View Full Version : First Love - again
I know there's been a thread about the first love recently .. but since we're not supposed to bump old threads, I'll make a new one.
I recently talked to a fellow tank about the first love and cursed soul. up to that point I thought both are almost equal, with the cs doing a little more damage (about 5% or something, not much).
well, I guess I was wrong. I don't cap my first love, but from what I know capped range is 535m. tell me if I'm wrong, didnt find a player to confirm that. CS range on the other hand is about 750 m if its true what the tank told me. 50% more range means alot when you talk about aim speed and accuracy.
second point where I was wrong is recoil. I got about 17 with my uncapped FL, I guess capped its about 15. please correct me if its not true.
CS recoil seems to be around 9, capped. again, this is a huge advantage when you talk about accuracy, and, equally important, stamina drain. when fighting with the First Love I got the rifle in one hand, and a bunch of stam boosters in the other.
I like this weapon so much .. but every day when I use it I know that basically its not worth using, and that I'd be alot better off with a healing light, or a slasher for that matter.
I know nothing will change, since the balancing seems to be something thats planned in a long term view judging from the balance forums. just wanted to express my feelings for this lovely weapon :(
Apocalypsox
11-04-06, 02:09
they are balancing weapons tbh, but i agree. how it currently is the FL "couldnt hit a rhino when your sitting inside it"
"couldnt hit a rhino when your sitting inside it"
I only ever found that funny when I imagined that statement being used with a real rhinoceros animal.
I don't cap my first love,
i just won a 5 slot fl (4 slot free) on that event today, maybe you cap that :>
they are balancing weapons tbh, but i agree. how it currently is the FL "couldnt hit a rhino when your sitting inside it"
Yes. Well statements like these only prove you dont know what you people are talking about. Whem my spy could use it he could hit easily targets at distances.
It's not a sniping rifle because of the recoil and because you lose your target in distances, but if you know how to shoot you hit fine with it.
John, yes its true recoil settles at 15, but I bet there's no difference in 17.
You will still have recoil no matter what. It's how the rifle is designed.
When I used to test them, I tested a fully arti FL against a fully capped TPC on my then h-c pe. No matter what the numbers are telling you, I have found the spy FL easier to use in pvp. It's very good in close combat situations, provided you getting a good lock on the subject.
About stamina consumption, its a lot better than HL.
Furthermore its very difficult to tell which one is more powerfull because they are both burst type guns with random accuracy.
i just won a 5 slot fl (4 slot free) on that event today, maybe you cap that :>
you know where to find me, donations are always appreciated :P
edit: jini, I'm not comparing the FL with a TPC. I'm comparing it with a CS. and a recoil of 15 compared to 9 _is_ quite a difference, as is a range of 750 m compared to 500m.
sure, you can hit stuff with it, and sure, you can kill people with it. but you can also kill people with a spoon ...
If you forget damage diferences TPC=CS, I was a h-c PE anyway.
Recoil of 15 over 9 is a difference of 6. What does this tell me? nothing how the gun "feels" in real battle conditions. It's just another number. I have never looked in numbers, I was allways interested in the end result, and I think I cleared out that FL was handling better on my spy...
Another example: 750 meters over 500 is a difference of 250m, but as Kurai (a master of sniping) will tell you, clipping stops at 500, so there's NO actual difference.
What I can asure you of though is, that 1) FL is certainly NOT a spoon.
2) Smurf says the HL is teh best of all, but I cant handle the rifle allthough I admit I havent insisted however, since I'm stick playing my crossbow PE as you all know...
3) No matter how good you are with rifles or cannons, you just can't beat pistols. Which leads me believing that they must equalize speed bonus for all, because I do believe that this is the real problem
Recoil of 15 over 9 is a difference of 6. What does this tell me? nothing how the gun "feels" in real battle conditions. It's just another number.
its a difference of 6, or 66%. maybe it doesnt tell you anything, but I know that
- in "real battle conditions", I will run out of stamina quite fast with this much recoil
- in "real battle conditions", I will miss more shots of each bursts due to this much recoil
Another example: 750 meters over 500 is a difference of 250m, but as Kurai (a master of sniping) will tell you, clipping stops at 500, so there's NO actual difference.
yes there is. 250 m is 50% more. since range is related to aiming speed and reticle closure, this tells me
- with 50% more range, the reticle closes much faster at all ranges, thus making it easier to aim and hit your target
- with 50% more range, the reticle closes more at any distance when you're moving, making it easier to hit your target/miss less shots per burst
What I can asure you of though is, that 1) FL is certainly NOT a spoon.
that was just an exaggerated example to state that the fact that you come along well with this weapon does not mean its not worse than others.
maybe numbers dont tell you anything, but everything in this game is based on numbers. if you can read them, they tell alot.
Numbers mean shit. You not only need to know how to read them but also to understand them as well.
In the mean time since you are such a number crunchy and "vet" please do explain to me why a HL with 0 in recoil produces SO huge stamina loss even greater than FL ??? :confused: :confused: :confused:
In any case if you "feel" like this for numbers go with a dissruptor.
Numbers mean shit. You not only need to know how to read them but also to understand them as well.
thats what I meant with 'know how to read them'.
since laser weapons are f'ugly in this game I havent had one in my hands since a long time. will borrow one this evening and tell you me experiences.
about your "vet" comment .. lets try not to take this personal, ok?
and its no "feeling" I got about numbers. do you know why a wyatt earp back in the days was so hard to aim? because it only got about 30 m max range.
everything I wrote is based on my experiences with this game, I'm not just looking at numbers, I'm taking the numbers and see how they work in the game.
