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Thanatos
10-03-06, 17:06
All server will go down at 4 PM CET (GMT+1) to apply patch #155. This will take about one hour.
Thanks for your patience.

- Fixed long sync times.
- Fixed loot drop algorithm.
- Fixed stealth.
- Fixed reload problems.
- Removed snow from possible weather effects.
- Reverted the NPC damage changes.

- Further adjusted heal spells.
- Fixed the high sympathy rewards from missions.
- Removed Phoenix weapon mods from traders, they are now only available from the Phoenix database.
- Replaced hacking requirements on Ion guns with the appropriate weapon skills.
- Removed Devourer parts from the Tiki club reward.
- Fixed Ion drones.

Update on the Current Heal Situation. (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1961062&postcount=27)

Fero
10-03-06, 17:09
cool... rawr :)

Seraphin[69]
10-03-06, 17:10
But I don't read anything about HN mobs in travel not taking damage and turrets beeing undestructible to players.

Is that fixed aswell ?

gstyle40
10-03-06, 17:11
thats what im talkin about, way to go kk! hopefully this patch works :)

Jagrfelm
10-03-06, 17:12
Well, if this Hotfix really keeps what it promises, then you really did some good Work.

Brammers
10-03-06, 17:13
']But I don't read anything about HN mobs in travel not taking damage and turrets beeing undestructible to players.

Is that fixed aswell ?

Hacknet was fine yesterday to me.

cRazy-
10-03-06, 17:16
Yup if this patch goes smoothly, all the problems which related to me are gone.

l8m0n
10-03-06, 17:17
well if its going to do what it says then gg ;)

Torq
10-03-06, 17:18
if this works...... it'd be cool.. but I can't understand why the (probably) good patches have to be hotfixes all the time.....

Synchronize
10-03-06, 17:18
']But I don't read anything about HN mobs in travel not taking damage and turrets beeing undestructible to players.

Is that fixed aswell ?
nor the new break mission for NEXT epic
Did the patch fix it also ?
and if it dont fix, did we have to wait next patch or a temporary solution will be implement ?

Greats

Sgt. Pepper
10-03-06, 17:23
nor the new break mission for NEXT epic

what are you talking about?

Jodo
10-03-06, 17:23
Sounds good. I eagerly await. :cool:

Dribble Joy
10-03-06, 17:26
TC reqs on the guns too?

Anyway, good stuff.

Tratos
10-03-06, 17:40
Sounds good, although it would have been fun having a pure hacknet character with kick ass real world guns to :lol:

Nice to see the other fixes too hopefully the patch will now regain its schweet rating which i thought it would be yesterday :p to bad snow has been completely removed, would have been nice to appear in some of the really high mountainus areas very infrequently still during the rest of the year.

LiL T
10-03-06, 17:45
I got a feeling the PE's got stealth nerfed in this from what I heard how heal are working ....

/edit not tested it myself but at - 94 SL would you bother ?


... :rolleyes:

Blixxa
10-03-06, 17:49
Hopefully the "Rebuff Bug" will be gone with that fix, or at least not be as strong as now due to shorter sync times.
Lets hope all the best....

Skusty
10-03-06, 17:50
Aww, my snow is gone, now I can't feel like home.

pabz
10-03-06, 18:10
before i say that KK are the shizzle, i'm just gonna quickly check it out....

EDIT: KK are the shizzle, you've just redeemed yourselves and it didn't take 6 months

Altho i was just about to go get a dev from the tiki mission :(

Synchronize
10-03-06, 18:24
what are you talking about?
The NEXT epic Mission 4 Is break now

You can't get the Kaboxorid BP by Almachim (try in english, french and german 2 time)

LiL T
10-03-06, 18:28
before i say that KK are the shizzle, i'm just gonna quickly check it out....

EDIT: KK are the shizzle, you've just redeemed yourselves and it didn't take 6 months

Altho i was just about to go get a dev from the tiki mission :(

[ edited ]

Sgt. Pepper
10-03-06, 18:37
The NEXT epic Mission 4 Is break now

You can't get the Kaboxorid BP by Almachim (try in english, french and german 2 time)

well, why i have expected this *grrr*

it was a few weeks ago, when i had a long conversation about some NPC-dialog-bugs with Carnage and Farril.
I reportet some logical mistakes espacially in next epic.

I also had an idea about this Karboxorid thing....
you have to bring 2 chemicals to make the medicine for an eployee.
The first one you get at BT HQ, the second one is karboxid made from a BP from an almachim at el farid.
I didn' like the way you have to do the mission
run to BT HQ (you get the fiorst information about the almachim here), run to NExt HQ (get told how dump you are, that you havn't got the karboxorid yet), run to almachim, get BP, get Karboxorid buildt, run back to next HQ.

The idea was, to have the opportunity to run directle to the almachim, after you heard about that guy at BT HQ. (so you could safe some time and shelter at NExT HQ ^^)
So, there should be 2 ways to complete that mission. 1. the old long way (where you make the NExT guy angry, cause you returned with only 1 chemicle first) and the new faster way.

I did some coding to show Farril what i mean and how it could be done. The answer was, that he liked my idea, but not the way i wanted it to be implemented. He told me, he found another way to do the code changes and it's up for testing now (5 or 6 weeks ago)

Looks like my idea causes some trouble now :(

edit: try something ... restart the mission, go to BT HQ, and then directly to the almachim (without bringing the first chem to BT HQ)... maybe this will work.

i'll report the trouble directly to farril, when i've found out what causes it.

pabz
10-03-06, 18:50
[ edited ]
[ edited ]

LiL T
10-03-06, 19:19
[ edited ]

[ edited ]

Synchronize
10-03-06, 19:19
edit: try something ... restart the mission, go to BT HQ, and then directly to the almachim (without bringing the first chem to BT HQ)... maybe this will work.

i'll report the trouble directly to farril, when i've found out what causes it.
I try it, It dont work, Script is break

You know what we said in france ? (i'm in IT computering)
If it's dont break dont touch
If you have an idear but the consumer dont ask, dont do it
If you must do it cross you're finger :lol:

The real problem is that unitary test in NC are never perform, when you change something you test it righ away, you dont wait, and you test the whole, not just what you have do.
Like every one i make mistake, but this sort of direct mistake is a lake of normal test and i try never do it ;)

Hoernerice
10-03-06, 19:26
again thantos. u forgot cm.

pabz
10-03-06, 19:27
[ edited ]
seems to be where most ex NC players have gone. i never understood why

Dribble Joy
10-03-06, 19:30
tl10 heal is still insane.

