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Zheo
09-03-06, 09:22
Ok i'm going to do it, im going to level a monk... i know it's horrid i've joined the club! So here's my idea for a mostly APU but with some basic buffs to help:

INTELLIGENCE

Barter: 130 (+0)
PSI Use: 120 (+55)
Implant: 115 (+35)

CONSTITUTION

Agility: 50 (+6)
Health: 60 (+19)
Fire: 40 (+15)
Energy: 40 (+15)
Xray: 78 (+23)
Poison: 45 (+10)

PSI

PPU: 64 (-30)
APU: 150 (+37)
MST: 87 (+10)
PPW: 70 (+20)

RogerRamjet
09-03-06, 10:12
Your spell freq will be pretty shitty with that low PSU, id suggest pure.

netster
09-03-06, 10:31
aye, i say that too ..... go pure psu or poking 115 with glove+NS+spy1 buffage if u need any tradeskill (thats like 80base poking + 145base psu(145+55(from imps)=201psu (without NS))

Bugs Gunny
09-03-06, 10:52
That hybrid is going to be so dead in about 10 seconds.

netster
09-03-06, 11:05
That hybrid is going to be so dead in about 10 seconds.
oh... bugs... got a bad headache or why so "slow" ;) no, u're faster than that, i know that =)

Bugs Gunny
09-03-06, 11:14
Did i forget to mention i was going to use my fists? :D

netster
09-03-06, 11:16
Did i forget to mention i was going to use my fists? :D
hrhr... TL10 sword? =)

Bugs Gunny
09-03-06, 11:35
what does that take to cap anyway?
Cuz for filming reasons i'm gonna have to lom my pe to some melee and i might as well try to cap that thing then to kill some noobs.

netster
09-03-06, 13:06
hmmm 45melee, when i're remembering correct

but anyhow Zheo .... your HP is far to low. since its a monk, dont spec for energy resist(your armor will do), spec for a POR-belt and try the rest....

onero S
09-03-06, 14:24
hmmm 45melee, when i're remembering correct

but anyhow Zheo .... your HP is far to low. since its a monk, dont spec for energy resist(your armor will do), spec for a POR-belt and try the rest....


no, spec for a fire resist belt, put in 0 energy and 10 fire resist, try the rest.....


as for your int, lol.


Also your psi setup is a bit random I suggest you take another look at it.


Edit: Bottem line is this setup is one of the worst I have ever seen. Also, thats not a semi hybrid, thats a hybrid, just a really really awful one.

Zheo
09-03-06, 23:23
no, spec for a fire resist belt, put in 0 energy and 10 fire resist, try the rest.....


as for your int, lol.


Also your psi setup is a bit random I suggest you take another look at it.


Edit: Bottem line is this setup is one of the worst I have ever seen. Also, thats not a semi hybrid, thats a hybrid, just a really really awful one.

Did i mention i've never played a monk before? And it's semi cos it's a basically an apu with some lowbie buffs, I had no idea they needed so much psi use since weapons dont really need a great deal of wpl atm well hc doesnt. as for con, same again i've never had a monk so i dont know what their con set up needs to be hence the reason for this post. though I was concidering not making a monk now since i'll have to learn to fight one way for him and another for my tank.

RogerRamjet
10-03-06, 00:13
Did i mention i've never played a monk before? And it's semi cos it's a basically an apu with some lowbie buffs, I had no idea they needed so much psi use since weapons dont really need a great deal of wpl atm well hc doesnt. as for con, same again i've never had a monk so i dont know what their con set up needs to be hence the reason for this post. though I was concidering not making a monk now since i'll have to learn to fight one way for him and another for my tank.

You could have the most point efficient setup ingame, and someone here would say its shit, so dont worry.

Since youre not pure APU, you need as much PSU as possible, on a capped int hybrid you can get around 95 or so on a HL (cant remember exact number).

ZoVoS
10-03-06, 01:27
dump the barter... totaly no point in having it... get sumbody else u know to buy ur shit

onero S
10-03-06, 02:07
Did i mention i've never played a monk before? And it's semi cos it's a basically an apu with some lowbie buffs, I had no idea they needed so much psi use since weapons dont really need a great deal of wpl atm well hc doesnt. as for con, same again i've never had a monk so i dont know what their con set up needs to be hence the reason for this post. though I was concidering not making a monk now since i'll have to learn to fight one way for him and another for my tank.



um, I may have flamed your setup but I still helped you. Honistly though, if you look at the numbers on monk armor, you should have been able to tell your con setup was shit, I frogive you about the int mess, but seriously your con was just stupid, anyone who knows nc resists and spent 5 minuts looking at monk armor would have known that.

mdares
10-03-06, 08:06
You could have the most point efficient setup ingame, and someone here would say its shit, so dont worry.

Since youre not pure APU, you need as much PSU as possible, on a capped int hybrid you can get around 95 or so on a HL (cant remember exact number).

i have 99 on freq on mine with 96 int; so i'd say like 100 or 101 with capped int and all points in psu.

onero S
10-03-06, 14:21
i have 99 on freq on mine with 96 int; so i'd say like 100 or 101 with capped int and all points in psu.


well depends on setup, with his 150 in apu, yea you could get that, but thats not really a reccomended setup.

