View Full Version : Stealth tool usage
I'd like to see stealth in safezones.
The stealth tool is not overtly offensive and would not/should not be prevented from "arming" by the copbots(RP) etc in safezones.
I dont see a strong reason to prevent them from being used in safe zones.
In addition I think we should be able to hack again in stealth. If people dont want a stealther hacking their belts then those people should be forced have their belt defended by team mates. You can hit a stealther by AOE or regular guns/melee that can hit stealthers. You can see the stealther if you're close anyway.
I believe that people complained before about losing their belts to stealthed hackers but thats the way it would work in RL with the abilities in NC. I don't see a problem in the first place with stealthed belt hackers anyway.
I'd like to see stealth in safezones.
The stealth tool is not overtly offensive and would not/should not be prevented from "arming" by the copbots(RP) etc in safezones.
I dont see a strong reason to prevent them from being used in safe zones.
In addition I think we should be able to hack again in stealth. If people dont want a stealther hacking their belts then those people should be forced have their belt defended by team mates. You can hit a stealther by AOE or regular guns/melee that can hit stealthers. You can see the stealther if you're close anyway.
I believe that people complained before about losing their belts to stealthed hackers but thats the way it would work in RL with the abilities in NC. I don't see a problem in the first place with stealthed belt hackers anyway.
I also belive that runner should be able to pass through any zone of the city, uninhibited, essentially gaining a free pass through tough zones, to the soft underbelly of teh NPC laden zones for easy symp.
I believe also that spies shouldn't even have to hack, why can't the belt just open for them?
I demand an easy ride for every spy character ingame! :rolleyes:
On the other hand (and I'm a hacking rifle spy), I don't want spies using the obliterator then running across the zone line - therefore not risking much at all.
I also think that hacking should be dangerous.
Agreed hacking while stealthed has to be a no, though it would be nice to know if you're taking damage, I've never played a droner but isn't there some mecganism by where damage taken by the meat sack is noticable on the drone interface? I mean surely you'd notice you're being shot even if you're concentrating really hard on hacking! There's nothing more annoying than being pk'ed while hacking just because people know they can be cowardly and get 10/15 seconds where the victim is unaware they're being attacked.
lol.....that kind of leads this thread in another but related direction.
I dont really think there should be safezones either. But I was trying to work in at least some of the restrictions currently in game.
I think safezone should be removed with the nerfing of ppus. That would allow the guards to actually be effective and actually enforce "safe zones" without artificial "put that away voice of god" enforcement.
This would also bring the level of battle back up in game with raids actually being performed on core city components.
It all circles back around...You dont want to pvp...keep in LE.
But in real response to your post, to me it seems your response is totally unfounded. If you want your belt to not get hacked then defend it/have it defended. A stealther can be attacked. You just need to be near the belt to make sure there's no blue haze.
The soft underbelly statement also makes no sense with current rules. Safezones prevent them from hitting any soft underbelly.<--it's a safe zone
The only purpose of no stealth in safe zone, as far as I understand, is to prevent someone from stealthing OUT from a safezone which is pretty rediculous to me being that stealthing in the safezone is part of STAYING SAFE on the way out...escpecially with zone whores.
I use oblit. I can get anywhere anyway regardless of safezones.
But it's more of a principle based arguement than a "I cant do what I want" arguement. You should be able to stealth anywhere because the stealth is not overtly offensive.
Not being able to stealth in a safezone is annoying...but using oblit I can still get where I need by jumping into a non Safezone for a second, then comming back through where I wanted.<-----the annoyance is not the point or support for this thread, but Spermy tried to focus on it like the thread was brought about by someone whining because they cant do what they want..not the case.
Again its the principle of it.
On the other hand (and I'm a hacking rifle spy), I don't want spies using the obliterator then running across the zone line - therefore not risking much at all.
I also think that hacking should be dangerous.
You can do that with the oblit anyways...just run into the retail area at MB oblit then come back up...you still have like 30-45 seconds of stealth. Your not risking anything anyway.
I believe thats the point to stealth in the first place...not to risk anything/not be seen. Stealthing is made exactly for that purpose.