LiL T
10-03-06, 19:34
seems to be where most ex NC players have gone. i never understood why

they are not of this (forgot word) style of play, see if I think
Neocron is being pretty shit I'll go and play games like EVE-online. Not WOW, elfs wizards ores what ever they are called can be forgoten about as far as i care. There are like 100 games with this shit already..

LiL T
10-03-06, 19:38
tl10 heal is still insane.

TL 10 heal is a TL10 heal above TL 3 and monk damage is still well above this damage so I could not give a shit. [ edited ]

Sgt. Pepper
10-03-06, 19:39
I try it, It dont work, Script is break

You know what we said in france ? (i'm in IT computering)
If it's dont break dont touch
If you have an idear but the consumer dont ask, dont do it
If you must do it cross you're finger :lol:


yeah, "never change a running system" ...
this is so true :(

pls PM me some details ...
- does the almachim talk to you?
-- what is he saing
-- if it is the regular dialog for that mission, when does it break down
and so on.

I don't have a Char that can do NExT Epic atm, so i can not test it on my own.

BlackDove
10-03-06, 19:43
From what I read in the bug report thread, Holy Heals seem to have been fucking obliterated. PPU have finally been fucked.

All Hail KK. Freaking-Finally.

RusSki
10-03-06, 19:48
Its really great that u have fixed some of these things BUT.... WHY IS IT THAT U CAN FIX SOME OF THESE THINGS IN 24 HOURS, YET YOU COULDNT FIX THEM IN THE 7 OR 8 WEEKS ( maybe more) YOU HAD SINCE THE LAST PATCH??
If this was a real company someone would HAVE to be held accountable. Today 5 members of staff from my company were sacked on performance based issues. If kk was the same i doubt you'd have any staff.
Now you can edit this post or ban me all you like but the truth hurts and at the end of the day you cannot hide from it.

There is no excuse at all! And to be honest when providing a 24/7 service, saying sorry really doesnt cut it.

In my job i have a 0.2 doa % on the pc's i handle. So far this year i've handled 1145 pc's (this is including a 2 week holiday and the end of christmas where i obviously could not have done any work). Yet i still got my ass chewed off cos it isnt good enough. Everyone makes mistakes but repeatedly making mistakes would suggest poor work ethic, lazyness, lack of required skill/experience and/or none existent desire to perform well.
I ask you, do you actually strive to ensure the best possible performance? Because from what everyone who plays this game has seen, it would seem that you certainly do not.

There really is no excuse!

Signed/ Unhappy PAYING customer.

Tratos
10-03-06, 19:49
From what I read in the bug report thread, Holy Heals seem to have been fucking obliterated. PPU have finally been fucked.

All Hail KK. Freaking-Finally.
I think "Balanced" is the correct term, lol

I was arguing forever with somone earlier as they reckon that a PPU should be the main tank in NC O_o when they should infact play the usual healer role - hiding behind their party not getting hit taking care of the rest in saftey, not standing at the front taking shit from everything while a hulking pile of muscles with a plasma cannon hides behind them whimpering.

Good progress KK.

LiL T
10-03-06, 19:54
From what I read in the bug report thread, Holy Heals seem to have been fucking obliterated. PPU have finally been fucked.

All Hail KK. Freaking-Finally.

If you are talking BS prepare to die

blackpheonix
10-03-06, 19:55
hmm well havent checked other bugs but as i cant use weapons bit hard see attached screenie :P as you can see i have no SI.

EDIT : relogged 5/6 times still no joy

EDIT im a dosy c**t lol sorted

Synchronize
10-03-06, 20:14
I think "Balanced" is the correct term, lol

I was arguing forever with somone earlier as they reckon that a PPU should be the main tank in NC O_o when they should infact play the usual healer role - hiding behind their party not getting hit taking care of the rest in saftey, not standing at the front taking shit from everything while a hulking pile of muscles with a plasma cannon hides behind them whimpering.

Good progress KK.
Yes but if PPU cant heal nor other nor themself, what can they do ?

It's always easy to "nerf" a caractere than to try to balance them
So far i remember
nerf to Tank
nerf to Hybrid
nerf to Pe
nerf to APU
nerf to PPU
nerf to Spy rifle
nerf to SPY Pistol ....

The prob is not to nerf the heal because without heal how other caractere can level ?
I understand if u're a full cap one without the need but noob and mid level ?

Nerfing heal means nerfing Mobs because u cant level at low level and if u nerf mobs u have to nerf weapon, and after u need to nerf everything

So thinking the heal nerfing resolve everything is a bit short sight.

For me (i have only mid level caractere) it's pain in the ... because i dont now how i can level without a PPU with me now ! I try with my x/50 tank in el Farid, and i die in 10 min killing by a small scorpion because i just heal 20 hp/15s

For, non APU, non PPU PvP, is certainly a great think, but i dont PvP so i dont see the "great" in that !

Greats,
PS : I dont try to flame, just to exprime my advice on the heal nerf

Dribble Joy
10-03-06, 20:19
TL 10 heal is a TL10 heal above TL 3 and monk damage is still well above this damage so I could not give a shit. [ edited ]
You really have no interest in overall balance do you?

Nerfing Holy Heal a bit won't do much, even if it's down to blessed level, PPUs will still dominate.

Mr Kot
10-03-06, 20:24
hmm well havent checked other bugs but as i cant use weapons bit hard see attached screenie :P as you can see i have no SI.