RogerRamjet
10-03-06, 17:22
Depends which imp setup too. I could probably get close to capped Freq, but i use a moveon aswell, which is much for helpful.

SorkZmok
10-03-06, 17:32
Depends which imp setup too. I could probably get close to capped Freq, but i use a moveon aswell, which is much for helpful.
DS/psicore/attack3/moveon setup with 85ish base int already gets you above 95 freq on an artifact HL. With 145 or so apu.

RogerRamjet
10-03-06, 19:20
DS/psicore/attack3/moveon setup with 85ish base int already gets you above 95 freq on an artifact HL. With 145 or so apu.

Im gonna need to check my setup it seems.

onero S
11-03-06, 19:24
DS/psicore/attack3/moveon setup with 85ish base int already gets you above 95 freq on an artifact HL. With 145 or so apu.


145 is a waste imo, you waste dmg on hl doing that and you wast dmg on your shelter doing that.

RogerRamjet
11-03-06, 19:39
145 is a waste imo, you waste dmg on hl doing that and you wast dmg on your shelter doing that.

Whats a better number?

onero S
11-03-06, 19:53
141, then put the rest in ppw, you give up a little freq, but gain dmg on both hl and shelter

Edit: Plus if you care about freq that much just drug and cap freq on your hl anyway.

RogerRamjet
11-03-06, 19:58
141, then put the rest in ppw, you give up a little freq, but gain dmg on both hl and shelter

Edit: Plus if you care about freq that much just drug and cap freq on your hl anyway.

Hmm yeh, was thinking PPW could help. I might try it. Im pure PSU anyway so i might be able to get away with it.

onero S
11-03-06, 20:07
Hmm yeh, was thinking PPW could help. I might try it. Im pure PSU anyway so i might be able to get away with it.

I have done setups both ways, and I have found my personal choice to be 75 ppu, 141 apu, 83 mst, and the rest in ppw.

mdares
11-03-06, 22:44
I have done setups both ways, and I have found my personal choice to be 75 ppu, 141 apu, 83 mst, and the rest in ppw.

meh i tried that; but i liked having 450 pool =) but to a point ofcourse. plus i dunt like to use PA cuz slow runspd ftl =(

and not to mention; if u have mroe than 75 base ppw, point economy wise, its not as effective as going directly into apu if u wanna have leet HL dmg (assuming ur apu point base is 100+).

which reminds me: wut %dmg and freq the rest of u apu hybs get on arti HL? and also 120 dmg shelt?

onero S
11-03-06, 23:22
meh i tried that; but i liked having 450 pool =) but to a point ofcourse. plus i dunt like to use PA cuz slow runspd ftl =(

and not to mention; if u have mroe than 75 base ppw, point economy wise, its not as effective as going directly into apu if u wanna have leet HL dmg (assuming ur apu point base is 100+).

which reminds me: wut %dmg and freq the rest of u apu hybs get on arti HL? and also 120 dmg shelt?


Not true, from 75 to 100 its 3 points per 1. Asume you have 15 points.

5x40=200
in apu that would be

3x60=180

I had thought those were the numbers, If am am off a little then you may be right about apu being more effective, still no hyb has above 75 base ppw and its worth it specing heavy ppw on a pure apu for pool anyway.


Edit: I can't remember if it was 60/40 or 35/65, ah well.

mdares
11-03-06, 23:39
Not true, from 75 to 100 its 3 points per 1. Asume you have 15 points.

5x40=200
in apu that would be

3x60=180

I had thought those were the numbers, If am am off a little then you may be right about apu being more effective, still no hyb has above 75 base ppw and its worth it specing heavy ppw on a pure apu for pool anyway.


Edit: I can't remember if it was 60/40 or 35/65, ah well.

i dunt get the point of the 5x40=200 and 3x60 = 180 thing...
cuz each apu u point u stick in, gives u 2.5% dmg to HL; each ppw point gives u 1.3% dmg (yes this has been tested ever since nc1 and has been true with minor discrepencies arising from the way the game rounds up/down on certain %). so in essence its half. so above 75, 3 poitns per ppw point, then u need 6 points to get the same dmg increase as 1 apu point (5 skill points) would.

oh and apu/ppw dmgwise is like 60/30 i think from a post made by teh devs. with the extra 10% being the amazing fudge factor.

Zheo
12-03-06, 00:08
160 apu, :) not 150, Also as for my con setup, I seem to remember being told that resists are a mix of skill and armour, thus i though having 40 energy would be needed for the skill side. I know muchs have a shed load of energy resist and fire resist, in armour. And moveon instead of PPR? wouldnt PPR be more stat effective? giving some xray, energy, fire and force resist? instead of just health, force and tran? the +3 str and con shouldnt make that much difference.

onero S
12-03-06, 00:39
i dunt get the point of the 5x40=200 and 3x60 = 180 thing...
cuz each apu u point u stick in, gives u 2.5% dmg to HL; each ppw point gives u 1.3% dmg (yes this has been tested ever since nc1 and has been true with minor discrepencies arising from the way the game rounds up/down on certain %). so in essence its half. so above 75, 3 poitns per ppw point, then u need 6 points to get the same dmg increase as 1 apu point (5 skill points) would.

oh and apu/ppw dmgwise is like 60/30 i think from a post made by teh devs. with the extra 10% being the amazing fudge factor.