You need to look at it and not look at all the zone whoring. You're worried that the guy wont have to TAKE DAMAGE WHILE SYNCING BECAUSE OF ZONE WHORES. I think zoneline whoring needs to be countered with stealthing.
Some people with slower computers take longer to sync. Means unfair disadvantage. It's jsut plain unfair anyway to take damage while syncing.
Hacking isn't just about belts, though... would you want a trio of spies with obliterators running up to the hack term of an op you owned just so they can snag it from under your nose while you're standing there unable to do a damn thing? Bear in mind not everybody can do AoE damage.
You should definitely be able to see your health while you're hacking, though, and I'm with you on the safezone thing. It also shouldn't be unsafe for a PPU to remove a malus from their bodies... antipara, antidote, damageblocker... why are these things considered weapons?
I see the concern with the oblited spies.....
but,
1)It takes roughly 1 1/2 minutes to hack the term for each layer(including reset time)...plenty of time to come out of stealth multiple times.
2)People should actively be defending their ops anyways when they are being hacked.
3)Not everyone does AOE damage but there are plenty of people who can, and a couple of non-AOE that can attack stealthed.
4)There are ppus with truesight INSTA-NON-STEALTH
5)Battle should not be as one dimensional as it is now with the only tactic being uber buffed uber strong (defensively and offensively) people running around hammering each other. More options = more interesting.
6)Hopefully with balancing there will be anti stealth technology introduced also
I guess I dont really see the concern with oblited spies...I jsut didn't want you to think I insta-Your-Wrong responded. I am thinking this out and have thought it out.
well IMO hacking while stealthed is.. erm.. how do i say this..? stupid..? yes i see the idea " lets hack belts/ops and only 50% of the ppl running around can dmg us.." yay for that :rolleyes:
People need to look at the logical fact.
It would piss people off, and be incredibly fustrating if you dont have a PPU so you just have to stand there whilst some enemy hacks your OP, maybe even politely ask him to stop.
Stealth is supposed to be used for infiltration, so far I just see it being used as a way to escape death (I never see anyone else do it but if I see an enemy at wherever, I usually buff up, stealth, run towards him then reappear right infront of his face, as well as scaring the shit out of him it takes him completely by surprise). So in my opinion this idea would just enhance the wrong type of use.
If you're going to hack you should be prepared for the possibility of being killed too get an item out of someones belt.
I really don't know why Stealth isn't allowed to be used in safe zones to begin with. It doesn't technically harm you and definitely won't harm anyone else, the only thing it does is add to your drugflash, and you're able to take drugs wherever you like. At the moment, if you're travelling through your enemies City Sector (ie, safe zone), it's very easily doable with Stealth I if you have decent enough runspeed.
There's way too many newbie quest/levelling zones to whore yourself into, where you can simply stealth, zone, and carry on to the next nearest zone where you can restealth and therefore resume your journey at ease. It's just a load of hassle really, that will end up screwing you over when the sync crap starts to happen.
Hacking while stealthed... errr, no. Most of the obvious reasons have already been mentioned.
I don't care if stealthing was allowed in safezones.
But definitly against hacking in stealth. Theres no need for that.
RogerRamjet
18-04-06, 23:42
wtf, hacking in stealth??
As if belt hacking isn't lucrative enough already.
People need to look at the logical fact.
It would piss people off, and be incredibly fustrating if you dont have a PPU so you just have to stand there whilst some enemy hacks your OP, maybe even politely ask him to stop.
Stealth is supposed to be used for infiltration, so far I just see it being used as a way to escape death (I never see anyone else do it but if I see an enemy at wherever, I usually buff up, stealth, run towards him then reappear right infront of his face, as well as scaring the shit out of him it takes him completely by surprise). So in my opinion this idea would just enhance the wrong type of use.
If you're going to hack you should be prepared for the possibility of being killed too get an item out of someones belt.
Crazy....there's way too many ways to hit the stealther while hes hacking.
It takes a single guy with AOE gun
OR
1 guy with a regular gun that can hit stealth.