EDIT : relogged 5/6 times still no joyNot got a tradeskill glove on, have you?

Tratos
10-03-06, 20:27
I dont think mobs being too hard is the problem we're just used them at what they were, mobs are now more of a challenge - which i think is good for the game, as PvM was rather laughable in terms of difficulty in some areas, especially wasteland hunting - perhaps to balance the new challenge the experience from them (not the money, would bring down inflation a bit) would be a sort of compramise.

Ofcourse its not the solution as we're still awaiting on the overhaul from Dirus but the fixing of the heal bug and the reduction in healing power is some progress, not a solution.

As i never said this nerf had actually brought about a solution - just progress.

ZoVoS
10-03-06, 20:36
i prefer lower heal rates... true i havent tryed doy 3 or a mc5 yet... but if i use my tank i doubt ill have to much problem due to ma high resist's talored specificaly for them areas... people just need to learn to adapt n rely on medikits more =]

npinchot
10-03-06, 20:43
Yes but if PPU cant heal nor other nor themself, what can they do ?

Yea what this guy said.

Most people seem to agree TL 10 heal should be stronger than TL 3.
Holy Heal is 30 tech levels higher than blessed heal. Shouldn't TL 85 be stronger than TL 55?

blackpheonix
10-03-06, 20:46
Not got a tradeskill glove on, have you?

lmfao i fort i changed it back :P ty

Synchronize
10-03-06, 21:26
I see a lot of problems camming with the heal nerf

the levelling is realy hard now, since mobs are not change, you need to use lots of medikit and having low progression.
Having test it, the progression when you rech x/20 became realy slow, about 10 to 20 time slowest than the previous progression. Expcept if you level with a high level PPU who can heal you.

A new PPU cant level because he have nothing to help other player now.

I think the special cave like DOY or MC5 are realy near impossible to do, keep your MC5 stuff they're price will go realy up in no time

Saying you dont care because you have year of experience and your resist level are great (because you have MC5 stuff new player cant have) dont change the problem

So now, a player cant make money (because he cant kill mobs easyly) cant make XP (the same) so cant level this will turn the new player out of the game in no time.
When i look the % presence of the server i'm not sure is a "great" think to do !

For the APU it's worth
An APU cant heal, and have to be heal by a PPU (I know thats the part of the problem) But also the APU have a little resist and little HP so they can be kill realy easy.
I know you all think it's a good idear, but what to people who like to play them (not like the pseudo power of the APU but just playing them ?)
At mid-high level the entire concept of the game is to have the APU help by a PPU. They cant so they stop playing

When APU stop, and PPU stop also because they cant play what you will have ?

I'm sure the next nerf will touch one of the other classe because they are too much powerfull etc...

This type of "balance" dont help NC, they make people who play well and normally they're caractere without searching "power" close they're account

Balancing a game complicate has NC is not just changing a think to make people who need it miserable, but thinking of all the change to do to make playing nice.

Zheo
10-03-06, 21:31
But no City Merc soul light solution, not that i really expected one but i was hoping :D

Kierz
10-03-06, 23:28
wow.. it took you 3 months for thursday's patch, which in all honesty was the WORST patch I've ever experienced in my 18 months of nc, buttt today(friday) jesus facking christ you've more than made my day, I don't know how but I'm now syncing in 2/3 seconds (for the past year and a half I haven't synced in less than 10 seconds EVER - mostly 20-30).

BEST PATCH EVER, and it only took you a day :p
ppus balanced(! - yes the cocky fuckers should die 2v1) AND all my login problems, fatals, long syncs all fixed <3 <3 <3

[VP]Orion
10-03-06, 23:55
Might I suggest that you actually change back that you only can get the hacksoft mods from phoenix? Phoenix are supposed to be for the highest lvl software (and hackers), why would you only let the highest lvl hackers get access to the mods? They should be available in the shops for everyone as it used to be.

Zheo
11-03-06, 00:05
wow.. it took you 3 months for thursday's patch, which in all honesty was the WORST patch I've ever experienced in my 18 months of nc, buttt today(friday) jesus facking christ you've more than made my day, I don't know how but I'm now syncing in 2/3 seconds (for the past year and a half I haven't synced in less than 10 seconds EVER - mostly 20-30).

BEST PATCH EVER, and it only took you a day :p
ppus balanced(! - yes the cocky fuckers should die 2v1) AND all my login problems, fatals, long syncs all fixed <3 <3 <3


Yes have i have noticed my loggin problems have been very good, two small bugs today, 1) heal visual effect didnt cut out, and 2) one of my spells disappeared. But bother where fixed by relog so nothing to write home about :D
I agree very good patch

Bugs Gunny
11-03-06, 01:02
Finaly the ppu problem is being dealt with.
In about 14 days we'll start seeing more vehicles and other classes.

One thing though.... revenge drones.....

Dirus
11-03-06, 01:23
revenge drones.....

I'm aware of the revenge drones. However to be perfectly honest, I've been rather busy with other issues lately and adjusting them just to have to redadjust them again later on was not high on my priority list.

With the Ion Drones now fixed, I'll look into adjusting the Kami drones. Keep in mind tho one of the largest issues with them is not their damage, but is mainly directly related to the netcode's effects on people's ability to combat them effectively. So any change I make to them will infact just be a bandaid solution.

Bullt
11-03-06, 01:57
Those that level chars will be the once most grateful to see tl3 heals corrected (soon I hope). Zoning and reloading works brilliantly now :D
Big applause for #155 !

Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 04:10
blah
All aspects of the game can be changed.

You may not know this but mob dmg is as high as it is now because of PPUs.
Back when PPU spells were introduced, people suddenly found killing things really hard, so mob hp and dmg was increased.

So mob dmg can be altered.

WL mobs are fine with these heal changes, you can use cover and tactics. The problem is the caves.

imper1um
11-03-06, 06:16
- Added checks against the outpost blocking exploit.
You, my awesome DEV team, are gods.

Zephar123
11-03-06, 07:15
Yes but if PPU cant heal nor other nor themself, what can they do ?

