View Full Version : The nerf
Any idea how much the nerf is in % wise?? as i heal for about 15-30 health lol :p (this is with a holy heal)
Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 04:13
tl10 hasn't changed, as for HH, no idea, but probably not enough :p.
tl10 hasn't changed, as for HH, no idea, but probably not enough :p.
HH and blessed heal actually seem to be ok now, a HH heals me for 25ish a tick, blessed does about 12-15, a ppu hybrid blessed heal that is.
TL 10 heal is insane now, TL 3 heal is a joke. TL 3 heals less than a fucking medikit now. TL 10 is pretty much what it was before, if not better. Another huge tank nerf till KK get that fixed. At least i hope thats not the final status. :(
Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 05:36
Meh... universal heal rates ftw...
braydagner
11-03-06, 07:56
KK got it wrong. The ppu was not the one that needed the nerf, it was the apu. The ppu was fine, he should NOT be able to be brought down by one person (excluding a hybrid) and now over vent I hear that a ppu cant outheal a termi. What the hell is this? How is that at all a support class.
What do you see when you go to op wars, monks. More importantly, apus. Why? Because their damage output is over-the-top. Apu/ppu teams are only "feared" because the apu does so much damage. It was never the ppu that was the problem, but because we have so many people saying that the ppus are the deciding factor in ANY fight, then KK had to give into the public's demands. The public, in this case, being a group of people who hate ppus because they like to solo (odly enough I find out that some of these people that hate monks actually have a monk character...a bit hypocritical).
What it comes down to is public demand versus actual balancing. Now that those people that are opposed to ppus are satisfied, what about us ppus? I dont want to have to run around plaza going "Oh no, I better not run into someone with any weapon at all, they'll kill me!!" But from what I hear, thats what it is. And unless I saw wrong, the tl 3 heal did 2 hlt per tick...thats just not right. Are we about to enter Sniper-O-Cron? Far off shots ripping through a holy heal? Or head to Tank-O-Cron where resists actually matter? I think the only thing that WAS wrong was apus.
So bring back the old self-heal. I'll compromise: make the self-casted spells do the same effect/damage, and the foreign ones at half what they are now.
Kind of funny - those that complain about ppus got what they wanted - holy heal nerfed, but their precious pe tl 10 heal stayed the same.
/rant
Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 08:11
It was never the ppu that was the problem, but because we have so many people saying that the ppus are the deciding factor in ANY fight, then KK had to give into the public's demands. The public, in this case, being a group of people who hate ppus because they like to solo (odly enough I find out that some of these people that hate monks actually have a monk character...a bit hypocritical).
APUs do have issues, and yes their dmg can be excessive, but the powers PPUs afford other classes are still too high. They effectively turn APUs, which in general aren't too bad solo, into the old hybrids, APU offence, PPU defence.
Kind of funny - those that complain about ppus got what they wanted - holy heal nerfed, but their precious pe tl 10 heal stayed the same.
/rant
I have allways been an opponent of the tl10 heal. It is too strong.
Anyway, they have said it is broken, as is the tl3, and they are going to be fixed.
i haven't logged in yet to test anything but..
PPUs effect on others has always been the major issue. the BEST solution for heals that i've heard is still DJ's 'universal heal rate' idea.
though I thought major changes to the entire system were in the works as opposed to tweaks to try to fix the majorly fucked up class balance we've been dealing with.
Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 08:17
PPUs effect on others has always been the major issue. the BEST solution for heals that i've heard is still DJ's 'universal heal rate' idea.
Universal heal rate only fixes the main issue, PPUs still affect different classes differently, though the imbalance is nothing like as big.
Braydanger... Heres my stance on rants.. If youre going to rant, then atleast do a little research on the topic before running to the forums and ranting based purely on what you've heard over vent. All the concerns people have right now have already been addressed, over the various threads as they have been brought up.
In regards to heals themselves.. I created a link to a statement on the current heal situation inside the patchnote thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=132831). I even edited the Patchnote thread title to signify that an (Update) had been made.
The current situation is not neccesarily that heals are too weak, but that now the damage and defense amounts are one setup closer to being able to be properly adjusted.
If you didn't hear something from me or another dev directly then don't hold the info you hear as being 100% true. After all, I just found out tonight while replying in a thread in the german community that KK had apparently fired/Dismissed me long ago.
This is all good info but... it still not told me the % nerf on the heal's.
I know its over 25% from the first nerf but now since the bandaid patch its over 50%?