OR
one ppu with truesight and a fighter to kill him
OR
an APU with AOE spell
The main thing to notice here is that the stealther is standing still unable to see you attacking him in hack at the term. It is NOT DIFFICULT to find him like this. It's the blue haze somewhere directly around the hackterm.
There's 4 easy ways to kill a stealther hacking an OP. The hacker is standing still, prone. You find him in a matter of seconds if hes hacking. NOT DIFFICULT AT ALL. If you aren't willing to defend your OP it's your fault.
If hes running around then it doesn't matter...it's not hurting you, he's just wasting his own time.
Being too difficult to hurt him or having half the people running around un-damageable is not a defense against my proposition. Your misdirecting people.
You guys aren't thinking.
Hacking in stealth would be unfair for several reasons, most of them already mentioned above.
On the other hand, stealthing within a savezone and also using it to sneak out of one makes good sense to me. Those people who complain about it should consider these things:
- Using the zoning to kill people basically is an abuse of game mechanics. The person moving out is vulnerable for some time and not able to defend himself.
The GMs here are rather soft and lenient, i know several other games where such abuse of game mechanics would lead to immediate and permanent banishment. (And if they are thorough, not only one character or account is affected but all accounts with the same bank account information as the cheaters account. )
- The stealthtool would merely be a way of avoiding to be caught by such abuse. Honestly, if you play it fair, you give the spy the 3 seconds necessary to be able to act after zoning. Which allows the spy to use the stealth-tool right after zoning, too.
- People currently have the habbit to buff heavily before leaving a savezone. This can only be observed at the areas where zoning-griefing is a common occurance. If it is possible to completely prepare for combat inside the savezone, i also see little problems in preparing to leave in a save way.
Thus, i would support the stealthing within savezones suggestion. The stealthed hacking would have massive abuse-potential, the possible gain is not big enough to warrant such a change.
The same reply can be made against belt hacking. But I do realise this is more of a stretch(not because of a lack in the arguement but because it will piss more people off).
Just because it will piss people off does not make it wrong.
Apocalypsox
19-04-06, 00:07
*agrees with Kryn* you guys must be fawking STOOPID jeesus think about this- EVERY CLASS BUT MELEE HAS A WEAPON THAT CAN HIT THE STEALTHERZ
(dont say rifles im a damned 3 year vet sniper, USE A DAMNED FIRST LOVE DUMFAWK)
lets see
CS
FL
AoE barrel
Xbow/Jude
True-Sight for ze ppu
melees...cant as far as my knowledge goes.
THATS 1 DAMAGE CLASS THAT CANT DO IT thats what...1 person that is pure melee and didnt go hyb? yeah
*agrees with Kryn* you guys must be fawking STOOPID jeesus think about this- EVERY CLASS BUT MELEE HAS A WEAPON THAT CAN HIT THE STEALTHERZ
(dont say rifles im a damned 3 year vet sniper, USE A DAMNED FIRST LOVE DUMFAWK)
lets see
CS
FL
AoE barrel
Xbow/Jude
True-Sight for ze ppu
melees...cant as far as my knowledge goes.
THATS 1 DAMAGE CLASS THAT CANT DO IT thats what...1 person that is pure melee and didnt go hyb? yeah
To be fair, who gives a rats arse? If you can't see the cloud, in an OP furball no less, how are you supposed to use said skills.
It's shit as it is, the way it works needs a whole rehash.
Apocalypsox
19-04-06, 00:19
i agree it needs a rehash, but what in the game dont tbh. but who in their right minds wouldnt be able to see stealth in an op. thats like them not seeing my non-swirly silent hunter on the hill behind their op shooting them in the ass until there all dead :wtf: to op you gotta be able to see that kinda shit, or your dead
i agree it needs a rehash, but what in the game dont tbh. but who in their right minds wouldnt be able to see stealth in an op. thats like them not seeing my non-swirly silent hunter on the hill behind their op shooting them in the ass until there all dead :wtf: to op you gotta be able to see that kinda shit, or your dead
Because among the sanctums, the stacks and inevitable framekill being spat out by the ubiquitous Devourer, it's hard to pick out. ANd yes, I am aware that stealth is not to be picked out.
