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Holger Nathrath
26-01-06, 18:30
First I’d like to seize this opportunity to wish you all a happy new year. Even though it is kind of late for that. I hope we’ll manage to further improve Neocron for you.

I have to say we were quite surprised by the reactions to our last announcement concerning Evol 2.2. The general rejection of our plans for Neocron 2.2 encouraged us to rethink and reschedule said plans -but Evol2.2 has not been canceled. We will however work on balancing and bug fixing first, in cooperation with the community.

Especially the balancing will change quite a few things in Neocron, as we would like to basically rebuild large parts of the system. We are still evaluating what can be realistically implemented in that regard. We also realize that the most important opinions is that of the players. Therefore we will cooperate closely with the community. All the balancing related discussions will be conducted in a new forum, where we will also use polls to give you the opportunity to vote on specific points.

The Reakktor staff will actively participate in this forum to create a real exchange between community and developers. We are especially pleased to have Jason "Dirus" Lehman as liaison between the community and the Neocron development team. He has a lot of interesting ideas on the topic and will certainly participate in many discussions.

To allow you to try out and comment on changes, we will also open an official test server again.

So, we are inviting all of you to actively participate in this process and hope you will do so in a relatively benevolent and patient matter. It will definitely be difficult to please everyone, but we hope to make this a transparent process that will provide a positive result for everyone.

In the Evol 2.2 planfile we mentioned a major change in the sector of payment services. This change is still in the works and will not be affected by the delay of Evol 2.2.

sanityislost
26-01-06, 18:37
Sweet sounds good, thanx for the update dude. :D


SiL ..:..

cRazy-
26-01-06, 18:39
second post OmG

And yes, thanks for the update. Hopefully Dirus will be more successful as a community liason then the last few attempts (that ratboy guy for one).

Drake6k
26-01-06, 18:43
KK, well done! I think is just what everyone wanted.

I'm happy :)

Dirus
26-01-06, 18:47
Hopefully Dirus will be more successful as a community liason

I'm at a disadvantage since I can't read or write German, so I'm going to have to rely on others in that area.

As Holger stated tho, we're still working out whats feasable change wise, so there will most likely be no major news on most things till some of that is out of the way. No point in listing off a bunch of ideas just to find out it'd be more work to do then it justifies at this time.

cRazy-
26-01-06, 18:57
I'm at a disadvantage since I can't read or write German, so I'm going to have to rely on others in that area.

Thats possibly a better advantage for us English people, the last attempt at a community liason of some sort (like I said before Ratboy something or other) was a native German person being the English liason, and over time he was much more active on the German forums, we got left out.

Definatly need some wisely decided Liasons for both German and English communities who can work together.

Jagrfelm
26-01-06, 19:01
Ah, finally some good News. I look forward to see some of this balancing ingame.
I hope it'll be as good as it sounds.

Nidhogg
26-01-06, 19:18
Just to clarify things. I'm still here to ease the interface between the community and Reakktor with respect to the existing as is system, while Dirus will be managing the interface during the balancing effort on the to be system. There will still be plenty of non-balancing challenges that need to be attended to. ;)

I'm really excited about this initiative and I think it'll have a profound positive impact on the game for all of us. :)

N

/edit - @ Tratos, beat you to it. :p

Tratos
26-01-06, 19:19
The first thing i must say is. Thank you for reconsidering a test server so we can help track down more major bugs before they reach the main servers as with 2.1 and the patches following it this was the major thing that was of concern to the community especialy in regards to the problems with the Regants Legacy area and components involved with it like the problems which have cropped up with the Gaia mines and the genotoxic ammunition fiasco which seems to be solved now, thankfully.

You mention Dirus to be the liason between the developers and ReaKKtor, to my understanding Nidhogg was previously fulfilling this role - what will Nidhoggs roll now be within the development and management of Neocron and its community? (perhaps he can answer this himself). - Answered.

The news of major rebalancing sounds very promising and i hope that this will please alot of the community and get problems we currently have with the distribution of the community over various character classes to sensible levels throughout the available classes. When talking about rebuilding large parts of the system would you be able to give us a brief overview of what you would like to change even if it may turn out to be unfeasable in the future once the final picture has been decided?

Finally what you've said in regards to Neocron 2.2 as a whole im a bit confused, is the major rebalancing rework going to be part of 2.2 delivered at a later stage or could we unofficialy call this Neocron 2.1.1 and then once this is done you (ReaKKtor) will move onto the development of 2.2 delivered as two seperate packages over an extended time frame?

I look forward to seeing the new developments and hope everything goes smoothly - thanks for listening to the community.

EDIT: Seems my Nidhogg question was answered while i was typing by the man himself :p - so Dirus will be concentrating on passing on our balance related information while you will be managing the other aspects? e.g. content/additions/general enquires?

EDIT2: Damn you Nid :p

Bugs Gunny
26-01-06, 19:23
Just to clarify things. I'm still here to ease the interface between the community and Reakktor with respect to the existing as is system, while Dirus will be managing the interface during the balancing effort on the to be system. There will still be plenty of non-balancing challenges that need to be attended to. ;)

I'm really excited about this initiative and I think it'll have a profound positive impact on the game for all of us. :)

N

Yeah, we get it, he'll discuss things and you'll make us disappear for 7 days if we get out of line.

Nidhogg
26-01-06, 19:25
Yes, managing this process is going to require the skills of someone with highly detailed knowledge of the fundamentals of the game. I don't think anyone would disagree that Dirus is by far the best person to lead that effort. I'll just continue doing what I do (which is mainly fighting fires and banning people ;) )

N

calim
26-01-06, 19:40
Thank for listening and considering community ideas and needs !

Very good news !