I'm sure if Dirus would take the time he could confirm most if not all points I made.
I cap my 2slot FL. But yeah, it can't hit a house from the inside.
Ok let me rephrase it then, while at the same time try not to make it "personal" which was a reply to your comment about "know how to read a number".
We are players and our only concern should be the end result, meaning how the game plays. If you really feel you can understand and find the real formulas hidden behind such a system with so many "Band-Aids" then be my guest and try to find them, but as I clearly showed to you you already failed with your assumption about recoil.
The WE example about range is a bad example because 30m is not 500 nor 750m. Try a test: get a CS and try shooting ranged targets while running at the same time, and then do the same with a FL, then talk to me about ranges.
Ask Kazuya how he feels with both because he has used them both a FL and a CS and he liked them both. I will never rely in numbers in this game, only in general "feeling" after playing all this time. I just cba, it's a game after all and I do prefer spamming ooc :cool: than "playing" the scientist
Ok let me rephrase it then, while at the same time try not to make it "personal" which was a reply to your comment about "know how to read a number".
We are players and our only concern should be the end result, meaning how the game plays. If you really feel you can understand and find the real formulas hidden behind such a system with so many "Band-Aids" then be my guest and try to find them, but as I clearly showed to you you already failed with your assumption about recoil.
The WE example about range is a bad example because 30m is not 500 nor 750m. Try a test: get a CS and try shooting ranged targets while running at the same time, and then do the same with a FL, then talk to me about ranges.
Ask Kazuya how he feels with both because he has used them both a FL and a CS and he liked them both. I will never rely in numbers in this game, only in general "feeling" after playing all this time. I just cba, it's a game after all and I do prefer spamming ooc :cool: than "playing" the scientist
sigh, jini just let it go.
As for your 1 point about handeling, perhaps thats because the TPC IS A CANNON hence it slows you down when you pull it out. Making it feel more cumbersome in combat. And if you don't care about numbers you are going to have a hard time ajusting once 2.2 comes out since thats what dirus is using to rebalance the game. Numbers dirrectly translate to ingame.....funny since those same numbers wree used in the programing.
[...] but as I clearly showed to you you already failed with your assumption about recoil.
we'll see tonight. I'm still quite confident that I am right about this point.
Dirus, if you wanna clarify, you're welcome.
The WE example about range is a bad example because 30m is not 500 nor 750m. Try a test: get a CS and try shooting ranged targets while running at the same time, and then do the same with a FL, then talk to me about ranges.
its a great example, because it shows the relation of range to aiming.
why do you think pistol ranges got increased? because of better aiming.
why do you think SH has a range more than 5 times as high as the drawing distance? because of better aim.
I will never rely in numbers in this game, only in general "feeling" after playing all this time. I just cba, it's a game after all and I do prefer spamming ooc :cool: than "playing" the scientist
I dont rely on numbers. I rely on my experiences coupled with the informations the game gives me. its not rocket science.
its a great example, because it shows the relation of range to aiming.
why do you think pistol ranges got increased? because of better aiming.
why do you think SH has a range more than 5 times as high as the drawing distance? because of better aim.
1, no it isn't. Differing TLs, differing skill reqs, different weapon. the issue with trying to compare things like these is a nonpoint. Each weapon is, very much so, an Island.
The SH has a range of 5x the drawing distance, A) because KK broke the draw distance, and B it's a friggin sniper rifle.
Quit it. We know the First love is not to everyones taste, we also know the margins between most of the rare spy weapons are minimal, they all kill you just as good.
CS aims godlike compared to a FL. Same with recoil, it's less with a CS. About the damage i'm unsure, the FL should do more when it's capped. And don't get me started on the stamina drain of the FL. :rolleyes:
It's not viable. At least not compared to other guns. I really hope they don't just bring it in line with the balance changes but also fix it's aiming/recoil/stamina drain wise. :)
1, no it isn't. Differing TLs, differing skill reqs, different weapon. the issue with trying to compare things like these is a nonpoint. Each weapon is, very much so, an Island.
I disagree. basically all weapons are the same, just with different models and values for range, recoil, etc. the underlying mechanics are identical.
@SorkZmok: thanks, at least someone agrees ...
FL is perfect as it is. Hard to aim, hard to control. But if you hit, it hurts good.
A weapon that requires skill to be viable.
If you can control it, it's teh sex.
If you can't, you won't win a fight with it.
It's good that way.
I disagree. basically all weapons are the same, just with different models and values for range, recoil, etc. the underlying mechanics are identical.Underlying mechanic - they all do damage?
We have projectiles (plasma, fusion, sniper, some spells, AoE), beams (assaultrifle ;) laser, raygun) and instanthits (some spells, flamer[the poisonstack always hits]).
no - underlying mechanics as in a CS is just a FL with a different model and different stats (range, recoil, damage, weapon slowdown).
thats the reason why balancing in some cases is hard to do. for example pistols: people complain about their huge range, but if you change it to reasonable amounts they will be really hard to aim even at close distance, which is not favourable for short range weapons.
edit: btw, do you know what happens when you got a weapon that is hard to aim, hard to control and has alot of negative aspects to it, while there are weapons that are easy to aim, easy to control with alot of positive aspects? noone will use the first weapon. and we've got alot of those weapons ingame that noone uses. doesnt make much sense, does it.
