View Full Version : Patch Syndromes, bugfests and MMOs
So here's the deal,
I've been a gamer all my life, devoured probably almost 90% of the games since i was a kid... and then the MMO's came.
MMO's are the logical evolution to any gamer, as the console games i usually end in 2-3 days of play. Some of these console games where bugged, but im talking about 3% in the whole.
What is wrong with MMO's? Why cant any company release a 95% bugfree game???
Its been like this on every MMO i play. Game is bugged, patch comes, and the whole scenario gets worse. Then a patch#2 comes to patch the previous bugs from a supposed fix.
Seriously, i dont mind to wait 3 months for a patch... as long as the current release is stable and the patch that will come is tested and watched properly.
Neocron seems like one of the best games to me around as:
1 - Its an adult game. Drugs, sex, obscenity, etc..
2 - It has deepness in plot and ingame politics.
3 - Its a well constructed universe where there's always something to do.
4 - Did i mention drugs, sex, obscenity?
5 - The community seems ok and helpful, aside the ocasional scammer and swearer.
6 - Its a cyber punk adventure, something apropriate, rather then the spent and commercial bullshit of magic and elves and all that crap. We loved it one day, now we surely hate that. (isnt that right, precious?)
So, i plead KK to really make Neocron stable, and fix all the crap bugs that are unaceptable. I mean, there are issues on this game that on other MMO run perfectly smooth (like mob dmg registration, syncs, xp's, levels, etc).
There is no excuse for some bugs on the game. I read someone's explanation about the game being built on a "temporary engine" that is constantly being added stuff like a "Frankenstein".
Sometimes, its better to start all over from the beggining and identify issues and code problems... so in the future the whole thing doesnt fall down when you add a simple gun to the game.
Anyway, i really like this game, and hope KK makes it smooth and stable. It deservs that. Neocron really rocks! =)
Well in terms of balance Dirus is digging right down to the source and fixing it truly removing all the bandaids added over the years to the tired and outdated system and expanding that system in the process.
It seems KK is going through each element at a time (-ish) and actually putting effort into fixing and replacing rather than papering it over, as with evo 2.1 they have dramatically improved the look of the game and the exterior engine is now alot more firendly to the PC running it (well for me, my FPS are much higher) and now its the turn of the balancing systems.
This patch just did it for me.
My hc tank was the last class i enjoyed playing. But the patch screwed that for me.
Now monks and PEs absolutely rule everything. My tanks medkits heal faster than my tl 3 heal, my guns wont reload properly and it seems pvp damage got screwed aswell.
:(
So here's the deal,
I've been a gamer all my life, devoured probably almost 90% of the games since i was a kid... and then the MMO's came.
MMO's are the logical evolution to any gamer, as the console games i usually end in 2-3 days of play. Some of these console games where bugged, but im talking about 3% in the whole.
What is wrong with MMO's? Why cant any company release a 95% bugfree game???
Its been like this on every MMO i play. Game is bugged, patch comes, and the whole scenario gets worse. Then a patch#2 comes to patch the previous bugs from a supposed fix.
Seriously, i dont mind to wait 3 months for a patch... as long as the current release is stable and the patch that will come is tested and watched properly.
Neocron seems like one of the best games to me around as:
1 - Its an adult game. Drugs, sex, obscenity, etc..
2 - It has deepness in plot and ingame politics.
3 - Its a well constructed universe where there's always something to do.
4 - Did i mention drugs, sex, obscenity?
5 - The community seems ok and helpful, aside the ocasional scammer and swearer.
6 - Its a cyber punk adventure, something apropriate, rather then the spent and commercial bullshit of magic and elves and all that crap. We loved it one day, now we surely hate that. (isnt that right, precious?)
So, i plead KK to really make Neocron stable, and fix all the crap bugs that are unaceptable. I mean, there are issues on this game that on other MMO run perfectly smooth (like mob dmg registration, syncs, xp's, levels, etc).
There is no excuse for some bugs on the game. I read someone's explanation about the game being built on a "temporary engine" that is constantly being added stuff like a "Frankenstein".
Sometimes, its better to start all over from the beggining and identify issues and code problems... so in the future the whole thing doesnt fall down when you add a simple gun to the game.