The ppu was fine, he should NOT be able to be brought down by one person
/rant Must be one shitty ass ppu if he gets killed by one person. I can still outheal DB + HL
I tested Holy Heal as healing 220 points (thats over full 15 seconds) And Holy Heal sanctum of doing in excess of 270 points (probably around 300, over the full 60 seconds). In both cases some areas were blacked out mind. I got a Hybrid tank wo caps both PoB and CS to attack me. Technically I couldn't quite outheal, but it would have taken a good 5 minutes do drop me and I was stood absolutley still. Getting nib healed will be truley devestating with the current "does nothing" TL3 of course. Dirus, I hope you do recall that sanctums aren't viable for PvP (heal the enemy) and no PPU ever is going to have quickbelt space for medkits. Overall, I think that the heal nerf is a good thing, but isn't going to change THAT much, save make APU/PPU teams somewhat weaker. The reality still is though that with uber monk armour, an APU with PPU primes still looks pretty much as tough as a tank, so monk-o-cron isnt over by a long shot. The change is though that Holy Heal can't take someone from 50 health to full in the time it takes someone to reload. We'll see how it plays out.
Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 14:31
APUs and tanks do have room for medkits though, and there's still the solo issue. A tl10, medkit using person is very tough.
APUs and tanks do have room for medkits though, and there's still the solo issue. A tl10, medkit using person is very tough.
Well, I thought Dirus said that TL10 was meant to get nerfed as well, just it got missed out in the patch. Another hotfix, or are we going to have to live with APU Hybrids and PEs being the only solo class for a month?
Ok i made this thread to find out how "MUCH" it was nerfed by i dont want really people saying how much its better i just want to know how much it was gimped by please tell me this
#154
The ancient bug was fixed
This fix made heals more powerful due to bandaid boosts
Heals were then toned down 25% of their correct power.
#155
Heals were reduced a further 25% to 50% of their post fix power.
If that makes any sence.
Way too much as i would think.
Would be fine to keep it like this in foreign cast, but as the PPU is defenseless, its not necessary to remove his only line of defense.
And even before 154 it was possible to kill a PPU with a little bit of skill.
But now? Why would anyone play a PPU as a Main Char (not all of us got a 4Slot server) who dont inflicts any Damage, and is now a free kill 4 any capped and Skilled DD?
Dont get me wrong, im not asking for an everliving "Godlike" PPU, but he never was like that.
2 DD could always bring one down, sometimes a tank alone as well (think of a Devourer).
I could accept the Foreign cast to be nerfed, as it would stop ppu + X Teams from being "uber", but thats not the right way. At least not if its not embedded in a bigger Balancing concept.
KK got it wrong. The ppu was not the one that needed the nerf, it was the apu. The ppu was fine, he should NOT be able to be brought down by one person (excluding a hybrid) and now over vent I hear that a ppu cant outheal a termi. What the hell is this? How is that at all a support class.
What do you see when you go to op wars, monks. More importantly, apus. Why? Because their damage output is over-the-top. Apu/ppu teams are only "feared" because the apu does so much damage. It was never the ppu that was the problem, but because we have so many people saying that the ppus are the deciding factor in ANY fight, then KK had to give into the public's demands. The public, in this case, being a group of people who hate ppus because they like to solo (odly enough I find out that some of these people that hate monks actually have a monk character...a bit hypocritical).
What it comes down to is public demand versus actual balancing. Now that those people that are opposed to ppus are satisfied, what about us ppus? I dont want to have to run around plaza going "Oh no, I better not run into someone with any weapon at all, they'll kill me!!" But from what I hear, thats what it is. And unless I saw wrong, the tl 3 heal did 2 hlt per tick...thats just not right. Are we about to enter Sniper-O-Cron? Far off shots ripping through a holy heal? Or head to Tank-O-Cron where resists actually matter? I think the only thing that WAS wrong was apus.
So bring back the old self-heal. I'll compromise: make the self-casted spells do the same effect/damage, and the foreign ones at half what they are now.
Kind of funny - those that complain about ppus got what they wanted - holy heal nerfed, but their precious pe tl 10 heal stayed the same.
/rant
rofl go play a pure apu solo in world pvp and come back in a week. Then say apus are the issue.
Apus are fine, 1v1 tank/apu is very even, pe usualy beats apu, spy usualy beats apu (well the druggie ones). And you have only medkits meaning its worse in world pvp and even worse in group pvp.
Apus are very very very very fine. PPUs and all PPU spells are very very very not fine. Ie how dumb is it that people using a tl 10 weapon can outheal some rares virtualy? Every seen a PE speced to be an apu? No? Thats because APU skills are not overpowered PPU ones are. The issue is that APUs and PPUS complement each other too well and low tl ppu spells are way too effective. My advice, nerf heals even more, buff medkits to the current tl 10 rate, but make them break on dmg.
