how about this?

[RentonDraines]

OK... For this post, we need to think of PSI use as a function of the mind- that is, that to use psi powers one must have so much power within his own mind that he controls the minds of others. In this sense, a psi attack can be seen as a halucintory effect which causes the opponent's mind to damage its own body; or conversely, a positive mental force that helps the other being heal or protect itself. This is to say that a psi "spell" actually does nothing in the real world, but manipulates the minds of others to gain the desired effect.

In this sense, current psi lvl caps make a lot of sense. Obviously, the monks have been training these skills since childhood and have a strong understanding of the mind.

Bear with me.

Tanks, of course, were created by the monks; so as a way to keep control over them, they were not burdened with an overabundance of mind power.

While PE's and their stubborn desire to improve themselves in all facets of understanding have gained quite a bit of mind control, the spy, being altogether wholly interested in the diversions of science and trade has largely neglected his.

Why am I rehashing these things? Because a simple solution to monkocron is already IN GAME.

Simply implement Resist PSI at 0.25% 0.75% per skill point. This fixed (read: working) psi resist would resist buffs AND attacks.

At 0.5% per point, here's how the caps would work out:

At PSI 10, a tank's measly mind control would give him a whole 25% resistance to PSI attacks. Since he was designed to serve the monks, this is reasonable. Obviously this tank was brought up to hate his masters. Why else would he spend every single psi point in denial of the darker arts?

With his unenviable 20 psi, a capped spy could mentally deny 37.5% of all psi attacks or buffs. A spy who has spent every psi point on resist obviously has dedicated his life to the tangible sciences; any thought of "ESP" must just be too absurd to effect him... of course, what he doesn't know CAN hurt him.

The PE, with his 35 psi, has the advantage of knowing the dark arts and denying them willfully. This "street smarts" allows him a whopping 50% reduction in all psi attacks. Try as they might, all but the most powerful monks simply cannot get "into his head" and cannot hurt him.

All psi resists - however large or small - would be calculated before any other resists. That is, the player simply would not be affected by psi. Any psi that gets through this resist would then be subject to normal resists.

Of course you will note that the capped resist%'s noted above would keep players from using PSI themselves, since they are in denial of its very existence. Also keep in mind that monks will not be able to effectively buff these players since their "denial of the force" will keep it from affecting them.

I was just thinking of this concept now, so i'm open to thoughts and improvements. Obviously i didn't invent psi resists, but I was just thinking of a way to implement it, so that it fits with the game concept and isn't just yet-another-mystery-skill.

Renton

[Apocalypsox]

brilliant- this has been lightly suggested before but not in such a thurough manner. this would successfully balace the game (or atleast nearly) unless KK screwed this over too. now let me give my contribution.

We already have nanites in the game. the Feild Meeic newby mission has them in use for healing a poison in a man.

Now what i cannot understand is why players cannot control the art of nanites yet. the spys should be able to be quite effiecent in this art. this would successfully make us not have to deal with shoving monks up our ass, and if players wanted to not get completely owned by Holy Lightning (therefore putting all their PSI into resist as stated above) would not have to rely on those crappy medkits for healing.

Nanites should also be able to be used to Persay "Buff" the receiving players body. If the nanites would have the capacity to heal people, they should be able to Traverse the bloodstream of the player, and anchor themselves in the needed area of the body. They could administer maybe a Artificul Adrenaline, or give a boost to your Constitution by sticking in the heart or other parts of the body to filter out toxins. Of course the nanites should also be able to be attached to the Spine or arms to give a minor boost to strenght or a weapon skill (Steadying your arm making you aim better or being able to swing a melee weapon harder and faster)

Nanites should also be able to be used as a means of Offence. They could filter themselves into the bloodstream and administer a Neurotoxin, or a simple poison to reduce the players constituion (sort of like a minor damage buff) Or possibly administer a drug to "Paralyze" the body of sorts, maybe not actually making the player unable to move, but killing there strenght, and/or making there hands shake therefore damaging there ability to hit targets with their weapons.

[Ivan Eres]

A good and efficient suggestion, RentonDraines.

I think PSI RESIST is the skill that people who don't want PSI to be that strong in the game really need. It's perfect for players who see NC as an apocalyptic shooter with "real" weapons, without "wizardry". Denying PSI in that kind of way would make perfect sense with the fixed skill PSI RESIST.

Apocalypsox, i think your suggestion of a complete new system denies the effort that's needed to implement it. Efficient ideas are better, because it's costly to build in the fantasies we've all got.

