hate all those exec/slasher bandwagon PEs. :rolleyes:
Removing stealth from them would mean they can't just stealth and redrug/relog to remove drugflash whenever they want, they actually have to cope with the downside of drugging up to the eyeballs.
And before anyone cries about spies, spy stealth needs a change aswell, i'd like it to have some sort of downtime inbetween so you can't restealth instantly.
Also there's a lot more drugged PEs than combat spies around anyway.
I'm all up for simply removing stealth from PEs, it would help to get rid of all those goddamn drugwhores. And that's 9 out of 10 these days. Hate all those exec/slasher bandwagon PEs. :rolleyes:
That's getting fixed anyway.. Besides, it's not like people would stop playing exe/slasher PEs because their stealth was removed.
And drugs? PEs are on two or three drugs which ever weapon they use. Usually two.. I don't see how that's any different from spies. They need drugs just as much as eachother to be viable.
[edit]
I'm not saying stealth doesn't need a change, but removing it is going too far.
[edit again]
What about making the downtime between stealth the same length of time as you stealth tool you used?
Jones stealth, ten second 'cooldown'.
Stealth II, twenty second 'cooldown'.
Stealth III, thirty second 'cooldown'.
Don't really think there should be a limit on Obliterator, since it's rare and not many people use it anyways.
PE's don't get huge advantages from having PPU, so they need more toolz...
What would happen to JoaT without a bit of stealth, eh?
They need more tools but they shouldn't be able to use Stealth II ffs. In other words, if PE's could use Stealth II, all you would see is HC PE's using it, since there would probably be clones of the tools that require a lot more TC? Stealth I is enough to be honest.
Besides, PEs need a lot of preparation compared to other classes (except spies, but they have stealth too).
Can't really expect a PE to take 2-3 drugs, S, D, Primes, combat booster and perhaps remove PA for some spells while getting shot at if they get jumped, can you?Why not? PE's are the all-round class, certain setups REQUIRE drugs. My spy does all those things in bold each time. Stealth I is more than enough to counter being jumped on if you need to escape. You should be looking around yourself to prevent that happening anyway, that's the luxury of having no LE.
RogerRamjet
15-05-06, 11:37
Theres nothing more annoying than being a tank with a tl3 heal, beating an xbow PE then having him stealth off and come back 30 seconds later on full HP. It sucks balls.
roger, tank can use tl10 heal as well. not as good, but using tl3 as a tank is just stupid.
you fight a PE, PE stealths - you heal. you have got around 13-14 seconds _more_ time to heal in this case than the PE, which means you'll be healed up as well when he returns.
you fight a PE, PE heals, then stealths - you can heal and easily shoot/track him in stealth, and as soon as stealth ends PE can choose to either fight you, heal and stealth again, or simply stealth (see above).
dogface's point is a good one - PE needs some time to prepare for a fight. take away stealth from PE - take it from spies as well. at the moment, the difference between spies and PEs is so small it would be just plain stupid to take it from PEs and not from spies.
All classes need to prepare for a fight, some in more ways than others. This isn't a good reason to whine so that PE's are able to use Stealth II as well as Stealth I. It's a totally fucked up excuse.
How about:-
1) Keep the current range of Spy only Stealth as it is.
2) Add a new PE range of Stealth for PE's only. But change the T-C requirements. Maybe PE Stealth 1 = Same TC as Spy Stealth 2, PE Stealth 2 = Same TC as Spy Stealth 3...you get the picture.
Not sure about the INT mind, it may have to be lowered a little.
And someone give me a good reason why PE's shouldn't have stealth, when both classes can use the same pistols and rifles, or in the case of spies, they can use the really high end weapons.
solid-rock
15-05-06, 12:48
Beacouse PE's have mutch better strength con and PSI than spies.
Dribble Joy
15-05-06, 13:00
Either:
Add timer/stack before stealth kicks in, same item restrictions in timer as in stealth.
Make stealthed runners targetable.
