View Full Version : Pistols VS Rifles
I just wanted to post here that somthing should change about rare pistols vs rifles.
There are alot of little balancing tweaks that are probably mostly opinion. Like i think the FL could use a boost in one area to make up for the tiny clip and its terrable locking speed. Noone agrees with me though :( . Anyways i dont think they are all that big of issues atm.
What does need to be fixed is how the healing light and rog are currently bugged so damage dousent work for half the shots most of the time. I was fighting in nf with a HL and i usaly saw 6-9's come off my targets head with the occasional 50. I once missed 2 shots out of 3 clips and got my target to half hp.
And capping also needs to be adjusted. Pistols cap realy easily and rifles take to many points to cap. it takes roughly 30 more r-c to cap a fl then p-c to cap a exe. Thats a huge diffrence. I want to see mopre high tech rifle pe's out there and i want to start using my rog again. First rare i ever had and i cant even use it anymore.
RogerRamjet
16-03-06, 01:51
I agree with the points thing.
I cap a Judge with 167 Pistol, A Pain easer with the same amount of rifle.
Both same WPL.
Hopefully with some of the things Dirus is working towards that he's mentioned on the forum like in this post (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1962745&postcount=21) alot of damage bugs will be sorted so perhaps the HL damage will be fixed.
As for smaller balance issues i guess holding out for the discussion forums will be a good thing as its this type of thing KK are trying to solve with NC2.2 plus i believe in another post Dirus said rilfe & pistol effectivness at different ranges is on his hitlist for a fix.
Rifles take more WPL than pistols. Skill more Cap easier
judge vs first love:
- I'm doing less damage with the first love due to the small clipsize (should be 10 bursts and not 5 .. judge has 20)
- I'm slower with the first love for obvious reasons (rifle slowdown, the need to skill more r-c compared to p-c for judge)
- my resists suck due to the dex 114 requirement for the first love, compared to only 100 for judge
- you can't skill much psi use with first love, which fucks the frequency of your spells
why am I using the first love anyway? because the girls love it. there's no logical reason to use it beside that.
I agree with the points thing.
I cap a Judge with 167 Pistol, A Pain easer with the same amount of rifle.
Both same WPL.
Realy? I think it must be less noticable at lower level tl rifles. Takes a FL 190 r-c to cap with 150 wep lore but i can an exe with 159 p-c and 145 wep lore. My arti healing light i get 150/170 (i think it caps at 170) freq with 176 r-c and my FL freq is 195/227.
why am I using the first love anyway? because the girls love it. there's no logical reason to use it beside that.
Same reason i used it lol. People gave me free pokes just becouse i used one. The rifle is alot of fun when its not incredably frustrating.
Rifles take more WPL than pistols. Skill more Cap easier
I know how it works, but it should be changed. Thats the point of my post.
Dribble Joy
16-03-06, 03:26
The issue is that currently WEP (or more specifically range) is linked to recticle closure speed, which is why pistols have such a huge range so they can lock as fast as other weapons. Hopefully this is being sorted with 2.2 so that pistols should have the range they should have and riflers actually gain something via their extra skilling.
Personally, I think beyond aiming cap, wep should not affect recticle at all. Pistol range cap should be short, but almost no cap on rifles. Then a rifler could spec equal wep as a pistoler, cap aiming, but end up with the same range. Same skilling, same overall effect, just they have the potential to spec more and increase rnage.
Ya so then if you dont spec way more points as being rifle then pistol, you wont see the only advantage rifles actualy have and where purposely gymped in other areas for.
Raise the wep lore required for rifles? Fine lower the r-c needed to cap them. It would make alot of sense anyways as rifles are so easy to use compared to pistols.
Dribble Joy
16-03-06, 03:55
Equal skilling should yield the same effects. The problem with psitols is that other than PC and DEX, they also increase freq with wep, which if we get real balanceing system in, needs to go, or psitols will do so much more dmg than rilfes.
Power of the weapons at close range should be equal per tl, but the wep skilling should reflect the 'sphere of influence' of that weapon. So pistol, rilfe, heavy and melee wep skilling should reflect their ranged capabilities.