Which kinda renders the " just AOE" comment void.
As for the SH? Meh, overrated :p
And since i forgot to mention it, some poster above noted that the Droner can see his health-status while flying his drone... i also would support if the hacker would have a small healthbar somewhere on the screen.
Just being able to notice when getting attacked while hacking would be incredibly valuable. (It's just too annoying, you hack a warbot and when you are done, you have to find that a new one spawned and took some free attacks on you while you were hacking and just kills you when you finish the hack... )
Yes to stealth in safe zones
Yes to Health bar in Stealth
No to Hacking while in stealth
(but i think copbots, etc. should be able to see thru stealth)
Because among the sanctums, the stacks and inevitable framekill being spat out by the ubiquitous Devourer, it's hard to pick out. ANd yes, I am aware that stealth is not to be picked out.
Which kinda renders the " just AOE" comment void.
As for the SH? Meh, overrated :p
Spermy...the stealther your looking for in the case of a stealthed OP hacker is the one DIRECTLY AT THE HACKTERM.
Your making it seem like you can't run around the hackterm and see a blue haze.....
You dont need to worry about stealthers running around the OP (your misdirecting people again). The ones running around the OP are already doing so.
I am talking about allowing hacking in stealth. The only place you would do that is at the Hackterm. You only need to worry about the stealthers HACKING THE OP with this modification. There is only a small location they could be to be hacking...inside the hack room. Finding them wouldn't be the problem.....
Out of curiosity why is everyone agains't belt hacking in stealth?...It makes me think you are carrying around too many expensive things at the same time....You guys carrying around 3 5-slotters at a time?
I think people are so agains't it because they are carrying around too much and because people are afraid they will actually lose their belts when they drop a belt with negative soul light.<---I know that was stupid:)
Well....as it is your belt pretty much gets hacked anyways. Those who are on the losing team send a teamed stealther or tank out to get it anyways (you get it back regardless of hacking). Or people wait till the battle subsides and hack belts.
The only real difference is when you lose your belt...not if.
Explain why it's unfair if you say it is...if your not going to explain then stop posting.
Deus Ex Machina
19-04-06, 03:33
Stealthing in Safezones is a bit of a problem...
As a Spy I would like it, but then again when you see an enemy getting out of stealth in your safezone and you can't do anything about it it's enough already. Sure in Plaza 1 your likely to be under attack as soon as that happens, but in the City Center most places are empty of Guards, and this would create too much of an safe area I think.
Well to be honest instead of making stealthing possible in Safezones I would remove safezones, but since I fear that is not going to happen.. well hard decision, even for me as a spy - cause the enemy has spies too ;)
[As a sidenote: I can't believe my Char obeys a Copbot to put away his weapon, it's just stupid, I really would like to have that voice removed/changed]
And concerning hacking in stealth...
NO !!!
Thats just stupid, when I consider the things I could do with that in place...
"everyone has a weapon that can shoot throug the stealth" - yeah sure:
IF he has one of that type the question is:
WHERE the damn thing is
I know I don't carry around all my arsenal at once, and considering the findings in belts no one does. In an Op fight that MAY be less of a concern, but getting your weapon does need time, maybe more than the spy needs to hack through, and then he vanishes again, cause to follow a stealthed one around isn't really easy.
And when you are in the wastlands the next GR is miles away, and even then hacking should be a a threat to the hacker - how many people have measures against hacking with them deep in the wastes?
As a Spy I warn you: Don't let me Hack while stealthing!
:angel:
Sgt. Pepper
19-04-06, 04:03
well a big YES to stealth in safezones, cause this is the spie's main defence (like PPUs have their SD)
but stealthed hacking should never be possible. Hacking has to be dangerous, cause its an offence action, and anyone has to be able to do something against it.
well if the stealth hacker lets u find him then he's newb too...
its called standing behind the term =p
the collision for hte hackterm is limited to the screen; so if u bluehaze into the back of the graphic like most people do, then hack, no one can see u because the haze is obstructed by the rest of the noncollidable part of the hackterm.
so yeah... using anything in stealth is just useless tbh... not to mention it would promote even MORE stealth whoring (which is already bad enough now tbh)...
but the rest of the stealth in safezone thing isnt too bad imo...
ahhh....didn't know about the stealth hackterm thingy....I can see that then. But still at an OP war if you dont have an AOE damage dealer there you aren't going to get the OP anyway.
