View Full Version : Curiosity
I have a question that I'm wondering how many people will get correct.
When you see a game with insanely high numbers for showing things like health, armor ect. Why do you think it is that they chose to show them like that?
Paper Dragon
02-02-06, 04:09
Gives the player an over-inflated value of just how strong they are. :p
Bring back the days when warriors had 21HP and Mages got by with 7HP, dammit.
Gives the player an over-inflated value of just how strong they are. :p
Bring back the days when warriors had 21HP and Mages got by with 7HP, dammit.
No, but it has to do with why some games have just 21hp and 7hp for characters.
Becouse people generaly grow ingame and the numbers raise or....
To create more damage variation thats a bit less linear.
Just my guess. There could be other reasons i supose though. After all higher numbers are more exciting :p .
hmmm ....
damage output to high ? or maybe to handle a lot of different damage ?
or to handle the different classes and their resists ? no idea ... tell us :)
I think, if you see higher numbers you will feel more confident with your abilities.
I think, if you see higher numbers you will fell more confident with your abilities.
QFT , is what i was gonna say .
You guys are kinda touching on why..
Key points so far are, less linear, variations, and a visual change.
sanityislost
02-02-06, 04:44
So players have see things they may or may not being able to reach depending
on how they decide to play the game, setup the char and how much they are
willing to put time into a game.
The Game devs in most other mmo's love to put things ingame that about 1% (if
that) that the player base will get there hands on....evil buggers
Its kinda like the old jedi's in swg
i may have lost the plot but meh :lol:
SiL ..:..
Dribble Joy
02-02-06, 04:53
Greater scope for variation, helps with the whole leveling system (scaling), less room for errors with rounding up and other factors.
More a reason to have large numbers in NC than not to.
So players have see things they may or may not being able to reach depending
on how they decide to play the game, setup the char and how much they are
willing to put time into a game.
The Game devs in most other mmo's love to put things ingame that about 1% (if
that) that the player base will get there hands on....evil buggers
SiL ..:..
Way off in left field, but as for the 1% thing, the Dev's may love putting them in, but you can't deny that the players don't love stuff like that either. While not all the players out there care, there is a large portion of players who strive just to achieve those goals, and to them its a sign of accomplishment.
Theres a pic I'd so love to post right now saying behold the fabled gamer who has all the 1% items there are.. but I'd get in trouble for it so :/
damage is to less linear and the variations of classes/chars and their armor/con is to different. so if they use lower numbers they could not show a accurate visual effect to other runners if their target is damaged/healed/buffed. (just tried to use your words :p )
damn u said change :(
Apocalypsox
02-02-06, 05:27
...lol is it a picture of Niddy? (LOL JOKE DONT BAN ME)
but anyways i think its because if players have more health, you can create the different classes which deal different damages so its not the basic WarriorvsMage thing for range, we can have rifles and pistols and cannons and rockets and spells and shit.
(i know i got it wrong just stabbing into thin air)
the winner gets the picture :p
more clues are: levels, damage types, armor sets.
I'm not sure I have a single clue of what Dirus is talking about (maybe it's time for me to go back take some english lessons again), but if he means devs usually choose very high numbers to display health/armor/etc values, I think it's all clear : most of them are probably just too bad at mathematics to deal with several decimals Oo
In Neocron for example..
The highest damage weapons and spells in the game do just over 1k damage.
Players love seeing big damage come off.
Small numbers are more statistical and ridged. In a serious strategy game it would be much easier to grasp small and logical numbers..
I can use Final Fantasy (or any other Japanese RPG) as an example.
In FFX you can do 99,999 damage. Because thats just fucking cool.
You start the game doing 80-100 damage though. It's designed to give a sense of insane power (which is actualy true) as fun as that is it does lead to tredmill based MMOs that are high-level-biased. In Neocron the scale is so short that high level players are not THAT dramaticly higher than low level ones.
It would be interesting to design a game around a low number system then project the numbers at 500% to the players. Much easier balancing.
I personally would enjoy a very low number design.. it would feel comfortable and easier to grasp.
