View Full Version : 112 resist sweet spot
So I've just found that out through FN's awesome char db thingy.
Why 112? Is it just the point where you get huge diminishing returns?
Dribble Joy
04-04-06, 02:24
You mean 112 armour or resist?
The armour/defence relationship is bi-linear. Dmg absorbtion increases fast from 0 to about 112 armour, but above that it increases much slower.
That's why you see setups with 125/130 tops armour as that's where the hp/armour balance is most of the time.
So I've just found that out through FN's awesome char db thingy.
Why 112? Is it just the point where you get huge diminishing returns?
i dont think thats a good value Oo
My Pe 4 example has 150 - 170 resists (armor + skill) and takes extremely less damage of holy lightnings and CS shots than with 112 resists
Bugs, Jester, Pantho, and a few others all claim 112 fire/xray/energy is the way to go. I usually use around 120. Total I mean.
Pretty sure this will change soon.
I specced my tank with numbers from neoskiller that are said to be sweetspots and it's working quite good.
I didn't actually test it myself and on PEs i tend to go for 125 anyway.
Mostly it's just a matter of balancing health and resists (and runspeed). After 112 it's said there's no real difference until you hit 124, then until you hit 145.
And i'd always go for 124 with 50 more health than speccing 145 or even higher, it's not worth it from my experience.
On the other hand i don't know how exact those numbers are using neoskiller as con resists aren't working linear, i.e. after 100 neoskiller gives more resists than just 1 point. And i think Dirus said that those numbers aren't correct anymore as it's based on neocron.ems.ru and that site is years old.
Just use the setups to start out your character, then lom the setup until it works for you. It's what i do.
I specced my tank with numbers from neoskiller that are said to be sweetspots and it's working quite good.
I didn't actually test it myself and on PEs i tend to go for 125 anyway.
Mostly it's just a matter of balancing health and resists (and runspeed). After 112 it's said there's no real difference until you hit 124, then until you hit 145.
And i'd always go for 124 with 50 more health than speccing 145 or even higher, it's not worth it from my experience.
On the other hand i don't know how exact those numbers are using neoskiller as con resists aren't working linear, i.e. after 100 neoskiller gives more resists than just 1 point. And i think Dirus said that those numbers aren't correct anymore as it's based on neocron.ems.ru and that site is years old.
Just use the setups to start out your character, then lom the setup until it works for you. It's what i do.
Going off the current skill guide, the numbers are still true to thier value, or as near as dammit as can be. You have to remember the hidden values that work thier way in, I can tell you now, that 112 in Neoskiller may be a sweet spot if you work it on paper, in practice it sure ain't. A couple extra points in a certain direction ingame works wonders, whereas a couple of points the same way in NS does sod all.
Just use the setups to start out your character, then lom the setup until it works for you. It's what i do.
QFT.
112 in Neoskiller isnt necissarily 112 in game - but that doesnt mean necessarily that those aren't the skiller number to aim for. BUt still, I've tried dozens of con setups on my chars, and they all seem rubbish so meh.
Dribble Joy
04-04-06, 18:17
i dont think thats a good value Oo
My Pe 4 example has 150 - 170 resists (armor + skill) and takes extremely less damage of holy lightnings and CS shots than with 112 resists
But how much hp do you have?
10% less dmg per zap/burst is great, but if you have 35% less hp it's pointless.
Even though the 'sweet spot' is at 112, the armour/hp balance may lie further up, in most cases about 120-125.
You shouldn't really use the dmg number without taking into consideration the effect of a heal, so minus around 10 from each dmg value to get a real percentage
Why not revive it? :)
With my Chars I always try to reach some sort of soft-cap (112/128/146) in secondary resists and the maximum I can get in ENR.
My Tank is at 149/189/146/112 neoskiller (= about energy cap) for example. My Spy is at 112/127/xxx/xxx
In combination with a heal a high resists setup is often worth more than a health/resist combination. It would be effective if the enemy hits every shot and you don't have a heal running, but that's not what fights look like. I played a very effective Tank setup with 420hp before the heal got 'fixed'. I just wouldn't go down if they didn't hit often in short time.