It's always easy to "nerf" a caractere than to try to balance them
So far i remember
nerf to Tank
nerf to Hybrid
nerf to Pe
nerf to APU
nerf to PPU
nerf to Spy rifle
nerf to SPY Pistol ....

The prob is not to nerf the heal because without heal how other caractere can level ?
I understand if u're a full cap one without the need but noob and mid level ?

Nerfing heal means nerfing Mobs because u cant level at low level and if u nerf mobs u have to nerf weapon, and after u need to nerf everything

So thinking the heal nerfing resolve everything is a bit short sight.

For me (i have only mid level caractere) it's pain in the ... because i dont now how i can level without a PPU with me now ! I try with my x/50 tank in el Farid, and i die in 10 min killing by a small scorpion because i just heal 20 hp/15s

For, non APU, non PPU PvP, is certainly a great think, but i dont PvP so i dont see the "great" in that !

Greats,
PS : I dont try to flame, just to exprime my advice on the heal nerf

you have an x/50 tank and your having problems leveling????????
I swear some you gotta learn hwo to play. My spy is in x/50s and solo warbots all day with him. I generally kill atleast 20 beofre I die. Sometimes I go all night. MY tank is i think rank 58 and solos wbs all day long.

Dribble Joy
11-03-06, 07:39
And if I can solo chasers, then so can he.

Bugs Gunny
11-03-06, 13:13
I've capped two tanks, 4 pes, 3 spies and 3 monks solo.
People are just too used to stand somewhere with their guns clicking and a ppu healing them all the time.

calim
11-03-06, 13:57
I've capped two tanks, 4 pes, 3 spies and 3 monks solo.
People are just too used to stand somewhere with their guns clicking and a ppu healing them all the time.

Bugs, you forgot to mention that you have a lot of time ;)

Synchronize
11-03-06, 17:34
you have an x/50 tank and your having problems leveling????????
I swear some you gotta learn hwo to play. My spy is in x/50s and solo warbots all day with him. I generally kill atleast 20 beofre I die. Sometimes I go all night. MY tank is i think rank 58 and solos wbs all day long.

With PE/SPY no prob because you are at distance and dont need to heal you
I solo with my pe without problem but my PE take less and less damage than my melee tank !
And for cover explain me how you cover with a melee ?

So try it with a melee one and explain me how you survive ?
Just for info to gain 500hp it take 6 min with heal alone and peharps 3 min with heal+medikit let said 75s with heal+medikit+heal sanctum. so i want to know a place where you can leveling and where you take less than 6 HP/seconde when you battle !

Rookie-Doo
11-03-06, 18:15
Wo bleibt die deutsche Übersetzung? :confused:

ThrillHousE
11-03-06, 18:39
German board is not responding, so i post it here! Please bring back the old Neptune settings, atm its the same crap like the others!!!

Zephar123
11-03-06, 18:42
With PE/SPY no prob because you are at distance and dont need to heal you
I solo with my pe without problem but my PE take less and less damage than my melee tank !
And for cover explain me how you cover with a melee ?

So try it with a melee one and explain me how you survive ?
Just for info to gain 500hp it take 6 min with heal alone and peharps 3 min with heal+medikit let said 75s with heal+medikit+heal sanctum. so i want to know a place where you can leveling and where you take less than 6 HP/seconde when you battle !

with a melee fighter the trick is to run behind them and stay behind them its tricky but actually alot of fun to do.

Kierz
11-03-06, 23:54
Could you add the same code for zoning to logging in? as in your body isn't shown till you're out of sync (I'm still getting login problems 3/4 times - I musta just been lucky y/day:rolleyes:)

Tratos
12-03-06, 00:13
So the new syncronising checks dont display your body untill you can move it now?

ZoVoS
12-03-06, 00:58
with a melee fighter the trick is to run behind them and stay behind them its tricky but actually alot of fun to do.

well well sumbody who actualy knows how to play meele... aint seem them in a while :P

Dogface
12-03-06, 01:19
with a melee fighter the trick is to run behind them and stay behind them its tricky but actually alot of fun to do.

lol you think this works throughout a whole fight? Mobs will always face you eventually.

This tactic is useful yeah, but it's not exactly a viable tactic when you're trying to fight a mob with aoe damage, like high level fire mobs.

Synchronize
12-03-06, 09:30
with a melee fighter the trick is to run behind them and stay behind them its tricky but actually alot of fun to do.
I know it, but difficult to do with more than 1 mobs, and usual place to level are place where mobs are not alone :rolleyes:
I'm certainly not a good player with a tank, but it strange to unbalance the game for "normal" player because high level good one are beter.
And I can understand the nerf with the Holy heal (I never understand why a PPU alone cant be killed by a melee tank) but why nerf the starting heal ? it's not a problem with PvP and make PvM a bit hard for so pitty player i am :p

Kame
12-03-06, 15:14
synchroniz i think you whining too much about the heals.
this is a chagne that most of the pvp community was hoping for (nerfing holy heals and generally ppus), and im glad ppu looks more like a normal class now then a godmoded little blue bitch with a cape.

Honetly KK, i expected nothing more but to see all the bugs from yesterday fixed, good job, altough everything shoudl be tested before you let us play (leave server down for 3-4 hrs maybe ?)

Some netlag issues :

DoY Assault Unit in DoY tunnels lv 3.
That one is weird, usually when ur client gives you the animation from the hits you take most of the health you lost will jump back, and at other times you are behind a corner and you drop.It defenetly is client/server issue i think and with the current heal situation it makes tunneling v insane i think.

Flying vehicules.
They have some of the worst lags in this game, especialy the DoY bomber.When shooting at it, not only you have to anticipate where its going but also where the lag will 'warp' it.