so it is 65/35 after all, anyway, the thing I was doing was by the %s kk uses when they tell us things, for ppw/apu apu is 65% of dmg and ppw is 35%, hence the numbers I got in my math didn't show anything by themselvs, but when you compare them you can see the real difference with the ammount of points per 1 taken into account. After 75 you are right, apu is very very slightly more effective, but as I said, no hyb has 75 base ppw.

onero S
12-03-06, 00:41
160 apu, :) not 150, Also as for my con setup, I seem to remember being told that resists are a mix of skill and armour, thus i though having 40 energy would be needed for the skill side. I know muchs have a shed load of energy resist and fire resist, in armour. And moveon instead of PPR? wouldnt PPR be more stat effective? giving some xray, energy, fire and force resist? instead of just health, force and tran? the +3 str and con shouldnt make that much difference.

Edit double post sry

A moveon lets you use a filter heart 2 and an anti gama foot, so it is more effective stat wise, you don't need any energy, 137 in armor is plenty, as for fire I usualy only put 10 in con, this means that most of your con points go to x ray resist, which is why the filter heart 2 and the anti gama foot make a moveon more stat effective.

mdares
15-03-06, 23:27
so it is 65/35 after all, anyway, the thing I was doing was by the %s kk uses when they tell us things, for ppw/apu apu is 65% of dmg and ppw is 35%, hence the numbers I got in my math didn't show anything by themselvs, but when you compare them you can see the real difference with the ammount of points per 1 taken into account. After 75 you are right, apu is very very slightly more effective, but as I said, no hyb has 75 base ppw.

heh actually i do have 75 base ppw; the after imps/armor values for stats on my monk is 143 apu, 83 mst, 61 ppu, 110 ppw.

i did try sticking the 2 apu into ppu but the dmg difference was 6% less on HL for 17% more on shelt (which translates to less than a 0.1% increase in resistance). plus i'd also lose 1 cast/min on hl if i moved out teh apu points =p

and besides with a moveon setup (i had one previously) i'd lose out on 3% of dmg all around and be 7 casts/min lower on HL >_<

but i guess the overall argument between no moveon or moveon is the same as saying whether u want to do mroe dmg and move faster for poorer resists, or less dmg move slower but have better resists.

RogerRamjet
16-03-06, 01:38
meh i tried that; but i liked having 450 pool =) but to a point ofcourse. plus i dunt like to use PA cuz slow runspd ftl =(

and not to mention; if u have mroe than 75 base ppw, point economy wise, its not as effective as going directly into apu if u wanna have leet HL dmg (assuming ur apu point base is 100+).

which reminds me: wut %dmg and freq the rest of u apu hybs get on arti HL? and also 120 dmg shelt?

So you had almost capped mana pool on a hybrid.

How???

Pantho
16-03-06, 02:33
my Hyb setup has 448psi pool, :p


Caped (Freq - only 600% dmg) psi attack 2, but only 121 ppu,

5 slot spells ftw,

mdares
16-03-06, 03:34
my Hyb setup has 448psi pool, :p


Caped (Freq - only 600% dmg) psi attack 2, but only 121 ppu,

5 slot spells ftw,

lol pantho we're talkin apu hybs (use HL as a minimum) not blessed hybs (which r more or less a no brainer to setup) =p
/slap

as for how, use proper imps =p

472% on HL dmg, 99/min (should be 100 to 101/min once i cap int in 4 lvls or so) 437 pool currrently.

onero S
16-03-06, 04:08
lol pantho we're talkin apu hybs (use HL as a minimum) not blessed hybs (which r more or less a no brainer to setup) =p
/slap

as for how, use proper imps =p

472% on HL dmg, 99/min (should be 100 to 101/min once i cap int in 4 lvls or so) 437 pool currrently.

I know how he did it...exp psi controller 3? would give my hyb a 101 psi pool, tweak other values and yea I can see how you could get that, still is the drop in xray/poison resists, the loss of movespeed and force, and no extra transport worth it?

Its not for me, though partly because I hate drugs, I suppose if you were willing to take a 3 drug setup, still use filter heart 2 and antigama foot, and drug for the force resist, it could work, but eh, I do just fine with my no drug setup.

Edit: you go further don't you

You use Pa 2 and exp psi controllers 2 and 3, that should (theorteticly) let you buff with hazz 1 with pa off, and s/d/db with pa on. In adittion it lets you have better s/d stats and hl dmg


You give up TONS of movespeed, force, and poison however, I would never do this setup. In addition in op wars a pa setup is gimpt because you can't pu on pa and get a psi buff 3 to get more than 600% on hl the way a no pa hyb can.


Anyway this is part speculation, and given that I got your setup right, the rest is purely opinion. More than 1 hyb setup can be good, also depending on if you want to op war with that char or use drugs.

mdares
16-03-06, 04:20
I know how he did it...exp psi controller 3? would give my hyb a 101 psi pool, tweak other values and yea I can see how you could get that, still is the drop in xray/poison resists, the loss of movespeed and force, and no extra transport worth it?

Its not for me, though partly because I hate drugs, I suppose if you were willing to take a 3 drug setup, still use filter heart 2 and antigama foot, and drug for the force resist, it could work, but eh, I do just fine with my no drug setup.