Anyway, i really like this game, and hope KK makes it smooth and stable. It deservs that. Neocron really rocks! =)
You can't in anyway compare a console game to one designed for the PC. Console's use one set of harddware compenents that never change. PC games have to be designed to use a basically unlimited amount of different hardware/software setups.
The fact were such a small company compared to others such as Blizzard or SoE ect. Means development happens at a much slower pace. We only have 1 main coder who can prepare patches properly atm, and he was busy dealing with exploits.
Patches bringing bugs is pretty much unavoidable, in some cases the test results may not be 100% accurate due to other possible changes on the test server that are not yet ready to be carried over. Other's slip through due to instances where one particular thing was patched to do something specific, but had an unknown effect on something that was not looked at during testing. i.e. by adjusting X, Y was in some way effected as well. Since we were only trying to adjust X, we didn't test Y.
The current goal of Evo 2.2 is to go back and "de-Frakenstien" parts of the game. The recent changes to Heals is part of that process, but it's only a small part of what Evo 2.2 will cover.
This patch just did it for me.
My hc tank was the last class i enjoyed playing. But the patch screwed that for me.
Now monks and PEs absolutely rule everything. My tanks medkits heal faster than my tl 3 heal, my guns wont reload properly and it seems pvp damage got screwed aswell.
:(
In regards to the Medkit vs TL3 heal. I had to consider them both being used at the same time when making adjustments. This is one of those areas where I can't cater to everyone's play styles since one makes the player inheriently more powerful then the other. In order to put a "cap" on the situation, I have to penalise those who don't use all the options available to them :(
The current situation is only temporary, TL3's will be increased further, with the rest being watched. Also there is still a number of other issues effecting the games balance, that fixing the heals has now brought out into the open.
Console games can be unbalanced too, fighting games are unbalanced all the time but you don't get any adjustment to that until the next installment.
turbineS-line
11-03-06, 00:36
truly removing all the bandaids added over the years
- Adjusted strength of all heal spells (Nerfed by 25%).
In the community talk, so many players spend days on end tinkering away about how to balance the game, what needs to be done with PPUs, foreign cast, and other things. They mention tanks needing to improve because the class isn't worth their metal, and they go into such long, long detailed explanations about every idea they have.
I've seen hundreds, and hundreds of ideas, and I've also seen many good ideas. Far from bandaid fixes.
Patch #154 was after Dirus said there would be no more "bandaid fixes," and the team would directly try to fix the game's balance.
Patch #154, and you offer the community a HEAL NURF?
I almost consider it an insult to the community's time, effort, and involvement that their input was overlooked, and in place of (A hard task, of course) looking into a few good ideas (Which Dirus' job to filter out the bad ideas from the good, and filter them back to the heads) and possibly throwing them into game, the community is granted a heal nurf.
We were pissed at Patch #154, and the patch-for-a-patch #155 fixed the problems in Patch #154. We are happy. But, we are back to square one for balance, damn-near. Little progress has been made, but at least some has been made.
Is this the end of the patches for this month? When will we make that desperately needed "little more progress"? Will we continue to ride on this "1 patch every x months" or what?
One more thing, Neptune is dead. Turning Neptune into a test server would greatly improve player's morale. When the test server was going, it was actually very fun messing around in there. It was as if that was the sandbox, and everyone would go to let some steam out. It also showed that the powers that be were actually doing something.
Right now, we're basically on the outside looking nowhere, Dirus is here, and that's fine, but we really need a test server. It would improve player morale, it would give the devs somewhere to work with new ideas, so Patch #154 will NEVER happen again, and everyone would know what progress KK is making.
A test server needs to happen.
btw: thx for the patches, see you in a few months
y.
Neocron seems like one of the best games to me around as:
1 - Its an adult game. Drugs, sex, obscenity, etc..
SCORE! :D
2 - It has deepness in plot and ingame politics.
Only to a limited extent, the politics really have very little impact on, well... anything.
3 - Its a well constructed universe where there's always something to do.
:wtf:
4 - Did i mention drugs, sex, obscenity?
:D
5 - The community seems ok and helpful, aside the ocasional scammer and swearer.
