PDA

View Full Version : Saying goodbye to Monkocron?



a4nic8er
11-03-06, 16:51
The opinions expressed in this post are entirely my own. If you don't like them - tough titties.

re: The (currently bugged) TL 10 heal.

I don't understand why PE's should have their own special heal anyway. I guess it wasn't intended as such, but thats what the Jones item intended to help new players has turned into. It is (was before patches 154/155 - and will be again?) not worth using on a tank as they get better effect from a TL 3 heal. Maybe a spies will be using them, but all-artifact TL 3 definately should be better for all classes than any undropable Jones item farmed with trial accounts.


As it stands, the "jack of all trades" is getting quite a collection of specialist stuff that is of no use or completely unavailable to other classes.
Damageboost: Only other class that can use is a PPU and he has a better one.
TL 10 heal: Only other class that can use is a PPU or Hybrid and he has a better one.
XBow: Only other class that can use is a spy, but with DB and better resists PE will "usually" win. This WoC weapon should only be usable by a spy.
Gaya Glove: A specialist item that only a monk should be able to wear.

But wait....
There's more...
Introducing....
Ionic Weapons: With requirements that are low enough to make you believe they were specifically designed for PEs.

Welcome to PEocron?

SorkZmok
11-03-06, 18:18
The patch boosted PEs and APU hybrids to an insane extent.
While tanks got fucked again.

Lets hope they adjust the TL 3 and 10 heals further. TL 3 doing 3 or less a tick now and TL 10 doing 12? Mad shit. :rolleyes:

Tratos
11-03-06, 18:23
Its already been said by Dirus that the TL10 heal changes werent patch in in 155, the reason for that we dont know. Dirus has also said that TL3 heals will be upped next patch.

ZoVoS
12-03-06, 01:49
i use a tl 10 on my tank =]

SorkZmok
12-03-06, 04:38
i use a tl 10 on my tank =]If i had one, i'd use it too. But that can't be it.

Actually, i can't believe KK leaving this shit for the weekend instead of fixing it asap. If i had'nt cancelled my accounts already, i would've done that now. :mad:

My tank needs about 5 minutes to heal up from 50 health. And that's with a constant TL 3 heal/medkit running. Against that theres PEs and APU hybrids who i have to hit constantly to get em down. Because even one burst missed is one burst outhealed.

Actually i think the patch fucked over resists and/or weapon damage aswell. Not sure yet, might just have been lag. Gotta try that out again.

unreal
12-03-06, 08:52
TL 10 heal: Only other class that can use is a PPU or Hybrid and he has a better one.I use a TL10 heal on my Spy now, as it takes only slightly less than half the speed of a Shelter to cast, while pretty much doubling the heal rate of a TL3, even when it's just over half capped.

TL3 heal (capped, 576% damage) by itself is 2-3 health per second, combined with a medkit it's about 4-5.

TL10 heal (way uncapped, 331% damage) by itself is 5-6 health per second, combined with a medkit it's about 7-9.

I think nerfing heals is a good thing, if it's done correctly, and at the RIGHT TIME; APU's are even more powerful now at the moment thanks to their damage output being way larger than any other class in PvP, combining this with crap heals, it's carnage. At least it can work both ways, nibhealing can let you do considerable damage to the APU's PPU buttplugg even when the runner is fully buffed.

I wouldn't actually dare going too far away from a safe zone on my PPU after what I experienced last night in DoY. I was giving Crazy- a hand tagging some genreps, so we enter from the far west entrance, enter the Tsunami Sector, go down the gravlift, Crazy- tags the genrep and I'm force to head into the sidestreet just across from the gravlifts. I then zone out fully buffed and immediately cast holy heal, yet I couldn't outheal 4 or 5 120/120 DoY guards. Instead I had to wait for Crazy- to aggro some of the mobs so they would bugger off long enough for me to get clear. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't Para, end of story. It does feel like DoY guards do more damage than Copbots, as after the patch I was able to outheal about 8 or 9 Copbots in Plaza 2 after punching them all.

It seems PPU's are too easily killable for their class now. I really do think the real problem was with Shelters, especially Holy Shelter, rather than the heals themselves. APU without Holy Shelter is **********, but when it has one, it's resists are godlike. As for PPU's being affected so much by Shelter, I don't mind, it's more enjoyable trying to kill a PPU from before the patch.