Melee
Altough melee is a very strong class, it does deserve attention.sometimes ur client shows you hit (visual cue on target with laserblades, and sound) but no damage is seen.At other times you dont think you because you might be too far but you do damage... O_o

Taylos
12-03-06, 15:43
Hm it's you who is really whining about PPUs. Or am I mistaken, is a PPU really a class as every other ? Then I really wan't them to have some nice weapon. Like everyone else does. In case of Dex Using Pistol shooters it's been three newer things. Xbow, Regent and now Hacknet. Ok the Crossbow was quite some time ago. But what did Monks get all the time ? PPUs nothing APUs lost their Pestilence.

Dogface
12-03-06, 16:04
Hm it's you who is really whining about PPUs. Or am I mistaken, is a PPU really a class as every other ? Then I really wan't them to have some nice weapon. Like everyone else does. In case of Dex Using Pistol shooters it's been three newer things. Xbow, Regent and now Hacknet. Ok the Crossbow was quite some time ago. But what did Monks get all the time ? PPUs nothing APUs lost their Pestilence.

What are you talking about?

APUs have the most damage, regardless of (realistic) resists !
PPUs take the most damage and look at their constitution and strength !

I don't think APUs or PPUs deserve anything with the state they are in atm. It's nicknamed Monkocron for a reason. Giving them anything nice at this point would just make them too tempting to play.
Even though APUs lost their precious pestilence, and PPUs gained jack, who are still the reigning classes in Neocron?

We need non monk classes to look more attractive..

Synchronize
12-03-06, 17:21
first Kame, For the bug report it's the other thread, this one, is for "discution" so repost in the other or your bug may pass unnotice

I'm not "winning", i'm for reforming PPU/APU unbalance, and nerfing holy heal is a way every player ask for, so why not lets try it.
But i dont understand the nerf of the TL3 Heal. The "normal" PPU dont use it, he use the TL10 -> Blessed -> Holy
So why nerfing the heal every non PPU player use to nerf PPU ?

For me it's not a PPU nerf because the PPU have a Blessed/Holy and he is less nerf than other player now.
It just make the other starting class difficult to level and has DogFace said : "We need non monk classes to look more attractive"

Dirus
12-03-06, 18:13
But i dont understand the nerf of the TL3 Heal. The "normal" PPU dont use it, he use the TL10 -> Blessed -> Holy
So why nerfing the heal every non PPU player use to nerf PPU ?

The TL3 is the basic heal.. new players start with it. It can't be set so that capped Chars like GenTanks rely on it to survive in combat. What people are missing is that if the TL3 was upped to the exact same strength as Patch154 then all those who start out with one in the newbie MC5 would basically be immortal.

When patch 154 went line I was able to roll a new Preacher and solo the caves in Mc5 without a care in the world, by the time I went through there 3-4 times I was able to one shot kill most of the npc's in there, while at the same time not getting hurt at all for the most part.

The endgame is one thing, but I can't allow beginner items to be balanced for endgame use. Classes like GenTanks will need alternative methods to heal more effectively then the TL3 allows them to.

The days of "noob" buffing PPU's with low TL buffs is going to come to an end.

Fero
12-03-06, 18:49
are you suggesting all tanks to spec tl 10 ?

Have you tried chewing one medkit and TL 3 heal self right now on tank?

rawr man :/
lower ppu req on that thing and lets see what tanks can do with it.

unreal
12-03-06, 18:54
When patch 154 went line I was able to roll a new Preacher and solo the caves in Mc5 without a care in the world, by the time I went through there 3-4 times I was able to one shot kill most of the npc's in there, while at the same time not getting hurt at all for the most part.Hybrids are overpowered at 0/2. Since a spells damage is affected by Psi Power as well as the respective APU or PPU skill, it's no surprise that hybrid monks are easily able to defend themselves and dish out the damage compared to a newbie tank, spy or PE of the same rank. The armour a monk has gives them a nice advantage too, since they get a lot of energy and force resist from their armour, which helps with levelling on the typical energy-and-force-damage-dealing mobs from the start.

You can level them way faster than any other class because of how much damage you can do with the AoE spells, being able to have the same PPU skill as a typical combat PE, which means being able to heal well and have good defense and offense, but not have to bother using Nightspider, while getting more % out of the same spells. Not forgetting a hybrid can cast them faster due to being able to have way more PSU.

After "fixing" the Heal hitbox thing, I didn't really think the "nerf" should have been THAT bad. In my eyes Shelters are the problem. Most classes rely too much on Shelter, Holy Shelter being the main concern here, normal Shelter isn't bad at all.

The typical PPU/APU team are naffed without Holy Shelter, it makes an insane amount of difference to any fight. If a PPU is nib-Sheltered, before the patch with his slightly almighty Holy Heal, it was still easy to take him down with either one or two persons shooting him, after the patch 155 modification, it's just pathetic. A PPU no longer needs to be nibhealed or nibbuffed for a few people constantly shooting him to take him down, even with a Holy Heal running.

Edit: I levelled my new monk character to psi 95 within 3days of creating him. I wasn't doing a big old 24/3 grind eaither, it was just light levelling... Compare that to any other class, it's mental.

Satty
12-03-06, 19:12
The endgame is one thing, but I can't allow beginner items to be balanced for endgame use. Classes like GenTanks will need alternative methods to heal more effectively then the TL3 allows them to.
Rebuild Greg's Medikits (Scary Terrormauler)... usable with Constitution 85 and heal nearly a TL-10 Spell (so usable for a Tank with a Result like a PE). So you can balance the Healrate for a Tank seperatly (only Tank's will use it).

Dribble Joy
12-03-06, 19:51
Eitther tanks will have to rely on ppus (bad thing) or medkits would have to be 'casted', just having more powerful medkits would be a bit... iffy.

pabz
12-03-06, 20:08
The TL3 is the basic heal.. new players start with it. It can't be set so that capped Chars like GenTanks rely on it to survive in combat. What people are missing is that if the TL3 was upped to the exact same strength as Patch154 then all those who start out with one in the newbie MC5 would basically be immortal.

When patch 154 went line I was able to roll a new Preacher and solo the caves in Mc5 without a care in the world, by the time I went through there 3-4 times I was able to one shot kill most of the npc's in there, while at the same time not getting hurt at all for the most part.