The issue is that currently WEP (or more specifically range) is linked to recticle closure speed, which is why pistols have such a huge range so they can lock as fast as other weapons. Hopefully this is being sorted with 2.2 so that pistols should have the range they should have and riflers actually gain something via their extra skilling.
I actually think that range on pistols/rifles is alright the way it is. sure, you can hit a target at 150 m with a judge for example - but you won't hit much if the target moves at that range. with rifles on the other hand you can reliably hit moving targets at quite a distance - thanks to the better aiming (as you said, range is linked to aim, and rifles got way more than 500 m range in most cases) and the possibility to add a scope to your weapon.
I think pistols and rifles just need to be balanced when it comes to the damage (over time) they do respectively to their TL and the requirements you need to cap them. in my opinion, for judge / first love that would mean that the clip of the FL should be doubled (CS as well) and maybe the damage raised a little bit (not much), while lowering the requirements a little. I don't know much about the other rifles since I mainly deal with plasma or lowtech, and lowtech weapons look kinda balanced to me.
I just wanted to post here that somthing should change about rare pistols vs rifles.
There are alot of little balancing tweaks that are probably mostly opinion. Like i think the FL could use a boost in one area to make up for the tiny clip and its terrable locking speed. Noone agrees with me though :( . Anyways i dont think they are all that big of issues atm.
I want to go a bit father with what really needs to change on monk-melee tanks-pistol users versous H/C tanks & Rifles.
Thats their speed penalty. That's unacceptable. The usual excuse is that a cannon or a rifle are heavier than pistols, melee and spells (actual difference varies from 1-2 kgs, but on the other hand you still have some 50kg available to carry ammo). Since ballance is on its way from the ground up, this must be looked upon. It will also help those that change characters, therefore playing styles.
As for the FL, it's very powerfull and so it needs carefull touches. But if I can run circles around you Terayon, this is the main problem i see. A boost would be to eliminate stamina for the rifle and make it mor spy compatible
Bugs Gunny
16-03-06, 08:17
having high ping nerfs the healing light etc. It also nerfs the xbow.
I noticed this when i had 300+ ping due to provider last week. You'll hit, but won't register dammage.
A low ping high fps user will still do very good with a healing light.
The issue is that currently WEP (or more specifically range) is linked to recticle closure speed, which is why pistols have such a huge range so they can lock as fast as other weapons. Hopefully this is being sorted with 2.2 so that pistols should have the range they should have and riflers actually gain something via their extra skilling.I agree with John Wu. Pistol range is fine the way it is at the moment. The range is already small enough that you can't shoot people at medium and long distance without missing a lot. Aiming at people who are at a medium sort of range takes quite a long time to lock on as well. You probably won't notice that from never PvPing outside NF. ;)
Lowering Pistol range even more will only make people use rifles instead, as they won't be able to shoot someone sat right in front of their face.
in my opinion, for judge / first love that would mean that the clip of the FL should be doubled (CS as well) and maybe the damage raised a little bit (not much), while lowering the requirements a littleThe high end high-tech rifles are that touch harder to cap for a reason, they do a lot of damage, especially the First Love. First Loves completely ******** (beep) the person you're shooting at if you actually hit them.
I was fighting fireproof on my Spy at the Black Dragon Event a while ago; he had a First Love, I was using an Executioner. It's probably safe to say that he didn't cap his First Love since he was a PE, but it still did way more damage than the Executioner per-shot when he actually hit me. The reload wasn't much of a problem, he could do twice as much damage as my Executioner could with a full clip being on target. I only ended up killing him because of the balls factor. We were both on seriously low health, he decided to heal whereas I reloaded and finished him off. If it weren't for that, one individual small burst from his First Love would have took me to maybe 10 health buggering my feet in the process.
Edit: A first love can also do splash damage like the crossbow, it can shoot stealthers.
Increasing the clip size of the CS is one thing, HC tanks are quite easy to kill, they usually end up running away to the nearest 'hunting' zone because they can't stealth, but increasing the clip size of a First Love, which will make it more appealing to Spies and PE's because of the immense damage, that's just mental, especially when Spies can quite easily cap it without nerfing on runspeed.
having high ping nerfs the healing light etc. It also nerfs the xbow.
