View Full Version : Possibly the millionth thread about monks and their needing of an aim reticle.
Surely if some sort of "balance" is to be achieved, there should be some thought as to giving monks an aim reticle, to REQUIRE them to have to aim (or "concentrate" for monks) as much as all the other classes, rather than not having to lock on, and do insane amounts of damage with a capped Holy Lightning.
In most cases, the monk does lag damage thanks to the crap netcode and is simply able to target the slightest bit of their enemy when they're behind a wall or some other place a normal character wouldn't be able to damage them through due to physical obstacles being in the way.
This along with them not really needing to wait long for their psi pool to go back up when using psi boosters, it's a bloody lame and extremely unbalanced scenario.
I had an APU myself, so I've done this exact sort of thing against people I've come across, the worst memory being when I was having a Holy Lightning snipe duel with some other pure APU and ended up crashing. I strafed across from one side to the other, crashed, stopping right in front of the Venture Warp in easy view of the enemy hiding at the DRE HQ entrance, got killed, and of course relogged in to find myself dead. lol :mad:
Give them raygun (rifle/pistol) style damage
no retical, no los is one of the key things about being an apu, keep that, just fix netcode and balance the rest by ajusting the effects of a ppu on forign targets and ajusting con/dmg runners take.
Edit I think solo apus are fine.
Imo they should remove reticle from all weapons (exlcuding AoE and Sniper used w/o zoom) and put reticle on AoE APU psi modules .... nc should be like all (mayby not all but only one FPS game im sure got reticle was DeusEx) other FPS games (Q series/ UT series/ CS / whateva). You aim, you fire, you control kickback/spray for burts weapons = you win or you lose ... but its prolly impossible with current netcode.
Imo they should remove reticle from all weapons (exlcuding AoE and Sniper used w/o zoom) and put reticle on AoE APU psi modules .... nc should be like all (mayby not all but only one FPS game im sure got reticle was DeusEx) other FPS games (Q series/ UT series/ CS / whateva). You aim, you fire, you control kickback/spray for burts weapons = you win or you lose ... but its prolly impossible with current netcode.
Systems like that are one of the main reason FPS games such as Q/UT/CS whatever are usually limited to small groups of people. That is 32-64 people. The server's hardware abilities to track where each shot currently is in the air vs where the players are at that time requires a tremendous amount of power.
RentonDraines
12-03-06, 14:54
*cough*planteside*cough*
*cough*planteside*cough*
Yes Sony's bank account is a nice thing to have.
RentonDraines
12-03-06, 15:03
touche'
*cough*planteside*cough*
That's a nasty cough. That stuff's for killing plants so I wouldn't advise drinking it. Besides, Planetside not only has its fair share of "OMG FIX TEH NETCODE!" threads but it's also a different kind of game. Neocron uniquely merges the FPS and RPG worlds and does them both well.
Also, just because PS doesn't show a reticle it doesn't mean it doesn't work in a similar way internally. From Planetside's FAQ
Does PlanetSide use pixel-perfect aiming?
No. PlanetSide uses a cone-of-fire aiming system. When crouched and stationary, the cone is very tight and close to "pixel-perfect." However, as you move, fire rapidly, jump, take damage, etc., the cone will open up somewhat. Projectiles fired with a wider cone may hit anywhere within that cone. It's effectively the same thing - the cone of fire obviates the need to track every projectile individually which is impossible to do in an MMO given the technology we have today.
N
Apart from the aim reticle, I think another main reason they dish out so much damage is due to line of sight, or lack of it with half the APU spells, which is what causes half the problems. Conventional weapons and means of firing have line of sight, which means shots can be blocked by walls, by other players, by mobs or whatever else, whereas if a monk just catches the slighest bit of you, the typical spell they'll be using (psi attack, fire apoc, the range of energy/fire/poison beams) doesn't have this problem.
I don't expect the netcode to be patched up overnight, or at all the way things are right now (not trying to flame, but sounds like one nonetheless), but I think until issues like that are resolved, there should be REAL thought as how to balance spells vs weapons, and the monk class compared to the other three, and put a short or medium term solution in place until the day when it's no longer needed.
