View Full Version : The PSI vs TECH Balance
Firstly - Stealth:
http://www.synergyxr.net/fn/images/stealth.gif
It should have it's own icon by now, it's hardly a PSI effect.
Secondly - Damage Boost:
Awhile back I posted a random idea about PE's and Damage Boosting (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?t=103521). Well, I've given this idea some more thought after spending some time in the DoY Tunnels last night. We had a PPU, an APU, a Tank, and a PE. What worked really well was having the PE doing all the damage boosting. This led to more thought...
What if we remove the PSI Spell "Damage Boost". PPUs and APUs already have the best Defense and Offense (respectively) - is a Damage Modifier really something that they also need on their side?
I'm proposing, that if the game ever gets balanced, perhaps address the huge "PSI vs Tech" unbalance. We have GoGuardians which store SOLID objects in a universally accessable location. We have GenReps which can tear our genes apart and reassemble them somewhere else. We have Tools that can hide our entire meatsack in a blue cloud... Yet we rely on PSI Manipulation for just about everything in PvP... heals, defenses, boosts, offenses, debuffs, etc...
Not all of these things really make sense in a Psionic world. Heal... sure. Shelter/Deflector... sure. Sanctums... sure. But two things I don't get:
Paralysis - which negatively impacts the body but is still a PASSIVE module?
Damage Boost - which ADDS damage to a target...
Things of this nature should be inflicted by things of a TECHNICAL nature, not PSIONIC!
http://www.synergyxr.net/fn/images/techman.gif
Introduce a new series of weapons/items that have Hightech & Intellgence requirements (just like the stealth tools):
Bio-Disruptor MK I - TL 50
INT = 50 T-C = 50
Will add one non-stackable "Bio-Disruption" Effect to a target
Bio-Disruptor MK II - TL 75
INT = 75 T-C = 75
Will add one non-stackable "Bio-Disruption" Effect to a target
Bio-Disruptor MK III - TL 100
INT = 100 T-C = 100
Will add one non-stackable "Bio-Disruption" Effect to a target
What is Bio-Disruption? It's damage boost :P MK I's effect would be equal to 1 DB. MK II's effect would be equal to 2 DBs, and the MK III would be equal to all 3 DB stacks (the same way they are now, with reductions per increased cast) - the Damage on the Tool/Weapon being calculated off your T-C and INT, capping at say 576%, This way mild damage boost is in the hands of the PEs & Spies and high-end damage boost is a tool of the Spies alone.
The way I see it, aside from the weapon damage balancing, character class influence is also way out of whack. For instance, when comparing Advantages/Disadvantages to having player classes:
CLASS PRO CON
PPU Heals,Rez,S/D,DB,Para Doesn't deal Damage
APU Fastest, Highest Dmg, No Reticle Needs PPU Coverage
Spy Can Stealth? Lower Dmg than APU, Reload Time, Aiming Reticle
Tank Can take more Dmg Lower Dmg than APU, Reload Time, Aiming Reticle
PE Decent PSI Defense? Lower Dmg than most classes, Reload Time, Aiming Reticle
I think that pretty much sums it up. Weapon-weilding classes are basically obsolete when there are APU Attack Modules. Why curse yourself with a reticle? and reload times? and lower, slower damage? and required Line-of-Sight? There pretty much is NO reason to, aside from "guns are cool", which is really an irrelevant argument to the idea of in-game PvP. Another big problem is that there is no REASON to use other classes!
However, if the Tech vs PSI topic were slightly more balanced, you could add some reasons to making a Spy or PE a true advantage to have on the playing field.
What if Tanks had an WoC Force/Pierce weapon, similar to a gat or MR drone that 'ignored' Deflectors? Or a larger weapon that fired cannon balls, similar to a Maladiction, that could 'break' Deflector - so being hit by it would start a debuff counter similar to being hit with a Mosquito Drone?
Add reasons to having other classes into PvP and I think the 'Monk-o-cron' ideal just might fade away. I personally think there should be another pool in addition to PSI, Stamina, and Health...
Capacitance: A measure of the amount of electric charge stored (or separated) for a given electric potential.