I noticed this when i had 300+ ping due to provider last week. You'll hit, but won't register dammage.
A low ping high fps user will still do very good with a healing light.
thats another very important factor as well.
RogerRamjet
16-03-06, 10:00
Personally, I think beyond aiming cap, wep should not affect recticle at all. Pistol range cap should be short, but almost no cap on rifles. Then a rifler could spec equal wep as a pistoler, cap aiming, but end up with the same range. Same skilling, same overall effect, just they have the potential to spec more and increase rnage.
I could go with that :D
I was fighting fireproof on my Spy at the Black Dragon Event a while ago; he had a First Love, I was using an Executioner. It's probably safe to say that he didn't cap his First Love since he was a PE, but it still did way more damage than the Executioner per-shot when he actually hit me. The reload wasn't much of a problem, he could do twice as much damage as my Executioner could with a full clip being on target. I only ended up killing him because of the balls factor. We were both on seriously low health, he decided to heal whereas I reloaded and finished him off. If it weren't for that, one individual small burst from his First Love would have took me to maybe 10 health buggering my feet in the process.
I had to heal in that fight. This is what happens when a FL needs a reload.
Reload - 4 seconds.
heal - 2 seconds.
pull out fl and aquire targer - 2-4 seconds depending.
If i didnt heal i still would have ended out worse. The problem is i have to reload and aquire a slow lock every time. It makes a massive diffrence with the clip size.
You can argue the damage makes up for it but thats where it becomes opinion. The fl does do more damage then the exe, a fair bit more. But its reload times, lock times, accuracy, and slowdown dont make up for it. On a pe even more negitives come into play but since its wep vs wep we wont include those.
Anyways if you still dont agree, i recomend lomming to FL to try it out for a few weeks. Maybe you can see how good the gun is first hand.
Bugs Gunny
16-03-06, 11:57
If you're gonna test dammage on a standing still target it does indeed do more dammage, but that's like saying the silent hunter is the best weapon for pvp since it does the most dammage.
Dribble Joy
16-03-06, 13:04
Pistol range, for their current or expected skilling is too high, you can hit targets almost at the clip distance. The fact you can is enough to warrant a reduction, as you have to assume highend/perfect skill.
Lowering the range might make people use rifles more, but if they want the range they are going to have to sacrifice a secondary tradeskill or psu, that will make sure that there will continue to be pistolers.
Pistol range, for their current or expected skilling is too high, you can hit targets almost at the clip distance. The fact you can is enough to warrant a reduction, as you have to assume highend/perfect skill.By "clip" I guess you mean at long distance where they turn into shadow-type figures? You can hit them, but 1) it's quite difficult without a scope (which pistols can't have), the hitbox is very small, and 2) at least half the shots will miss unless you happen to snipe a still target and won't have to move the reticle about, and even then, unless the person is an idiot or simply doesn't notice he's getting shot and losing health, you'll rarely kill someone from sniping them with a pistol.
I had to heal in that fight. This is what happens when a FL needs a reload.
Reload - 4 seconds.
heal - 2 seconds.
pull out fl and aquire targer - 2-4 seconds depending.
If i didnt heal i still would have ended out worse. The problem is i have to reload and aquire a slow lock every time. It makes a massive diffrence with the clip size.
You can argue the damage makes up for it but thats where it becomes opinion. The fl does do more damage then the exe, a fair bit more. But its reload times, lock times, accuracy, and slowdown dont make up for it. On a pe even more negitives come into play but since its wep vs wep we wont include those.
Anyways if you still dont agree, i recomend lomming to FL to try it out for a few weeks. Maybe you can see how good the gun is first hand.I've tested a First Love on a friends account since the reload nerf and the clip does get used pretty quickly, but the damage it does definitely makes up for it. Anyone who goes up against someone with a First Love will walk away or die trying with the response "ouch".