This question hurts my brain o_O
This question hurts my brain o_O
yeah same here
Simply cuz it gives more room for readjusting/adapting.
showing 7 HP does not make a lot of possibilities
maybe they have to much of the same stuff ingame and had to turn the damage % up to have a visual change between the damage numbers of a lets say tl 50 raygun and a tl 60 raygun so they had to use higher numbers for health and create higher armor to compensate the higher damage
or maybe its 5 am i didnt sleep for 2 days and i am talking complete BS :)
if he means devs usually choose very high numbers to display health/armor/etc values, I think it's all clear : most of them are probably just too bad at mathematics to deal with several decimals Oo
Close, basically right on, but I have no issue with decimal places, so I'm deducting marks from you there (i.e. you lose your picture reward) :p
It's more about the visual look to it. Would you rather have armor that increased by 0.001 in its stats every level, or armor that shows an increase of 1.0 every level?. If you choose 1.0 then you need to make sure that your end number is the same as it would be for the 0.001 increase, then multiplied by 1000. so if it was 10, it'd now need to be 10000.
The more a number has to be split across different areas such as head, chest, ect, coupled with larger amounts of gainable levels the larger then end number has to be in order to show a visible change in a "whole" number, otherwise all you'd see is decimal point changes.
In effect the only reason this is done is for the player's benefit. I personally don't care much since I can take any number whether its 10 or 78342 and it'd still be the same to me. I'd look at 10 as being 100% just like I would 78342. The only difference is I'd be multiplying the values givin by 10.0 or by 0.001276
To recap, the more complex the system, and the more areas one single number has to be stretched across, the higher the end number will usually be in order to avoid showing the players numbers like a 0.001276 gain for each level.
Oh and because it gives more elaborated description to player the higher the health rating is.
for instance having 10 HP would be the ultimate non precise, and having 1000
would be its opposite.
And then in the MMO case they can add stuff and they have more... lever to rearange everything.
Well then.
I'm curious as to how this relates to Neocron. I'm sure it does, but I don't know how Neocron does things right now, or how it may come future patches.
No, but it has to do with why some games have just 21hp and 7hp for characters.
Perhaps because people believe that with more hit points they will live longer, though in truth, if nc had 50 instead of 500 and guns did 5 instead of 50 everything would still work out the same.
I play an rpg (board game) called "Cyberpunk" in which everyone has 40 hp, but it's very realistic chances are you'll die from 20 points of damage, or at least be knocked uncontious.
I have a question that I'm wondering how many people will get correct.
Are you just wondering for no reason or is this your way of judging the communitys knowledge of balance? Im wondering becouse this thread would prove nothing.
Intresting though, thx :) .
Are you just wondering for no reason or is this your way of judging the communitys knowledge of balance? Im wondering becouse this thread would prove nothing.
Intresting though, thx :) .
I was playing around with different ideas for armor levels and noticed that one of them would have required the current 200 cap to be replaced with one closer to 6500. The 6500 one came about by splitting the number across 10 different items each with a varying % of the total armor allowed for that level, 130 levels, and being at a max of 4% of the total armor level that would have been available for one of the 10 items. a 6500 Total would have resulted in that piece of armor giving a max of 4% having a grand total of "2" armor points. If I was to assign that same item a minimum of "10" armor points at the same level using the same rules, the max would have to be changed to 32500.
It was more of a curiosity thing to me, in a way to see if anyone could figure out why things happen the way they do. Plus also it might have interested some as to why most games end up with 1000's of points in certain areas.
In effect the only reason this is done is for the player's benefit. I personally don't care much since I can take any number whether its 10 or 78342 and it'd still be the same to me. I'd look at 10 as being 100% just like I would 78342. The only difference is I'd be multiplying the values givin by 10.0 or by 0.001276
It's for the same reason that Celsius > Farenheit... Meters > Feet... The scaling and measurement of the 'in-between' items is just easier. A scale from 1-100, is much easier to manage via thought for most people than a scale from 32- 212. Why are mobs in NC capped at rank 127? Why not 100? I'd say the calculations in NC are quite odd to start with because of things like that and equating the existing scale to a 1-100/1000 system is just a good step at easing the end-user's experience into the game-world.