Such a new "no-psi" movement is a good way to weaken the importance of PSI, and therefore Monkocron. A runner denying PSI can't have efficient foreign buffs and heal, but can't be killed that easy by an APU too.

I suggest to not change self casts. Spending precious points in PSI on PSI RESIST is disadvantage enough.
Self PSI could be seen as a way of concentrating the very own mind on something, like the regeneration of the body, while foreign PSI is a way of manipulating the mind of others, where the Resist would then kick in.

[Destino]

Imho, you are starting from a wrong RP point. PSI is not only a mental illusory manipulation, but it produces REAL effects using a "module" (spi spells). So while enhance skills might be considered as illusory manipulation, energy beam of course cannot.
Btw i like the resist concept and i guess it can be "tested" to see how it balance things

As for the nanite one, what's the difference with a "simple" monk? Nanites instead of PSI energy, but same effects... so what's the point? Mine is a question, maybe i did'nt understood the point of it...

[Scaramanga]

With characters speccing high Resist psi, would they then forgo entirely their ability to heal, thereby needing a PPU? As 50% of a holy heal is better than 0% of a tl 3 heal.

[solling]

RP nerf mokage FTW

[Dribble Joy]

People would either ignore this entirely or be forced to glue a PPU to themselves even more, guess which option most team players will take?

Resist psi ideas have come and gone and frankly, the skill just needs to be removed, it is and will be of little real use unless there is massive (and rather restrictive) changes to the way psi works.

[Spermy]

They wouldn't eb speccing it scara, it's be an underlying effect.

The only problem with this is APUs. they would become too delicate if they resisted buffs to too high a degree. Possibly create a scale of diminishing returns so Psi resist levels off towards the higher levels - maxing out at say 60%ish? Monks can still heal and buff each other, but not as effectively, and the APU can still deal damage and be protected?

[Hell-demon]

Cant we make psi resist just resist aggressive spells :rolleyes:

[Bugs Gunny]

So, let's see, the apu and ppus wouldn't spec it since they want to help each other.

Leaves the omg 25% resist psi spy who now can't cast shelter, but maybe still heal gimped.

The tank who will live on medpacks and no buffs from now on.

The pe who can no longer use anything but a basic basic resist and deflector, and has healing at a rate of 6 per tick.

In comest the pure apu-ppu team, apu gets 100% holy heal on him. Even at 50-75% dammage the apu ppu team will still rule the world, as the others have lost more than that in defences.

Before you suggest stuff like this, think about what effect it will have on all classes. And most importantly, try finding ways of getting past a nerf or new change to still have the best possible setup. It's what people WILL do as soon as something is changed. If you don't prepare for stuff like that, all your ideas will go down faster than a submarine filled with pure lead.


And Lore, i find it funny how you cheer "monk nerfage", yet your "no monk" fights allways end up in being ppu plugged by "friendly" clans and FF's alts.

[Apocalypsox]

Thats why i suggested the tech healing idea bugs. if we didnt get another method of healing theres no way in hell anyone would do this.

[Scaramanga]

They wouldn't eb speccing it scara, it's be an underlying effect.



Sorry for being a thickie Spermy, but you really have lost me with that statement, please explain.

Bugs, thanks for your post, was what i wanted to say, but don't have enough experience with fighting to be able to itrerate it that poignantly.

[krynstone]

The original post is amazing as well as the following...I think that maybe KK intended somehting like this but some unseen problem existed. Please get psi resist working kk.

On a separate not...I believe those that spec all psi resist would need to use medkits or nanite:)....could you believe?...a spy becoming one of the new field medic units:).

Or what about the suggestion of nanites being used to harm enemies. That opens doors for RP much more than before. A spy stealths up behind some assassination target, uncloaks, pokes and injects nanites that paralyze the target. That would be great. It would make spies more tactical than they currently are. The effects shouldn't be insane though otherwise it would definitely be abused, however it should be useful. Maybe not paralyse....but cause poison like damage with another "anti-whatever" nanite that nust be injected to counteract. Yeah...it would just be an imitation of poison...but its adds real depth and reality to a game about such a futuristic society. There would be multiple ways of achieving an end. The only catch here would be that it takes another spy to administer the "anti" nanites needed to cure the player

[Ivan Eres]

PSI resist only against Aggressive PSI, and not affecting own PSI.

Would that work ?

[Paper Dragon]

If Psi resist was to apply to all of Psi-Monk's attacks, shall we also say that people only have to spec one skill to resist all rifles, pistols and heavy weapons?

[Spermy]

Sorry for being a thickie Spermy, but you really have lost me with that statement, please explain.