Apart from the aim reticle, I think another main reason they dish out so much damage is due to line of sight, or lack of it with half the APU spells, which is what causes half the problems. Conventional weapons and means of firing have line of sight, which means shots can be blocked by walls, by other players, by mobs or whatever else, whereas if a monk just catches the slighest bit of you, the typical spell they'll be using (psi attack, fire apoc, the range of energy/fire/poison beams) doesn't have this problem.
I don't expect the netcode to be patched up overnight, or at all the way things are right now (not trying to flame, but sounds like one nonetheless), but I think until issues like that are resolved, there should be REAL thought as how to balance spells vs weapons, and the monk class compared to the other three, and put a short or medium term solution in place until the day when it's no longer needed.
yea you're right, because solo apus just own all other classes with their uber no los, thats why you see so many of them. I mean god, its not like they drop in 3 hits, and if they do take dmg they have to sit around medkiting (and they have low trans so they can't carry that many medkits anyway). I mean jeasus, I saw some apu kill 3 guys at once the other day.....Oh waight...that was a PE, my bad.
Dribble Joy
12-03-06, 19:45
Once recticle lock has been achieved, there is almost no difference between apus and other weapons.
Where it does become an issue is at range where recticle lock is slower and harder to retain.
I'd rather not give apus a recticle, but raygun dmg reduction over distance might help.
Once recticle lock has been achieved, there is almost no difference between apus and other weapons.
Where it does become an issue is at range where recticle lock is slower and harder to retain.
I'd rather not give apus a recticle, but raygun dmg reduction over distance might help.
or just fix apu/ppu teams and then it will all be balanced, solo apus are anything BUT overpowered
Dribble Joy
12-03-06, 21:23
If anything, APUs solo are almost underpowered with no heal. Though if there is an APU heal/PPU reqs are removed from tl3, apu dmg might have to come down.
Systems like that are one of the main reason FPS games such as Q/UT/CS whatever are usually limited to small groups of people. That is 32-64 people. The server's hardware abilities to track where each shot currently is in the air vs where the players are at that time requires a tremendous amount of power.
And how many ppl is needed to crash a zone in NC ? 50 ? 100 ? ... NC is zone based, changing a zone is like connecting from one to other Q3 server.
Yea i know its only look like that and for sure each zone doesnt have own piece of hardware. But when i played Q3/RtCW/ET on competition level we used to have 3x 16 slots servers on one machine (and it wasnt a high end machine). Problem is that reticle is buried deep in ancient code. So i dont whine about it i only write my wishes.
It's effectively the same thing - the cone of fire obviates the need to track every projectile individually which is impossible to do in an MMO given the technology we have today.
And that PlanetSide solution is imo better than closing reticle.... and its exist in most of wwII/ourtime FPS games (COD/DOD/RtCW/ET/CS/UrT etc etc) and in most of that games you can use crosshair that will show you cone of fire or crosshair that will not show it (i always use cross that dont show it -> better hs aiming for me)
PS.
Does PlanetSide use pixel-perfect aiming?
No. PlanetSide uses a cone-of-fire aiming system. When crouched and stationary, the cone is very tight and close to "pixel-perfect." However, as you move, fire rapidly, jump, take damage, etc., the cone will open up somewhat. Projectiles fired with a wider cone may hit anywhere within that cone.
That PlanetSide statement doesnt tell me that missed shots arnt tracked (in fact in NC missed shots for eg from plasma bursts are tracked bcuz if they hit smt they do dmg) .... it tell me that you can miss when you jump even if your crosshair is aimed perfectly (and it should be like that like in other games).
sanityislost
12-03-06, 23:08
If anything, APUs solo are almost underpowered with no heal. Though if there is an APU heal/PPU reqs are removed from tl3, apu dmg might have to come down.
dude tbh dont need a heal, solo apu's are fine wth medkits.
At least i think so :wtf:
SiL ..:..
Scaramanga
13-03-06, 12:24
Clipping at OP wars.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why monks should not have an aiming reticule.