Oh, I thought it had something to do with memory efficiency. If you have 32 bits in an int, why not use them all? I know games like starcraft had max stats of 255 because of that reason...
In effect the only reason this is done is for the player's benefit. I personally don't care much since I can take any number whether its 10 or 78342 and it'd still be the same to me. I'd look at 10 as being 100% just like I would 78342. The only difference is I'd be multiplying the values givin by 10.0 or by 0.001276
To recap, the more complex the system, and the more areas one single number has to be stretched across, the higher the end number will usually be in order to avoid showing the players numbers like a 0.001276 gain for each level.
it's not the same and you care a lot and dont be stubborn :lol:
the metric system is not invented by chance. it's invented because us humans have 10 fingers and is easier for us to understand analogies. That's SI is now in effect and not other systems.
As for the question, you can take ANY number no matter how complex it is and convert it to 100% and show this value instead. I never understood why there had to be values like 568% or 178% in neocron.
On the other hand for weapons not knowing the max freq rate, this gives a reason to search it, something i have done for many guns improving on the "adventure" aspect of neocron
I'm sure in some cases a lot of it also has to do with choosing inadequate initial bounding values in planning stages :D
Add several years worth of runaway positive feedback loops and things can start to get ... silly :angel:
Has to be said - make guns cap at 100%, not the crazy numbers they are now. We've already noticed that various things that are shown to us as integers actually have decimal values behind them.
Sgt. Pepper
02-02-06, 10:24
well, the only thing Dirus said since this balancing thing was brought up:
"you have to see the whole thing, not single pieces"
This is a sentece with about 10 words. Dirus needed 12 posts with 10428 words to say this.
So i think, this thread was started to perpare us seeing really high numbers for health and stuff in the future.
This is not of any logic. Its just that Dirus thinks in a (too) big scale ^^
Bugs Gunny
02-02-06, 10:44
Okay, two types.
One char has 10 hp, the other one 1000.
Now how many variations of armor and weapons can you put on the two characters to make pvp interesting?
I'd go for 1000 version.
EDIT: Dirus, in NC do the numbers get rounded or not?
For instance speccing conpoints untill you get one less point dammage... Is it in effect one point less or just another rounding result?
landofcake
02-02-06, 10:56
My view is, perhaps it allows games to have more and subtle variations on the amount of damage done by things.
For example, if you've got a game where you only have 20hp, that doesn't give you a particularly large scale for varying the damages of weapons and/or damages from other enviromental factors.
So, fancy one day you want to implement one big gun, something so awe inspiring that the average game player will think "christ, that hurts a bit".
If you've got all characters having 20hp, you haven't really got anywhere you can go with it.
Whereas if you've got characters who have a maximum health of 1000, and your basic weapons are doing in the region of 200 or so damage, you can implement some sort of 'uber weapon' quite easily to do 800 damage or so ... which will give you the "christ, that hurts a bit" effect.
Basically what i'm trying to say here is that with smaller health values i imagine it would be harder to implement effective damage scaling.
Think of it, have you ever been running around in a game, taking normal damage and normal hits only to suddenly hit by something large and 'in-charge' ? The normal reponse from myself is "BLOODY HELL ! i'm getting out of here ..."
Dargeshaad
02-02-06, 11:06
Didn't you know?
Curiosity killed the cat...
away from my cats you freaks!
Dirus, poke someone @ KK to give us some info about the neptune please! Most people thinks that it will be another test server so they are leaving/playing less often etc... We (i mean, people playing on neptune, at least - if not the whole community) really need to know what will become of neptune. /sorry for offtopic/
I was playing around with different ideas for armor levels and noticed that one of them would have required the current 200 cap to be replaced with one closer to 6500. The 6500 one came about by splitting the number across 10 different items each with a varying % of the total armor allowed for that level, 130 levels, and being at a max of 4% of the total armor level that would have been available for one of the 10 items. a 6500 Total would have resulted in that piece of armor giving a max of 4% having a grand total of "2" armor points. If I was to assign that same item a minimum of "10" armor points at the same level using the same rules, the max would have to be changed to 32500.