I don't see too many people dropping extremely expensive stuff in their belts anyway but everyone seems to be so up in arms about it.
So...I'll be happy if stealth is allowed in safezones but there is no stealthed hacking ability
You can hit a stealther by AOE or regular guns/melee that can hit stealthers.na, melee can't.. don't allow hacking while stealthed that's just stupid.. stealthing in safezones is fine (less zoneline whoring).
Although I think with less effect from ppu's, and guards given decent damage (no boring para) we should remove all safezones and maybe put TH turrets that act like twister guards (and seriously hurt as well) around the GR area, we don't need the voice of god telling us not to draw weapons.. does anyone draw a weapon at twisters? no.. use it for the rest of the world =p
wow just a thought but how about.
drt - next turrets near the gr - not sure if it would react to there being a gunner in a vhc driving past, if that's a problem, move the gr maybe?
crest village - random psi monks around that use fire apoc like spells
elfarid village - err nomad traders with stupidly overpowered psi attack 4 spell that insta-kill's anyone with a weapon near the gr? or droms...
th - turrets inside at the gr's and shops in th2 and in the auction(?) hall in th3
battledome - city mercs guards with seriously overpowered gatlin cannons
mb sec-1 - same as above @ gr's, shops and apts
plaza1 - STORM bots brought in as extra protection across the sector
doy cc - fine as it is really.. (just unsafezone it ofc)
there was another 2 i was thinking of placing but these would be only attacking certain factions, not whoever has a weapon out..
crp - make the canyon reload point a public gr again but stick a group of tg and doy guards around that tower and give doy the advantage at cycrow.. (yeah it's overpowered).. but...
jeriko fortress - put stormbots right by the gr.. or build up another op sector near to nc and give them another public gr and add a new cave that's good for pro-city lvling (equal to crp).
and ye that does look quite a mess, but it's readable =p
lose the stupid godly voice "drop that weapon" and give us real guards (no safezones)
Bugs Gunny
19-04-06, 12:40
Krynstone, hacking an oplayer takes me between 16-30 seconds.
Obliterating spies or 30s stealth spies hacking is just plain dumb.
Hacking is and should be dangerous.
Maybe stealthing should be allowed in safezones, especialy with the mad amount of copbots in neocron city.
Remove Stealth from PEs, no stealth in safezones and keep it so you cant hack in stealth, they are trying to balance the game not make spys who can stealth overpowerd, it makes you invisable what more do you want :rolleyes:
Remove Stealth from PEs, no stealth in safezones and keep it so you cant hack in stealth, they are trying to balance the game not make spys who can stealth overpowerd, it makes you invisable what more do you want :rolleyes:
Heh this sounds familar like the PE stealth debate 2-3 years ago.
Would hardly make stealth overpowered, but thats beside the point issues like this ie proper tweaking, can't be really finalised until KK's finished adding all this new content they've proposed in the balancing forums, TBH balacing shouldn't include addition of new content unless its going to be done in sequence, ie en masse add new content... the game may become screwed for a short while but then the dev team would just focus on balancing (not adding new stuff) with the existing enviroment. Once its balanced it becomes far more easier to add new stuff and predict how it will effect balance and tweak appropriately
[...]Once its balanced it becomes far more easier to add new stuff and predict how it will effect balance and tweak appropriately
Wrong. Balancing has to be done after new stuff is added, not before it. (If something actually is balanced, any new stuff would have to actually do nothing to not disturb balance...)
Wrong. Balancing has to be done after new stuff is added, not before it. (If something actually is balanced, any new stuff would have to actually do nothing to not disturb balance...)