I disagree. basically all weapons are the same, just with different models and values for range, recoil, etc. the underlying mechanics are identical.
@SorkZmok: thanks, at least someone agrees ...
Values play a part in said mechanics and balance considerations. As does clip size. As does runspeed malus.
Eaxh one of these is a deciding factor in weapon effectiveness and balance. On your line of thinking, I could compare a beggar nailgun to a spoon and make it sound like a tl 128 weapon.
ok.. from this PM
Good Day Dirus,
if you got a spare second I'd very much appreciate if you have a look at this thread:
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=133468
basically the point of argument is whether recoil influences stamina drain or not and whether the maximum range of a weapon influences the 'aim speed'/reticle closure.
I'm quite confident that the answer to both is yes, but since several people seem to disagree I'd very much appreciate if you could clarify.
Thanks in advance and best regards,
John
Recoil does not influence Stamina drain, those are two seperately set factors in the weapons.
Range does effect the Aim Speed of a weapon, longer range = faster aiming, hence why the current clip range is as much of an issue as it is, and why Rifles don't have much advantage over other weapons.
thanks alot for clarifying. I still have the feeling that the weapons with high recoil also have a high stamina drain value, even if those are two seperate ones. but of course I may be wrong.
edit: @spermy: I was just referring to the statement that "each weapon is an island on its own", thus making any comparisons invalid. which is wrong.
Dirus already said. You are.
Recoil does not influence Stamina drain, those are two seperately set factors in the weapons.
Range does effect the Aim Speed of a weapon, longer range = faster aiming, hence why the current clip range is as much of an issue as it is, and why Rifles don't have much advantage over other weapons.
So, By Dirus's answer and after ALL your scientific experiments, you weren't able to tell the simple fact that recoil DOESN't play a role in stamina drain. This is exactly how most of us (including me) think we know this game better than KK, even though I have never claimed such a false argument. Instead of trying to reveal the functions inside, go play the game, it's a lot easier to get results on yourself this way.
And remember: Sorkzmok is just another opinion, such as Sliths or mine. If you really want to believe him or not is always your choice, but at least try the rifle yourself first
in my post after Dirus comment I did not say that recoil plays a role/influences stamina drain. I just said that i have the feeling that weapons with high recoil values also in most cases have high stamina drain values. which would make sense.
Jini, you seem so eager to prove me wrong that you obviously overlooked that my other assumption, which you said is wrong too, was right.
And you seem so eager to cling onto one correct statement. :confused:
basically the point of argument is whether recoil influences stamina drain
You were wrong. 'Feelings' didn't come into it.
- in "real battle conditions", I will run out of stamina quite fast with this much recoil
There too.
its a difference of 6, or 66%. maybe it doesnt tell you anything, but I know that
- in "real battle conditions", I will run out of stamina quite fast with this much recoil
- in "real battle conditions", I will miss more shots of each bursts due to this much recoil
well this is what you said, which is clearly in the wrong way, after all this "heavy" testing.
On the other hand I NEVER said or claimed range does not influence reticule closure, but I can say right now that 500 m or 750 does NO difference at all in same type guns, as far as i can tell ofcourse... its not easy to check this
Edit: I am also NOT eager to prove you wrong at all, all I was saying from the begining is to just go and try the thing
omg .. I know I was wrong with that statement, but nonetheless do weapons with high recoil in most cases have a higher stamina drain than weapons with a low recoil, _even if those are two seperate values set by KK_. that hard to understand?
I'm trying to argue with reason here, and all I get is "your scientific experiments bla" "go play the game, forget numbers" .. what the hell is your problem?
fact is: the first love has a fucking high stamina drain. no matter where that value is stored
another fact is: aiming on first love is harder than on CS due to the lower range, _which jini denied_.
I get the feeling this is a "my dog is better than yours" type of thing .. not my cup of tea.
Test.
Go to a OP zone, select GR in the navray (*assuming the games crazy way of calculating a distance is the same for navray as it is weapons) and have someone stand at the GR.
Make the player with the gun in testing run until the arrow says 500 or what ever meters, fraps the reticle closing. Fire a few times or test what ever you're going to test then move back a bit. Then do the same with the other gun. With a bit of video editing, make them both play at the same time and compare the recoil/hits/time taken the reticule to close etc and see if theres any difference compared to what the numbers written on the gun say.. I think there'll be no difference, since those numbers don't mean anything when you compare it to how it actually plays.
Although the length of the zone will be a problem compared to the range needed to simulate the weapon distance. Perhaps just go as far as possible but within aiming distance, since that's all that can be used anyway - regardless of any numbers that go with any gun.
Navray meters are not normal meters when you look at it. Stand in MB centre facing the GR in the middle of the room, select GR from the navray list and look at howfar away it says it is :p
omg .. I know I was wrong with that statement, but nonetheless do weapons with high recoil in most cases have a higher stamina drain than weapons with a low recoil, _even if those are two seperate values set by KK_. that hard to understand?
for Christ's sake NO you are wrong No no... WE has recoil of something like 5 i forget and produces no stam drain. Stam drain drains faster when you run than when you standing still... you cant just measure it Jesus what is this????
fact is: the first love has a fucking high stamina drain. no matter where that value is stored
No the FL DOESN'T have a f*** high stamina drain. On the contrary its got less stam drain then a HL with 0 recoil :rolleyes:
another fact is: aiming on first love is harder than on CS due to the lower range, _which jini denied_.