Did my brain just melt reading that?
Bugs Gunny
02-02-06, 13:10
Basicaly what he's saying is "bye bye cookie cutter setups" where every class uses the same kind of armor setup.
There will be more nuances and different possibilities.
What's realy gonna hurt my brain is redoing the whole thing to find the ideal pvp setup again.... Lom pills here we come....
Did my brain just melt reading that?
Not only yours, though I did get it.
Marginally
more clues are: levels, damage types, armor sets.
Cookie cuterism? Everyones diferent? O_o
I was playing around with different ideas for armor levels and noticed that one of them would have required the current 200 cap to be replaced with one closer to 6500. The 6500 one came about by splitting the number across 10 different items each with a varying % of the total armor allowed for that level, 130 levels, and being at a max of 4% of the total armor level that would have been available for one of the 10 items. a 6500 Total would have resulted in that piece of armor giving a max of 4% having a grand total of "2" armor points. If I was to assign that same item a minimum of "10" armor points at the same level using the same rules, the max would have to be changed to 32500.
It was more of a curiosity thing to me, in a way to see if anyone could figure out why things happen the way they do. Plus also it might have interested some as to why most games end up with 1000's of points in certain areas.
What would teh chances be on a reshuffle to this method in Neocron?
RogerRamjet
02-02-06, 14:42
Im confused :confused:
Bugs Gunny
02-02-06, 14:59
Roger don't get confused, when the time is there, the fetish research departement will provide you with a new setup.
Just don't think about it and keep shooting people soldier :-)
Dribble Joy
02-02-06, 15:06
The overall apparent system probably won't change that much, different numbers maybe, but you'll still want roughly equal armours in total. What will take a little time will be finding the best point efficiency and hp/armour balance.
RogerRamjet
02-02-06, 15:07
I hope theres a point release at the end of all this...
Dribble Joy
02-02-06, 15:10
For skills/psi maybe, but if the required changes to armour/resists on the player's side are minimal, they probably won't
Skill releases in the past were because the systems were still somewhat experimental and subject to frequent change.
Scaramanga
02-02-06, 15:18
I wouldnt rack your brains too hard about it. Higher resists will still mean less damage taken. Prolly find a setup that suits by the same way most people do now; if the shit fits, wear it!!
Whats the point?
The numbers the system uses to calculate stuff doesnt have to be visible anyway. Add another lil calc at the end of the line and display everything in 1-100 // xx/100% ...whats the fuzz all about?
I dont care what numbers nc crunches in the background, as long as the user interface has the right balance of simplicity and variation.
Whats the point?
I dont care what numbers nc crunches in the background, as long as the user interface has the right balance of simplicity and variation.
By having more numbers to crunch, the IS more variation. ;)
By having more numbers to crunch, the IS more variation. ;)
As Lupus said .. it doesnt really matter wether you have 100 or 1000 as 100% - it only effects where you have to put the decimal in the calcs. The variation possible with 100 as max is the same as with 1000. The reason ppl say 1000 is favourable is that you dont have to use decimals that much .. and I say: who cares - you can turn any wierd decimal or insane large number into something simple and comprehensive for user interaction .. no matter what the sys in the background relies on. The display wont be as precise, but a lot more comprehensive to new players and trial - users.
RentonDraines
02-02-06, 17:12
edited]
As Lupus said .. it doesnt really matter wether you have 100 or 1000 as 100% - it only effects where you have to put the decimal in the calcs. The variation possible with 100 as max is the same as with 1000. The reason ppl say 1000 is favourable is that you dont have to use decimals that much .. and I say: who cares - you can turn any wierd decimal or insane large number into something simple and comprehensive for user interaction .. no matter what the sys in the background relies on. The display wont be as precise, but a lot more comprehensive to new players and trial - users.
Point taken :p
I was always of the persuasion that 1.390 is different to 1390, but I see the point now that if you shufty the decimals, you don't ever need to use 1390.
Gotcha.