Then base an entire line of TECH weapons/tools/etc off of that pool. Monks derive thier power from PSI, Spies from TECH, Tanks from pure Firepower, and PEs get to dip their hands into each one a little bit...
But that's a post for another time ;)
Good ideas, I think the bio disrupter should also have "class: spy, pe" though.
ATM, there is no difference between 1 DB and multiple DBs (and the "3 DBs to max damage" thing is a myth too...) STill, stopping everyone being completely reliant on psi would be nice.
Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 00:53
I'd rather look at what DB does for PvP and whether who should be carrying it at all, in whatever form.
I still say take it away from the combat classes, either you balance them with DB solo (where they will loose out in team PvP), or give it to the support classes only. This would also simplify things and allow PPUs to act more of the fighter-enhancer they should be.
A similar DB (bio-disruption or whatever) could be given to pure hackers to help in a team arena outside HN.
Apocalypsox
27-01-06, 00:57
i love you FN- just make sure the Bio Disruptor has some good range- or it will be useless to most spys as most of them use rifles to range. a Bio Disruptor and a silent hunter would not work to well...
Now my Idea.
Nanobots. the Bio Disruptor would have to be a nanobot effect, and the Storyline says there are nanobots, but Why do we have no passive/offensive Nanobot items? why cant we atleast put a nanobot heal on someone? (i continue my rant from a thread a while back about this)
ATM, there is no difference between 1 DB and multiple DBs (and the "3 DBs to max damage" thing is a myth too...) STill, stopping everyone being completely reliant on psi would be nice.
its not a myth. damage boost stacks on mobs, but not on players.
its not a myth. damage boost stacks on mobs, but not on players.
I stated the 1x,2x,3x factor for the purpose of comparison to the existing DB in the PvM realm. For Bio-Disruption, I was envisioning something like shorter reload times, faster RoF, and/or a % difference at cap for the TL scaling. (i.e. TL 50 when capped would increase damage by 25% , TL 75 when capped would increase by 30%, TL 100 when capped would increase by 35% - or something to that effect)
Then you'll also have your WOC INT 1 Illegal Bio-Disruptor that does 40%, WOC INT 2 45%, and so on :)
So if you see a WOC INT 3 Spy/PE in your fight, lookout for double damage, hehe
its not a myth. damage boost stacks on mobs, but not on players.
Oh, it stacks alright. But its not as simple as "3 DBs maxes damage boost"
not sure what you mean .. 3 stacks of dam boost is the maximum in PvM.
@FN: I'm against WoC stuff thats needed for PvP. the reason for that may be that my PE still only has about 14 million dex exp, and won't reach WoC 1 before the year 2010. I play neocron to have fun, not to spend the few hours I have to play in fucking caves to level to WoC 5.
Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 02:22
not sure what you mean .. 3 stacks of dam boost is the maximum in PvM.
Nah, each boost adds a cirtain dmg increase, my PE has to DB a WB 4 times rapidly to get full dmg. If you are slow, the time between DBs lowers the cumulative effect.
not sure what you mean .. 3 stacks of dam boost is the maximum in PvM.
Nope, sometimes its less, sometimes its more. Its related to the level of the mob and the %damage on a damage boost. I can provide fraps evidence if you really don't believe me.
interesting, didnt know/notice that. will test it tomorrow.
arrrr! me want nano heal!
id rather we have more tech stuff then psi :)
great thread, and ideas as always - five stars
great thread, and ideas as always - five stars
No deying FN knows his stuff when it comes to awesome ideas. ALthough the "reduce every class's complete reliance on psi" isnt a new idea.
would love to see tganks get a little something something as well
and as for parashock hmm giving any class that would make them overpowered imagine a spy parashock then slasher u ouch
maybee make it so the spy is liek when he is in stealth cannot do anything while hes keeping the target shocked or remove it completely :P
the pes can damage boots only is a really good idea would make em usefull in op fights as well
and i repeat apus i think are not overpowered u give em a reticle and they will be so far less then any other class becourse of their con (this solo) i agree tho that something will have to be done about the apu/ppu teamage
Scaramanga
27-01-06, 12:23
@FN: I'm against WoC stuff thats needed for PvP. the reason for that may be that my PE still only has about 14 million dex exp, and won't reach WoC 1 before the year 2010. I play neocron to have fun, not to spend the few hours I have to play in fucking caves to level to WoC 5.