NO again NO. Depends where you aim and how. To my understanding (how I feel) CS is harder. CS snipes stationary targets easier, but if you have to move to pursue the target it doesn't. All in all this is very difficult to answer
which is why I told you to ask Kazuya, or Terayon. But I dunno if Terayon has tested CS and since when.
I get the feeling this is a "my dog is better than yours" type of thing .. not my cup of tea.
no it's not. I'm trying to help you the best way I can, with the experience I got from using the FL. Stop being stubborn
for Christ's sake NO you are wrong No no... WE has recoil of something like 5 i forget and produces no stam drain. Stam drain drains faster when you run than when you standing still... you cant just measure it
yes you can, as Dirus said there is one value which determines the stamina drain of a weapon. of course stamina drains faster when you run - because running itself drains stamina as well.
No the FL DOESN'T have a f*** high stamina drain.
yes it does - of course it depends on with which weapon you compare it.
NO again NO. Depends where you aim and how. To my understanding (how I feel) CS is harder. CS snipes stationary targets easier, but if you have to move to pursue the target it doesn't. All in all this is very difficult to answer
which is why I told you to ask Kazuya, or Terayon. But I dunno if Terayon has tested CS and since when.
thanks, but I dont have to ask any player when Dirus, who should have a clue about this stuff since its his job, already said that my assumption in this case is right.
and if you really wanna 'help' or discuss in a civilized manner spare me the polemic comments about my "heavy" "scientific" tests.
thanks, but I dont have to ask any player when Dirus, who should have a clue about this stuff since its his job, already said that my assumption in this case is right.
All that Dirus said here is that he told you that range affects aiming. He never specified how or in what way. In fact he never told anything more than what we knew already and this the right thing to do.
The little details need to be found by players in real testing conditions.
What Dirus told you here is no more than a general statement that R-C affects damage in a rifle. If you really feel confident with that then ok dont use the FL, its very short range, use a SH instead in pvp :D
i seen kaz use a fl very well on a spy as well as a cs :P
All that Dirus said here is that he told you that range affects aiming. He never specified how or in what way.
Range does effect the Aim Speed of a weapon, longer range = faster aiming
how more specific can you be ? :rolleyes:
well a lot more, but its up to us to find out
John, you're picking out any info which corresponds and throwing the rest away. You're still trying to draw comparisons to weapons of different stats, and different classes, also differing TLs.
For the last time, each weapon is an island, regardless. It's not wrong to draw such conclusions, but you must be at least semi aware that they'll all be flawed. Your looking at a problem with teh First Love. All you had to say was that you have an issue with it.
You don't need to drag numbers and stats into it, you don't need to blow it all out of proportion.
Okay - conclusion?
Yes, a lot of people thing the FL is flawed. Some very much so. Some would say rifles as a whole are flawed. Refution of this is evident in the fact that it is still possible to be a damn good opponent with it.
Alternatives to the issue would be the fact that there are several other weapons within a few techlevels that do the job just as well.
Close the thread for the love of god.
(1) - in "real battle conditions", I will run out of stamina quite fast with this much recoil
(2) - in "real battle conditions", I will miss more shots of each bursts due to this much recoil
(3) - with 50% more range, the reticle closes much faster at all ranges, thus making it easier to aim and hit your target
(4) - with 50% more range, the reticle closes more at any distance when you're moving, making it easier to hit your target/miss less shots per burst
1: wrong, according to Dirus information
2: correct - I think we all can agree that a weapon with high recoil tends to miss more than a weapon with low recoil
3: correct, according to Dirus information
4: correct - if you dont believe me do some of your praised ingame testing, take a SH and a FL and look at the reticle closure at 500 m
so out of 4 statements I made, one was wrong - though you make it seem like everything I wrote was incorrect.
further I have to deal with comments like '"All that Dirus said here is that he told you that range affects aiming. He never specified how or in what way.", and when I prove it wrong (what everyone could do who's able to read), the only answer is "well, he could have been way more specific". sorry, this is just stupid.
no need to drag numbers and stats into balancing? how else do you balance a computer game, which does anything and everything with _numbers_, formulas, mathematics?
1: wrong, according to Dirus information
2: correct - I think we all can agree that a weapon with high recoil tends to miss more than a weapon with low recoil
3: correct, according to Dirus information
4: correct - if you dont believe me do some of your praised ingame testing, take a SH and a FL and look at the reticle closure at 500 m
so out of 4 statements I made, one was wrong - though you make it seem like everything I wrote was incorrect.
further I have to deal with comments like '"All that Dirus said here is that he told you that range affects aiming. He never specified how or in what way.", and when I prove it wrong (what everyone could do who's able to read), the only answer is "well, he could have been way more specific". sorry, this is just stupid.
no need to drag numbers and stats into balancing? how else do you balance a computer game, which does anything and everything with _numbers_, formulas, mathematics?
2) is wrong because its not the recoil that does the missing, but i "guess" its the accuracy factor built in each gun. Recoil is not an issue here
3) yes this is partly correct but i doubt you duel in ranges like 500 meters do you? PVP is happening in 10-30 meters, so this is also an irrelevant factor, for pure theoretic. As I said FL and CS are duelling guns.