The endgame is one thing, but I can't allow beginner items to be balanced for endgame use. Classes like GenTanks will need alternative methods to heal more effectively then the TL3 allows them to.

The days of "noob" buffing PPU's with low TL buffs is going to come to an end. Noob buffing is the only type of 'debuff' that normal none apu players have for dealing with ppus :(

Also, I really don't like the idea of tl10 heals being a requirement for anything other than monk chars. They are only given to monks who do the Mr Jones missions, and it's forcing other char types to purposely role monks just to get the item. The same goes for PE stealth tools. Why are they only given to pistol PEs?

Kame
13-03-06, 00:28
[ edited ]

As far as noob buffs coming to and end well thats scary.I like it as it is right now(u can defenetly kill an average skilled ppu with a solo class by using the right techniques)

nostramo
13-03-06, 00:28
Have u already noticed, that the Healnerf increased the power of HAB dramatically?
The HAB is now as powerfull as HAB+Noobbuff was before 155!

Everything getting antibuffed ist easy to take down now!

Does that really solve the monk-problem and does that really make other classes more viable in fights when HAB is now the "key to kill"?

Before 155, me as PPU supporting a Tank/Spy/PE against APU-PPU could at least compensate the HAB with good movement, good recasting SD, good healing!
Now I can hardly keep my non-monk DD alive after a HAB!

The gap between having SD and not having SD has to become smaller!

Right now, SD is decisive, but it's the heal that has to be castet during combat and should be more important than having SD for next two minutes.

RogerRamjet
13-03-06, 00:58
[ edited ]

Theyre a paying customer like you Kame, theyre entitled to their opinion too.

[ edited ]

Dirus
13-03-06, 01:15
The gap between having SD and not having SD has to become smaller!

Right now, SD is decisive, but it's the heal that has to be castet during combat and should be more important than having SD for next two minutes.

My stance exactly. This is one of the main things the changes to heals has brought to light. The difference in Defense a PPU brings to a fight is what made it seem like Heals were the problems all along. Heals weren't the root of the problem, they just seemed that way due to the fact that Shelter & Deflector basically cut any damage done after armor/resists were calculated by another 70% atleast. The strength of the heals at the end of a players life more then made up for any damage the player took when combined with the hitbox issue lowering damage as the player was injured.

Defense is going to be hardcapped. The reduction in damage due to the hitbox issue is going to be fixed. Headshots will always do headshot damage ect. Main reason for this is to allow more freedom for players who do not want to play with a PPU 24/7. Those who wish to rely on a PPU would be able to go lighter on their defenses in favor of other skills by speccing less resist wise or combat wise relying on a PPU to buff them back up to the caps, but if they caught without their PPU by someone who specced themselves to be more self reliant but not as diverse then they'd start getting in trouble.

RogerRamjet
13-03-06, 01:20
So will Private Eyes become more all rounded?

Dribble Joy
13-03-06, 01:22
Making heals affected by S/D would help, but it's messy.
I'd rather shields add %HP, but I dunno if that's possible with the current mechanics (but then you need other things because of the extra hp so... bleh).

Dirus
13-03-06, 01:27
So will Private Eyes become more all rounded?

Basically yes.. PE's and Hybrids will be more or less balanced on the same footing, that is In the middle of say a Tank and an APU when looking at the defensive abilities of a Tank vs the Offensive abilities of a APU.

Basic goal is to have Hybrid PSI's be equal to Rifle PE's since both are more well rounded Defense wise and aren't exactly short range fighters. A Hybrids range is more similar to a Rifle user then a Pistol user.

RogerRamjet
13-03-06, 01:36
Basically yes.. PE's and Hybrids will be more or less balanced on the same footing, that is In the middle of say a Tank and an APU when looking at the defensive abilities of a Tank vs the Offensive abilities of a APU.

Basic goal is to have Hybrid PSI's be equal to Rifle PE's since both are more well rounded Defense wise and aren't exactly short range fighters. A Hybrids range is more similar to a Rifle user then a Pistol user.

While we're on rifle PEs, is the Ray Of God gonna be fixed? PLEASE!!!!

Dirus
13-03-06, 01:42
While we're on rifle PEs, is the Ray Of God gonna be fixed? PLEASE!!!!

Stupid mod powers.. I almost edited your post instead of replying :p

Yes all the weapons are going to be redone, so are all the implants, and all the armor, and all the drugs ect..

Armor wise right now I'm roughly playing with 114 sets of normal armors, basically 570 individual pieces based off 8 main resistance rules. That does not include PA's or Special drop only armor like the Titan vest ect. Of course those numbers are still subject to change.

Weapons will most likely get the same basic treatment and the variety will be increased. I have the rough damage numbers worked out for the weapons based off 19 different "types" ranging from TL1 to TL130.

nostramo
13-03-06, 01:47
Defense is going to be hardcapped.
Does that mean, PPUs become more easy to kill?

I wish, beside the effects a PPU has on DDs, everybody should keep in mind, playing PPU isnt that funny and not very popular!

In contrast to all other classes, PPUs dont have any solo-capabilities.

The only thing i've got as a PPU is a relatively high defense!
Dont make the PPU a char that imidiately has to run when he faces enemies.

Every other class has the possibility to bring down at least one enemy down.

No PPU would complain about lower foreign-effects, but leave the PPU the only thing that compensates the lack of any solo-capability, its high defense.

Dont forget those people playing a PPU on Mars, that cannot switch to a solo-char for hunting, solo-PvP, trading or whatever.

If PPUs running around, rezzing dead DD is the problem, nerf the rezz to hell or throw it out of the game!

Paper Dragon
13-03-06, 01:51
If you play a group-orientated build, you shouldn't be surprised when it's incredibly difficult to solo.

o_O

nostramo
13-03-06, 01:54
If you play a group-orientated build, you shouldn't be surprised when it's incredibly difficult to solo.

o_O

But all classes except PPUs have very high solo-capabilities?! oO

onero S
13-03-06, 01:55
Basically yes.. PE's and Hybrids will be more or less balanced on the same footing, that is In the middle of say a Tank and an APU when looking at the defensive abilities of a Tank vs the Offensive abilities of a APU.