RogerRamjet
02-02-06, 17:46
Ohh yes. I get it, the numbers wont be seen? Thats ok. I was thinking that youd look at your vest and it'd say "1000000 energy" or something mad.
Dribble Joy
02-02-06, 18:02
Ohh yes. I get it, the numbers wont be seen? Thats ok. I was thinking that youd look at your vest and it'd say "1000000 energy" or something mad.
No, it will say something like 2000.... (unless the visual numbers are reduced).
mmm supose this ill post on
to me 12 hp is no different to 91924 hp... but over a certain amount numbers dont gel fast in normal peoples heads. and under a certain amount the numbers are to small for people ot want to deal with... people dont like decimals
whhy not use the large numbers your thinking of but display them like expiriance bars???
the number writen on the expiriance bar. you probably would never reach 100% defence against something but the bars length would show u roughly how protected you are and the numbesr are good for carefull calculations
=z big numbers alow for a much greater diversity. if every weapon did say 3 different damage types. each gun specilising in a certain area of damage and mods didnt just change the damage but improved certain damages decreased others. then we could get a greater diversit in the weapons used also.
also you have to try n mix the fact that human like metric 1-10 numbers but computers prefer a binary type so you have to keep a balance (like having a 255 stat cap is seen as the norm but not the prefered for a human mind)
=[ all this said u cant take away values... if you remove people seeing the actual values... the drive to push our setup to the max, and squeeze every last point out of it will go and simplifing things to a 1-100% would take alot of the mathamatical presicition out of developing ones character
RogerRamjet
02-02-06, 18:59
(unless the visual numbers are reduced).
Thats what im hoping for.
Dribble Joy
02-02-06, 19:21
But hen if something is say... +1835, it would have to be reduced to something like 18 which is a bit daft, unless they have decimaled armour values.
Currently what you see when you look at an armor's info ingame is a rounded number. If the armor has a value of 13.59 in one of its stats it will show as 14 to a player. If it worked out to 13.95 it'd still show as 14 to the player, giving the impression that there was no change at all, even tho it works out to a 2% increase.
If the game showed (true armor number * 100) to the players, then they'd see 1359 armor for one, and 1395 armor for the other. Which is alot easier for people to visually see a difference with.
Where larger numbers come into play is only for ease of use on the players side, and is usually just a (true value * decimal removing factor) calculation that is done when showing the armor value in the info window.
Hence why some stats goto 178%, and others goto 578% ect. It's done purely to show a more visually pleasing change to the numbers that are actually minute in size. Especially in the case of 578% where a 1% increase is akin to a 0.17301% increase if the max shown was 100%. What would you rather see? a 5% increase in a stat, or a 0.86505% increase?
Heavyporker
02-02-06, 19:53
Still... I have to admit, the thought of things making more sense in the end really appeals to me.
Artifact items are 100%, Perfect are 95%.
Armor types now are much more diverse. A real difference between Duranium and Duranit!
Perhaps, with the scaling like that for hitpoints, there'd be a more compelling reason to take up +CON/+hlt implants (like Cyberhearts, Str hearts) and drugs (What was it... been so long... something like Ambidextrite, and... what the fuck were the storebought +con/hlt drugs?!)
Not to mention, a fresh approach to hitpoints/armor could reveal just what is fucked up about fall damage.
Dribble Joy
02-02-06, 19:55
Actually, I like 120 as artifact, makes it seem beyond the ordinary, an artifact in fact. Though perhaps perfect should be 95-100.
Still... I have to admit, the thought of things making more sense in the end really appeals to me.
Artifact items are 100%, Perfect are 95%.
Limiting yourself to 100% as the max being shown means than when you start trying to stretch that across 120-140 levels, you will not always see an increase in the percentage your currently at. Nor will you see minute differences between 2 different stats on the same item.
If for example you have a piece of armor that has 65 Pierce, and 35 Force at level 100. How small do you think the changes would be between lvls for the Force armor? If you started with 1 Force at TL1, each level after that would only add 0.353535. TL1 -> TL2 you wouldnt see a Visible change at all. TL3 it'd increase to 2 ect.. To the game however there is a difference between TL1 and TL2.