4) yes this is correct. like i said already if you take a FL and a CS at these distances you will notice that FL has an advantage in aiming over CS and this is normal because its a rifle. Even though the CS can still close at a distant target, it doesn't mean you can use it to chase the target too
2) is wrong because its not the recoil that does the missing, but i "guess" its the accuracy factor built in each gun. Recoil is not an issue here
you may be right .. but you may be wrong too. what would recoil be for then?
maybe Dirus can shed some light on this, but I dont wanna bother him again..
3) yes this is partly correct but i doubt you duel in ranges like 500 meters do you? PVP is happening in 10-30 meters, so this is also an irrelevant factor, for pure theoretic. As I said FL and CS are duelling guns.
its is relevant, because that effect also takes place at close range - being the reason why the wyatt earp with 33m range was such a bad weapon. you dont have to be at the end of the range scale to notice this effect.
4) yes this is correct. like i said already if you take a FL and a CS at these distances you will notice that FL has an advantage in aiming over CS and this is normal because its a rifle. Even though the CS can still close at a distant target, it doesn't mean you can use it to chase the target too
you got me wrong, I'm saying its the other way round - CS got an advantage over FL.
edit: you are right about the stamina drain of FL though - its not that high, I just tested it ingame.
edit2: I am just surprised that the CS has a that much higher range and lower recoil, since range are the domain of rifles, and recoil should be higher for a CS if you follow logic. thats all.
John, you're picking out any info which corresponds and throwing the rest away. You're still trying to draw comparisons to weapons of different stats, and different classes, also differing TLs.
For the last time, each weapon is an island, regardless. It's not wrong to draw such conclusions, but you must be at least semi aware that they'll all be flawed. Your looking at a problem with teh First Love. All you had to say was that you have an issue with it.
You don't need to drag numbers and stats into it, you don't need to blow it all out of proportion.
Okay - conclusion?
Yes, a lot of people thing the FL is flawed. Some very much so. Some would say rifles as a whole are flawed. Refution of this is evident in the fact that it is still possible to be a damn good opponent with it.
Alternatives to the issue would be the fact that there are several other weapons within a few techlevels that do the job just as well.
Close the thread for the love of god.I pretty much agree with the island thing there. :lol:
Also that this is about the FL. No need to drag in other weapons. It just makes some sense comparing it to the CS, as thats a cannon with the same rof/burst size.
I've been playing a rifle spy for ages, i've recently been playing a FL PE. After i somewhat got used to the FL, i made a tank and started using a CS. And the CS is so much better in everything apart from the damage. And damage doesn't help much if the gun won't hit.
About the recoil thing, i really don't care. I play 3rd person, never had any problems with that.
About the stamina drain, think about the fact that spy pa pretty much negates every stamina you got. So a high stamina use on the FL is a great issue for a spy. Hell, even on my PE using BQ chest i'm finding the stamina drain way too high, one clip fired while i'm strafing around and i gotta pop a stamina booster to keep going.
Someone here said the HL eats up even more stamina, i didn't know that, i never really used it.
Another thing to take into acount:
I'd say i'm actually a pretty good pvper. Thing is, i can definately use the FL. Yet i'm better with any other gun. Why? Because no other gun is fucked up so much. A gun isn't balanced because one guy can use it fine. :rolleyes:
, do you know what happens when you got a weapon that is hard to aim, hard to control and has alot of negative aspects to it, while there are weapons that are easy to aim, easy to control with alot of positive aspects? noone will use the first weapon. and we've got alot of those weapons ingame that noone uses. doesnt make much sense, does it.
Thats why so many players chose monks ;)
Thats the good thing with the First Love, tbh.
It has style. And it's certainly powerful, if you can handle it. Keep it a rare sight.
And btw, it's not as bad as you're saying. Just make your shots count. The only problem most people have with the FL is that they fire too fast. Use it like you would use a Silent Hunter in a dogfight.
If you really need it boosted (you're a FL-PE right?), make its clip bigger. 2 Shots more is enough. Everything else will make it imbalanced.
Recoil means nothing to me, as I guess it means nothing to a tank using CS.
To me, the only problem FL had was just a speed reduction problem, thats related to rifles in general. Terayon thinks the gun needs a larger magazine and I can partly agree with him. thats all
Jini and I have had this argument before :lol:
It boiled down to personal preference and usage pattern in the end.
I dragged my old First Loves out of storage after our conversation and decided to give them a chance again.
They went back into the cabs a week or two later.
Jini uses his First Love as a big-ass point-blank range pistol. Inside 10 to 15m it's the best rifler gun. Outside of that, and for any other use forget it.
The rest of the population agrees - the negatives of attempting to use it outside of that very specific circumstance mean that almost any other high end rifle rare is a better all-round choice. There's a *reason* you just don't ever see them being used.
As far as the stamina drain ... Jini always insisted that the Healing Light used more than the First Love - I could never reproduce that. No matter how I tested them I always found they were both almost exactly the same stam drain.
(One new bit of information - since we had that original conversation I got around to borrowing someones HC Tank with a CS. I was surprised at just how superior the CS was.)
As far as the stamina drain ... Jini always insisted that the Healing Light used more than the First Love - I could never reproduce that. No matter how I tested them I always found they were both almost exactly the same stam drain.
