View Full Version : Rare items and acquistion thereof
There is a school of thought that some items should be "rare" in an MMORPG, or indeed in any RPG. They should be difficult to aquire and rarely sighted (hence rare). Some Neocron players have even stated that they wish that seeing a swirley on a weapon was rare, but given their necessity to compete for most characters this is clearly impractical.
Perhaps better example of rare items and their implementation exist in Faction Rewards and WoC items. The former are so rare as to be nonexistent and details about them are exceptionally hard to come by. Still, its a great example of what rare items could be. Presumably not too powerful, but distincly different and only awarded to those who have done something that little bit special. Shame that the distribution of medals and rewards is almost non existent. Also, its unreasoanble for all "rare" items to be handed out on subjective basis relying on human representives of the game. The latter however, are interesting. The items themselves are certainly not rare - all aquired from missions, varying from the piss easy, scripted-in-five-minutes Hurler King Knuckles run to the longest-epic-in-the-game Xbow quest. The items are, with the daft exception of the knuckles identifiable as unique on sight. But the "rare" factor comes from getting the XP (which suddenly people could manage very easily- hrmmm) and the WoC disc. So the real 'rare' factor here is the aquisition of the discs (up until recently).
However, the manner in which the discs were made "rare" infuriates me greatly. It was one of the grandest farms in the game, almost as ridiculous as the stupidity that is MC5. You sit around, AoEing the same high-health mobs for hours. Thats it. Its a reward for those who have infinite paticentce and a great many hours to just sink into the game. To me, low drop rates is not the way to make things rare. And inevitably, somebody will farm it to the point that everyone has one.
So what do I suggest? I'd like to see items being rare not as a result of uncomonality of drop, but from difficulty of acquisiton. Instead of going into some cave and farming for a 1 in 1000 chance, you have to take on a task of somewhat ridiculous challenge. genreally speaking, I am thinking of a mission, possibly aquired from somewhere obscure (although wherever it is will be common knowledge eventually). However, the mission should be pitched at length in terms of many hours (4+ I am thinking). However, the challenge level here willl be huge. Tough mobs to overcome, preferably some puzzles with randomly generated elements and this is key - failure conditions. Letting a certain NPC die, breaking a piece of machinery, taking too long over a time-critical task, any of these things and more could result in mission failure. The missions should be designed so as such that failure is the normal. Only experienced players with a suitable team and on a very good and lucky day will make it through. Most people will fail. The item at the end here isnt something you are entitled too, but a just reward for a crowning acheivment. Lets make it so you have to call in the services of others - perhaps an item is fixed up somewhere that needs reseaching, so you have to get a tradeskiller down to some godforsaken pit.
In a similar vein, possibly as part of this, lets have some really hard caves, perhaps as part of aforementioned tasks. Have traps that can take out members or the whole team. Mobs dangerous enough you will be on the back foot. A boss actually worth of the name. Not something ridculius buggy and uncontrollable like the DoY Assault MkII, but reasons to be afriad. A cave where a sucessful run is the exception rathen than the norm.
As an additional note, some kind of anti-zerg measures are necessary, to prevent people just taking 20 members along to guarantee sucess and turning this into some kind of WoW "raid". For the mission/tasks, this shouldn't be an especially major issue.
Erm, thoughts I guess. This is kinda an open letter to KK and anyone who may be interested I suppose. Expresses my feelings about farming to gain items rather than actually DOING anything.
Obsidian X
08-05-06, 16:16
For one thing I wish people will stop calling rares "rares" and call them by their original name of "tech weapons". When I first saw a swirly and someone told me it was a "rare", I was under the impression that it was exactly that, and I would be very very lucky to ever own such a prestigous item.
As for stupidly insane tasks, that have a low success rate for a prestigous reward, I would be all in favour of that. The problem is with NC, is the engine. The engine can only have bosses that are more powerful variants of other mobs. The engine can probably only follow a very linear set of rules for missions. Because of the nature of the mobs in NC, it would be difficult to make a boss that can't be beaten by a PPU+Damage dealer or two. The reason WoW has such bosses is because PvM in WoW (as I understand) is just as much about negative status effects as direct damage. lf there were more negative status effects bosses could use on runners (and indeed runners on mobs) then perhaps this would be feasible, but as PvM stands now, its simply blast, blast, heal, shelter, deflector, rinse and repeat.
One idea I had for high level prestigious content, was to have an NPC spawn randomly in the wastelands, once every month. The first runner to get to that NPC receives a mission (and a damn difficult one at that), and completion of that mission would allow the runner to join Anarchy Breed. Once he's given the mission, the NPC disappears, not to be seen again till his next spawn. That way such a reward would be truly unique.
Well, one of the points in my idea is that aquridring the item isn't just about beating mob - thats never going to be exceptionally hard. Its about performing the entire task, with its myriad chances for failure and indeed difficult combat involved.