Actually noone did :p
112 resist in neoskiller might not be accurate, to get a more accurate number first take your con resist multiply it by 0.9 then add that number to your armor resist. If I'm going for the 112 sweet spot I normaly spec 113 and then check ingame with a calculator to be sure its at 112 or over, you really have to have it bang on. Next sweet spot i'd go for is 124 so i spec 125 to be sure and thats a massive reduction of 2-1 damage points from xbow, up from 113 :rolleyes: Think what you like but people have gone and tested this stuff in and out of NF
112 resist in neoskiller might not be accurate, to get a more accurate number first take your con resist multiply it by 0.9 then add that number to your armor resist. If I'm going for the 112 sweet spot I normaly spec 113 and then check ingame with a calculator to be sure its at 112 or over, you really have to have it bang on. Next sweet spot i'd go for is 124 so i spec 125 to be sure and thats a massive reduction of 2-1 damage points from xbow, up from 113 :rolleyes: Think what you like but people have gone and tested this stuff in and out of NF0.9 is not true anymore. ;) And testing in NF is little borked, really. I take about 5 HLs more in NF than outside...
0.9 is not true anymore. ;) And testing in NF is little borked, really. I take about 5 HLs more in NF than outside...
NF is not borked, If I take 38 a hit outside NF I take 38 a hit inside NF, I don't know if the 0.9 is true anymore but i have never seen KK state it had changed.
If you saying it is not true then please do tell
NF is not borked, If I take 38 a hit outside NF I take 38 a hit inside NF, I don't know if the 0.9 is true anymore but i have never seen KK state it had changed.
If you saying it is not true then please do tellIt was stated in some skills&values post of an official. Too lazy to find it now though.
It was stated in some skills&values post of an official. Too lazy to find it now though.
Nah it wasn't cos I'm not lazy and just read the thread :)
60 x 0.9 or 60 / 1.1
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=69477&page=1&pp=30
read through the pages
Nah it wasn't cos I'm not lazy and just read the thread :)
60 x 0.9 or 60 / 1.1
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=69477&page=1&pp=30
read through the pagesThat thread is from 2k3.... :rolleyes:
But now that you say it. Where is it standing? I only see:
Resist Force: 1.0(100%) FOR
Resist Fire: 1.0(100%) FIR
Resist Energy: 1.0(100%) ENR
Resist X-Ray: 1.0(100%) XRR
Resist Poison: 1.0(100%) POR
Locked away, had to use the search function and found a new thread than that one but it did not mention any changes with resists :confused: so i dug deeper. I'm not saying your talking crap, I just havn't seen anywhere, were they state resists HAVE changed, you think we would have know about it...
I only see:
Resist Force: 1.0(100%) FOR
Resist Fire: 1.0(100%) FIR
Resist Energy: 1.0(100%) ENR
Resist X-Ray: 1.0(100%) XRR
Resist Poison: 1.0(100%) POR
Yes thats in both threads
/edit you made me double post god damn =/
Locked away, had to use the search function and found a new thread than that one but it did not mention any changes with resists :confused: so i dug deeper. I'm not saying your talking crap, I just havn't seen anywhere, were they state resists HAVE changed, you think we would have know about it...I remembered discussing about the 0.9 -> 1 change some time ago.
Edit: I was very disappointed that Neoskiller wasn't accurate anymore then and didn't get updated till now :lol:
Dribble Joy
20-06-06, 13:28
That's the skill relationships, like psitol damage is a combination of PC and WEP.
All it's saying is that resist fire/energy/xray/poison is equal to the skill in fire/energy/xray/poison, it is not saying how that translates into an armour total.
As to whether the resist to armour relationship has changed since the end of NC1, it's doubtful it would have any real impact on setups given the scope of the supposed changes, even if it had occured (which I haven't noticed it doing).
Neoskiller works out total resists this way also it seems.
I have a setup with 76 energy in con and 80 in armor, neoskiller says its 148 total so i checked.
76 x 0.9 = 68.4 + 80 = suprize suprize :rolleyes: 148.4 total armor
Neoskiller works out total resists this way also it seems.
I have a setup with 76 energy in con and 80 in armor, neoskiller says its 148 total so i checked.
76 x 0.9 = 68.4 + 80 = suprize suprize :rolleyes: 148.4 total armorDoesn't say that this is also true ingame. And the 'boost' after 100 in skill still bugs me...
Well who cares what it is tbh :lol: neoskiller is a good tool to measure the numbers out of game and it don't matter if they are not the same as ingame. So long as you know what the effects of having 124 resist in neoskiller will be ingame, same with runspeed in neoskiller i doubt thats very accurate but its a good way to measure.
/edit
Koshinn look what you have started >.< yet another resist argument
Koshinn look what you have started >.< yet another resist argument
Which to be honest is pure conjecture seeing as no-one can tell for sure what ( if any) effect these "hidden" and "extraneous" values have on anything.