Edit: you go further don't you

You use Pa 2 and exp psi controllers 2 and 3, that should (theorteticly) let you buff with hazz 1 with pa off, and s/d/db with pa on. In adittion it lets you have better s/d stats and hl dmg


You give up TONS of movespeed, force, and poison however, I would never do this setup. In addition in op wars a pa setup is gimpt because you can't pu on pa and get a psi buff 3 to get more than 600% on hl the way a no pa hyb can.


Anyway this is part speculation, and given that I got your setup right, the rest is purely opinion. More than 1 hyb setup can be good, also depending on if you want to op war with that char or use drugs.

rofl im sorry but ur totally wrong =p

let me give u the rest of my stats for good measure; i have 78% frc/77% prc/83% energy/81% fir/61% xray/31% por, 400 hp, 80 runspd (according to skiller), and i have 57 max load (carrying 100+ boosters ftw >_<). i dunt use drugs and i DUNT buff with haz1; basic 2 ftw =). not telling anythign else tho =p

im guessing the setup u checked out had around 70 to 72 runspd =)

altho i had a another setup with a moveon that gave me less dmg and stuff but got me like 80+% in frc and prc, and 70% xray with 45% por; still 400 hp; and 74.5 runspd with still 60 max load. (or 78% xray and 47% por if i were to buff with haz1 with all else in the moveon setup same)

personally im a speed whore so meh.

onero S
16-03-06, 04:47
Oh, I know your setup now I think, no pa, no drugs, judging by the low force at least 1 exp controller, plus prolly a psi atack chip 3. Less ppu gets you more ppw and a little more apu.


However, with the numbers you gave me this is not worth it at all, the s/d dmg difference is minimal, and although you get around 40 more % on hl than my setup.


My stats are as follows

Reists:
Force: 86.1
Pirce: 84.7
Fire: 81
Energy: 82.2
Xray: 81
Poison: 26

395 body hp,

85.1 movement speed


Gets 96/min 430% on hl

With psi 3/pa 3 gets 610% capt freq on hl

355 ish psi pool

anyway, assuming I'm not wrong again on your setup (no gaurenties) I much prefer mine.

Even if I am wrong however, just going by the numbers you gave, is 40% on hl really worth it to you?, remember thats 40 out of 650 ish percent, thats only like 6 or 7% dmg difference in exchange for a small amount of movement speed and a lot of resists.

mdares
16-03-06, 05:10
Oh, I know your setup now I think, no pa, no drugs, judging by the low force at least 1 exp controller, plus prolly a psi atack chip 3. Less ppu gets you more ppw and a little more apu.


However, with the numbers you gave me this is not worth it at all, the s/d dmg difference is minimal, and although you get around 40 more % on hl than my setup.


My stats are as follows

Reists:
Force: 86.1
Pirce: 84.7
Fire: 81
Energy: 82.2
Xray: 81
Poison: 26

395 body hp,

85.1 movement speed


Gets 96/min 430% on hl

With psi 3/pa 3 gets 610% capt freq on hl

355 ish psi pool

anyway, assuming I'm not wrong again on your setup (no gaurenties) I much prefer mine.

Even if I am wrong however, just going by the numbers you gave, is 40% on hl really worth it to you?, remember thats 40 out of 650 ish percent, thats only like 6 or 7% dmg difference in exchange for a small amount of movement speed and a lot of resists.

well for one thing ur using blessed def which im not; im not cuz i dunt see the piont between a noncapped blessed def (which is NOT the actual resist % shown in skiller; skiller assumes u CAP ur buffs) and a capped lowbie def. against a capped explosive termi i take only 10 dmg less at point blank; which as termi users know, hit for DOUBLE than at range (i.e. hits u 4 x with 1 shot up close rather than 2 x, as it SHOULD be) so only difference of 5 dmg at standard pvp range.

second 355ish pool is 80 pool less; which is more than 3 shots of HL with natural regen, which is around 200-300 dmg output for me. that coupled with a lesser need to keep popping boosters, and 40% mroe dmg and 3 more shots per min, for me, is a pretty big difference.

third 26% por is all the resist u have; i'd hate to see wut happens when u run into apu/ppu teams who use tox; or por modded dev users that catch u unaware. where u hit up xray at the expense of poison (which i did before but lommed it down again cuz peopel were getting smart >_<) i get a more balanced approach cuz who knows wut u run up against when raiding crp or at opfights. not to mention that PoB does prc + por and apparently PoB users are all teh craze now =\ (just run out to MB and see; have the people there use either PoB or dev...) yes i only have 30% por but u'd be amazed at the difference it can be. i can stand there, let a PE db me, and swing away at me with a PoB and i can still kill him before he gets me below 75% without using a db myself. (and did i mention? he kepted himself healed; but then again he probably just had really shitty con =p)

oh and ur probably buffing up with spy1 as well; which i dunt do cuz it takes anotehr slot on my qb that can be used for something like antishelt (u have antigamma foot + spy1 + mc1 going to get u 85 runspd) =p (and i bet u dunt drive either; which i also do cuz its fun =d)

another thing that i just remembered; go play a tank with 90 runspd; then play a monk with 85; then play a PE with 80, then lastly a spy with 75 runspd. the difrerence between 80 and 90 are almost negligible; whereas 75 and 80 is a very large gap. the reason for this discrepency is due to lag issues, etc. which varies according to player. but i've found that for me, and for several other people i know, we decided that 80 runspeed is the right "magic number" for our standard latency (we're all on the west coast of the US)

in summa i apply the same question that u put forth to me back at u; is it really worth that much to have more prc/frc at the expense of ur overall dmg output and all that xray without much por. (leaving u one glarring weakness in an otherwise good setup)

i guess ur setup would be fine if u were always 1v1 with poeple (more emphasis on resists rather than dmg). but in my experience that rarely happens; and its much mroe important for me to take as many of them out as i can before they do the same to me.