Basic goal is to have Hybrid PSI's be equal to Rifle PE's since both are more well rounded Defense wise and aren't exactly short range fighters. A Hybrids range is more similar to a Rifle user then a Pistol user.


actualy, xbow range> hl range

Paper Dragon
13-03-06, 01:56
But all classes except PPUs have very high solo-capabilities?! oO

No, they don't.

Pure Tradeskillers can't solo the content, because they build stuff and do it incredibly well.

A pure hacker finds it difficult to solo, because they hack stuff and do it incredibly well.

A pure PPU finds it difficult to solo, because they support the other classes and do it incredibly well.

Once again: Build a support-orientated character, and you shouldn't be surprised when you find yourself unable to solo that well.

Dirus
13-03-06, 01:57
actualy, xbow range> hl range

Thats largely due to the issue with aim speed being reliant on range which is being fixed. One thats fixed then Pistols will go back to more proper ranges.

nostramo
13-03-06, 02:09
Pure Tradeskillers can't solo the content, because they build stuff and do it incredibly well.

...can still go hunting for rarepart, drive vhcs, can make insane amounts of money...



A pure hacker finds it difficult to solo, because they hack stuff and do it incredibly well.

...can do PvM on themselves and make lots of money again...

Again, a PPU can do nothing alone. The foreign effects have to be nerfed, no dought!
Remember those players on Mars that want at least something making their character a little bit viable! And that is the PPU's self-defense.

Bugs Gunny
13-03-06, 02:14
I was at an opwar today, ppus still run around the place, damageboosting and parshocking when there's 10 fighters on them.

They've been nerfed a bit, but not to the extent where they are useless like some people claim.

If they where then i'm sure those 9 people at the opfights were complete idiots bringing a ppu no?

Bugs Gunny
13-03-06, 02:19
you think xbow is bad? At least that misses half shots, i use a beam of hell for rifle-like sniping and i hardly miss.

It's a bloody nice warbothunting rifle ueh.. pistol i mean.

EDIT: oops, double post... i'm in trouble now....

Dirus
13-03-06, 02:35
Does that mean, PPUs become more easy to kill?

By defense being hardcapped I don't mean in the same way the defenses are currently capped.

Max defensive abilities will vary depending on a) class, b) profession, c) weapon type. Currently in the rough mock up the only one that has a shot at having more defenses then a PPU is most likely the MC Tank.

npinchot
13-03-06, 03:04
Once again: Build a support-orientated character, and you shouldn't be surprised when you find yourself unable to solo that well.
Sounds like you're saying a support character shouldn't be able to support itself. That kind of does not make sense.

Dribble Joy
13-03-06, 03:06
Defence 'cap' should be a default result of your offencive chioces, Ie taking loads of offencive imps at rhe loss of defence imps. So I'm not sure I like the idea of rigidly denoting defencive power due to cirtain circumstances.

RusSki
13-03-06, 03:16
Yes all the weapons are going to be redone, so are all the implants, and all the armor, and all the drugs ect.

When you say redone, does that mean ur changing the bonuses that items give and the req's on the items aswell?

Dribble Joy
13-03-06, 03:20
We have to assume so, otherwise we can't see how cirtain announced changes could ever be manifested.

Dirus
13-03-06, 04:05
Defence 'cap' should be a default result of your offencive chioces, Ie taking loads of offencive imps at rhe loss of defence imps. So I'm not sure I like the idea of rigidly denoting defencive power due to cirtain circumstances.

DJ, enough of this crap. You know better then most people what I have in the works. Stop trying to find issues to make your self look more balance minded by nitpicking what limit info I post on the forums when you know for a fact no where near all the info has been given.

You know full well I don't mean that just because such and such person is X Class, and Y profession using Z weapon that they're automatically locked to a certain Defense vs Offense rate.

You know full well I'm looking at bringing in implants that work off percentage systems rather then a pure X number of points bonuses. These would give a increase to the skill based off what the player has invested naturally, the more natural the bigger the bonus.

You also know full well that just because there is a "Hardcap" set does not mean that the players themselves won't have the choice of giving up on things like their offensive abilities to push to the higher defensive range they're allowed to reach by that cap. This Hardcap is actually more of a Softcap.

The Defense vs Offense Softcaps are the basis points. There will be freedom to push beyond those, but pushing one will cost the other. Their skill setup and implant choices will be the deciding factor in just how far they can push those basis caps.

Dribble Joy
13-03-06, 04:12
Yes I do know. Thing is, not all people know, and sometimes what you say doesn't allway run parrallel to other things unless it's said in a bit more depth.
Besides this stuff I do is generally to get you (an others) to explain fully what you mean. So I can seem like a cunt sometimes.

On a side (ish) note; I don't like caps, I think they are restrictive and don't allow freedom to choose what you want and don't force imagination or that choice.
Clearly we need some form of cap, otherwise we would see people running about with mendicants being perfectly viable.

Dirus
13-03-06, 04:15
Yes I do know. Thing is, not all people know, and sometimes what you say doesn't allway run parrallel to other things unless it's said in a bit more depth.
Besides this stuff I do is generally to get you (an others) to explain fully what you mean. So I can seem like a cunt sometimes.

On a side (ish) note; I don't like caps, I think they are restrictive and don't allow freedom to choose what you want and don't force imagination or that choice.
Clearly we need some form of cap, otherwise we would see people running about with mendicants being perfectly viable.

Then leave the pushing till the forums are open and theres a proper place ot discuss each subject on it's own. Pushing for a little bit of info in this thread, and more in another just makes it alot more harder for anyone to follow whats going on.

Dribble Joy
13-03-06, 04:24
OK, more cuntery. The thing is that if you announce something, I kinda assume it is now 'official public knowledge', and I kinda assume others will assume it to. So if it isn't fully explained I kinda assume there's a warrant for a more indepth explanation.