Which to be honest is pure conjecture seeing as no-one can tell for sure what ( if any) effect these "hidden" and "extraneous" values have on anything.I think it's good like that. Everyone things he's right ;)
Rumour has it that in the old days people specced 125 or more neoskiller armor value on their pes.
Then one day Gunnar (who is known for his gimpy setups) lomed out all his constitution. Him and Sweet Leaf went into neofrag with a 5 slot all ammo mod beam of hell.
With a piece of paper and excell sheet and neoskiller open on another computer they spent some hours in there shooting and speccing points.
After carefull analysis they shared their information with the other FETISH people and the 112 124 145 rule came about.
At first this was information to be kept inside the clan, but then they decided to share it with everyone.
After carefull analysis they shared their information with the other FETISH people and the 112 124 145 rule came about.
At first this was information to be kept inside the clan, but then they decided to share it with everyone. that rule is complete bullshit. those value are the resist values where the dmg numbers that we see get rounded up into whole numbers. There is no sweet spot, there is only the place where it becomes more viable to spec more HP than resists, but even then there is no set value, because of heals this will vary with how good your opponent can aim.
consider yourself noobified.
Dribble Joy
20-06-06, 14:33
After carefull analysis they shared their information with the other FETISH people and the 112 124 145 rule came about.
At first this was information to be kept inside the clan, but then they decided to share it with everyone.
And what exactly are the detailed results of this? Does it take into account hp for example? Is this 112/124/145 thing for any resist or f/x/e?
DJ's been on 124 f/x for years. I didn't use neoskiller though, back in the day when we had to work out the equations and use calculators and pen/paper :p.
Edit: Nevermind.
Dammage reduced a lot going from 100 to 112.
Then 19 per shot from 112 to 124 (even including decimal points, that's a lot of points for a 5% reduction).
Dammage was 18 per shot from 124 to 145, after 145 it was 17.
So including decimal values into the equation 112 is still the main value to aim for. Seems like after 112 a different formula is aplied.
The tests were done with pure energy, and later with flazer and gamma, with evenly spread resists and no sd.
Dammage reduced a lot going from 100 to 112.
Then 19 per shot from 112 to 124 (even including decimal points, that's a lot of points for a 5% reduction).
Dammage was 18 per shot from 124 to 145, after 145 it was 17.
So including decimal values into the equation 112 is still the main value to aim for. Seems like after 112 a different formula is aplied.
The tests were done with pure energy, and later with flazer and gamma, with evenly spread resists and no sd. *sigh* actual changes in dmg aren't that relevant, what matters is the percentage change in dmg and you also need to take into account the dmg that healing takes away, which will increase the percentages more per actual point of dmg lowered at lower values.
Dribble Joy
20-06-06, 15:26
The formula does indeed change after about 112, go look at ems.ru and reverse engineer the relationships. You will find there are two linear dmg-armour equations that intersect at around 112. The first is steep, giving a bigger return for additional armour, the second is shallower.
But as has been pointed out above and many many time is the past, this does not mean that 112 is a sweet spot. Total armour/hp ratio is important as is the effects of healing.
That's why DJ has about 124 armour in f and x and 473 hp. It's probably not perfect as I did the calculations by hand ages ago.
I've now got excel on this comp so I might go back to it all and see where the optimum point is.
I have always thought that higher resists might not make such a big difference with the lower TL weapons. But could make a big difference when blocking damage done by say a holy lightning, the damage from the HL is so much higher. Meaning a greater chuck of the damage will be blocked when you have a much higher energy resist than 125.
As for shelter and deflector and was shocked to find that my 120% damage modded shelter only helped block 1 additional damage point than a store bought piece of crap...
Thats one for all you nutters out there running around with 5 slotters, I had tested my PSI setup about 2 weeks ago too see how much more i could get from shelter. I found no difference even when specced for no damage boost or basic resist 3 and i had it specc for max damage % by going in and out of NF.
/edit well thats on a PE an apu hybrid may gain some benifit from having almost capped or capped shelter.
Dribble Joy
20-06-06, 18:47
Actually I've just gone back over the ems.ru stuff and the flip according to them is at 104 armour (my skillmanager has it at 100 oddly enough though).
First relationship is: Dmg = Armour x 0.66
Second is: Dmg = (Armour x 0.08) + 61
Equate the two: Armour x 0.66 = (Armour x 0.08) + 61
Gives 103.977
So, either:
ems.ru is wrong
The 'discovered' flip point is wrong.