onero S
16-03-06, 05:45
well for one thing ur using blessed def which im not; im not cuz i dunt see the piont between a noncapped blessed def (which is NOT the actual resist % shown in skiller; skiller assumes u CAP ur buffs) and a capped lowbie def. against a capped explosive termi i take only 10 dmg less at point blank; which as termi users know, hit for DOUBLE than at range (i.e. hits u 4 x with 1 shot up close rather than 2 x, as it SHOULD be) so only difference of 5 dmg at standard pvp range.

second 355ish pool is 80 pool less; which is more than 3 shots of HL with natural regen, which is around 200-300 dmg output for me. that coupled with a lesser need to keep popping boosters, and 40% mroe dmg and 3 more shots per min, for me, is a pretty big difference.

third 26% por is all the resist u have; i'd hate to see wut happens when u run into apu/ppu teams who use tox; or por modded dev users that catch u unaware. where u hit up xray at the expense of poison (which i did before but lommed it down again cuz peopel were getting smart >_<) i get a more balanced approach cuz who knows wut u run up against when raiding crp or at opfights. not to mention that PoB does prc + por and apparently PoB users are all teh craze now =\ (just run out to MB and see; have the people there use either PoB or dev...) yes i only have 30% por but u'd be amazed at the difference it can be. i can stand there, let a PE db me, and swing away at me with a PoB and i can still kill him before he gets me below 75% without using a db myself. (and did i mention? he kepted himself healed; but then again he probably just had really shitty con =p)

oh and ur probably buffing up with spy1 as well; which i dunt do cuz it takes anotehr slot on my qb that can be used for something like antishelt (u have antigamma foot + spy1 + mc1 going to get u 85 runspd) =p (and i bet u dunt drive either; which i also do cuz its fun =d)

in summa i apply the same question that u put forth to me back at u; is it really worth that much to have more prc/frc at the expense of ur overall dmg output and all that xray without much por. (leaving u one glarring weakness in an otherwise good setup)

i guess ur setup would be fine if u were always 1v1 with poeple (more emphasis on resists rather than dmg). but in my experience that rarely happens; and its much mroe important for me to take as many of them out as i can before they do the same to me.

actualy, first of all that much runspeed is not equil to the agil spy 1 gives you, not even close.

Second of all, in pvp you don't get max shits/min on hl anyway so that little bit off freq cap won't matter.

Third, you're wrong about deflector, I get low 400% out of 576 on blessed d, a capt tl 3 deflector is not better than that.


Plus as far as resists go, I do fine against melee, the trick is not to let them hit you, as for apu/ppu teams, if you run into one and you are solo you are prolly dead anyway, in a group, again the trick is to keep moving. I do die now and then and its NEVER been to a poison based weapon. Plus alway have a heavy POR belt in your inventory ready to switch over.


As for x ray, well 1 word, x-bow. I find that having balanced x ray resist helps a lot.

And, you have 61% x ray, I have 81, that means that you take TWICE the x ray dmg I do (yes I know neoskiller is not perfect, but its not that far off). That is a lot.

As far as buffs go, if a fight lasts more than 10 minuts with no zone opertunities (ie an op fight) our ppus are cordinated enouph that I have lvl 3 primes anyway.


The bottem line is, I don't like your defences, its not worth it imo, you talk of setting yourself up for op fights with your arguments about QB space and needing max psi pool, yet you don't seem to realize than in an op I cap hl freq and get more than 600% dmg on it. On top of that, x ray still eats you for dinner and in a world where more and more x bows are showing up, thats bad.

onero S
16-03-06, 05:47
well for one thing ur using blessed def which im not; im not cuz i dunt see the piont between a noncapped blessed def (which is NOT the actual resist % shown in skiller; skiller assumes u CAP ur buffs) and a capped lowbie def. against a capped explosive termi i take only 10 dmg less at point blank; which as termi users know, hit for DOUBLE than at range (i.e. hits u 4 x with 1 shot up close rather than 2 x, as it SHOULD be) so only difference of 5 dmg at standard pvp range.

second 355ish pool is 80 pool less; which is more than 3 shots of HL with natural regen, which is around 200-300 dmg output for me. that coupled with a lesser need to keep popping boosters, and 40% mroe dmg and 3 more shots per min, for me, is a pretty big difference.