/signed
EDIT; Love the other ideas though :)
its the frist good idea that isnt a *nerf monks* your idea just brings the other classes to the same level and make tanks spys pes good in PVP. Like it ;)
Dargeshaad
27-01-06, 12:53
@FN: I'm against WoC stuff thats needed for PvP. the reason for that may be that my PE still only has about 14 million dex exp, and won't reach WoC 1 before the year 2010. I play neocron to have fun, not to spend the few hours I have to play in fucking caves to level to WoC 5.
Couldn't agree more, WoC shouldn't be a requirement to PvP
Bugs Gunny
27-01-06, 13:12
When i go on a normal warbot hunting trip with a tl92 i rake in between 2-4 million dex xp on my pe. (which i usualy spend most loming to different setups)
Now when you want to powerlevel a pe, start droning in the graves or even better, regants.
You can fully cap a spy droning in a week, now a pe or spy to woc, do it in 14 days in those places.
Pes level dex at a rate of about 80% of a spy using the same weapon.
Going with that line of thought, we should eliminate all rare weapons, as people with an artifact rare weapon spend weeks hunting techs for them, giving them a distinct edge in setups over a person using a nonrare weapon.
Also maybe remove the need to level a char to 100 in his main stats? Most people spend the same time or longer doing this so they can be pvp ready.
But i do like the ideas put forward by the threadstarter.
I payed 200k for my first own rare weapon, namely a 2slot Wyatt Earp. I've killed lots of people with this weapon, and would still do if I hadn't lost it some days ago due to fucked up soullight. I've bought another Wyatt Earp for 300k, and go on killing people with it. none of these two weapons is artifact - because you dont need artifact rares to kill people. it doesnt matter much if your damage is 114% or 120%.
200/300k you get after hunting doomreapers for an hour and selling the rareparts.
something like a damage boost that doubles the damage your opponent takes is a _completely_ different story than a few % on a weapon.
to cap dex on my PE I need about 11 mio exp.
for WoC 1 I need 260 mios. and thats only WoC 1.
there's a _slight_ difference there, I hope you can see it.
and I'm not willing to lom my character to drones because you can easily level with them. I want to play a pistol PE, so thats what I'm playing.
edit: 2 mios for a wb hunting trip. thats about 125 trips to reach WoC 1. so I'd eventually have WoC5 in what, 20 years? granted I dont hunt warbots, or anything else for that matter. if I have enough cash for drugs, got my armor and spells (all none slotted, or max 1 slot) and a wyatt earp or judge, I'm set, and do what I like about this game: fight other players, talk to other players/rp.
Bugs Gunny
27-01-06, 13:37
Hey, you chose to play a char that is combatready and near capped in 9 hours and then compare the leveling to a spy, that needs a massive grind to cap. 24 million versus 160 million.
Well, WOC kind of evens out the discrepancies between a spy and pe's leveling.
I didnt even mention spies. I took your numbers (from your PE) and commented on that.
edit:
Most people spend the same time or longer doing this so they can be pvp ready.you wanna make people level even longer (3,4 times as long, or even more, dunno how much exp you need for WoC5) so they can be PvP ready? I don't.
Neocron is all about PvP. not really couraging for a noob if you tell him 'hey pal, welcome to neocron, talk to you again in 2 years - then we can start fighting other players".
Bugs Gunny
27-01-06, 13:54
How would it be fair if a pe can level to woc at say... 50mil total exp and a spy has to go to a total of 260mil?
When you're going to powerlevel a spy do you go on warbot hunting trips?
And the hardcore pvpers all get weapons made untill they get an artifact one, since that allows them to spec certain points to a specified value that gives better runspeed or better defences. For instance i'd never be able to pull of being a combat slasher spy, who hacks 115, pokes 115 and drives a quad if i wasn't using a fully arti slasher.
You don't get an arti slasher for 300k......
Sure, everyone can go talk, have fun and fool around in pvp a bit, but for those who play for pvp as a major part, it's about finetuning a murdering machine. The type of pe you describe is the one that usualy takes almost double the dammage from a weapon compared to a combattuned pe.