The HL does have a higher stamina drain set then the FL does.
The FL does have a higher freq... so if you where going by a few seconds not per burst, that might have messed you up.
The Fl will never be as good as a HL is when you snipe an enemy from long range for example. Or, it can't beat the combo and accuracy of Sh -> HL. On the other hand, I was doing better for my style using the FL over HL for duels. I don't know there is something wrong with the HL which I cant understand. The thing is, that I'm not playing my spy anymore to get into the details of things. However I have met yet a good spy from ff and we fought. He was very good and he was using a HL. He was assisted by an apu. I started with the apu first of all and made him to GR in the UG, then less than half healthed, I attacked the spy and he went in the UG as well. The spy was very good, but there is something wrong with the HL I cannot understand. In my opinion it has to be something with fast speed runners. I have noticed that when I was fighting smurf... the same thing. I have never had that when I was sing the FL, or the Dissie... I dunno
Well - yes. Of course the FL frequency factors in to this.
The similar end result I was referring to was the time taken to drain stamina to zero while moving and firing.
It's really the only metric you can talk about usefully.
The drain per shot may be higher for the HL, but it's not a terribly useful data point in isolation.
The first love is good when :
1- you can aim it.
2-you use it as the 1st of 2 weapons, in close range pvp.You empty out ur clip then switch and use alternate weapon that is non locational, like HL.
Ive had FL spy, HC tank, HC PE, and FL PE. Right now i still have the FL PE and the HC tank, and i hardly ever play my HC tank.
This guy(tank) is slow as hell and in no PPU situation i found out the PE is as tough as the tank, mainly because of the heal and SD.
The PE is also faster, can stealth, DB and can use SH for sniping of for OP wars.
The RC defenitly has more advantages over the HC, and id also prefer a FL spy over a HC tank.
Ive even been PPUd on spy in OP and found out it was as good as a HC tank if not better.
In the end its all about personnal preferences, but id say the FL defenetly is balanced and viable.
It also used to and still looks better then all guns.
Stamina drain per shot on a HL is terrible, maybe its only meant to be as a sniper rifle I don't know. Terrible for spy terms, because of the penalties they get in stamina from PAs. Speed penalties in both rifles and Canons must be nullified and then balance weapons. If ths ever happen, then we might see heavy combat tanks returning.
Edit: yes, I forgot Kame, he is also a FL user. It's so fun when I see so many controversial views about a rifle that makes me wonder how is it possible that there still are people that cant aim with a FL. Kame, do you have trouble aiming distant objects using your FL?
Why would i even bother using the FL for distant targets ??? I use SH or HL.
Lol as stated before in this thread its got worst range then the CS. Also, it doesnt make sense using it when i have either a HL or a SH in my PE belt.
Also doesnt make sense using DB when i can use and cap highest DEX rifles.I can kill ppl with a FL/HL spy fine and the spy is weaker then the PE.
The stamina on spys is another story, and its rather easy to counter given you want to use drugs, wich i do.
The only thing i regret the gunb doesnt have is the silencer thing.
I so wish we could silence that gun.
Why use a FL over large distances??? you kidding me? You do this for:
a. because it's spectacular when you see 4 blobs of green plasma travelling in straight line, particularly in the night (Edit: this effect not always happens, but when it does, its spectacular ;))
b. all those around you wonder how you can do it and envy you :p
but yes HL/SH are a lot better snipers
Well - yes. Of course the FL frequency factors in to this. [stamina drain]
the frequency of all rifles is the same (maybe there's an exception, I recall something about the disruptor, but not sure, and the SH for sure is different), if you divide it by the number of shots/burst.
for example pistol frequency is 92 .. wyatt earp is singleshot, so its 92/min. liberator has a 4 shot burst, so the 370/min relate to 92/min if you divide it by 4 (more or less, 4x92=368). so if you take the stamina drain per burst you should be able to compare it to any other weapon of that class without problems.
Joooohnnnn I see nuuuumberssss there.... ;)
:lol:
numbers are your friend, even if they may mislead you when put in the wrong context. in this case its quite logical .. you take stamina drain per burst and not per bullet, right? most rifles have got the same number of bursts/min they can fire, so you can easily compare those.
we live in a world of 1's and O's in necron, if you like it or not :p
The first love is good when :
1- you can aim it.
Any gun is good if you can aim it. Consider somoene has perfect aim with a FL and a dissy. A dissy will be better.
Though i do agree the fl is a good weapon to use with somthing else but thats only good in duels.
Why use a FL over large distances??? you kidding me? You do this for:
a. because it's spectacular when you see 4 blobs of green plasma travelling in straight line, particularly in the night (Edit: this effect not always happens, but when it does, its spectacular ;))
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
ok, sorry.
no, wait, I'm not done.
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
*deep breath*
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"not always happens" has to be the biggest understatement in the history of mankind. If the quote wasn't so long I'd stick it in my sig!
Apocalypsox
13-04-06, 07:17
Stamina drain per shot on a HL is terrible, maybe its only meant to be as a sniper rifle I don't know. Terrible for spy terms, because of the penalties they get in stamina from PAs. Speed penalties in both rifles and Canons must be nullified and then balance weapons. If ths ever happen, then we might see heavy combat tanks returning.