Read the entiriety of my post realise i said what you just said, and don't let the door hit ya on the way out, that quote was from the part where i was saying after the proposed new content was added and then the game was balanced it would be easier to add currently un imagined stuff to the game as it would be easier to predict what it might effect in terms of balance
Thanks for the oh so nice words. While i didn't quote your complete posting, i dare to say that i completely read it before.
I still hold my point of view to be true, first add new stuff, then balance it out. Anything added in after the big official balancing is done will be troublesome again.
Anyways, this is slowly drifting off topic. I for myself would summ up on topic:
- stealthing within savezones doesn't sound like a real problem or balancing issue and should be enabled.
- a health display while being in the hacking screen would be great and the earlier we have that, the happier many hackers would be.
- several people explained why hacking while stealthed could be unfair. I dare to add that i spent some time watching people fight each other while being stealthed and nobody hurt me. (Stealthtool III and paying attention to the timer was enough not to get caught in hostile fire.) Would i have had the option to hack while stealthed, i would have cleared many belts without being noticed since people were still busy killing each other.
lol...Bugs....note that I said I was including the 60 second reset timer.....you dolt:).
You can't hack the layer i less than ~1:30 with the reset.
Being able to stealth in a safe zone, yeah I'm all for that one.
Being able to hack while stealthed, no I don't agree with that one. I think everyone has stated all the reasons that I would had made.
The rest of this post is a C&P&E from the balance forum http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1966114&postcount=94 so excuse me if everyone else has seen it.
I think the stealth tool is a method of infiltration. You stealth to your target, you unstealth and kill your target, and stealth out. I do not think it should be used as a method to get away from the fight when you have been outgunned or outclassed in a fight.
How about making the length of the stealth dependant on your health?
If you are low on health, the stealth effect wont last as long. From what I remember of the description on how the stealth tool works, it pumps some ugly blue stuff into you that makes you appear transparent. Yet by some miracle, even when you are on 2 health, you body can handle this?
If you are low on health, the stealth effect wont last as long. From what I remember of the description on how the stealth tool works, it pumps some ugly blue stuff into you that makes you appear transparent. Yet by some miracle, even when you are on 2 health, you body can handle this?
Don't bank on that ridiculous explanation. Even forget the biological background. (I read the explanation... if you have some basic understanding of biology, you read it as "the skin color will change while the person dies a painful death". )
Rather just explain to me how any drug in your bloodstream turns your hair, clothes, weapon and armour invisible. If you want any logic in it, it's most likely to be a setup of sensors and some holographic display.
Alternatively you could imagine it to be some machine-created psi-effect which actually affects the minds of people around or assume it to be some very controled gravitation effect. (Some form of gravitation lens to guide the light around you... would be a technical nightmare to actually build since gravitation affects all mass, but still more logical than an infusion into your bloodstream.)
Really, almost anything is more logical than a drug unless stealthing would require you to leave all equipment (weapons, armours, implants, psi-glove, etc. ) behind.
And last not least, except the problem with savezones i consider the stealthtool to be pretty fine at the moment. It's a useful tool but certainly not overpowered. I haven't heard of bad "spy-whoring" or anything like that and if the user doesn't understand what he's doing, he's even easier to be killed when using it than without.
If you want to get all scientific, how about those ceramic shutters they use in high speed cameras. Just imagine that technology (opaque to clear and vice versa) insanely more advanced to apply to normal materials, including flesh. Then you have the basis for nanites or other good stuff altering the properties of whatever they are near to make them transparent on demand. And the timer could be related to the energy required to do so, after a certain amount of time, the nanites simply have no more stored energy, and *poof* visible again.
Hate it Brammers. Spies NEED to use stealth to escape. Stealth isn't JUST a tool to stealth TO your enemy, it's also used to EVADE your enemy. This is the entire point to being a Spy since they have low Con compared to every other class. People just whine about it because they think it's too hard to follow stealthers when they're nearly dead and trying to finish them off. These people whine about people who evade death by stealthing, yet you'll always see them clip whoring wherever possible so they can do exactly the same thing, which is basically cheating the game.