(Were you using a shelter btw? the dmg values you showed were quite low and changes in them didn't seem to be very high across what might be termed significant armour alterations)
Or both.
Worked on Excel for the last hour or so trying to find the optimum hp/armour balance for DJ (was going to do it for a general character, but it would be mind numbingly complicated and would completely depend on setup preferences such as atl and poison).
I'm only going on my skillmanager's hp calculations, but they aren't far off the values I get in game.
I simply took the total armour values, converted them to dmg absorbtion values and combined it with the hp value to get a total amount of damage that the character could withstand. Equal armour in xray, energy and fire.
Assumptions made:
DJ's imp/spell/drug setup; 88 atl and 40 poison (25 specced).
This meant the minimum energy armour was 115, so with f/x at 115 and all other points into HTL.
Ignoring heals :p (for the moment).
It quickly became apparent that the rate I increased armour above 115 consistently was lower than the drop in hp. This meant that the optimum hp/armour balance was...... 115 and 137 htl, 503 hp.
Current setup is 125 and 473 armour. Discounting steel skin (which is just a multiplier that can be plugged in later anyway) I had a dmg absorbtion of 71%, that meant my total dmg absorbtion ability was 1630.
With 115 and 503 hp I have a dmg absorbtion of 69%. Total dmg absorbtion ability of 1689.
W00t..... 3.55% more....
Using the discovered flip point at 112 oddly enough it was also at 115.
The problem here was that with the 112 flip, either the 61 intercept (see above equations) was too low, or the gradient was wrong, or both, so modelling them without some serious testing using high damage weapons is pretty much impossible. In this case I used 65.7 as the intercept, which didn't alter the gradient so I still got 115. Using 61 and altering the gradient to 0.122 so the lines crossed at 112. The drop off was MUCH slower, but still 115 was in theory the optimum.
I did a little theoretical (and horribly baseless) back tracking and found the hp/armour balance was optimum at the flip points either at 104 armour or 112.
All of which was a complete waste of time probably as I probably got it entirely wrong and I didn't consider heals.
With high armour, heals reduce the incoming damage proportionally more than with high hp, so oddly enough the balance between the two is probably somewhere around where DJ is now. Increasing my armour is kinda out of the question anyway, DJ's xray resist is at 50 base, if I start increasing it, my overall dmg absorbtion ability, regardless of heals, would plummet.
All of which is irrelevant as hopefully it's all going to change completely.
What would be the optimum hitpoint/resist for this setup i made, I'd really like to try this on a newly rolled PE one day :p
http://nc.synergyxr.net/setups/?setup=196
*sigh* actual changes in dmg aren't that relevant, what matters is the percentage change in dmg and you also need to take into account the dmg that healing takes away, which will increase the percentages more per actual point of dmg lowered at lower values.
but heal was supposed to be fixed these days wasnt it?
Anyway Giga is right on this one, in order to simulate a pvp scenario, one needs to do exactly what he would do in an actual fighting, meaning use a heal a well.
@Dribble: DJ what exactly are you talking about??? how can you do reverse engineering? Lawyers @kk RUUUUUN rofles :D:D:D
the info from ems.ru is said to be outdated, someone from KK stated the system has changed. but I don't believe that, first reason is that the resist system feels the same as it did years ago, second reason is .. I dont see why KK should change something that was working, when they're not changing so much stuff that's not working.
What would be the optimum hitpoint/resist for this setup i made, I'd really like to try this on a newly rolled PE one day :p
http://nc.synergyxr.net/setups/?setup=196
Lilt,
Since DJ refuses to reveal us how he does Reverse Enginering,
I would easily guess that the optimum setup would be the one that fits the most hits from a specific weapon.
In fact I would choose a weapon that doesnt do locational damage, like a BoH or a HL, and test all resists with it. Test this in NF, but try several scenarios. If you use a less damage capable weapon you get more accurate ( I bet) results, while a tough one may not give you precision. Do this and you'll never have to poke to ems or neoskiller once again
Anyone thought about the ideal primaryDmg / secondaryDmg ratio for energy/xxx weapons?
And heal is mighty, think of that when creating consetups. I never liked that 440+hp setups. Everything above is a waste imo (except on tanks).
but heal was supposed to be fixed these days wasnt it?
It's not fixed :p
Slith, I was using the ratio you use following the same concept, until recently when Zeltarg tried his consetup in nf. I never actually asked him and I dont believe it matters that much.