third 26% por is all the resist u have; i'd hate to see wut happens when u run into apu/ppu teams who use tox; or por modded dev users that catch u unaware. where u hit up xray at the expense of poison (which i did before but lommed it down again cuz peopel were getting smart >_<) i get a more balanced approach cuz who knows wut u run up against when raiding crp or at opfights. not to mention that PoB does prc + por and apparently PoB users are all teh craze now =\ (just run out to MB and see; have the people there use either PoB or dev...) yes i only have 30% por but u'd be amazed at the difference it can be. i can stand there, let a PE db me, and swing away at me with a PoB and i can still kill him before he gets me below 75% without using a db myself. (and did i mention? he kepted himself healed; but then again he probably just had really shitty con =p)

oh and ur probably buffing up with spy1 as well; which i dunt do cuz it takes anotehr slot on my qb that can be used for something like antishelt (u have antigamma foot + spy1 + mc1 going to get u 85 runspd) =p (and i bet u dunt drive either; which i also do cuz its fun =d)

in summa i apply the same question that u put forth to me back at u; is it really worth that much to have more prc/frc at the expense of ur overall dmg output and all that xray without much por. (leaving u one glarring weakness in an otherwise good setup)

i guess ur setup would be fine if u were always 1v1 with poeple (more emphasis on resists rather than dmg). but in my experience that rarely happens; and its much mroe important for me to take as many of them out as i can before they do the same to me.

actualy, first of all that much runspeed is not equil to the agil spy 1 gives you, not even close.

Second of all, in pvp you don't get max shits/min on hl anyway so that little bit off freq cap won't matter.

Third, you're wrong about deflector, I get low 400% out of 576 on blessed d, a capt tl 3 deflector is not better than that.


Plus as far as resists go, I do fine against melee, the trick is not to let them hit you, as for apu/ppu teams, if you run into one and you are solo you are prolly dead anyway, in a group, again the trick is to keep moving. I do die now and then and its NEVER been to a poison based weapon. Plus alway have a heavy POR belt in your inventory ready to switch over.


As for x ray, well 1 word, x-bow. I find that having balanced x ray resist helps a lot.

And, you have 61% x ray, I have 81, that means that you take TWICE the x ray dmg I do (yes I know neoskiller is not perfect, but its not that far off). That is a lot.

As far as buffs go, if a fight lasts more than 10 minuts with no zone opertunities (ie an op fight) our ppus are cordinated enouph that I have lvl 3 primes anyway.


The bottem line is, I don't like your defences, its not worth it imo, you talk of setting yourself up for op fights with your arguments about QB space and needing max psi pool, yet you don't seem to realize than in an op I cap hl freq and get more than 600% dmg on it. On top of that, x ray still eats you for dinner and in a world where more and more x bows are showing up, thats bad.

Edit: 26% poison means that I take 74% poison dmg
30% poison means you take 70% poison dmg. Thats a very small increase, (6% or so).

Compare that with the 100% increase in x ray defence I have. That coupled with faster movespeed and better force ( I don't beleave that crap about tl 3 deflector for 1 second). Means that I will take signifigantly less dmg than you under real world pvp situations. Seriously, in an op fight, other than somone pulling off a rezz, when was the last time a tank kept a lock on you with a dev. Even 1v1 tanks can't keep a dev on me, in fact its one of the least effective weapons against a hyb I have found.

mdares
16-03-06, 06:06
The bottem line is, I don't like your defences, its not worth it imo, you talk of setting yourself up for op fights with your arguments about QB space and needing max psi pool, yet you don't seem to realize than in an op I cap hl freq and get more than 600% dmg on it. On top of that, x ray still eats you for dinner and in a world where more and more x bows are showing up, thats bad.

ok uh first u said u get 600% on HL and cap freq with PA3 and psi3; WHICH I ALSO DO (more so actualy but wutever) if i used PA3 like u did. so ur point is moot.

second, perhaps i should post ur setup? cuz right here i see antigamma foot + mc1 boost + spy1, with some stuff in con and dex, gets u 85.1. so yeah ur using spy 1 which was ALL i was trying to say.

then theres blessed deflector. u do know that on a CAPPED blessed deflector compaired with a capped lowbie deflector, the actualy resist percentage increase is 50% more of the lower TL one. that is, if the normal deflector gives +10% then blessed is +15%. now capped lowbie gives u 10%; yay me. uncapped blessd deflector with ur 400% dmg out of 576% total is (math: (400/576)*15 = 10.42%) only 11% more resistance; which is only 1% more than a normal deflector.

and i was gonna edit previous post but forgot; u also r buffing with haz1 i believe. so ur totally gimpping ur pool and stuff just for 8% mroe xray, 3% more por, and 1% more frc/prc.

i take double ur XRAY dmg, not overall. And yes whille u say theres lots of more "ion" weaps out there, currently for ion pistols and rifles and cannons, theres (afaik) no ammos especially for those yet. only the xbow. not to mention, im fairly certain that the xbow isnt 100% xray dmg.

plus in opfights theres STILL few to no PEs or Spies who use xbow (mostly spies with kamis >_<, which are actually a lot worse imo). the most u get are a few melee tanks with PoB (por+prc) and dev tanks (por+fir). so again the xray aspect is situational.

in retrospect however, the only time when ur xray heavy setup would be proper is when fighting against rhinos... yeah those things hurt... (and i hear vehicles r getting buffed so i might have to tweak a bit...)

onero S
16-03-06, 06:23
ok uh first u said u get 600% on HL and cap freq with PA3 and psi3; WHICH I ALSO DO (more so actualy but wutever) if i used PA3 like u did. so ur point is moot.

second, perhaps i should post ur setup? cuz right here i see antigamma foot + mc1 boost + spy1, with some stuff in con and dex, gets u 85.1. so yeah ur using spy 1 which was ALL i was trying to say.