And i'm not kidding, i've seen a slasher pe take 61 from a xbow shot compared to 38 from the same kind of pe with a well thought out setup.
Currently Damage Boost is needed.
That is the problem with it. For PEs in duals it is what decides the fight. Anti DB drugs don't help, runners just keep casting it.
I believe removing the required from pvp is what is important.
What about making the new damage boost increase psi damage taken?
Teamwork and variety.
Things which are so useful and accepted that they become required are repetitive and demanding.
And the hardcore pvpers all get weapons made untill they get an artifact one [...] The type of pe you describe is the one that usualy takes almost double the dammage from a weapon compared to a combattuned pe.
so I'm not a "hardcore PvPer", and "just fooling around" huh? maybe you should talk to some people I fought and come back to me then.
by the way, I take 39 damage from a capped xbow, with my better shelter at 70% damage straight from the psi shop.
How would it be fair if a pe can level to woc at say... 50mil total exp and a spy has to go to a total of 260mil?
noone said it would. I never said you should lower the exp req for PEs. I dont want WoC to be a requirement for ANYONE, not for PEs, not for spies, not for tanks, not for monkeys.
Bugs Gunny
27-01-06, 14:13
It's a date.
And who ever said it's a requirement?
You choose to use a wyat earp in pvp, where a druggie slasher pe will usualy have a seriouse edge towards you. Is going for slasher pe a requirement for you to pvp?
I also use judge. and I could use a slasher as well, with 1 or 2 slots, and everyone with his amazing 5slot weapon would only have a _slight_ edge over me. nothing like taking 200% damage instead of 100%. all I wanted to say is you dont _need_ to spend _weeks_ to get a weapon that allows you to PvP effectively.
its a date? what do you mean? you wanna fight me, and if I lose all my arguments are automatically invalid? I think you didnt really get what I wanted to say. I never said "me > everyone", I was just pointing out that I'm not someone who "fools around in PvP from time to time" and doesnt know how to setup his character.
Bugs Gunny
27-01-06, 14:28
Nope, just felt like dueling a wyat earp using pe that can also use slasher and gets 39 per shot from using a storebought shelter.
I would need to change one implant if I want to use a slasher. and wear PA, which I normally dont do.
I would fight you with my judge (which also is not artifact), my earp is mostly used on monkeys. whats your name on mars?
anyway, this is quite offtopic. if you want to comment on my arguments feel free to do so, if you wanna duel me drop me a pm.
and yes, using a slasher (or xbow or exec) in PvP I'd say is a requirement if you fight top players - the difference is, you can fulfill this requirement quite easy, unlike leveling to WoC5.
Though i like the idea, it would imbalance PEs and spies. Pes can hardly spec 100 t-c where it's pretty easy for spies. Now taking into account that every spy is using the high end rares fully capped, giving them the ability to DB would just bring them way out of line.
Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 14:49
Though i like the idea, it would imbalance PEs and spies. Pes can hardly spec 100 t-c where it's pretty easy for spies. Now taking into account that every spy is using the high end rares fully capped, giving them the ability to DB would just bring them way out of line.
Which is why I'd preffer it for pure hackers.
Scaramanga
27-01-06, 18:38
When i go on a normal warbot hunting trip with a tl92 i rake in between 2-4 million dex xp on my pe. (which i usualy spend most loming to different setups)
Now when you want to powerlevel a pe, start droning in the graves or even better, regants.
You can fully cap a spy droning in a week, now a pe or spy to woc, do it in 14 days in those places.
Pes level dex at a rate of about 80% of a spy using the same weapon.
Going with that line of thought, we should eliminate all rare weapons, as people with an artifact rare weapon spend weeks hunting techs for them, giving them a distinct edge in setups over a person using a nonrare weapon.
Also maybe remove the need to level a char to 100 in his main stats? Most people spend the same time or longer doing this so they can be pvp ready.
But i do like the ideas put forward by the threadstarter.
I couldn't agree more. The game as a whole seems way too overcomplicated just for the sake of it. The whole faction system needs a rethink and the soullight and death penalty is all wrong too.