I am all but happy about sacrificing usability (which nc greatly lacks anyway)for the most precise display of skill values.
In fact I dont even think its bad if you have to play arround a little with your setup to do the last tweaks, rather than just adding up a few numbers.
You dont see the % of resist-effect anyway.. you only see the # of points assigned. So what progress are you ought to "see" ? Health? Yeah.. you'd probably get a more precise display of your total health... but there's no need to be uber precise there... +- 5 hlth are in most cases not the win/loose factor. Weapon-Damage? Possibly ... but not that important either ...that can easily be checked anyway and right now putting a single point in the main subskill always affects the dmg% visibly....
So why - for what big advantage - push up the visible, front-end, stats/numbers ?
I still dont get the big pro .. maybe I just didnt understand what you're talking about.
I am all but happy about sacrificing usability (which nc greatly lacks anyway)for the most precise display of skill values.
In fact I dont even think its bad if you have to play arround a little with your setup to do the last tweaks, rather than just adding up a few numbers.
You dont see the % of resist-effect anyway.. you only see the # of points assigned. So what progress are you ought to "see" ? Health? Yeah.. you'd probably get a more precise display of your total health... but there's no need to be uber precise there... +- 5 hlth are in most cases not the win/loose factor. Weapon-Damage? Possibly ... but not that important either ...that can easily be checked anyway and right now putting a single point in the main subskill always affects the dmg% visibly....
So why - for what big advantage - push up the visible, front-end, stats/numbers ?
I still dont get the big pro .. maybe I just didnt understand what you're talking about.
I wasn't really talking about pushing up the numbers shown, I was more or less discussing why at times you'll see huge numbers on some games. The pro's and con's of high numbers vs low numbers so to speak.
I was curious to see if anyone could figure it out, and at the same time shed some light on why at times you dont see a change between two items that are close in TL's. Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean there isnt one.
I wasn't really talking about pushing up the numbers shown, I was more or less discussing why at times you'll see huge numbers on some games. The pro's and con's of high numbers vs low numbers so to speak.
I was curious to see if anyone could figure it out, and at the same time shed some light on why at times you dont see a change between two items that are close in TL's. Just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean there isnt one.
Make all weapon %s at out of 1000, however the weapon stats, not what you get on it, should be made as out of 100%
If the hp system was doubled it would make things better imo.
Also (and this is very off topic) remove random psi dmg, it was not a good way to balance psi. Give it fixed dmg and healing and then balance it.
Richard Slade
04-02-06, 15:14
Higher numbers = higher differences, but also = more calculation needed
7000 hp is the same as 7.000 hp if you get my drift, however the might take away the .000 making it only 7 hp but mostly it still calculates the .000 and removes 1.000 every time the value is reached.
Reason why the two? Preferences and also the embiggening it gives (Simpsons ftw)
It was more of a curiosity thing to me, in a way to see if anyone could figure out why things happen the way they do. Plus also it might have interested some as to why most games end up with 1000's of points in certain areas.
There is no difference in a game when you could pick dealing thousands of damage points or just units except the decimal place, if your re-doing the armour, health or anything system you must ask yourself...why? does it need changing? what is wrong with it? what possible problems will arries from my new way of doing things.
For example if say you increased the armour cap from 200 to 2000 then wouldn't you be changing the armour from things like 2 to 20? This makes it pointless really if people have math skills they should beable to work out 20+37+3+91 and not get 4. Don't spend 2.2 changing things that are fine... as the saying goes, if it ant broke don't try to fix it.
Richard Slade
04-02-06, 15:45
Fix the PPUs by taking away lvl 3 buffs and giving them psi turrets
(currently my solution to everything that involves balance
It would make Neocron so much easier to explain if weapons, aiming, psi, condition, and so on.. all capped at 100.0% Why not add a decimal?
Psi Turrets... err... no. That's what COMBAT characters are for.
Richard Slade
04-02-06, 15:47
Psi Turrets... err... no. That's what COMBAT characters are for.