then theres blessed deflector. u do know that on a CAPPED blessed deflector compaired with a capped lowbie deflector, the actualy resist percentage increase is 50% more of the lower TL one. that is, if the normal deflector gives +10% then blessed is +15%. now capped lowbie gives u 10%; yay me. uncapped blessd deflector with ur 400% dmg out of 576% total is (math: (400/576)*15 = 10.42%) only 11% more resistance; which is only 1% more than a normal deflector.

and i was gonna edit previous post but forgot; u also r buffing with haz1 i believe. so ur totally gimpping ur pool and stuff just for 8% mroe xray, 3% more por, and 1% more frc/prc.

i take double ur XRAY dmg, not overall. And yes whille u say theres lots of more "ion" weaps out there, currently for ion pistols and rifles and cannons, theres (afaik) no ammos especially for those yet. only the xbow. not to mention, im fairly certain that the xbow isnt 100% xray dmg.

plus in opfights theres STILL few to no PEs or Spies who use xbow (mostly spies with kamis >_<, which are actually a lot worse imo). the most u get are a few melee tanks with PoB (por+prc) and dev tanks (por+fir). so again the xray aspect is situational.

in retrospect however, the only time when ur xray heavy setup would be proper is when fighting against rhinos... yeah those things hurt... (and i hear vehicles r getting buffed so i might have to tweak a bit...)


Your %s are misleading, noone has 0%, in fact a ppu only has 10 more % resists than an apu hyb, but since you are used to seeing all weapons being effected by resists, it looks like much more if a differance. In other words, my 1% force, is more like 4%, and my 8% xray is a huge amount. Plus the bonus in hl dmg is aplied before resists, not after, in other words, adding 40% out of 648 hl dmg, which is like 7% dmg increase, is only a 7% increase, where as 8% more x ray is a huge amount since you see resists only on the upper spectrum. (In other words with no resists hl would do like 500 dmg, so 8% more energy resist would take 8% of 500, not off the 70 it would do to a player, hence in effect giving more than an 8% bonus.

So your dmg is not noticibly higher, but my defence is.

mdares
16-03-06, 06:41
Your %s are misleading, noone has 0%, in fact a ppu only has 10 more % resists than an apu hyb, but since you are used to seeing all weapons being effected by resists, it looks like much more if a differance. In other words, my 1% force, is more like 4%, and my 8% xray is a huge amount. Plus the bonus in hl dmg is aplied before resists, not after, in other words, adding 40% out of 648 hl dmg, which is like 7% dmg increase, is only a 7% increase, where as 8% more x ray is a huge amount since you see resists only on the upper spectrum. (In other words with no resists hl would do like 500 dmg, so 8% more energy resist would take 8% of 500, not off the 70 it would do to a player, hence in effect giving more than an 8% bonus.

So your dmg is not noticibly higher, but my defence is.

uh maybe ur confused but UNBUFFED players have 0%... that is a 0% BONUS (which is wut im refering to). the bonus is appleid through shelt/def. and it IS a flat % increase. 1% more resistance given through a deflector is just that. 1% more.

btw i dunt see where u get the "1% force, is more like 4%" thing. 1% is 1% pure and simple; there is no "like". just because its more obvious in weapons with higher dmg values dont mean that the 1% difference in resists also scale up. (that is, its always gonna be a 1% difference; just the actual flat values may change; i.e. 1% of 10 is less than 1% of 100; but 1% on the 100 dmg weapon is more obvious; but no matter wut they are BOTH 1% and that will never change)... I sense some hand waving going on in ur reasoning =p

then to ur example. if say someone does do 500 dmg to someone with 0 resists. then 8% would be a 40 dmg negation or essentially 460 dmg taken. and when we scale down to plausible values, i take 8 more dmg (on 100 dmg weapon). (cuz only thing that hits like 500 dmg is capped HL, which is energy and that's not the point here cuz frankly it is important to be realistic too and 500 dmg prc weapons dunt exist other than kamis which we're also not talking about cuz its not repeatable/consistant in experimentation).

i think the main area of confusion when u read my numbers is that u might not be realizing that im not rescalling them to anyone's original resists. i say 10% as in just that. im not rescalling them to 10/70 -> 14.3% (which i see u are doing the entire time).

onero S
16-03-06, 07:10
no see I don't think you understand.

Players don't take 100% of weapon dmg. They take between 40-10% ish on the major catagories. In other words, that ppu that takes 20 capt hl dmg, lets assume he has 90% reduction with his s/d. Now that means that hl would be doing 200 dmg with no resists, 400 with no steel skin.

Now assume that same hl hits a tank with 75% reduction, there is "only" a 15% reduction differance between the tank and the ppu. But the tanks takes 45 dmg, thats more than twice the amount of dmg. See why syaing "only" 8% is misleading?

Now lets take weapon dmg. I am going to use round numbers to make it easy. Assume your weapon caps at 1000%, 1 player gets 500% on it, another gets 600% on it.

now the 1000 weapon does 50 dmg to a tank with 75% ish resists.

Player 1 gets 500% on it=25 dmg
player 2 gets 600% on it-30 dmg

thats only a diffeance of about 7%, this example works in your favor rounding wise, assume I am player 1 and you are player 2.