Knew it wouldn't be long before this thread went away from it's specific topic and went onto the "omg nerf stealth" nonesense. Stealth's negative effect is bad enough as it is. Using stealth with drugs will usually give you bad drugflash (since stealth gives you a miniscule amount of drugflash each time you use it), which will almost get you killed if your enemy is chasing you and you get back drugflash, and unable to do anything, you're buggered. The second to last time I died I was at Cycrow and got incredibly bad drugflash, relogging didn't help, took 3 drugs, then relogged, stuck in sync, relogged again, dead. I had been killed by a Revenge. lol
@Sylow and @Glok
Ok the science may be flawed, but have a bit of imagination I was trying to bit of a RP tint on it. :confused:
So lets ignore the science, and come to straight to the point which I was trying to get across.
The main point is if you are low on health, the stealth effect shouldn't last the full length. eg if you are on 75% or more health, you can use the full 30 seconds of the stealth on a stealth 3. However if you got 10% health left, this time gets reduced to say 5 seconds.
Bugs Gunny
19-04-06, 16:37
I usualy have no problem tracking the 10s stealthers.
They have to do some very non logical movement or get lucky to get away.
It's once they have 30s and longer that they almost allways get away.
And it's not realy 10 seconds either, it takes a bit for you to pull your tool, then about a second before it actualy activates and you're visible to others about 1-2 seconds before it wears off on your screen.
Ok the science may be flawed, but have a bit of imagination I was trying to bit of a RP tint on it. :confused:
That's exactly one of the reasons why i oppose the given idea of drugs making you invisible. If you don't RP but only take it as a tool to be invisible, the drugs are as good for an explanation as anything else.
If you go the RP approach, you have to consider what it would do if the description would be valid. And it would require you to use it only when having no equipment along at all.
The main point is if you are low on health, the stealth effect shouldn't last the full length. eg if you are on 75% or more health, you can use the full 30 seconds of the stealth on a stealth 3. However if you got 10% health left, this time gets reduced to say 5 seconds.
And here i agree with Unreal, i dislike this idea. As said before, if the user doesn't know what he's doing, he's even more dead than without.
Just as an example, I lately had a crossbow-spy trying to take me down. I stealthed out, found myself a nice place and let him have it when he was looking for me.
His reaction also was to stealth, but since he apparently relied more on his crossbow than on thinking, his route of escape was clear from the very first moment he started moving. My rocket pistol gave him some hurting while he ran and when he unstealthed i could have used a wet towel instead of my BoH to finish him.
I admit, would he have thought for a second about what he was doing, he would have branched off at a good corner to let me run past, turned around and run in the opposite direction or anything like that. Still, the stealthtool is only a tool, you still need to outsmart our opponent to use it successfully.
Thus, at least in my eyes, it does exactly what it should. Not being able to use weapons or psi (and definitely no psi-healing, you could as well just paint yourself in red if you have active psi-healing while stealthed) and the problems with drugs when the stealth-effect ends are fair drawbacks, i would say. Useful but not too mighty.
Bugs Gunny
19-04-06, 16:56
Ever had your drugs run while in stealth? Nice effect there.
You come out of stealth but on your screen you still are.
Hate it Brammers. Spies NEED to use stealth to escape. Stealth isn't JUST a tool to stealth TO your enemy, it's also used to EVADE your enemy. This is the entire point to being a Spy since they have low Con compared to every other class. People just whine about it because they think it's too hard to follow stealthers when they're nearly dead and trying to finish them off. These people whine about people who evade death by stealthing, yet you'll always see them clip whoring wherever possible so they can do exactly the same thing, which is basically cheating the game.
Knew it wouldn't be long before this thread went away from it's specific topic and went onto the "omg nerf stealth" nonesense. Stealth's negative effect is bad enough as it is. Using stealth with drugs will usually give you bad drugflash (since stealth gives you a miniscule amount of drugflash each time you use it), which will almost get you killed if your enemy is chasing you and you get back drugflash, and unable to do anything, you're buggered. The second to last time I died I was at Cycrow and got incredibly bad drugflash, relogging didn't help, took 3 drugs, then relogged, stuck in sync, relogged again, dead. I had been killed by a Revenge. lol
Ok putting asside the game bugs, clippping issues, netcode issues. That leaves, not a lot.