I think you kinda failed to hit the barn this time... o_O
There is no difference in a game when you could pick dealing thousands of damage points or just units except the decimal place, if your re-doing the armour, health or anything system you must ask yourself...why? does it need changing? what is wrong with it? what possible problems will arries from my new way of doing things.
For example if say you increased the armour cap from 200 to 2000 then wouldn't you be changing the armour from things like 2 to 20? This makes it pointless really if people have math skills they should beable to work out 20+37+3+91 and not get 4. Don't spend 2.2 changing things that are fine... as the saying goes, if it ant broke don't try to fix it.
I don't think you got the point I was trying to make. There is no increase in anything when comparing 200 to 2000. The only change would be the addition of a (value * 10) to the line of code that displays how much armor something gives in the info window.
Possible problems that could arise form this are none.
What something like that would do is allow smaller changes in numbers to be visible to the players. It's not about 20+37+3+91, it's about comparing things like 30.53 to 30.76, which currently ingame they'd both show as 31. Add the (value*10) line and they're now 305 vs 308.
Which solves the whole "Wtf!! theres no difference between these two, this one is pointless!" mindset people have.
The reason anything like this would even be an issue is when your trying to take 100 and spread it across say 140 levels and actually show a change between say lvl 130 and 131. The reason the current system is 200 and not 100 is because 200 will show all 0.5% changes as a whole number, just like changing it to 400 would have a whole number for all 0.25% changes.
Edit.
To further clarify something here. Say you had a complete set of items that gave 200 armor to one stat, and that this set was made up of a Helmet, Vest, Belt, Pants, Boots, Headbone, Chestbone, Armbone, Legbone, & Footbone. Now imagine that the headbone only made up 4% or 8 points of that 200. And that this set was TL130.
That 8 points means you would only "see" a change in its armor amount 8 times if you made versions of it at each and every TL. Add the (value*10) line and you'd now "see" it change 80 times.
Also I have not said anything was being changed, the whole point of this thread was just a discussion on why some games will have 1000's of points for something where as others may only have 10's.
1000's = easier for players to see changes made since the decimal place changes aren't hidden to them.
10's = smaller numbers for the players to work with, but no reliabilty in comparing two items that show the exact same amount. Since Each point would make 10%, any and all changes to the effect of 10% to 14% would be hidden, and any change to the effect of 15 to 19% would give the players the illusion that one item only offers 10% where as the other offers 20% which is wrong.
Dirus has it right.
Yeah, like we were doubting that O.o
Higher numbers cetianly seem more player friendly in terms of differentiating setups after reading your posts Dirus and i personally would apprechiate higher numbers than smaller in a gaming situation.
Although you were only curious about how people react to such things if you were considering it in the Neocron balancing even as just the *10 multiplyer stuck to the end of the code id like to see it as more visable variation is much better in my opinion.
we dont see our % defence anyway...
are u saying say a protophama resistor gives 15 to a stat but it could be giving 15.4 and another thing saying 15 could give 14.5???
because as we cant see our % then normal numbers wont do much :S
your trying to say armour doesnt give 50 energy when it says it does. it gives 49.5<->50.49 ?
Apocalypsox
04-02-06, 22:27
....woo .49 of a point lol
....woo .49 of a point lol
body legs boots vest helmet implant chip
say there all for energy
say there all 0.5
then the bonus would be 5-6 points =z n so on
your trying to say armour doesnt give 50 energy when it says it does. it gives 49.5<->50.49 ?
Basically thats what it boils down to yes..
Just because 2 different items say the same thing, doesn't mean they're "exactly" the same. This is especially true if the items are 1-2 TL's off from each other, as one may be 49.5 while the other is 50.49, which is almost a 1 point difference, which works out to roughly 0.5% towards the calc to determine your resistance.
When 100% armor equals 76% resistance that 0.5% of armor variance means 0.38% off resistance dropping you to 75.62%. Spread that across the 5 pieces of armor and an implant chip and you're now down to 73.72%
Thats 2.28 more damage for every 100dmg you're hit with.