Now, Assume I have 3% more of a resist than you (keep in mind I have 8% more xray). If a weapon would hit a tank with 75% resists for 50, it would hit me for 6 less dmg, or a differance of 10%.

Now see the differance in effective ness of offence vs defence? Even if you have 1/6th more offensive power than me, all I need is 1/33th more defence and I will still have an advantadge.

Now with my actual 8% xray bonus I take WAY WAY WAY less xray dmg than you, and even the force differance is nothing to overlook. In retern you get what 40 more% out of 650ish? thats almost half the bonus I gave you in my example. See why boosting hl dmg at the expense of resists is usualy a bad idea?

Edit: and you HAVE to scale your numbers or else they don't mean anything since no one takes base line dmg.

mdares
16-03-06, 08:13
u DUNT have to scale; cuz while no one takes baseline, the dmg taken is altered THE SAME AMOUNT regardless whos on the receiving side. hence scaling it only complicates it.

that is, the dmg taken in pvp is the 50% less dmg "hard skin" of the baseline (baseline is established by shooting a roach), then after the hardskin is applied then resists are placed. currently the game DOESNT scale resists and effectiveness according to class.

in either case i still stand by my point that 1% resists is same either way for EVERYONE. u can have 80% resists or 70%; if both get 1% more in resists, it will be THE SAME INCREASE FOR BOTH PEOPLE. (as in if both get shot with a weap that after all else considered does 100 dmg with 0% player resists, the first will take 20 dmg and second 30 dmg; then if u add 1% resists to both people, the first person will take 19 dmg and second 29 dmg.

oh thing i notice ur doign is ur basing dmg taken also on a scaled percentage which is just wrong. why? cuz in pvp it doesnt matter how much % of ur enemy's hp u take out; wut matters is how much dmg it does (the point value rather than percent) because the way dmg affects you is still point based and not based on the % of ur remaining health or wutever % ur referring to.

yeah ur taking % difference in dmg taken which makes things seem TOTALLY skewed in the favor of the one proposing

heres the argument in simpler terms:

u said:
---
now the 1000 weapon does 50 dmg to a tank with 75% ish resists.

Player 1 gets 500% on it=25 dmg
player 2 gets 600% on it-30 dmg

thats only a diffeance of about 7%, this example works in your favor rounding wise, assume I am player 1 and you are player 2.

Now, Assume I have 3% more of a resist than you (keep in mind I have 8% more xray). If a weapon would hit a tank with 75% resists for 50, it would hit me for 6 less dmg, or a differance of 10%.
---

ok now its difference of 7% is ur first flaw. where u get 7% from? even if u take difference and scale it to total dmg, its: 5/25 -> 20% or 5/30 -> 16.7%.

next assuming u have 3% more resistance; if i am the 75% tank who takes 25 dmg, you will have 78% resists and take 22 dmg. scaling as previously: 3/25 -> 12% or 3/22 -> 13.6%. at around 4.5% resist difference or more (so ur xray argument as merrit) the difference is such that resists will be better than the scant amount of dmg afforded. However that means any resist % tweaks that yields less than 4.1% will be essentially negligible (i.e. ur uncapped blessed def).

so yeah it still boils down to the same argument before; offense vs defense; cuz while u gain a lot more for xray and stuff, u lose out on 3 shots that i can get in for free plus i shoot 5-10% faster and have 23% mroe psi pool than u.

RogerRamjet
16-03-06, 10:49
Every setup should use a moveon.

FACT

:p

onero S
16-03-06, 14:08
Every setup should use a moveon.

FACT

:p


thank you,

and madraes, we can do some dmg tests somtime, I think you'll be suppriesed at the lack of differance between our hls and the amount of differance in dmg we take.


I would like to point out one more thing too, resists are not linear.

In other words

If somone does 100 to somone with 10 resists, for them to do half dmg, the person would have to more than double their resist. To go from taking 90% dmg to half which is 45% they would need to go up to 65% resist. Now look at the way nc is set up, everyone has high resist generaly. If you take 20% dmg, and you want to double your defence all you need to do is add 10% resist. See now why you have to scale? 10% resist is not worth the same at all times, it depends on how much resist you already have.


Another way to look at it is the 1% from 99% resists to 100% is the most important 1%.



This is NOT the case on dmg however, doubling the dmg you get on a weapon=twice the dmg, end of story. Hence since people's resists work in the upper ranges in nc (not the lower) resists are more heavily "weighted".



Anway, enouph math, if you don't beleave me we can get togeather and do some resist/dmg testing.



Edit: Then I'll get to see those magic 3 extra shots you keep talking about

Bugs Gunny
16-03-06, 14:22
Resists are overrated......

onero S
16-03-06, 14:29
yea, fuck resists


my new setup will be 0 in all resists, all points in con to ath, all points in dex to agil, red/white flash, a capt hl, and a tl 3 heal.


Thats how the men rock

Bugs Gunny
16-03-06, 14:41
They only do good things up to a little over 100, after that it goes downhill fast.

It' allways amuses me to see "omg l33t setup" pes with 155 resists.

RogerRamjet
16-03-06, 18:01
They only do good things up to a little over 100, after that it goes downhill fast.

It' allways amuses me to see "omg l33t setup" pes with 155 resists.

I thought we were those PEs :p