The Executioner is prone to misfires even with the reticle locked on just like the First Love, but not as much. It does less damage compared to the First Love. The only thing I can agree on is the aiming time, it's the reason I prefer pistols more. You can run around with a pistol and just mess around with nailguns like I do, but with rifles, I probably wouldn't enjoy doing that, i'd rather keep my aim on the person until they're dead. It is a tiny bit of a disadvantage, but rifles really are more powerful, especially the First Love. Slower aiming but extra bit of unF so to speak, lol, but those are the main bonuses and malus between pistols and rifles.
Really miss being able to snipe people though. Was always fun hiding behind a hill with a Silent Hunter and just firing random shots at people then stealth next to them as they say "wtf I keep losing health".
If you're gonna test dammage on a standing still target it does indeed do more dammage, but that's like saying the silent hunter is the best weapon for pvp since it does the most dammage.I wasn't talking about still targets, First Love would ******** (beep) still targets even worse.
give me back rolh (the best pistol at old time)
The high end high-tech rifles are that touch harder to cap for a reason, they do a lot of damage, especially the First Love. First Loves completely ******** (beep) the person you're shooting at if you actually hit them.
I was fighting fireproof on my Spy at the Black Dragon Event a while ago; he had a First Love, I was using an Executioner. It's probably safe to say that he didn't cap his First Love since he was a PE, but it still did way more damage than the Executioner per-shot when he actually hit me. The reload wasn't much of a problem, he could do twice as much damage as my Executioner could with a full clip being on target.
I would have to test again to give you exact numbers, but from what I remember a capped judge does about 30 damage per burst, FL does about 60 (on my PE at that time). so you're right, it does more damage _per burst_ (even more than exe, which does more than judge). but rifle RoF is 56/min, pistol RoF is 92/min. so in theory FL does a little bit more damage over time, since judge RoF would have to be 112/min to match the FL damagewise.
but this is NOT taking into consideration that you will miss alot more with the FL, since it fires 4 shots/burst, while the judge only fires 2 shots/burst. the FL also has a fucking high recoil, about 3 times as much as judge. AND the FL has to reload twice as often to do the same damage as a judge. these aspects make the judge a better weapon than the FL - and a tl114 weapon that is worse than a tl100 one while being alot harder to cap doesn't sound balanced to me.
try your exe vs fl example with stationary targets. this test will be in favour of the FL since exe still reliably hits a moving target (1 shot 'burst') and the FL would miss alot more under 'real conditions' (harder to hit with a full burst, plus the higher running speed of a pistol user vs rifle user), but I'm sure the FL will lose.
edit: so I agree, first love is alright damage wise. but the clip should definitely be bigger.
edit2: Terayon, reload time is 2.5 secs for every weapon, not 4. still fucking long if you have to reload every 5 bursts (especially vs apus)
Oh crap, thought it was 4 seconds for some reason O_o . Sorry about that.
So.. nerf the judge.. done :p
So.. nerf the judge.. done :p
nerf the gm ?
Maybe adjust the tl/reqs to make it on par investment wise. Most of the rifles, pistols, heavy, whatever should be reviewd tl/req wise to balance out. Similar investment per tl should be across the board really ie. plasma rares for all classes should be similer tl and point spent to cap.
-A
So.. nerf the judge.. done :p
You leave my judge alone !
nerf holy lightning instead :p
The biggest thing that needs to happen with rifles is the drawing distance of mobs/players. What the hell is the point in using rifles when mobs don't appear on your screen until they are well within pistol range in most sectors?? What is the point in having a sniper rifle in the game when your targets don't appear until you are close enough to poke them with a sharp stick?? Bar the odd exception, sniping at op fights involves moving your crosshair over a deserted screen (or grey depending on the weather) waiting for a hit box to appear for a player that isn't drawn on your screen. Please PLEASE get it sorted soon
The biggest thing that needs to happen with rifles is the drawing distance of mobs/players. What the hell is the point in using rifles when mobs don't appear on your screen until they are well within pistol range in most sectors?? What is the point in having a sniper rifle in the game when your targets don't appear until you are close enough to poke them with a sharp stick?? Bar the odd exception, sniping at op fights involves moving your crosshair over a deserted screen (or grey depending on the weather) waiting for a hit box to appear for a player that isn't drawn on your screen. Please PLEASE get it sorted soon
To be fair I'd rather hunt with a SH/Redeemer than any pistol ever.. PvP is a bit different but still, it's not as bad as you say it is.. But it could be made a lot better.