What really confuses me is what Dirus has said; That he's going to change heals again in the next patch. Why screw around with gameplay as it was? Heal was "fixed", then "fixed" again to what it is at the moment after Patch 155. Why not test it on a non-retail server before releasing it in a patch which affects us all? When you know it works the way it should, instead of assuming it does, that's the time it should be released and put to the community test.

Edit: Added damage % for reference.

afk2p
12-03-06, 11:52
Heals aren't "fixed" yet. TL 10 missed out on the nerfing and TL 3 got nerfed too much (as did holy, it seems).

ZoVoS
12-03-06, 23:14
if i had my other account active i could make a bundle... i got 11 tl 10 heals ranging from 4-5 slots free in my cabs when i was bored when they first came out

Dogface
12-03-06, 23:26
if i had my other account active i could make a bundle... i got 11 tl 10 heals ranging from 4-5 slots free in my cabs when i was bored when they first came out

Some fool wanted to buy a 5 slot TL10 heal for 4mil today :eek:

Erm, don't kick yourself in the nuts too hard :D

Logan_storm_03
13-03-06, 00:09
I much rather it be PE-0-Cron, since it will acuratly represent the amount of PE % population in the game universe. ;)

onero S
13-03-06, 01:57
I much rather it be PE-0-Cron, since it will acuratly represent the amount of PE % population in the game universe. ;)


I don't understand your point here, imo almost everyone seems to have 2 chars, an apu/ppu and a PE/Hybrid, if PEs become the dominent class everyone will just log their pe

Speshul Edd
13-03-06, 05:37
As someone already said all they need to do is put heals back to the way they were before patch 153 and reduce Holy Shelters effectiveness by 8-12% for self cast and like 5-9% for foriegn cast.

That would make PPU's killable to a single good player regardless of class and also make PPU/Whatever teams mroe manageable to take on.

People say PPU's need to be balanced for PvP and the developers stupidly automatically think Heal instead of asking the Paying Community what they think needs balanced or checking the numerous posts about PPU balancing that there have been.

And majority of them posts all state that the effectiveness of the Shelter is too great.

KK for once in this games half dead existance since Retail listen to the community instead of thinking for them we know what we want and what this game needs FFS we've told you before what it needed and still are yet to see any of it be taken into consideration.

Apocalypsox
13-03-06, 07:22
I don't understand your point here, imo almost everyone seems to have 2 chars, an apu/ppu and a PE/Hybrid, if PEs become the dominent class everyone will just log their pe


i dont understand YOU. there are more anti monk people on the server than you know, and dont use any monk at all (like me) i have 2 Spies and 2 PEs (PE2 is a tech hunter so i can keep a little income)

onero S
13-03-06, 14:21
i dont understand YOU. there are more anti monk people on the server than you know, and dont use any monk at all (like me) i have 2 Spies and 2 PEs (PE2 is a tech hunter so i can keep a little income)


right....so why do you care if the overpowered class is in a blue robe or wearing PE PA. I personaly want the game to be balanced and imo if 1 class is overpowered, then one class is overpowered. Who the fuck cares if that class uses psi or not.


There could be an overpowerd class that kills people by giving them aids, but it would still be overpowered and I still would not like it.

Dogface
13-03-06, 17:50
right....so why do you care if the overpowered class is in a blue robe or wearing PE PA. I personaly want the game to be balanced and imo if 1 class is overpowered, then one class is overpowered. Who the fuck cares if that class uses psi or not.


There could be an overpowerd class that kills people by giving them aids, but it would still be overpowered and I still would not like it.

I care if that class uses PSI. APUs have staggeringly overpowered weapons, just because it's PSI. For a PE to be overpowered, they'd have to have something hell of a lot stronger than Holy Lightning or Holy Shelter/Heal, because not much else compares to them at the moment..

It's even the fact that they're just monks that pisses me off enough.. I hate monks, even if another class was just as overpowered, it would certainly not annoy me as much as those damn men in capes do..

onero S
13-03-06, 20:06
I care if that class uses PSI. APUs have staggeringly overpowered weapons, just because it's PSI. For a PE to be overpowered, they'd have to have something hell of a lot stronger than Holy Lightning or Holy Shelter/Heal, because not much else compares to them at the moment..