All classes need to prepare for a fight, some in more ways than others. This isn't a good reason to whine so that PE's are able to use Stealth II as well as Stealth I. It's a totally fucked up excuse.
dont see anyone whining :rolleyes: but I agree, PEs dont need/shouldnt have access to stealth2+, those are spy toys.
solid rock: yeah, and spys have PA that gives them an assload of xray resist + heavy belts, which kinda makes up for alot of the con/str they dont have. but I've had that discussion more than often enough ...
My whole point was to make them have to waist TC points in dex. but then i realised most have between 76-88 anyway , or 93 if ur like mine and cba to lom....
although that extra few is kool, coz if im following some1 and there on 10hp and my pistol buff runs, they still die *_*
PE stealth is fine how it is! Stop the whine. AIM > STEALTH
I dont relie on pistol 1 buff either, its for the Lose!
Nidhogg closing this thread > sex with an unclean prositute. It's a totally stupid idea.
go ahead, i just put a flaw im my first idae, so i want it closed/dont care tbh
Why not? PE's are the all-round class, certain setups REQUIRE drugs. My spy does all those things in bold each time. Stealth I is more than enough to counter being jumped on if you need to escape. You should be looking around yourself to prevent that happening anyway, that's the luxury of having no LE.
Erm, that's exactly my point :p
Your spy has to do the same thing and he has stealth. PEs must do the same thing, so they should keep their stealth too.
I'm certainly not for upping the stealth duration for PEs.. Never said I was !
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Oh man I can't wait for the day this topic gets on the balancing forums :lol:
Why are you so obsessed with taking stealth away from lowtech PEs, they aren't exactly decent.
The 'sweetspots' in con setups make lowtechs useless.
RogerRamjet
15-05-06, 17:09
roger, tank can use tl10 heal as well. not as good, but using tl3 as a tank is just stupid.
you fight a PE, PE stealths - you heal. you have got around 13-14 seconds _more_ time to heal in this case than the PE, which means you'll be healed up as well when he returns.
you fight a PE, PE heals, then stealths - you can heal and easily shoot/track him in stealth, and as soon as stealth ends PE can choose to either fight you, heal and stealth again, or simply stealth (see above).
dogface's point is a good one - PE needs some time to prepare for a fight. take away stealth from PE - take it from spies as well. at the moment, the difference between spies and PEs is so small it would be just plain stupid to take it from PEs and not from spies.
Oh yes im sorry if i havent been bothered to go through the process of making a trial account to whore the proffession missions yet :rolleyes:
The problem im suggesting is the XBOW PE heals, then stealths, uses meds, runs very fast, often through walls so you can hardly track them anyway in areas like PP3 and Ind A, or you can follow to their appy (Trace <3) and kill them there where you lose SL for killing an enemy inside your city.
ANd if not, they come back and get the jump on you. I'm all for changing the balance of pvp to the better pvpers side, but in the case of some fights ive had, its who can get the stealth out fast enough.
And WTF. Preparing for a fight has nothing to do with stealth. Who the fuck runs out without buffs, sees an enemy, stealths away, buffs up, stealths again, and comes back to have a pop. My chars are buffed constantly, prepared constantly. Stealth has nothing to do with it.
Oh yes im sorry if i havent been bothered to go through the process of making a trial account to whore the proffession missions yet :rolleyes:
PEs have to do the same if they want a tl10 heal. I simply bought mine. edit: not true, some friend gave it to me .. but anyway, if you dont wanna spend the time, just spend the cash.
btw, xbow PEs are a totally different thing - but thats because of the xbow, not because of the PE. should have read your post more carefully.
RogerRamjet
15-05-06, 17:29
I stated Xbow along with the issue of giving the pvp advantage to the best pvper.
Xbow PE = The best.
/55 tank with no resistors in = not the best.
Stealth takes away all advantages a better pvper has over someone who isnt so good.
no it doesnt .. I was fighting a PE that stealthed away about 4 times, coming back about 4 times. in the end he didnt come back anymore, because he got his ass kicked about 5 times.
stealth gives the advantage of surprise/being the first to attack, and the possibility to run from a fight you're losing. thats it.