Edit: yes, I forgot Kame, he is also a FL user. It's so fun when I see so many controversial views about a rifle that makes me wonder how is it possible that there still are people that cant aim with a FL. Kame, do you have trouble aiming distant objects using your FL?
my setup has never had a stamina issue...with any rifle he has used...ever O_o oh and aiming a FL is like aimin a advanced glider >=D
Konshinn, it's not my problem you can't use the rifle. Instead of wasting your time in the forums, you could have just do a lot of practice trying to find out how it works. Then -maybe- you needn't had to quote other people's sayings, but your own, or avoid certain mistakes of the past :p
In the mean time, I can offer you the following uber service: I will go buy a store bought liquid fire plasma and show you the effect :cool: In fact I will shoot the mob you will ask me from distances of 200-300 m, how about that?
Konshinn, it's not my problem you can't use the rifle. Instead of wasting your time in the forums, you could have just do a lot of practice trying to find out how it works. Then -maybe- you needn't had to quote other people's sayings, but your own, or avoid certain mistakes of the past :p
In the mean time, I can offer you the following uber service: I will go buy a store bought liquid fire plasma and show you the effect :cool: In fact I will shoot the mob you will ask me from distances of 200-300 m, how about that?
skill has nothing to do with it, lol. It has to do with the inaccuracy of the rifle. Try snipe an immobile object. It doesn't matter if you have teh most 1337 ub3r skillz0r, or you're a total noob, you'll still get the same aiming on an immobile object. And I guarantee you'll rarely, if ever get 4 blobs to hit.
I'm not saying it's not possible and I'm not saying you're wrong, it is cool. Please read post more carefully, kthxbai. :cool:
I don't get what your problem is, it's like you take everything so personally. :confused: Chill out dude, calm down, living for 40+ years should give you maturity. :D
It does matter how you fire it, it does need some getting used to it, this is the reason why I think some say you cant aim with it, and this is why i said to show it to you.
I don't have anything personal with you, but ask yourself what you have against me, quoting the way you do.
It does matter how you fire it, it does need some getting used to it, this is the reason why I think some say you cant aim with it, and this is why i said to show it to you.
I don't have anything personal with you, but ask yourself what you have against me, quoting the way you do.
If a target is immobile, all guns aim exactly the same except for missile launchers, fusion cannons and ray gun cannons. You put your mouse over it, wait until your reticle stops moving, then fire.
I have nothing personal against you, but the stuff you say is sometimes funny and sometimes I disagree with it. Actually, many times I disagree with what you say, but it's not because you say it, it's what you're saying.
If a target is immobile, all guns aim exactly the same except for missile launchers, fusion cannons and ray gun cannons. You put your mouse over it, wait until your reticle stops moving, then fire.
I have nothing personal against you, but the stuff you say is sometimes funny and sometimes I disagree with it. Actually, many times I disagree with what you say, but it's not because you say it, it's what you're saying.
Listen to what you are saying.
"all guns aim exactly the same.... except" well add another gun in that except, because you cant aim it the way you describe. If you do you get the results you claim you getting. Like i said, a simple demo is sufficient.
Stop being stubborn, I don't have anything personal against you or anybody else, and nor do I care to have to be honest.
Every one disagrees with what others say, not because they say it that is obvious. On the other hand you may disagree, but you don't build your arguments, except on very fragile foundations. You try, but not to hard, and sometimes you just have to backtrack.
Listen to what you are saying.
"all guns aim exactly the same.... except" well add another gun in that except, because you cant aim it the way you describe. If you do you get the results you claim you getting. Like i said, a simple demo is sufficient.
Stop being stubborn, I don't have anything personal against you or anybody else, and nor do I care to have to be honest.
Every one disagrees with what others say, not because they say it that is obvious. On the other hand you may disagree, but you don't build your arguments, except on very fragile foundations. You try, but not to hard, and sometimes you just have to backtrack.
You're taking my quote out of context, jini. Stop with the personal attacks please! :(
If a target is immobile, all guns aim exactly the same except for ...
Oh yeah, forgot your first language isn't english. Immobile means not moving, standing still, an easy target to hit that isn't actively dodging you. I'm saying that regardless of your skill with a plasma rifle and regardless of how much you cap it, you'll still miss a large number of shots for no reason because of how the gun is made.
yes you are right for the first it wasn't necessary...
I know very well what immobile means. The more you insist the more it shows you haven't used the gun at all. You miss a lot on how the rifle handles and it's not my problem either. I have used this rifle for more than a year. It handles "differently" than the others. I have never played or even tried more than an hour apus or hybrids because they make me bored, but I can claim that I have tried all guns in this game, except rare cannons and rare melee(melee bore me to hell too, its very easy, no aim, no skill).
Read my words: This is A RIFLE OF SKILL. again: THIS RIFLE NEEDS SKILL. It's not a HL, nor a dissruptor.
Edit: I don't believe we are having this dispute again all over. As if one time was not enough already. This just shows how stubborn you really are. You don't like the rifle, fine, but let others judge on themselves if it's good or bad
Presumably Jini is talking about compensating actively for `recoil creep/drift`
Problem is that it doesn't work.
Want to test it empirically ?
Go stand 5 metres away from someone and aim at their feet with your First Love.
Fire off a few bursts, starting each burst at their feet, so as the recoil drifts your reticle higher it's still on the target hitbox and never loses lock.