Ideas for weapon balance in general:
Pistols: Higher freq with fast rec closing at close range, leng req closing and aim problems at ranged.
Rifles: Lower freq, better damage, fast rec close at long range, long req closing at close range with aim problems at close.
Heavy: Med freq, higher overall damage that pistols and rifles, medium rec closing at any range. Aim a non issue at med ranges.
Melee: duh...
Psi: Spells that excel in any of these catigorys on a per spell basis, so as to be on par with whatever depending on what spell your running.
All: Rebalance freezer and para to match eachother, all on level playing field. All or non should have some kind of poison based weapon to match available psi spells.
-A
So.. nerf the judge.. done :p
you would have to nerf all other rare pistols as well then, and still look at the rifles. but I don't have to tell you stuff like this, you got all the numbers and can easily calculate which weapon does what damage over a given period of time - and since that seems to be your job I'm confident the situation can only change to the better.
Realy? I think it must be less noticable at lower level tl rifles. Takes a FL 190 r-c to cap with 150 wep lore but i can an exe with 159 p-c and 145 wep lore. My arti healing light i get 150/170 (i think it caps at 170) freq with 176 r-c and my FL freq is 195/227.
Unless things have changed since I last played before xmas...
How can you possibly FULLY cap an arti Exe with that tbh. My pistol spy had 174 pc, 177 wpl to do this. Also my rifle spy had the same rc/wpl and fully capped healin light, true FL/dissy take a little more than the same TL pistols but the advantages of rifles are immense. Yeah sure clipping range etc, but you get to play in a different style. You can play undrugged sniper (<3) or go close up and compete with pistol spies.
Rifles > Pistols.
You guys spec some weird amounts of weapon lore for pistolers... 175PC 100 WEP will easy cap a good exe/slasher...
Please don't make me re-activate my account to prove you wrong CM ;p
Unless the patches changed something, you wouldn't even come close to capping FRE.
No i didnt cap it, i would need actualy a single point more to cap in p-c. A few percents away in dmg. Freq was capped or 1 less i cant remember.
Dont beleive me, thats fine. Try it yourself.
So.. nerf the judge.. done :p
And after nerfing the judge please give us a bit larger crossbow magazine. maybe 50% more :p
Twok, if you ever gonna come back, you know where you'll reach me
Apocalypsox
17-03-06, 09:35
dont nerf the pistols....there actually rather fine...boost rifles tbh
Bugs Gunny
17-03-06, 10:23
Nerf the judge, i can make a 110 hack 115 poke viable pe with it that caps it.
Nerf the xbow cuz it does 39 dammage per shot to a pe, also nerf exec because it does 35 per shot.
Then make slasher tl 135.
Wyat earp should have spy only reqs.
All pes should play with libby and tl92 from now on, and use medpacks only.
This will ballance things out for the monklovers now that their holy heal is toned to blessed levels, the tl92 and libby can't outdammage the blessed one so that will return them all to a happy state.
but boost the nailgun !!!111onetwothree
Bugs Gunny
17-03-06, 12:47
Lower reload times on the nailgun and give it a 100% increase in dammage or make a tl80ish one.
Then give rifle users the same thing but in the form of blowpipes.
You guys spec some weird amounts of weapon lore for pistolers... 175PC 100 WEP will easy cap a good exe/slasher...
uhm how the hell are you capping a exec with that..? i had 182 pc and 109 wep, to fully cap my all arti exec.. O_o
Twok, if you ever gonna come back, you know where you'll reach me
If the planned balancing patch improves things I'll be back that same day.
I miss cron :(
uhm how the hell are you capping a exec with that..? i had 182 pc and 109 wep, to fully cap my all arti exec.. O_o
That sounds about right, the reason I overspecced wpl was to cap with lower PC and not have to drug for speed.
uhm how the hell are you capping a exec with that..? i had 182 pc and 109 wep, to fully cap my all arti exec.. O_oI have 181 PC to cap my 5 slot all artifact Executioner, and I think I have less weapon lore than you as well (just checked, I have 104 at the moment, still able to LOM out more to stick on hack).