RogerRamjet
15-05-06, 17:42
no it doesnt .. I was fighting a PE that stealthed away about 4 times, coming back about 4 times. in the end he didnt come back anymore, because he got his ass kicked about 5 times.
stealth gives the advantage of surprise/being the first to attack, and the possibility to run from a fight you're losing. thats it.
You just proved what i was trying to get at. Stealth stops any victory (by this i mean, a corpse and a quick belt) from happening.
And in a lot of cases on Mars, stealth first gives the PE a chance to suprise you, then about 10 seconds later escape again :rolleyes:
Part of the problem with Quickbelts is that anyone in a team with the person who owns the belt in question can loot it and take the contents. This shouldn't be allowed in my opinion. They removed the ability for backpacks to drop, you now automatically pay for it to be returned to you, to save on the resources, perhaps this requirement to "run back and grab it" should be returned. This way it will stop random friends and allies or whoever just running along and grabbing it at ease, stopping all hopes for it being hacked.
Most annoying thing is hacking a belt and finding it's empty because some stealther has blagged it for their mate.
just wanted to state that if you put a tc requirement on pe stealth then you only make lotech pe's extinct, as well as droning pes. the ones you want to nerf (hitech pistol pe's) won't bother that much as their tc is already at a rather hi lvl and just needs to be boostet a bit.
that's my opinion on that one :)
Leave pe stealth and leave it as the Mr.Jones' missions. Leave it at the same time. They need some sort of stealth.
lets take 2 classes tank and pe
we got the pe with stealth and (usualy exec slasher or xbow), hes got an almost capped TL 10 heal as well
tank have a cs, rav ,dev no stealth and a crapy heal even TL 10 aint that good on a tank.
wich one is better off ? no wonder no one plays tanks now a days
pe is very good even without stealth i dont think they should keep it.
lowtech pes are a whole other matter they really dont have the attack power an exec/xbow pe does
I say leave the stealth alone. Tracking a PE blipping in and out at 9 second intervals isn't really that much of a headache.
I see the problem more as a consequence of the abilities of a nearly capped TL-10 heal and requirements needed to needed to get decent results with an Xbow being too low.
Neither needs to be mega-nerfed - just a bit of minor tweakage to bring things back to a more reasonable state.
the thing is tho without stealth a pe with the same skills would kill a tank.
think tanks need some uppage maybee in stead of nerfing pes, either way something needs to be done
the thing is tho without stealth a pe with the same skills would kill a tank.
think tanks need some uppage maybee in stead of nerfing pes, either way something needs to be done lets ignore the fact that they are spending the next 6 months balancing and pretend it isn't happening :rolleyes:
its not there yet and the question was do pes need stealth. Compared to tanks i dont think they do, compared to spies no as well
remove drugs tbh and all classes (except monks of course) would be even
why not use a requirement like t-c <= 80 to use stealth, would leave the tool to all pe's but the hitech ones and would also promote a bit more of diversity among the pe's, which imho should be able to use all kinds of weapons to a certain degree of effectiveness and really need some advantages to be competitive w other classes if they are lotec/h-c/melee/droner.
its not there yet and the question was do pes need stealth. Compared to tanks i dont think they do, compared to spies no as well
remove drugs tbh and all classes (except monks of course) would be even
Spies ONLY option would be to trade skill.
PEs would not be worth playing.
Monks and tanks would rule the world.
Sounds like a great game :rolleyes: I can't believe someone of your playing experience (since 2002) sees it acceptable to just 'remove drugs'.
Oh dear.
remove drugs tbh and all classes (except monks of course) would be evenI'd love to see you explain how Spies will be balanced without drugs. If Spies are going to PvP without being a droning meatsack, they NEED to use Beast and Nightspider at the very least unless they want a gimped setup. Redflash can be an optional extra, but if Spies are using the high end weapons, as most do, since they rely on their high tech weapons and gadgetry, they're gimped enough as it is on runspeed even after taking Redflash. Every other class is usually faster than a Spy, that's just plain wrong.