It's even the fact that they're just monks that pisses me off enough.. I hate monks, even if another class was just as overpowered, it would certainly not annoy me as much as those damn men in capes do..


I'll say it again, APUs are not overpowered. Did you catch that? Once more...APUs are not overpowered. Apu/ppu teams are overpowered and ppus are overpowered.

So many people complain about apu spells, well if they are so good why don't you see tons of solo apus running around? Because a solo apu is not overpowered at all. Nerfing apu atack does not adress the real issues. If ppus were not in game apus would be very balanced, in fact an apu is the only class that does NOT neccicarily own a tank in world pvp. Yes they have the best weapon, but ever played a solo apu? Have you ever even seen a solo apu these days, the only one I can think of is SiL atm.

Now compare that to the number of people on PEs.



I do think many things need tweaking, ie PPU SPELLS, its sort of a trend, the more ppu a class has the more overpowered it is. So apu/ppu-overpowered, hybrids-overpowered, PEs-overpowered, spys-just right, tanks-underpowered, apus-underpowered.

Dogface
13-03-06, 20:09
And you tell me to listen? I'm not even going to bother with you.

One reason being this thread will just be closed.

npinchot
13-03-06, 21:06
It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't Para, end of story.
You must be the only PPU who doesn't have an anti para spell. Why would you even complain about that.

Bugs Gunny
14-03-06, 01:15
Only thing a paraspell is good for is salvaging or selling to yo's.
It should be removed as part of the reballancing.

Scaramanga
14-03-06, 01:43
I'm all for reducing affect of heal spells, but if PPUs are to remain playable can't the Soul Clusters be upped somehow? Rate of fire or damage output be increased or a rare SC be introduced?

Dirus
15-03-06, 07:58
As someone already said all they need to do is put heals back to the way they were before patch 153 and reduce Holy Shelters effectiveness by 8-12% for self cast and like 5-9% for foriegn cast.

That would make PPU's killable to a single good player regardless of class and also make PPU/Whatever teams mroe manageable to take on.

People say PPU's need to be balanced for PvP and the developers stupidly automatically think Heal instead of asking the Paying Community what they think needs balanced or checking the numerous posts about PPU balancing that there have been.

And majority of them posts all state that the effectiveness of the Shelter is too great.

KK for once in this games half dead existance since Retail listen to the community instead of thinking for them we know what we want and what this game needs FFS we've told you before what it needed and still are yet to see any of it be taken into consideration.

You know, I've sat and stared at this post since it was made.. Constantly typing a reply just to erase it again. Tho I guess it should be said.

This is a prime example of how not to balance a game.

Short sighted "PPU's are the only issue" ideas like this are what caused the game to get into the state it's in. Too much listening to the wrong people..

1) Lets tackle the heal issue.. First off heals do a set amount of healing per tick, that amount is divided into 3 hitboxes. What was happening before 154 was that any time a hitbox was filled, it's allocated healing was discarded instead of being applied to areas that are still damaged. This resulted in Holy Heals going from say 20 per tick with one hitbox to 60 per tick with all 3 damaged. After 154 it was fixed so that when a hitbox was full, the allocated healing went to the other hitboxes still damaged. When you're hitting someone with a weapon that only does 50 damage per shot, with a heal system that gains 20 in strength for every damaged hitbox, you get to a point where the heal rate increases enough to start overpowering any damage you can actually do to the person. Now that you have a constant heal rate you can set it so that weapon damages can be better adjusted since there is no way the heal can ever outpower it at the end of a players life.

2) This bug still exists.. Working similar to the way the above heal bug worked but reversed, the damage a weapon does decreases as hit boxes empty, since instead of having one main health pool, the health is split into 3 sub pools, when one is empty it moves to the next. So if the head was full damage, the body was 2/3 the legs only 1/3, and you took a weapon that did 90 damage per shot. You'd have the current situation where you do 90 damage to the person till their head is empty, then you'd start doing 60 damage till their torso was empty, next thing you know your only doing 30 damage to their legs.

Combine 1 and 2 and you should be able to see why nerfing "shelters" isnt going to fix a thing. The only thing a shelter does is reduce the damage that the player gets hit with. It does not fix the fact that the damage gets reduced due to bad hitbox health code, nor does it effect the fact that heals gain strength on top of that due to the old code for it.