NewAgePirates
09-02-06, 02:05
"The bigger the better"
i wouldn't mind having decimals ingame, beats being able to see what points are doing. Since you've brought up this issue, i was selling a bunch of shelters to a vendor on a barterer while i still have SI left. I noticed that every 1-2 seconds each shelter could be sold for slightly more, never knew that the game worked in decimals like that.
Dribble Joy
09-02-06, 22:51
Big or small numbers don't amtter to the player, but extra calulations by the client or server won't help.
When the system is complex it will require a large range to take into account all of the different complexities.
Big or small numbers don't amtter to the player, but extra calulations by the client or server won't help. except that it's already doing the calculations, but it's just not showing decimals so it's not extra calculations
Dribble Joy
10-02-06, 17:08
If the numbers used are big, but the required display numbers are small, then either the server or the client has to reduce them.
Basically thats what it boils down to yes..
Just because 2 different items say the same thing, doesn\'t mean they\'re \"exactly\" the same. This is especially true if the items are 1-2 TL\'s off from each other, as one may be 49.5 while the other is 50.49, which is almost a 1 point difference, which works out to roughly 0.5% towards the calc to determine your resistance.
When 100% armor equals 76% resistance that 0.5% of armor variance means 0.38% off resistance dropping you to 75.62%. Spread that across the 5 pieces of armor and an implant chip and you\'re now down to 73.72%
Thats 2.28 more damage for every 100dmg you\'re hit with.
¬_¬ crap...
in that case please add decimals... my setup is realy improtant to me
Remember Rustot's site ? He had all the decimal values of everything in game listed. It worried a few people that he would use such rigorous testing to discover all those values, when really he decompiled the code to get all his information. I think - don't quote me, wouldn't want to get anyone in trouble.
So yea, the decimals have always been there.
If the numbers used are big, but the required display numbers are small, then either the server or the client has to reduce them.
The numbers are "floats" to the engine and contain the decimal places. The client shows them as "integers" which automatically rounds off the decimal. You could call that one calculation right there and its done client side.
Changing the system to show decimals to the players would just mean changing the "type" of the variable the info is stored in. integer --> float.
Decimals are ugly though, hence why most prefer just to use larger numbers.
So just make the integer large enough for the difference to be as percise as possible?
Meh, I'd still prefer decimals at the float. It's not like we're braindead to second elementary mathematics.
Hold on a sec, ok.
All basic stuff about data types here floats and ints etc, thats all fine but one thing.
The client doesnt actually handle *all* its data as ints and the server handles *all* as floats (As far as regards damage, resist calcs etc) because surely the system then doesnt work quite as expected ?
What im saying is , you know when you have a calcualation to do on a calculator, and its part of a reasonably large equation. You get out your calculator, and you do a few chunks at a time, rewriting the equation with the worked out parts each time. So say it was (if you can visualise this) - 5+(7.55654652353464 + 3)/5. You start by saying well, 7.55654652353464 + 3, thats 10.55654652353464 But you no longer keep that degree of accuracy - instead writing the equation again as : 5+10/5. As humans we do this for simplicity, the client however, would do this because its data type is int, therefore it will not save any decimals. The end result is now different to what it would have been had you worked this out in one step.
In terms of the client and the server, not all calcs can be worked out in one stage because there is data required from both parties, thus, if at any point the client works something out, the accuracy of the calculation is lost , introducing extra error.
I would *presume* just the display system handles the numbers as integers though right, and keeps any data calculations are done on in float format ? (This is my question really) From my programming experience it would be odd to pass information around a system using different types.
The effect of this, if it does actually exist (and really id need to see the source to tell) would probably be pretty negligable, a few % at the very worst. (The effect of course of a small error, in a very big/sensitive calculation can become huge - try things like exponential functions, not that I think NC involves anything like that ?)
Dribble Joy
11-02-06, 18:33
I would *presume* just the display system handles the numbers as integers though right, and keeps any data calculations are done on in float format ? (This is my question really) From my programming experience it would be odd to pass information around a system using different types.
Afaik, this is the case, the actual performance cals are done on the float, while the display reduces them to ints.
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