Removing drugs isn't a way to make tanks better. As Dogface already said, Spies will stealth whore three times as much, Pistol Spies possibly won't exist without PPU buttpluggs, and there's not really many places to snipe into most OPs with a Silenter Hunter, making Rifle Spies quite useless as well. I guess this leaves tradeskilling and droning. I would be surprised if you would like getting instantly killed without even seeing a drone, or name of the drone on local (ie, REVENGE).
Stealth isn't a problem either, it's partly to do with spells (such as Shelter and the TL10 heal, APU spells - especially Holy Lightning) and just resists themselves that overthrow the balance too much. I find that Stealth is fine, giving PE's access to Stealth II will be almost as bad as removing drugs, it will destroy the Spy class, and PE's being able to Stealth for THAT long is totally dumbfuckingly stupid.
You just proved what i was trying to get at. Stealth stops any victory (by this i mean, a corpse and a quick belt) from happening.
And in a lot of cases on Mars, stealth first gives the PE a chance to suprise you, then about 10 seconds later escape again :rolleyes:
it gives the same chances to a spy. dont talk about nerfing/removing stealth for PE, talk about nerfing/removing stealth. period.
edit: and I dont think it's got to do something with servers as well. you'll find so called "stealth whores" everywhere. whats your name on mars btw?
edit2: I'm all for changing stealth. a while back I posted an idea that you shouldnt be able to stealth when you attacked someone in the last 5-10 seconds, thus making stealth a tool for the first hit, or a tool to avoid a fight at all, but not an escape button whenever you feel like you're losing. this should also apply to synching .. you shouldn't be able to change the sector if you attacked someone in the last 5-10 seconds. savezone whoring is the same thing.
RogerRamjet
16-05-06, 16:17
I never said remove stealth, all i was getting at was the fact that people do use it as an "escape" button. This needs changing, or people need to grow some balls.
And on the stealth whore thing, Mars is the only server ive heard spies constantly referred to as "stealth spies". Not rifle spies, or pistol spies, but "stealth spies", as if thats the only reason people pick that class.
And im not saying my names of chars on Mars. I use them to get away from people on Terra, and have some fun without the constraints of that.
Bugs Gunny
16-05-06, 16:25
And im not saying my names of chars on Mars. I use them to get away from people on Terra
So.... you left me and now you're hiding from me?
Where is the love?????
I wrote this in the Balancing Forum, but have no idea how to link to it, so here's a copy of it...
Consider this:
Make stealth permanent - only way to remove is to use anti-stealth drugs which will make you drug flashed IF you want to re-stealth and un-stealth a lot!
Make level 1 stealth more visible to see (crappy stealth) - inc PE stealth
Make level 2 stealth less visible
Make level 3 stealth near to as it is now
Make Obliterator as it is now
You know it makes sense :)
erm that does make sense tbh, but tracking a stealthing player nowadays isn't too hard anyway and if you nerf the effect too much it will be totally useless against players as they can see your cloud coming near them from far away and already can attack you (which they will in most situations). :(
but mebbe if you make pe stealth like some sort of holo disguise, just altering appearance and faction of the runner and giving him a random name it could be used to infiltrate, at least for a while and wouldn't work as an emergency escape device anymore. i would prefer that most tbh
I never said remove stealth, all i was getting at was the fact that people do use it as an "escape" button. This needs changing, or people need to grow some balls.
then you should like my idea about changing stealth .. about your char, I've got an idea who it is, but I won't tell, dont worry :p
about "stealth spies" on mars.. never heard that expression tbh.
"Escape tools" are good with the classes as inbalanced as they are right now. It makes the fight more fun, people just whine since they can't finish someone off, because they have the common sense to evade being killed. That's what the gadgetry is for. Unless some serious balancing comes along, it should remain this way. Perhaps when balancing does finally happen, putting some anti-escape mechanism in place, such as making Stealth usable only if you're on half health or above, or something to that effect, should come into play.
I wrote this in the Balancing Forum, but have no idea how to link to it, so here's a copy of it...
Consider this:
Make stealth permanent - only way to remove is to use anti-stealth drugs which will make you drug flashed IF you want to re-stealth and un-stealth a lot!