Bugs Gunny
11-03-06, 20:29
It was possible to kill normal or bad ppus.
5 fetish pes tried killing a good one at crp for 20 minutes, and yes they had skill.
I'm glad ppus got what was needed, and yes i have a fully capped ppu.
Would be fine to keep it like this in foreign cast, but as the PPU is defenseless, its not necessary to remove his only line of defense.
It is the teams job to protect the healing in most rpgs, dont see why this is a huge prob. Why should a healer have a better defence than all other classes? Just because he is devoted to giving life rather than taking it doesnt mean he should have a defensive advantage on the battlefield. He just has to play with tactics now like most other classes rather than run around like a god with few worries untill hes the only one left.
The PPU's role is that of a support character. The GenTank's role has always been that of the "Tank" they're the ones who are supposed to stand in the middle and take the damage, not the PPU who stands there laughing at anything that gets thrown at them.
The PPU's role is that of a support character. The GenTank's role has always been that of the "Tank" they're the ones who are supposed to stand in the middle and take the damage, not the PPU who stands there laughing at anything that gets thrown at them.
that doesn't work in nc, in other games you have enouph cc that this is effective, in nc you don't, ergo if you make ppus less hard to kill than say a tank, ppus are going to get targeted first always, and get flatened in 5 seconds flat. I do agree with the heal change, but a ppu should at least be able to live against any ONE person indefinitly. The solution would be that Holy Heal is stronger when self cast then when forign cast.
Edit: A good ppu
Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 21:41
If PPUs are to be unnecessary to PvP, then they either need to be no more valuable to a team than a combat char or easy to kill. The later isn't preferable as you end up having PPUs to support the PPUs. With the former, you don;t need them to be killable or not, they can be either and it shouldn't affect balance to a greta extent.
Bugs Gunny
11-03-06, 22:53
You try killing a good ppu with one person, when he has holy heal and heal sctum going you still can't.
You try killing a good ppu with one person, when he has holy heal and heal sctum going you still can't.
I agree, I like the changes so far, I am just responding to dirus, if ppus can survive less well than tanks, that will be an issue imo.
I agree, I like the changes so far, I am just responding to dirus, if ppus can survive less well than tanks, that will be an issue imo.
I have yet to state how well overall a PPU should compare to a tank when looking at the amount of punishment they can take. Nor have I even stated where the rest of the classes are supposed to fall. the only thing I have said is that a PPU should not be a class that can just stand in the middle of a fire fight and not have to worry about anything at all. Having to have 3-4 people going after a single PPU is going to change.
ITs just halarious to watch a ppu now get ownd by a spy and pe cause they cant outheal it
plz dont nerf my tl 10 heal:o :(
Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 23:58
You'd think noone ever PvPed before any change that was ever made...
I have yet to state how well overall a PPU should compare to a tank when looking at the amount of punishment they can take. Nor have I even stated where the rest of the classes are supposed to fall. the only thing I have said is that a PPU should not be a class that can just stand in the middle of a fire fight and not have to worry about anything at all. Having to have 3-4 people going after a single PPU is going to change.
i love you dirus :)
The PPU's role is that of a support character. The GenTank's role has always been that of the "Tank" they're the ones who are supposed to stand in the middle and take the damage, not the PPU who stands there laughing at anything that gets thrown at them.
a ppu should not have to worry more than a tank. The "tank" you are thinking of is for pve only in such games, trust me I played wow, the "tank" warriors did not tank in pvp in fact they were quite useless.
The Ottoman
12-03-06, 00:22
ITs just halarious to watch a ppu now get ownd by a spy and pe cause they cant outheal it
In that case the ppu should not go out without any backup. Find another spy and pe and you'll probably get an intresting fight.
a ppu should not have to worry more than a tank. The "tank" you are thinking of is for pve only in such games, trust me I played wow, the "tank" warriors did not tank in pvp in fact they were quite useless.
You only say that since that's how it's always been.
[OT][As a side note, you think tanks were useless for pvp in wow? Ever see the rank 14 warrior killing groups of 5 people on his own?]
You only say that since that's how it's always been.
[OT][As a side note, you think tanks were useless for pvp in wow? Ever see the rank 14 warrior killing groups of 5 people on his own?]
[OT] Thats not a tank, thats a warrior, in wow they arn't neccicarily the same, the only kind of warrior that absorbs dmg was a "tank" or a prot. speced warrior, not a warrior speced for dmg.
The ammount of actualy healing a ppu can do HAS to be more than the ammount of healing other healers can do (as in wow healers) because in games such as wow there is lots of CC which means you don't need to be able to directly outheal everything.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.