Swearing is something you'd get anywhere nowadays, besides - you have sex and drugs, but swearing offends you? :eek:
6 - Its a cyber punk adventure, something apropriate, rather then the spent and commercial bullshit of magic and elves and all that crap. We loved it one day, now we surely hate that. (isnt that right, precious?)
PO-TA-TOES!
So, i plead KK to really make Neocron stable, and fix all the crap bugs that are unaceptable. I mean, there are issues on this game that on other MMO run perfectly smooth (like mob dmg registration, syncs, xp's, levels, etc).
So do we.
There is no excuse for some bugs on the game. I read someone's explanation about the game being built on a "temporary engine" that is constantly being added stuff like a "Frankenstein".
Genesis engine IIRC, the name seems to have slipped from me.
Sometimes, its better to start all over from the beggining and identify issues and code problems... so in the future the whole thing doesnt fall down when you add a simple gun to the game.
Anyway, i really like this game, and hope KK makes it smooth and stable. It deservs that. Neocron really rocks! =)
I give him... 3 months.
:D
Nah, Excellent post, very optimistic. Good show dude.
@dirus There is no way to address the heal problem, it will be persistent so long as healing is conjunctively used with buffs. I agree a PPU should be able to outheal most anything. He accomplishes this in oart by not only healing well, but reducing damage taken. Have a muse on that line of thinking.
I also belive that this new situation heavily shifts the focus to PE's, so I suggest possibly Have buffs affect heals negatively. Boost the heals to sensible levels, by all means, but have the buffs that reduce damage become something of a hinderance while the heal is on. The players should by all means be able to regain health, but not with the impunity that some classes do.
As I've stated the changes to the Heals is only a small part of the reconstruction that will take place with Evo 2.2. All it did was removed the issues relating to Heals and Hitboxes from the balance equation. A nerf was neccessary with the changes to the heals, otherwise if left alone the Holy Heals for example would have been healing for around 60 health per tick on their own.
There is still a number of other issues that need to be corrected before the rest of the balancing can be completed. With the new forums opening up in the near future we have atleast 9 Major topics lined up to be discussed. These 9 main topics cover a number of smaller topics within themselves. Consider the Heal changes to be a small part of one of these 9 main topics.
Edit: Notice I keep saying "we". I may be the community rep side of the project, but that does not mean I am the one doing all the work. There is 3 of us (Thanatos, John Doe, & Myself) doing the majority of the discussions and planning relating to Evo 2.2. I'm saying this mainly because I like to give credit where it's due. This whole thing is not me alone.
In regards to the Medkit vs TL3 heal. I had to consider them both being used at the same time when making adjustments. This is one of those areas where I can't cater to everyone's play styles since one makes the player inheriently more powerful then the other. In order to put a "cap" on the situation, I have to penalise those who don't use all the options available to them :(
The current situation is only temporary, TL3's will be increased further, with the rest being watched. Also there is still a number of other issues effecting the games balance, that fixing the heals has now brought out into the open.
Good to see tbh that the cause of the problems is now being looked at and corrected. Hope abounds... :D
Question though, when you say all the possible options available to them, how does say tl10 heal factor into that calculation. Meaning its intended as a slightly better version of the tl3, so if the tl3 is underpowered, would it stand to reason that more, if thats possible, players will turn to the tl10, which is a product of run that is only available to a certain char type, leading people to either buy them from profiteers who have a extra slot to run the mission over and over, or leading them to make a newbie alt simply for that purpose followed by a quick delete.
If that is the intention, ie. a complete replacement for the tl3, would it not stand to reason that there be a alternate way to receive the item so that these methodologies are not employed? I'm not sure the intention of the item was what it has become tbh. As it stands now frankly there is little reason to use a tl3 at all as it makes more sense to use the tl10 if you have the means. I personally use all my old tl3's as drop bait... There is relatively no reason to have tl3 at this point. The problems with the tl3 just add to its already declining user base.
I guess I personally am just concerned that when you change the underlying systems, other aspects of the game economically and otherwise are not ignored. When you introduce a new item, one should take into account the effect it will have on the other items already available. When you change how a item works, the same attention should be payed. These were problems of KK in the past. I would hate to see it continue when attempting to make so much needed progress in game balance.