The only thing the "Shelters" bring to the equation. Is that they just amplify the real issues by making those without a PPU unable to handle the extra damage the weapons are forced to do inorder to try and overcome the above issues. The whole point is to make it so that in the end relying on a PPU constantly would just allow the players more "freedom" in their setup, while giving those who want to solo the game on their own a fighting chance. Shelters are too strong, but only in the amount of a gap they're allowed to bring between those two types of people.

But I'll try and keep in mind that "Nerfing Shelters will solve all issues".

Bugs Gunny
15-03-06, 08:27
You tell em Dirus.

unreal
15-03-06, 08:32
It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't Para, end of story.You must be the only PPU who doesn't have an anti para spell. Why would you even complain about that.I do have one, but it's useless against guards because you instantly get re-para'd.

Sylow
15-03-06, 12:22
Too much listening to the wrong people..

Reminds me on a MUD (Multi User Dungeon, text-based online roleplaying game) where i was on the development team. We created three kinds of clerics, good, neutral and evil. They actually had 100% the same code, only the text-messages were different. (So where the one was hurting the enemy with a beam of light, the other had a black sphere, tearing at his enemies soul...)

For several months, we kept it secret that all clerics had the very same code... and for the complete time, the playerbase was telling us that the clerics were unbalanced, one or another side very obviously was much stronger than the other side and that we were loosers and idiots for not fixing it.

I consider this a very good lesson about player and their view of "balance". They should be watched on what they do, as they are very creative in finding ways to use a system to their advantage. There are many among them who are worth listening to, since they really find flaws which the developer missed. But their voice should always be double- and tripple-checked since it might also very well be due to a missobservation or some personal bias.

Bugs Gunny
15-03-06, 12:36
And on top of that, when testing you should considder the fact that different people with the same setup , ping, and fps can do completely different things in pvp.

unreal
15-03-06, 14:21
And last but not least, please actually TEST modifications before applying them to the retail servers.

Apocalypsox
15-03-06, 19:01
tbh make a new test server and try everything- nerf Neptune (even though i really like neptune at times) and make it a test server, would be more useful than a server with a constant 0% population on it.

Tratos
15-03-06, 21:39
tbh make a new test server and try everything- nerf Neptune (even though i really like neptune at times) and make it a test server, would be more useful than a server with a constant 0% population on it.
If they leave neptune how it is and then run a new test server even if it's running on old hardware and not completely up to the retail servers ability then fix the balancing issues. Neptune may no longer be that server with 0% population ;)

Bishop Yutani
15-03-06, 22:19
There was a guy on here the other day saying that he just quit playing NC1. *ONE* Why dont we use one of those servers for testing?

mdares
16-03-06, 03:43
I don't understand your point here, imo almost everyone seems to have 2 chars, an apu/ppu and a PE/Hybrid, if PEs become the dominent class everyone will just log their pe

wut u talkin bout onero? we already do ^_^

why? lets see: while apu hybs have "similar" ppu dmg (slightly lower depending on how much u focus on pool and HL dmg) in terms of effective shelter, and same heals (tl10 capped), PEs can reach similar offensive dmg when dmg boosted. plus PEs have a stealth =p

for me my apu hyb is large scale clan op fighting only; or just when i need to kick some quick ass. but most times im on my PE now...

Nidhogg
16-03-06, 14:59
There was a guy on here the other day saying that he just quit playing NC1. *ONE* Why dont we use one of those servers for testing?
Because there's only one NC1 cluster left and it's still being used for NC1. ;) Besides, the NC1 servers (there are many physical servers for each world in both NC1 and NC2) aren't as modern as the NC2 servers.

N

cRazy-
16-03-06, 15:11
Does anyone actually play neocron 1 at all now?

Bugs Gunny
16-03-06, 15:19
Last time i logged in was before KK closed it off for the old accounts etc...
Just the sound of the intromusic, the copbots , the whole atmosphere..... It made me feel odd.

I had some very fun times in NC1, and even though it's now better than NC1 was , it still seems to miss that real cyberpunk feel.

slith
16-03-06, 17:48
I had some very fun times in NC1, and even though it's now better than NC1 was , it still seems to miss that real cyberpunk feel.

I said drop that weapon, now!

Freeze!