Bugs, thanks for your post, was what i wanted to say, but don't have enough experience with fighting to be able to itrerate it that poignantly.

I may have been lost myself. From what I interptretted, you were talking about having to spec points in resists Psi?

What I'm getting at is what if it doesn't rely on specced points, and is simply an underlying talent that increases with your level?

[RentonDraines]

If Psi resist was to apply to all of Psi-Monk's attacks, shall we also say that people only have to spec one skill to resist all rifles, pistols and heavy weapons?

erm, that's called SHELTER =)
Oh, and don't forget armor- note, there's no RESIST PSI stat on any armor, and even if
there were, it doesn't work right now!
Aside from resists which already exist in CON and STR, weapons only do 1 other type of damage: piercing, which is covered by deflectors and armor. So your point is what exactly?

PSI is the only irresistable force that I know of. I know psi attacks elementally, but is that 100% of the damage? I don't know. The whole idea here is to give people a _choice_ on how they spend their psi points, using a RP rationalisation.

There are some good points in the above responses, and that's why I opened this up for discussion. I shouldn't be expected to think of every single result of an idea just to offer it for people to talk about. If I had all the answers, I'd simply email KK with my perfect idea.

As for the thought that people would be forced to lose their heals, buffs, etc... Nobody is forcing you to spec POR, right? So if you have no need to resist poison for example, you don't spec it. I expect many players would simply IGNORE resist psi and opt for setups they use now. But for those who want an extra layer of protection from monks would have this option. Even specing say 10 points, giving you a 5% defense (for example, would need to be tweaked) could mean the difference of life or death in certain situations.

There must be a downside to a resist like this, which is why I suggested the resist also affecting buffs. I do like the idea of simply resisting foreign buffs exclusively, since the player's own buffs will be lessened to the extent that he wasted potential psi on resist.

p.s.
Honestly, every time I post ideas here, there's people who want to just say how it's crappy and I shouldn't have bothered posting it. I have no problem with those opinions, but it would certainly be more appreciated if you offered ALTERNATIVES.

[Scaramanga]

Ah righto.

You mean like ghost points, with health /stamina rewarded for con levels without speccing end or Body health. Think it works differently for resists, Con not affecting fire/xray etc, just the number of points designated to specific resist.

If the same principle was applied to the resist psi then you would have to spec it to see any effect.

Can't wait to see Diruses work on the test server when it gets up and running.


Edit;

You mean just Psi attack spell or all psi aggressive spells Renton?
Afaik psi attack is force damage.

[Paper Dragon]

erm, that's called SHELTER =)
Oh, and don't forget armor- note, there's no RESIST PSI stat on any armor, and even if
there were, it doesn't work right now!
Aside from resists which already exist in CON and STR, weapons only do 1 other type of damage: piercing, which is covered by deflectors and armor. So your point is what exactly?

My point is that if you demand all psi spells use resist psi as their counter, you should use one stat to counter all projectile based weaponry. Simple.


PSI is the only irresistable force that I know of. I know psi attacks elementally, but is that 100% of the damage? I don't know. The whole idea here is to give people a _choice_ on how they spend their psi points, using a RP rationalisation.

Resist Psi is useless, and no spells use Psi as the damage type; it's all energy, fire...etc.

So your comment about there being no resist psi on armour is pointless, because it's a completely redundant skill.

[krynstone]

I do believe that some of the damage on psi spells is a type of straight psionic damage. Which gets translated into physical.

[Obsidian X]

I do believe that some of the damage on psi spells is a type of straight psionic damage. Which gets translated into physical.

I could have sworn Dirus said there's categorically no PSI-damage types in the game - that would only give monks a further advantage.

[Paper Dragon]

I do believe that some of the damage on psi spells is a type of straight psionic damage. Which gets translated into physical.

I thought that was the case as well, but as already mentioned, Dirius has confirmed that no spells use any psionic damage; it's merely fire, energy, force...etc. Everything that can be resisted through normal means.

[Apocalypsox]

then Holy Lightning must dish out some mad force damage.

[RentonDraines]

in that case, I'm glad I said "i don't know" regarding whether there was an actual "psi force" type of damage. I guess this makes sense with psi resist not working. It would be kind of redundant to have a psi resist skill if it only adds percentage points to resists already available. But then again, maybe not so much... I mean if someone really focuses their attention into denial of psi powers, maybe they _could_ resist those forces even more. RP is important to me. otherwise i'd just play quake 4.

[krynstone]

My mistake on the input then guys...sorry:).

[Richard Slade]

Remove psi-booster 2 and 3 tbh... ;)