As for your idea - that doesn't really give everyobdy a fair chance again. It gives someone who getsx damn lucky at random a chance, or a real wasteland camper. That is what I was trying to get away from with the stupidly low droprate etc.
DarkPhoenix
08-05-06, 16:22
Lets make it so you have to call in the services of others - perhaps an item is fixed up somewhere that needs reseaching, so you have to get a tradeskiller down to some godforsaken pit.[/edit]
This is good. There was a time in SWG where a very large group was required, including most of the crafting professions, to acquire and build 'one piece' of a type of Bounty Hunter armor (the name escapes me.) Several pieces of 'built' armor were needed to create a full set and each piece required materials of varying rarity. Even then, the piece may come out a different color then what you want. So getting a full suit of matching colored armor was very rare. Anyway, the 'cave' was rediculously hard to get through.
heh and even if you did get through it, sometimes a bug would eat all the parts and you'd be left with nothing.
Every once in a blue moon you'd see someone in a full set with an odd color scheme. I think, by the time the game 'died,' only one or two people had a full, matching set. And bedamned if they used it in combat. Same with the useless jetpack.
bring back larent-hovers as a rare & random spawn, boost their stats even more to make sure it really takes 10+ ppl to take it down in less than 30mins... and make them drop something kinky each time they're killed...
voila.. :)
In my opinion rare and tech weapons should be divided, Tech weapons should be made of T parts, you get 0-3 per warbot (usually 1-3), and the rare weapons should be made of E parts in which you can only get 0-1 per warbot with a higher chance of getting a tech from a Titan Warbot then a normal one.
Obsidian X
08-05-06, 16:32
Well, one of the points in my idea is that aquridring the item isn't just about beating mob - thats never going to be exceptionally hard. Its about performing the entire task, with its myriad chances for failure and indeed difficult combat involved.
As for your idea - that doesn't really give everyobdy a fair chance again. It gives someone who getsx damn lucky at random a chance, or a real wasteland camper. That is what I was trying to get away from with the stupidly low droprate etc.
Fair point CMaster, but how do you propose KK make a mission thats difficult and available to all? I don't think it can be done. I don't think its possible to make missions in NC more difficult, only more tedious. Tedium isn't the same as difficulty, and as the games mission structure currently works, the only way I can see it being difficult to earn a truly "rare" item or reward is to make it so that only the truly determined (or lucky) can get it.
My 2 penneth.
Bugs Gunny
08-05-06, 16:37
So, that makes the need for large groups and ppus even greater?
What about the person who roleplays a loner? He'll never be able to get anything.
It's bad enough as it is, with places like mc5 etc requiring a ppu.
as long as the rare-drops are no "must-have" items I really dont see a problem with that, bugs... people who prefer to solo mobs their size would still be free to strawl some other place.
"Must-have" items shall be obtainable for everyone ..it's bad enough as is given the epic rewards importance in PvP.
Hmm I think the NCPD resistor chip/City Mercs resistor chip/Freedom Fighter CPU fit into the catergory of quests that are not a walkover.
Freedom Fighter Quest - Can be solo'ed, but be prepared to spend a fortune on poking bills. Even with a team or a Rhino it will take serveral hours. There is no bad evil boss to beat.
City Mercs - Can be solo'ed, but for the DoY tunnel part you need a team to help. Again there is no bad evil boss to beat, and I think takes about an hour to complete.
NCPD Quest - Can be solo'ed for most of it, but to beat the end boss, you need help. Takes less than an hour to complete.
3 simular items, all very different to do.
I suppose there is one way to make things a little rarer. At the end of the quest, there is a random chance you will get the "Rare item" or you wont. If you get it, you can't do that quest again. However if you don't get the "rare item" you have to wait a few days to do the quest again.
Also who remembers the plans for the Terminator run from NC1? The aim was that you had to find a Strange Book, and then do the Terminator run.
but again the strange book was based around stupid droprates, if the acquisition of the book was different, that would be a good way to work.
So basically change it from people who have infinite patience and great time to spend in a game on a droprate based item, to a person who has infinate patience and great time to spend in the game running a mission over and over?
So, that makes the need for large groups and ppus even greater?
What about the person who roleplays a loner? He'll never be able to get anything.
It's bad enough as it is, with places like mc5 etc requiring a ppu.
There is already plenty for loners to do. Also I'd rather not see any of this for LARGE groups. In fact, a selection of different levels - largely solo, solobut group assitance needed from time to time. grouping througout - implemented. But remeber its a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game - if you don't like working with other people, then go away. Also, as said by Ake'cj - if any of this stuff is going to be at all rare, then it shouldn't be important
I suppose there is one way to make things a little rarer. At the end of the quest, there is a random chance you will get the "Rare item" or you wont. If you get it, you can't do that quest again. However if you don't get the "rare item" you have to wait a few days to do the quest again.