Alternatively - start at midsection and slowly move mouse down as you fire so the `return to rest` reticle aim point is as close to middle as possible.
Upwards of 25% of your green blobs will still fuck off into the wild blue yonder to startle passing vultures.
@Jini - it's a matter of degrees ... Yes - it's hard to aim an FL to keep lock all the time, and undoubtedly that's what some people are having a problem with. The same issue crops up with the Assault rifles, although to a lesser extent (lower nominal recoil value, plus smaller number of shots per burst). However - even in `perfect scenarios` the miss rate is still too high to make the gun the `default` PvP choice for most people ( i.e. everyone except you ;)).
Yes Kurai, this is what I was referring (finally someone who knows...)
This is one of the tips, but surprisingly not the greatest factor, but it's why I enjoy "playing" with the rifle sort of. There are 2 more factors that are more important than tis however, but what you are talking made me play a lot with that rifle ;)
You shouldn't have revealed this tbh, I was enjoying it with Konshin, even thought it starts looking like a soap opera ;) Fortunately there are still 2 more factors and more important for him to discover :D
It's not my choice of pvp gun anymore for reasons related to this thread http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?p=1976136#post1976136 and this reason only, but thats another story. I do miss it
Edit: The "compensation" you are talking about works 50/50 but its more a fun feature, undocumented and im sure was not intended by the designer, but it's fun to try and "compensate"
Alternatively - start at midsection and slowly move mouse down as you fire so the `return to rest` reticle aim point is as close to middle as possible.
You have to fully let it get to head and be very light with ur reticule, if you know what i mean.
It seems to shoot better when ur strafing.
Are you gonna "spoil" everything or what now?
It's not my choice of pvp gun anymore for reasons related to this thread http://forum.neocron.com/showthread...136#post1976136 and this reason only, but thats another story. I do miss it
Edit: The "compensation" you are talking about works 50/50 but its more a fun feature, undocumented and im sure was not intended by the designerYeah - that's a fair point.
The FL is hugely affected by lock loss and regain which is a *big* problem when trying to keep a bead on `warping` enemies.
As far as the creep being unintended in the design ... not so sure about that. Handling the compounded recoil is a standard part of the training when using automatic weapons. You get taught to fire in short bursts, and to actively move aim antagonistically to the weapons natural creep direction.
It's the reason some weapons also have a burst selctor switch (between single shot and full auto) that's generally 3 shots. With these guns you are told to make your initial aim point low and slightly to the right of the centre of mass of the target (most `autos pull up and left), so that the burst lays a "stitch" of three hits diagonally across the torso.
Anyway - the point of that blurb is simply that if the designers didn't intend for `real world` recoil to be a factor they wouldn't have included a recoil stat, I'd imagine ;)
Anyway, we have said a lot about the FL already, it's better to let John Wu discover them alone, because he is capable of revealing those hidden "features" as soon as he trusts his experience more than his numbers.
Koshinn will most likely know all these when he reads all those spoilers from Kurai and Kame even if he can't quite document that with what he already told us, but whatever.
Me, I will go back to my latest sport of ooc spamming :angel: and my trusty crossbow which i so much love :)
And to conclude, we want to be able to put silencers on the First Love.
Amen.
Yeah !
Because a silencer will make First Love usage *so* much less conspicuous ! :lol:
Amen.Happy Nail A Beardy To A Tree Day [tm], btw :angel:
Anyway, we have said a lot about the FL already, it's better to let John Wu discover them alone, because he is capable of revealing those hidden "features" as soon as he trusts his experience more than his numbers.
Koshinn will most likely know all these when he reads all those spoilers from Kurai and Kame even if he can't quite document that with what he already told us, but whatever.
Me, I will go back to my latest sport of ooc spamming :angel: and my trusty crossbow which i so much love :)
Seriously, stop with the personal attacks. You make me sad Jini. :(
And what does all these tips have to do with sniping with a first love? The topic I was originally replying to was sniping with a plasma rifle, and now it's become how to use it in a duel or closecombat situation.
Kurai: Aiming the rifle lower actually doesn't help that much with an assault rifle because the bullets don't cause splash damage like plasma blobs do. With an assault rifle it's better to fire a shot at whatever you're aiming at, then fix aim before the next burst. Unless you were talking about real assault rifles and not the tsu epic/pain easer, in which case you'd be right.
And just fyi, I've played on pluto since it went live in.. geez when was that, '02, '03? I've used everything except melee weapons, xbow or beretta.
Happy Nail A Beardy To A Tree Day [tm], btw :angel: laugh out loud, people celebrate the weirdest things...
Anyway, we have said a lot about the FL already, it's better to let John Wu discover them alone, because he is capable of revealing those hidden "features" as soon as he trusts his experience more than his numbers.
thanks, but I dont need to discover anything ;) I can handle the FL, and if you ask around on my server you'll see that quite some people died to my FL. my only point is that most other highlvl weapons are way more effective, if someone with the same skill uses them, and in this particular thread that I think CS range should not be 50% higher than FL range, same with recoil.
would be great if you stop with picking on this 'numbers' thing. I dont only take numbers, I play this game since 2002 (with pausing after nc1) and have gathered some experience with it in this time I think. honestly, this "this gun is so great, you guys just dont know how to use it" talk makes you seem like a smartass. edit: no offence meant.
That's two posts from Lazyboy I've seen edited to "...." by Dirus :lol:
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