Be much better if they made all weapons standardised with same stats and mods, remove the con setups and relace them with just ablative armour (call it kevlar). Make the city vs city struggle back again and remove the mercs. Merge all anticity into the terrorist faction and make the Neocron factions into a counter terrorist force. We could then change the OPs into different maps and have set goals to complete or just kill all enemy forces.
These measures could be easily implemented with Evo 2.2 (might cost a bit of money to buy the Counterstike license though).
Though i like the idea, it would imbalance PEs and spies. Pes can hardly spec 100 t-c where it's pretty easy for spies. Now taking into account that every spy is using the high end rares fully capped, giving them the ability to DB would just bring them way out of line.
That's why there would be a TL50, 75, and 100 version. PE's are the "Jack of All Trades" - they're not SUPPOSED to be using the highest level of everything. They're supposed to have their hands in every thing, but the cost for having access to these things in never being able to excel in any single one. Low level stealth, barely rare weapons, and the TL50, maybe 75 Bio-Disruptor.
But maybe that's just me. I personally hate class requirements. I think PE's should be able to wear the lowest Melee PA and use the first level Melee Rares, same with H-C stuff. And be able to just barely use, but hardly cap, the blessed line of PSI spells *shrug*
That's why there would be a TL50, 75, and 100 version. PE's are the "Jack of All Trades" - they're not SUPPOSED to be using the highest level of everything. They're supposed to have their hands in every thing, but the cost for having access to these things in never being able to excel in any single one. Low level stealth, barely rare weapons, and the TL50, maybe 75 Bio-Disruptor.
But maybe that's just me. I personally hate class requirements. I think PE's should be able to wear the lowest Melee PA and use the first level Melee Rares, same with H-C stuff. And be able to just barely use, but hardly cap, the blessed line of PSI spells *shrug*
rofl, you have some fucked up ideas, PEs should get low end rares and BLESSED BUFFS as well as a low lvl stealth. Do you have any idea how god that would make them.
Also, you didn't respond to the point about spys. Since spys already cap their high tl weapons, giving them the highest lvl of fullcapt dmg boost would make them too strong.
Obsidian X
28-01-06, 16:43
I like this idea -FN-, theres probably some teething problems with it, but this is the kind of thinking KK should keep in mind when beginning the overhaul and balancing process.
Awesome ideas FN. The bio disruptance thing is great thinking. I really dont like that monks have access to all the essential tools for ganking.
I also like where u could go with the capacitance idea. Very interesting.
KK give FN a job.
Since Reakktor usually cause more problems than they solve (as Patch 154 shows), the easiest, skimpiest and less problematic option might be to lower the PPU and MST skill needed to use the Damage Boost slightly and just give it the PE and Spy class requirement. Personally I would rather use a spell than the equivalent of a tweaked Implant Tool to stick a Damage Boost on someone.
Unless it's made into a type of weapon that fires some sort of dart at the target (just an idea), requiring a line of sight, and of course having an aim reticle, I wouldn't mind it being in the form of a tool or weapon.
Parashock should be that way too in my opinion, since it doesn't seem to be getting any thought by Reakktor of being removed or made less pathetic than it currently is.
Edit: While i'm slightly going off on I'll say this:
Damage Blocker and Antishock drugs are useless to take at the moment. You take one, then you get immediately re-hit by the respective spell that your enemies buttplugging PPU stacked you with before you took the drug, ending up with a pile of drugflash at the end. Holy Para should completely wipe a PPU's psi pool, and the damage boost should completely waste 80 or so psi pool, which would be the equivalent of wiping out a PE's psi pool. There needs to be some sort of drawback for using it.
The anti-drugs should also add n seconds worth of not being able to be re-stacked by whatever type of anti-drug was taken, such as Para or Damage Boost.
Dribble Joy
10-03-06, 17:01
DB should not be availiable to combat classes. Even if they are balanced with them, it puts them at a severe disadvantage at team level.
Here is one more suggestion :
Maybe for the OP fights it should just be impossible to use Holy Heal on an OP zone? so we would have to play with blessed heal which would give less power to the apus low constitution and give advantage to tanks and PEs in OP fight?
Dunno just throwing it in...
Cya!
Dribble Joy
10-03-06, 17:39
Might help OP fights, wouldn't help PvP in other zones.
I'd rather a more comprehensive PvP solution was implemented.
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