Bugs Gunny
13-03-06, 14:19
I had some amazing fraps footage of eric c**** clipping around a pillar in tezla for 15 minutes and hardly ever getting outside of it.
fix da netcode and now well tank ppu tean is as goos as apu ppu team tbh
Give monks a cast time that has to be maintained on the target in order to cast the spell, then it means HL can't be spammed, and requires the monk to be able to aim. Changing targets shouldn't stop the cast time, provided that there isn't an interval of no targetting. So if you are in a group of people, the monk can hit the person next to their target if they move straight between hitboxes.
Would reduce spamming spells, and hopefully reduce the chance of someone being killed through a wall as the monk would lose the target when they glided through/around it.
Just a thought.
I had some amazing fraps footage of eric c**** clipping around a pillar in tezla for 15 minutes and hardly ever getting outside of it.
i think that a different set of rules apply to eric since he regularly warps 500m across the map
Give monks a cast time that has to be maintained on the target in order to cast the spell, then it means HL can't be spammed, and requires the monk to be able to aim. Changing targets shouldn't stop the cast time, provided that there isn't an interval of no targetting. So if you are in a group of people, the monk can hit the person next to their target if they move straight between hitboxes.
u mean alike pistol aiming? i would give it a try :)
Clipping at OP wars.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why monks should not have an aiming reticule.
my favourite two arguments are
- it's MAGIC, and you don't have to aim MAGIC
- we need no-aim apu monkeys so people without skill can play neocron as well
:lol: :lol: :lol:
give apus a reticule already! and remove all freeze weapons from the game while you're at it, and neocron will have something that could be called balance, together with the 'adjusted' heals.
edit: whoever says apus are underpowered solo has never fought a good one. psi armor is one of the best (if not the best) ingame (my PE wears fucking tl32 boots because of that), and they do massive damage. they are everything but underpowered.
For a start i'd be more than happy with making spells require LoS LIKE EVERY OTHER DAMN WEAPON. :rolleyes:
That would already help a lot.
u mean alike pistol aiming? i would give it a try :)
Yeah, because then it requires a degree of accuracy, and would also allow for server side checks to be added for line of sight (simple location comparisons based on where players are in relation to the map, purely server side though, or people will just swap files and exploit it :rolleyes: ). This would stop people moaning about dying whilst clipping an object, or dying in another room because the monk has spammed so many HLs that not all of them have finished hitting until they've left. In fact, it'd also stop monks that exploit the lack of LoS for killing mobs by pulling them to the edge of a building, like the DoY bots in El Farid in NC1.
if you give monks los then you need to make spells cast when you click, and have a cooldown, not cast after a specific amount of time, other than that, who gives a shit about a reticle, I know I hardly notice a difference. Its the los.
if you give monks los then you need to make spells cast when you click, and have a cooldown, not cast after a specific amount of time, other than that, who gives a shit about a reticle, I know I hardly notice a difference. Its the los.
definitely... part of the reason why there IS no los is because with the current way spells r cast, we will never hit anyone who runs around behind and out from things if we had LOS req...
but ok more on topic would be that if u want to give monks reticle then give us (and tanks) 5 second stealth (half PE stealth). Why? spies and pes which can be setup to do very sexy dmg has reticles but also can stealth away when shit goes bad... whereas with apus all we get is a trip to the gr if shit goes bad (and did i mention? apus CANT heal NOR s/d!)
so yeah give apus and tanks a 5 sec stealth with reqs (like apu stealth should be 130 APU points so limits hybs kinda like the whole PA3 thing; and the tank stealth would have a HC/MC req or something... or just a class req cuz tanks need luv)
sanityislost
13-03-06, 22:34
fuck that, apu's and tanks dont need a stealth.
SiL ..:..
Scaramanga
14-03-06, 01:32
For a start i'd be more than happy with making spells require LoS LIKE EVERY OTHER DAMN WEAPON. :rolleyes:
That would already help a lot.
Seeings as we have scenery in game this would make perfect sense.
I vote leaving MC tanks without a reticule due to the range issue, however droners are a different kettle of fish entirely. They don't have a reticule do they? Or is that not an issue due to the way they operate?
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