Make level 1 stealth more visible to see (crappy stealth) - inc PE stealth
Make level 2 stealth less visible
Make level 3 stealth near to as it is now
Make Obliterator as it is now
You know it makes sense :)I just took your idea there and came up with this:
As it is now, you gotta be pretty much right in the stealthers face to see the blue stealth cloud.
What if the range where you could see that cloud would decrease with higher TL stealth? I.e. the cloud for stealth 1 can be seen up to 20 meters, stealth 2 up to 15, stealth 3 up to 10 and the obliterator stays the way it is now.
Would prolly help to sort out the stealth issues.
No thanks. That means every Spy would need to be setup to use Stealth III, since it'll be too easy to track them otherwise. This in turn gimps Spies twice as much on the points they can afford to have on Agility. Stealth is supposed to be stealth, not "oh I can see that stealther a mile off, AoE it!". Making a modification to Stealth I perhaps, but Stealth II shouldn't be in the range of PE's in the first place, leave it as is ATM.
I agree with PEs only getting stealth 1.
But theres simply gotta be some changes to spy stealth. And i'm just trying to make up some ideas. :)
I mean i've been playing spy only for ages. And i want it changed in some way. :rolleyes:
I know changes are needed, but not ones that totally destroy the purpose of Stealth. If you can still be seen after "stealthing", it isn't stealth, you'll just be easily followed and gangbanged as soon as you unstealth. This is partly acceptable for Stealth I, since it's used by PE's that (should) have good constitution, but definitely not Stealth II, it's all a Spy has.
The best option I think is stopping people from stealthing with more than Stealth I once they've gone down to n health, ie, less than 150 maybe. Stealth I would have these such visibility issues, where you can still be quite easily seen, but not targetted by non-AoE weapons.
RogerRamjet
16-05-06, 23:26
I know changes are needed, but not ones that totally destroy the purpose of Stealth. If you can still be seen after "stealthing", it isn't stealth, you'll just be easily followed and gangbanged as soon as you unstealth.
Ohnoez, someone might have to carefully plan their escape route instead of running in any random direction. We dont want that.
How can you "plan" an escape route if you're tracked as if you weren't stealthed, since you would see the stealth cloud from a mile off, and then be shot dead by (for example) the almighty Holy Lightning as soon as you unstealth, not to mention being shot after stealthing on your screen with such spells? It's not an escape route, it's a prolonged death. Until such bullshit parts of the game exist, and everything stays unbalanced, it should stay as it is.
I'm not merely saying it so Spies or PE's have an "instant avoid death tool", it's quite the opposite.
Spies ONLY option would be to trade skill.
PEs would not be worth playing.
there was good spies before the drug usage everyone did a spy is suposed to do alot of damage but take very little i thought i know a few spies who dotn drug up and are still very good tho drugs on spies dont make them to good now a days with the heal nerf
and since when is lowtech pes not viable ?? u dont HAVE to use EXEC/slasher/xbow to be a viable pe SERIOUSLY ive seen a good few tsunami/termi pes around and they do good
there was good spies before the drug usage everyone did a spy is suposed to do alot of damage but take very little i thought i know a few spies who dotn drug up and are still very good tho drugs on spies dont make them to good now a days with the heal nerf
and since when is lowtech pes not viable ?? u dont HAVE to use EXEC/slasher/xbow to be a viable pe SERIOUSLY ive seen a good few tsunami/termi pes around and they do good
Spies need drugs to compare to other classes, fullstop.
Comparing the setups of today to back then, there's a huge difference. They just won't be able to compete without drugs. Those spies you say who don't use drugs, those are probably op-war spies. Again, huge difference.
Are you saying that every PE should be running around as a lowtech? I'm not saying lowtech PEs are not viable, but they're not worth playing (in my opinion) with the current resist 'sweetspots'. It doesn't really give any advantage because if you put resists at 112/124 with massive runspeed, it is all shit on by the slowing speed of rifles. Please don't give me 'there's lowtech pistols too' - because we all know they're a waste of techs.
I'm not suggesting every PE should be using xbow, slasher or exec. But the fact still remains that drugs are one of the most important factors in pvp. Removing them will not achieve class balance.
Oh and lowtech PEs still need to drug aswell.
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