-A
Good to see tbh that the cause of the problems is now being looked at and corrected. Hope abounds... :D
Question though, when you say all the possible options available to them, how does say tl10 heal factor into that calculation. Meaning its intended as a slightly better version of the tl3, so if the tl3 is underpowered, would it stand to reason that more, if thats possible, players will turn to the tl10, which is a product of run that is only available to a certain char type, leading people to either buy them from profiteers who have a extra slot to run the mission over and over, or leading them to make a newbie alt simply for that purpose followed by a quick delete.
If that is the intention, ie. a complete replacement for the tl3, would it not stand to reason that there be a alternate way to receive the item so that these methodologies are not employed? I'm not sure the intention of the item was what it has become tbh. As it stands now frankly there is little reason to use a tl3 at all as it makes more sense to use the tl10 if you have the means. I personally use all my old tl3's as drop bait... There is relatively no reason to have tl3 at this point. The problems with the tl3 just add to its already declining user base.
I guess I personally am just concerned that when you change the underlying systems, other aspects of the game economically and otherwise are not ignored. When you introduce a new item, one should take into account the effect it will have on the other items already available. When you change how a item works, the same attention should be payed. These were problems of KK in the past. I would hate to see it continue when attempting to make so much needed progress in game balance.
-A
Situations like this are being discussed with Evo 2.2. We're aware of a number of issues that changes can and will present. Hopefully when we open up the discussions publicly we will be able to catch all remaing concerns that we may have over looked.
In the community talk, so many players spend days on end tinkering away about how to balance the game, what needs to be done with PPUs, foreign cast, and other things. They mention tanks needing to improve because the class isn't worth their metal, and they go into such long, long detailed explanations about every idea they have.
I've seen hundreds, and hundreds of ideas, and I've also seen many good ideas. Far from bandaid fixes.
Patch #154 was after Dirus said there would be no more "bandaid fixes," and the team would directly try to fix the game's balance.
Patch #154, and you offer the community a HEAL NURF?
Go look up a solution that would work on the forums that dousent involve a heal nerf of some sort. Seriously go try.
I almost consider it an insult to the community's time, effort, and involvement that their input was overlooked, and in place of (A hard task, of course) looking into a few good ideas (Which Dirus' job to filter out the bad ideas from the good, and filter them back to the heads) and possibly throwing them into game, the community is granted a heal nurf.
We were pissed at Patch #154, and the patch-for-a-patch #155 fixed the problems in Patch #154. We are happy. But, we are back to square one for balance, damn-near. Little progress has been made, but at least some has been made.
So basicly, "Bla bla bla, i dont like the heal nerf so noone does." right?
Is this the end of the patches for this month? When will we make that desperately needed "little more progress"? Will we continue to ride on this "1 patch every x months" or what?
I would like more progress also but i dont know what they have to do. Still though what i do see coming from kk seems small for a team working 40 hours a week (i think). Then again i dont play neocron based on what they say might happen in a patch some time in the future :p . They usaly arnt what im expecting.
One more thing, Neptune is dead. Turning Neptune into a test server would greatly improve player's morale. When the test server was going, it was actually very fun messing around in there. It was as if that was the sandbox, and everyone would go to let some steam out. It also showed that the powers that be were actually doing something.
Right now, we're basically on the outside looking nowhere, Dirus is here, and that's fine, but we really need a test server. It would improve player morale, it would give the devs somewhere to work with new ideas, so Patch #154 will NEVER happen again, and everyone would know what progress KK is making.
A test server needs to happen.
btw: thx for the patches, see you in a few months
Aparently ones on the way.
Heavyporker
12-03-06, 01:43
I'm uncomfortable with the idea of the psi heal becoming so crucial now, even though I'm a psionic (albeit APU).
How about offering stronger alternatives? What about making the + CON and +hlt drugs and implants offer benefits beyond mere stats? Something like increased internal healing factor (say, +1 hp a tick, before any psi heals or medikits come into the equation) once you hit some high point (110 HLT? 80 CON?)
There as an idea posted a long time ago, but im not sure who posted it. Was all about a medical skill for healing, reviving, stuff like that and then some. Was real interesting.
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