View Full Version : Neocrons polygonal efficiency
Sucks, let me explain.
Its obvious this game cant handle graphics processing very well, theres some games which have 2x more graphical content with higher poly models and higher resolution textures, and they run better then Neocron 2 does. Plus its obvious the overall poly count is kept low, this is done well (its a shame it has to be done in the first place), but KK have overlooked a lot of simple things.
Lets simplify it and look at the cables in the Dome:
http://www.com40radio.com/misc/ncthread/pipe.JPG
As you can see they are made fairly low poly, not very smooth at all, very few polygons, now this is right in your face as you walk past, I’ve noticed it many times. The same is with the rubble on the floor, it’s a basic non smooth shape with few polygons, it’s on the floor and in your face as you walk past.
While it impairs the overall graphical look of the game, it keeps polygons low and therefore increases the Frames Per Second etc.
This is all good and well until you look up, and there it is:
http://www.com40radio.com/misc/ncthread/waste1.JPG
This is in my field of view at eye level and when I move around, it’s a sort of box section pipeline. Is it of any use?, no, is it an integral part of the game in you’re field of view?, no, is it sitting there out of the way consuming graphical power to render all those polygons when KK have went out of their way to make a shitty looking cable?, of course.
Another example, the doors. Here is two types of doorway entrance into another zone, isn’t much to notice, just looks like a door, something you wouldn’t give much attention too compared to other certain parts of the scene which are low poly, but on closer inspection, that’s right.
http://www.com40radio.com/misc/ncthread/door1.JPG http://www.com40radio.com/misc/ncthread/door2.JPG
They don’t have a box section as the doorframe, ohh no; they have a completely unnoticeable chamfer, which doubles the polygons on the door. The same with the second picture, they have made the frame extrude from the door, creating about 4x as many polygons, which is unnoticeable unless you really look harder.
http://www.com40radio.com/misc/ncthread/doorwaste.JPGhttp://www.com40radio.com/misc/ncthread/doorwaste2.JPG
Another thing, the box, you find a lot of these around, a lot of them are even at Outposts, where fights can happen with many people who sometimes have system performance issues, but if you look harder.
http://www.com40radio.com/misc/ncthread/box1.JPG
They have put an almost completely unnoticeable frame around the box, it may only be a very small frame but the engine still has to process these vertices whenever the box is there.
http://www.com40radio.com/misc/ncthread/boxwaste.JPG
Now this is all really no big deal, but if KK noticeably decrease the polygons in for example the cable, and the rubble on the floor etc for performance, but leave ridiculously unnecessary things in the game which consume resources, what’s the point. I know its only a couple of things too, but I’m sure there’s more.
So, if this is the case, make parts of the scene which are in view a lot, a bit better looking, and things which are hardly noticeable, less thirsty on resources, so to speak.
have to agree with you, but add the ugly trees in there as well.
Apocalypsox
11-04-06, 07:16
neocron has always needed an engine replacement. just wait for one of these patches to do the equivelant of sugar in ur cars gastank.
uh, someone learned the word "poly"? :p
seriously .. the stuff in your list is not worth mentioning. I agree the Tekktonik engine has some trouble with quite a few tasks ...but a handfull of additional polys are no problem at all. If anything, the playermodels are an issue ...but again, Tekktonik doesnt do too bad in that regard. A prime problem would be processing animated sprites tho' ...thats a real fps killer: animated grass, devourer..etc.
The world and statics are even too lowpoly imo...
oh... before I forget:how's your mmorpg progressing nowadays? :D
uh, someone learned the word "poly"? :p
seriously .. the stuff in your list is not worth mentioning. I agree the Tekktonik engine has some trouble with quite a few tasks ...but a handfull of additional polys are no problem at all. If anything, the playermodels are an issue ...but again, Tekktonik doesnt do too bad in that regard. A prime problem would be processing animated sprites tho' ...thats a real fps killer: animated grass, devourer..etc.
The world and statics are even too lowpoly imo...
oh... before I forget:how's your mmorpg progressing nowadays? :D
If a handful of additional polys are no problem at all (which they shouldnt be), then KK either:
A). Purposely make certain models low poly for a lower polygon scene
B). Purposely make crap looking models, for some unknown reason
But its no big deal and still I dont know why I made this thread again since it was almost 6am in the morning and I hadnt slept, but im sure I had a fair and intellectual point to make.
I think I actually made this thread purely because it bugged me how the cables suck, if I remember right.
If a handful of additional polys are no problem at all (which they shouldnt be), then KK either:
A). Purposely make certain models low poly for a lower polygon scene
B). Purposely make crap looking models, for some unknown reason
In games, everyone tries to keep the polycount as low as somewhat possible. The gliders/carriers as an example are low-poly models too... so are the new guns ...BUT... the extreme low poly stuff dates back to early nc1. The newer models arent that pathetic anymore and imo they are far from being crap. the art dept at KK is skilled at what they do.
In games, everyone tries to keep the polycount as low as somewhat possible. The gliders/carriers as an example are low-poly models too... so are the new guns ...BUT... the extreme low poly stuff dates back to early nc1. The newer models arent that pathetic anymore and imo they are far from being crap. the art dept at KK is skilled at what they do.
Thats true,
Im just getting at why these models have not been optimised, it seems like the doors and boxes etc are something KK made in the very early stages of development before they even realised the realistic concept of keeping required resources too a minimum based on their engine.
For example they have these almost unnoticable frames around boxes, and about 4-6 boxes stacked up at a time, but they make rubble on the floor a 3 sided shape and it looks naff, I just wonder why they didnt make it look a bit better.
For example they have these almost unnoticable frames around boxes, and about 4-6 boxes stacked up at a time, but they make rubble on the floor a 3 sided shape and it looks naff, I just wonder why they didnt make it look a bit better.