Thats EXACTLY what I want to get away from. The randomness and doing things over and over. Regaurdles of whther the engine can handle it or not, I'm asking for items to be given for ability and perseverence, not blind luck and farmage of some simple task.
So basically change it from people who have infinite patience and great time to spend in a game on a droprate based item, to a person who has infinate patience and great time to spend in the game running a mission over and over?
Not really. Sure, it may take several attempts. But it relies on doing things well, not just repeating the task. If you are really good, you'd only have to try the once.
erm i neither found the ff and cm missi to be very different (kill an amount of mobs, go somewhere, kill some more/kill a guy) nor do you need a team for the last guy of the ncpd chip mission.
tho ncpd was rather nice, the other two were just annoying, especially the ff one, when you have to spend a day searching for enough mobs to kill, just to get to hear great work, now kill some other mobs. :mad:
that kind of mission in my opinion is about the most stupid one could think of, they should include way more puzzling and maybe having to reach some distant places, maybe guarded by strong mobs, but not requiring the player to kill dozens of them.
And i would really appreciate some harder caves, where (good) teamwork is a must. And if balancing works out properly then the strongest team is the one with the most diversity in it, not just the DD/ppu team.
One could for example implement a run where you would have to break into a local database with some hilevel mobs in it, so the team would have to keep a fullhacker alive to complete it. that would be a bit different from most missions now and boost the hacker profession a bit too
Apocalypsox
08-05-06, 17:38
in my personal oppionion, the devs should start patching in new weapons, under coded names, so people dont guess that its a weapon when they check the patch notes. make them Slightly harder to obtain, maybe not only taking the tech parts but another item. ion charger cell or something of the such. this way seeing a new swirly might scare you.
the problem w mmorpg's is that you just cannot make an item extremely rare unless you put in a huge ammount of chance and somewhat chaotic behavior of the mission itself in it, as even the biggest secret becomes common knowledge after a short while
Scanner Darkly
08-05-06, 19:23
I bought my first rare without having any idea about what rares were or how they were made. It was a lovely unmodded Paw of Tiger - kowtow before it's artifact 2 slotted greatness peasants!1!
This was for my melee/heavy hybrid tank ^_^ - clearly I was very good with char setups back then...
I think I even got a couple of kills with the original Bukowski, when I wasn't getting killed by Zoneseek and Andy Constable. Hybrid tanks ftw, ja?!
edit: to actually contribute to the discussion...What would be the definition of a truly rare item? 10 per server? 20? Of course if there was just a few of any one item, it couldn't give too much of an advantage over other players lacking said item (doh) or there'd be endless gyp.
I really liked when the Terminator was the rarest item in NC1 (except perhaps the Dildo of Maven, but that's maybe a little less lethal) and when it was pretty much the most deadly close range gun a spy could use. I especially enjoyed running into Little Terror when I was taking a turn around the wastes and shoving that pink swirly up... you get the picture.
Wonder what happened to that 1 slot explosive Termi built by Firest@r. Anyone still got it?
Wonder what happened to that 1 slot explosive Termi built by Firest@r. Anyone still got it?
If its an NC1 termi the name got wiped in the transfer.
Scanner Darkly
08-05-06, 19:35
Oh yeah, forgot. Mhumph, I guess it's lost in the sands of time.
Don't mean to get too far off the main idea of the thread. But i've never really been a fan of rares. What I loved in Ultima Online was, there were rares, sure. But there were quite a few around where you could find them sometimes, and buy them for not too much.
They weren't too much better than the player made weapons, you always dropped them on death. It was nice because if you could afford them, you could use them for the slight edge it'd give you, but not having them wouldn't be like fighting an xbow pe with your judge.
Sortof like how Neocron was in beta. You'd drop your qb, which would be one item, your gun, medkits, or boosters, or whatever crap you had in there. You could go back out and fight with a generic 2 slot ammo/dmg modded weapon that got the job done, but if you could afford it, you could bust out the 4slot for the extra edge.
Just a big fan of the 'spoils of war'.
Apocalypsox
08-05-06, 20:51
someone beat an Xbow PE in neofrag with a judge yesterday... O_o
Lucid Dream
09-05-06, 01:20
The transition between neocron 1 and 2 made it quite clear that ReaKKtor do not like the idea of truly rare items of both the useful and useless variety. See: Spirit Mods, Dildo of Maven, Biosignature Chips, Encryption Disks, Rust etc.
Perhaps the way to go is improving the weapons made by truly talented constructors. Something that can be implemented, like a sixth slot or taking it higher than Artifact to Master or some such title. But, conditions would have to be just right and obviously a low chance of getting it. The "rares" are after all, relics, and broken and reconstructed ones at that. I truly believe that runner made weapons should have the chance of being better than anything else in the game. This would also rely on talent, luck and knowledge of construction.
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