Like I say for years in this game, you are missing the big picture (not you, I mean everyone that tries to get an extra point here and there).
Fortunatelly, skill is still a lot more important
I think its safe to say, more amour = less damage, and their is probably a point here you get less for your points! So it's deciding the maximum resists you can get mixed with some athletics and alot of health. What the problem I think your trying to work out is:
Is it A. Better to have 125 resists and 350HP or B. 112 resists and 470HP
or something like that? I think it really depends on the person who's playing the character, at the end of the day, resists and health mean nothing if your crap at pvp or if the other person is better, because you still wont win even with the most uber set up EVER! Accept that fact and make the best you can!
The problem is relatively easy to solve guys:
what you need is one runner with all of his con points free to go into nf, and another one using a BoH (better) or a HL (the rifle)
At first all resists are in 0.
I take it as granted that the healing spells are already fixed as Dirus used to say, but if on any doubt,do this using the spell and -whynot? - even
medkits.
At first, you begin by adding 10 resist points in any one of main resists you want to test be it energy, xrr, fire (provided you have a gun that
supports all these ammo). with each shot fired (with the heal+medpacks) you note down the damage taken (the red value that pops from the victim ;))
To make things easier leave health to a safe minimum, for a PE for example leave something like 350 when used with resist buff.
So, when all this ends, you will have a record of the correlation of damage versus resists @ at health level 350 (for a PE).
Next you need to know the various total health levels using a specific setup, and this can be taken from neoskiller (its pretty accurate actually)
and crosschecked in nf.
Finally you make an excel table with those 2 values. The Largest integral number (I think it's called a modulo) taken from dividing Total
Health/Damage points you to the one and only best combo for Resist vs. Health. After shooting one more time beyong this number, our poor Guinnea pig will d.i.e. :p
There you go, no tables needed no neoskillers or ems.ru nothing. Just you, a dedicated friend (the Guinea ;)) a pencil and a paper. The first one that does this, just tell me the number, coz im too lazy to try:D
Edit1: if you dont trust neoskiller, you can also have a go in nf and validate health skillpoints as well
Edit2: I'm betting an artifact libby, that once we follow this procedure, there wont be any 112/124 switchpoints left in setups :d, but that's just a guess
Just wait for the public (character setup) test server. Cause that's what 90% of all the people are gonna use it for like the old one. :lol:
well, there are 2 options to avoid that from happening:
1. kk can reveal us the new formulas, (which erases out any edventure in there, not exactly what I would wanted tbh)
2. disconnect test servers from resists.
But in all, I hope kk learned its lesson... we must use test servers as intended and not as a char setup tool
well, there are 2 options to avoid that from happening:
1. kk can reveal us the new formulas, (which erases out any edventure in there, not exactly what I would wanted tbh)
2. disconnect test servers from resists.
But in all, I hope kk learned its lesson... we must use test servers as intended and not as a char setup tool
Yeah i'd say the same. I don't want to know every tiny bit about the formulas behind resists and everything, there needs to be some random factor involved.
Well, not random but unknown. Atm it's a little too random for my likings. :lol:
i find it very linear actually. why is it that you find it random?
i find it very linear actually. why is it that you find it random?
I'm on about stuff like the insane random damage of HL and several armorparts that are said to be broken.
Or characters that got the exact same runspeed, yet one is just ok while the other one is lightning fast.
:rolleyes:
I'm on about stuff like the insane random damage of HL
thats got nothing to do with resists, but with .. random damage of the HL.
Or characters that got the exact same runspeed, yet one is just ok while the other one is lightning fast.
again nothing to do with resists .. anyway, in some cases the fps might be the reason, since those affect runspeed.
which armorparts are said to be broken, and have you been able to confirm that ingame? I haven't noticed anything of that kind.
I'm on about stuff like the insane random damage of HL and several armorparts that are said to be broken.
Or characters that got the exact same runspeed, yet one is just ok while the other one is lightning fast.
:rolleyes:
HL is designed to shoot like this. It's an ok weapon if used by it's own from an apu, however, everything turns upside down when the apu is getting help from a ppu, but thats another story.
I have said this for the 4th time, maybe more:
With new and powerfull PCs the game has gone extremelly wild.
pistolleros, melees and no pa monks, if setup correctly can run very fast and clip. Heavy Combat tanks especially these with a PA on and riflers stand next to no chance when speed is important. The game's feature in pvp is well, pvp, speed penalties need to just go. If there are still iregularities, then we must also slow the whole thing down, so as those with high pings have a chance as well
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