Ah but you will notice the newer zones have much higher poly counts, such as the tiki club and electric vibes, i've been lead to believe in the past that the DoY maps are very old bits of mapping dating back to early Neocron 1 retail, as an example look how old the news reports are of the DoY apps which were on the NC1 website for a long time.
This can be one of the reasons for the -as you put it- naff looking rubble.
Im just getting at why these models have not been optimised, it seems like the doors and boxes etc are something KK made in the very early stages of development before they even realised the realistic concept of keeping required resources too a minimum based on their engine.
guess I wasnt clear up there...
the crates as are nowadays, are in fact newer models and thus have a few more polys >>because altho it makes sense to avoid high polycounts the engine is very well capable of rendering more than a single brush per object<<
The old crates consisted of one single brush .. the newer models (post evol 2.1) have a little more depth - which is no problem and does not decrease performance noticable but looks a lil better than the old crates used to.
The CM door model however is very old ..and imo looks crap.
Point is: the "waste of ressources" in your list up there is not relevant to performance unless you'd spam thousands of those models in a viewframe. A single player or weapon model equals a mass of those statics (crates, doors, pipes etc..). Making the crate prettier did not have a negative effect on the overall performance (at least non that you'd notice anyway).
tekktonic nowadays (also considering the overall clientside performance increasment ...cpu, ram..etc) is capable to deal with more than the very basic brushwork that was created way back. Everything thats been done lately had far more detail to it ...without significant performance brakedowns.
@Crazy- You are right about the polygon counts on the old stuff, but you missed something on the new models, like the box you used in your screenshots.
When Evo 2.1 came out, they replace some of the models with new models. When you look close up at a model, you see a nice detailed model like in your screenshot. Looking at one side of the box there is about 18 polygons.
Now look at that box at 45 degree's and walk backwards away from it. You should notice the box suddenly going a bit flat, as the game engine thinks you are too far away to really spot the detail, so it changes down to a lower polygon model. One side of a box drops down from 18 polygons to 2 polygons. If you walk towards the box again, it will look like it's popping in.
This sort of trick has been used in games for years, but this trick was only used at the start of NC2.1. (Not sure about the player models mind)
The problem with NC2 not being very efficient with polygons is due to the old models and maps. To get the FPS up, KK will have to re-render every single object and zone to have bigger polygons from a distance, and smaller polygons for closer up.
Now look at that box at 45 degree's and walk backwards away from it. You should notice the box suddenly going a bit flat, as the game engine thinks you are too far away to really spot the detail, so it changes down to a lower polygon model. One side of a box drops down from 18 polygons to 2 polygons. If you walk towards the box again, it will look like it's popping in.
In the dome you couldnt walk away from boxes etc far enough too even see Virtual Modelling RealityLanguage LOD, but I do get what you mean.
This thread is just more of a question, granted they made nicer looking boxes, but why use these newer boxes, which have unnoticable detail, and use these apparent Neocron 1 cables which hang infront of your face when you run through the dome and look crap.
It isnt a big deal whatsoever, its just when you get bored in the game and tend to start looking for stuff to do you become more aware of the games enviroment, and become overly picky. Its like KK have spent detail on certain things and the less important parts of the game they have kept too a minimum workload on. Its just a shame when theres places like the Tiki club which must not get more then a couple of visitors a week :/
This thread is just more of a question, granted they made nicer looking boxes, but why use these newer boxes, which have unnoticable detail, and use these apparent Neocron 1 cables which hang infront of your face when you run through the dome and look crap.
I think its mainly down to lack of time, when they did the 2.1 tree and beg models they chucked in the new barrels, bad, boxes and mutant bedding, these are items which appear all over the entire game world en masse and seem to be the most popular items for maps and other areas. Granted more of these little details need tobe done and more stuff needs updating but i like they've done the most seen stuff first.
They could turn them down to the Industrial Area barrels if you want? :p theres some there which are 6 sided with no curves what so ever :D
how about they just get rid of all the rubble in the dome.. how long has it been since it got hit (nc time) surely us people living in the dome must have cleared up alot of it by now.. made new things etc etc...maybe only the abandoned sectors should still look like crap as no one gives a crap about those.. but the surly the zones run by factions with their HQ'a in em would have been sorted out by that faction?
Agreed. DoY is ugly as hell, esp. the appartments. Thats probably why noone stays there... its crap.
Oh, and since the appartments are falling to pieces and have crap and fallen over furniture, and NC ones are all clean and crisp, can we please not have to pay as much? lol It makes sense.
you know your wrong crazy well certainly about a few things
where you've highlighted them as complex 3d models ie: frame around the box and the apparent cut out of the door
theyre actually just texturing that because they such crappy res you cant focus on the actual items are just rectangles with textures not complex so you'r looking at only 2 polys per face not all the other bumf
Agreed. DoY is ugly as hell, esp. the appartments. Thats probably why noone stays there... its crap.
Oh, and since the appartments are falling to pieces and have crap and fallen over furniture, and NC ones are all clean and crisp, can we please not have to pay as much? lol It makes sense.
I dont even see the point of doy, I mean i thought it was a whole new area not a few faction hqs (other than crahn hq the others are not that impressive)
where you've highlighted them as complex 3d models ie: frame around the box [...] theyre actually just texturing that because they such crappy res you cant focus on the actual items are just rectangles with textures not complex so you'r looking at only 2 polys per face not all the other bumf
you should spend less time fucking arround with nc1 hinch ... you might notice that the current nc2 crates are in fact a lil more detailed MODELS ..not only textures. Tekktonic doesnt feature bumpmapping (yet), eh? :)
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