Dribble Joy
17-03-06, 13:56
172pc/56wep to cap a full arti judge. I poke so I can't loose too much psu, so I have high pc.
Course back in the day I had 174 pc, 83 wep and got 160rpm.
more than nerf nerf nerf threads it should be more give us back healing light-ray of good-rolh-boh-liberator those weapons are really crap and bugged from too much time tbh
Dribble Joy
17-03-06, 16:13
Unless it's also bugged, the BoH should be a reasonably decent weapon, but then why use it when you can cap a slasher with not much less defence (could use the BoH with moveon/ppr but would need a fair bit of wep with judge lvl pc).
Apologies for my satetment about 175 PC - went back and checked the setup and it was 180.
Bugs Gunny
17-03-06, 16:43
DJ, there's only one answer, try it in pvp.
It totaly sucks in pvp and suffers from the same problem as the healing light. It's good on slowmoving mobs like warbots and has insane range, therefore it's excellent for warbot hunting.
Also very nice for testing consetups on a stationary target.
Dribble Joy
17-03-06, 17:02
DJ, there's only one answer, try it in pvp.
It totaly sucks in pvp and suffers from the same problem as the healing light. It's good on slowmoving mobs like warbots and has insane range, therefore it's excellent for warbot hunting.
Also very nice for testing consetups on a stationary target.
So it is bugged then. Before the HL/laser bug afaik it was still not a bad bit of kit.
besides the ridiculous amount of WEP needed to cap rifles, somthing has always hit me in this game in the rifle vs pistols balance.
Why would a rifles (usualy 2x bigger and heavier) has less shots then most pistols ??
Judge = 20 shots, xbow = 30, BoH = 40 !!!!
And then we have rifles with 5 shots, and 12 shots !!! (first love, healing light)
I think a decent pistol magsize is 10 shots, 15 at most. 40 is overdoing it.
For instance id like to see a BoH with 15 - 20 shots but decent damage.
Also pistols should have smaller reload times ithink, wich ultimately whould all be tied to the HANDLING stats on the weapon.(more handling = less reload time)
besides the ridiculous amount of WEP needed to cap rifles, somthing has always hit me in this game in the rifle vs pistols balance.
Why would a rifles (usualy 2x bigger and heavier) has less shots then most pistols ??
Judge = 20 shots, xbow = 30, BoH = 40 !!!!
And then we have rifles with 5 shots, and 12 shots !!! (first love, healing light)
I think a decent pistol magsize is 10 shots, 15 at most. 40 is overdoing it.
For instance id like to see a BoH with 15 - 20 shots but decent damage.
Also pistols should have smaller reload times ithink, wich ultimately whould all be tied to the HANDLING stats on the weapon.(more handling = less reload time)
its cus we all go around with bohs right :lol:
Thx for helping my point even more : if some weapon's design wasnt stupid from the start then maybe ppl would use them.
Need examples ? RoG : a rifle that makes more damage the CLOSER you get ??
BoH a PISTOL with more shots then ANY weapon in the game ??
besides the ridiculous amount of WEP needed to cap rifles, somthing has always hit me in this game in the rifle vs pistols balance.
Why would a rifles (usualy 2x bigger and heavier) has less shots then most pistols ??
Judge = 20 shots, xbow = 30, BoH = 40 !!!!
And then we have rifles with 5 shots, and 12 shots !!! (first love, healing light)
I think a decent pistol magsize is 10 shots, 15 at most. 40 is overdoing it.
For instance id like to see a BoH with 15 - 20 shots but decent damage.
Also pistols should have smaller reload times ithink, wich ultimately whould all be tied to the HANDLING stats on the weapon.(more handling = less reload time)
Plus rifle's range sucks more balls than a hooker on the Champs-Élysées atm
Man half the people on these forums just dont know how skills work i guess. Remember that time fireproof killed you with is executioner? Remember how he had been in multiple fight nights and done quite well? Well guess what. I had 159 p-c that whole time. So if you dont think i capped it then how would i have got the freq and dmg i did on it?
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