Right, I shall (attempt to) leave all this stuff for the time being.

Zephar123
13-03-06, 06:24
first off Dirus let me tip my hat to you for your wonderfull ideas. Everythign sounds great coming and I like what i see so far. Ignore the noobs say a tank cant solo. Ive been soloing everynight since the patch i dont knwo what htere problem is. Rather its not assigning skills properly or improper armor for improper mobs, But apparently I think they just want to whine. I have one person ask me how they can solo warbots as a melee fighter. I answer a logical way then i have tons of peopel whining that does not work on fire mobs. Well the orig question was never based on fire mobs and after the rediculios responces im not even goign to try to teach you how to fight fire mobs. ANyone with a brain this tip will help. TO fight a group of fire mobs without a ppu you need 2 tanks working together and know when to back off.

Synchronize
13-03-06, 09:54
Thanks Dirus to take time to make a so interesting and comprehensible answer

If the change in the heal rules make the TL3 to power full, i understand the correction (I have not test it in between the 154-155 patch).

I will wait with interest the other correction you announce.

Not wanting to flame other but, when you are a high level caractere (and forgetting you level before the patch) with every nice stuff high level have, try to think of new (or relatively new) player or, like me, player who are not good has you are.

A game must be balance for every player, not for the few who master it by earth.

nostramo
13-03-06, 11:26
By defense being hardcapped I don't mean in the same way the defenses are currently capped.

Max defensive abilities will vary depending on a) class, b) profession, c) weapon type. Currently in the rough mock up the only one that has a shot at having more defenses then a PPU is most likely the MC Tank.

I think u really got a plan! Keep goin'!

Dribble Joy
13-03-06, 12:04
EDIT (of above post):

Don't get me wrong, I agree with much/most of Dirus' stuff/plans in principles, it's just that the details are essential.

Bugs Gunny
13-03-06, 12:12
I think it's useless to start commenting on his package of ideas before you've had at least 1 week to test out setups and pvp on a testserver.
His redesign is going to completely change everything as we know it. We'll have a period of months where a few find the good setups and others will be lead to the slaughterbench.... o i can taste it allready, the blooddrenched taste of fresh meat.....

Dribble Joy
13-03-06, 12:21
I think it's useless to start commenting on his package of ideas before you've had at least 1 week to test out setups and pvp on a testserver.
Absolutely, I've said the similar a while ago, but there are fundamental principles that one can/could see causeing serious issues, but like I've said here and the other thread, it's now best to leave it untill the balancing forums. Then I can whine and argue all I like :p.

Strife
13-03-06, 16:17
and all the drugs ect..Removing the drug fuzz? I swear that crap is going to give me a tumor.

Dribble Joy
13-03-06, 16:46
I'd prefer the relog trick removed, if you want drugs, you should have to take the consequences.
What we do need though is the ability to retake drugs to get rid of the flash increased, so that it's only when you finally stop you are utterly fucked for about 15 mins or more.

calim
13-03-06, 17:06
I'd prefer the relog trick removed, if you want drugs, you should have to take the consequences.
What we do need though is the ability to retake drugs to get rid of the flash increased, so that it's only when you finally stop you are utterly fucked for about 15 mins or more.

/agree with that.
"for about 15 mins or more." : and for 15min offline too ?

BlackDove
13-03-06, 18:09
*reads through thread*

*sees changes are coming*

*loves it*

NC has been fucked up for a looooong looooong time.

Any change you make to it is a ++++++++++++++ positive. Doesn't even matter if you break it further. It's already broken enough to be on the limit of unplayability.

Thanks for finally making changes, whatever they are. Great move and by what Dirus says, job too.

Dogface
13-03-06, 18:50
I'd say NC has it's issues, but it's nowhere near on the limit of unplayability..

It's just about how much you're willing to put up with.

Like some people found Neptune unplayable because of it's low populations, but I played there for a long time. So did 'many' (haha) other people..

I couldn't put up with the amount of lag I got on wow, if I found a group of people, went into a city, even attacked a person.. The lag was disgusting. It made my computer crash more times a day than these forums get whined in - hypocritical, isn't it?

But with NC... No lag, I get a fatal probably once every few days (sex 2.1), I crash probably not even once a week (sex 2.1 more), the community are certainly not absolute know it all, whiners-for-no-reason, elitist, self-reightous stuck up jackasses (of course theres always one or two :p ). The GMs are so much more friendly on this game, they actually act like people instead of robots sent from above to moderate, ban and neglect their customers - and I don't care what some of you say about that opinion :angel:

And some people love wow :rolleyes:

Preferece decides what people are willing to stand.. I don't even remember why I posted this :p

RogerRamjet
13-03-06, 19:28
yeh, the WoW servers are shitty. I remember whining in Dark Shire coz it was laggy as fuck. Everyone told me to shut up, i was a noob etc. Then i said "ffs, ive played Neocron, its more stable than this" :p

They listened to me after that.

BlackDove
13-03-06, 20:21
I don't really see why you are comparing WoW to NC. WoW is a shitty game from as far as I can see it, an abomination very close to CounterStrike. Large masses of people manage to ruin it just because they're there, by overloading servers, or the fact that most of them are retarded (as people usually are).

And let's be frank - WoW is using its potential to the fullest. It's "as good as it gets" right now.

Not good enough for me to be honest.

NC on the other hand is full on potential, but low on delivery. The PvP system, core of the game, has been abominable for years now.

Realizing, or trying to realize that potential is really where its at.

If NC went to its "as good as it can get" status, it would overshadow WoW by a long shot in terms of quality.

The fact that WoW has a lot of people playing it, doesn't mean it is a game of quality. It just means even the retarded can figure out its functions.

Much like CounterStrike.

I'm happy to see progress in this department with NC. It's trying to realise the potential. First step was admitting fault. Now it's time to make it better. After years of waiting, there's light at the end of the tunnel. Hope it's enough to make it a great game.

giga191
17-03-06, 22:10
Anyone tested if they did a sneak fix for ak47 ammo?