Lets put it another way. If a tank, PE, (Without stealth) or monk gets to a target and gets spotted, he's dead. If a spy sneaks in, unstealths, and spots he's about to be targetted, and gets out before getting hit, fair play. To use the stealth tool to escape death at the last second, I think needs to be questioned.
P.S. My post isn't intended as a OMFG Nerf Stealth argument, it's my thoughts on the stealth tool. Let's face it, the two questions asked by the thread starter have been answered many times, I'm just wanting to throw in my 2nc's to make this discussion a little more interesting, or sometimes a little warmer. ;)
Brammers, I wasn't trying to rebut your idea at all, just adding a little science (real science) into the mix. :p
I actually think the shorter stealth with less health is a great idea. RP sense or not, it would definitely put a dent in stealth whoring, while still allowing the use of stealth 'as it was intended' (though I don't think any of us really know KK's intentions on that one), to sneak around evading detection.
What about making the stealther hittable by all weaponry.
Not visibly targetable...just hittable. So rifles wouldn't "reticle" on the stealther and neither would anything else. They just have to fire blindly.
But if it hits then the spy comes out of stealth.
I'm thinking only temporary unstealth like 5 seconds.
Someone mentioned it in the spy rebalance thread before and i really liked the idea....
What do you guys think about that?...
This makes sense with the drug thing because it wouldn't make a person invincible...only untargetable.
This way it gives everyone a way to track stealthers...regardless of gun in general..though I am aware that rifles fire god knows where if not "reticled".
If we took the stealth tool and made it inject nanites that generate a field then we could allow spies that are allowed to use weapons and other items in stealth but temporarily unstealth with each action <pulling weapons or any item from quickbelt, firing weapon, hacking> for about 5-10 seconds.
The unstealth temp period could be adjustable for each kind of action.
5 seconds per shot fired.
5 seconds for item pulled from quickbelt or inventory. <drugs not included>
10 seconds for hacking.
Pulling an item from your belt or inventory or the trigger of a gun is easy.
Hacking requires continuous figiting and touching of a non-stealthed object.
The RP edge on this would be that lots of actions unstabilize the generated light bending field. So the runner could use stuff while stealthed but the field is temporarily destabilized.
It would reqiure some explanation as to why the runner is able to run but I'm sure we could figure that out.
If we took the stealth tool and made it inject nanites that generate a field then we could allow spies that are allowed to use weapons and other items in stealth but temporarily unstealth with each action <pulling weapons or any item from quickbelt, firing weapon, hacking> for about 5-10 seconds.
The unstealth temp period could be adjustable for each kind of action.
5 seconds per shot fired.
5 seconds for item pulled from quickbelt or inventory. <drugs not included>
10 seconds for hacking.
Pulling an item from your belt or inventory or the trigger of a gun is easy.
Hacking requires continuous figiting and touching of a non-stealthed object.
The RP edge on this would be that lots of actions unstabilize the generated light bending field. So the runner could use stuff while stealthed but the field is temporarily destabilized.
It would reqiure some explanation as to why the runner is able to run but I'm sure we could figure that out.
Now that I actually like. I'm against belt hacking while stealthed in principle, but we would get used to it, I'm sure, plus 10 seconds unstealthed at the start of the hack is a long time.
What about making the stealther hittable by all weaponry.
Not visibly targetable...just hittable. So rifles wouldn't "reticle" on the stealther and neither would anything else. They just have to fire blindly.
But if it hits then the spy comes out of stealth.
I'm thinking only temporary unstealth like 5 seconds.
Either that or you see "ripples" in the air where the bullets have hit the stealther. (Think of The Matrix and bullet time when the bullets leave a ripple in the air)
I agree with you brammers but I'm thinking the game engine cant do ripples:)
Heh the engine can't even handle flashlights properly. Much to my dismay, I like having the brightness down low for the gritty dark look, but some areas are practically no go zones because of that.
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