Dargeshaad
26-01-06, 19:48
Sounds good, will definetly bring back some old players that were fed up with the current imbalance...thumbs up :)

kurai
26-01-06, 19:59
Good to see an indication that some of the issues are being looked at from a slightly different angle.

New content and artwork is certainly very welcome, but it's impact is shortlived. After a possibly surprisingly small time period it's all been seen and done, it's impact tails off and you are back with the core mechanics of gameplay. Then comes the realisation that the same old underlying problems are still there in full effect.

It might seem redundant to say it but the lifeblood of an MMORPG is ongoing subscription fees. All the advertising and eye candy in the world is just wasted effort if people don't stick around once the initial glitter has worn off.

giga191
26-01-06, 20:22
Yes, managing this process is going to require the skills of someone with highly detailed knowledge of the fundamentals of the game. I don't think anyone would disagree that Dirus is by far the best person to lead that effort.
N /signed

he seems to know what he's doing

Bishop Yutani
26-01-06, 20:30
Thanks!
Looking forward to the testing...

Riddle
26-01-06, 20:41
I welcome this announcement but as a suggestion Nid, I would ask that this update be put on the Game Launcher.

The reason is that it sounds like a LOT of MAJOR gameplay changes will be up for discussion and as such the whole player base should be aware not just the small percentage who surf the forum ;)

Would be good to draw in the major concensus.

I think once the core elements of this game are addressed i.e. Balance, bugs etc. you will have a solid playable neocron rather than Monkocron :rolleyes: you can tart up they way it looks later :D

Zheo
26-01-06, 21:03
We will however work on balancing and bug fixing first, in cooperation with the community.



By bugs do you mean the logon issues, city com, sync, inventery, bugs or do you mean an NPC in the wrong place, different people may have different views on what is classes as a bug... I would very much like to see the issues i stated fixed as im sure many would.

As for balancing, you WILL get alot of negative feed back "OK kk have nerfed us again, blah blah." You have to have a set target for what you concider balanced. EG: Can a PE kill a tank,? Can i spy? Should a tank beable to kill a ppu or apu or hybrid?

unreal
26-01-06, 21:09
Good to see an indication that some of the issues are being looked at from a slightly different angle.

New content and artwork is certainly very welcome, but it's impact is shortlived. After a possibly surprisingly small time period it's all been seen and done, it's impact tails off and you are back with the core mechanics of gameplay. Then comes the realisation that the same old underlying problems are still there in full effect.

It might seem redundant to say it but the lifeblood of an MMORPG is ongoing subscription fees. All the advertising and eye candy in the world is just wasted effort if people don't stick around once the initial glitter has worn off.I don't think anyone could have said it better. It's about time Reakktor have started to realise it. I hope there will be more of an effort to fix the bugs than balance things, a larger majority of people don't stop playing the game because of monk-o-cron, they stop playing the game because they can't pay to a trustworthy source, and because of the infinite amount of gameplay affecting bugs that occur. Balancing classes shouldn't be THAT much effort to begin with, it's just that it takes Reakktor so damn long.

In the coming months I hope there's not going to be an insane amount of Polls. There shouldn't really be a need for having THAT many of them. Both the English and German forums offer plenty of fodder mentioned in the last few months to show how the results of certain polls would be.

Above all else, they'll just be an excuse to slow progress down by having to give deadlines before the thread/polls in question are closed. For the amount of customers that view the forums, they'll be biased responses in most cases anyway. On one hand you'll have the wiser people who know something should be done about a particular issue (such as Holy Para), and on the other hand will be the opposite, the ones who think they can't play without it either being there, or being modified quite a bit.

I'm really glad to see Reakktor have made a statement like this though. At least some of the cogs are working and going round properly back there. Well done, I hope. :)

PS. Remove smoke from Vehicles (although my bad FPS might also be to do with the sound as well from what I've seen. When in the wastelands and the vehicle sounds just randomly get muted, the FPS seems to go fairly decent.), besides, shouldn't Vehicles in the CyberPunk age not have to use such medievil propulsion methods that include burning a load of coal? ;)

Jagrfelm
26-01-06, 21:18
Short Question:
More small Patches with some little fixes in them, or a bigger Patch with all Fixes (Evo)??

Inchenzo
26-01-06, 21:57
Normally i would welcome this good news, i even took some time to ponder about this news.
I just can't shed the feeling that this could go horribly wrong, and this whole game could change drasticly. I just hope this is going to be a good thing.

Here's crossing my fingers.

Bugs Gunny
26-01-06, 22:09
The only thing that realy bothers me is that the guy who is on the ballancing thing says things like "ppus are not the problem" and that the tl51 psi attack2 spell is not overpowered......

Foo
26-01-06, 22:19
good news i hope , sounds like your gonna listen to us for a change !.
I'll be helping on the test server to help make this game alot more enjoyable thats for sure.

Dirus
26-01-06, 22:22
The only thing that realy bothers me is that the guy who is on the ballancing thing says things like "ppus are not the problem" and that the tl51 psi attack2 spell is not overpowered......

You're not seeing the whole picture the way I do. Those are individual issues that are only an issue due to a fault in the mechanics. I'm not going to concentrate on fixing the "effects", but rather the "cause". In a way I don't care that PPU's are overpowered.. I care about what causes them to be overpowered. Any and all Defense related buffs are an issue, whether is from a PE, Spy, Tank or PPU.. The only reason PPU's get singled out is that they take them to the next level. The way I want to set things up is that no matter what gets done, the items cannot ever pass that point.

The way the current system works constantly leads to new imbalances everytime something is added or changed.

l8m0n
26-01-06, 22:31
yay test server, so test server events going to happen again?

Dirus
26-01-06, 22:34
yay test server, so test server events going to happen again?

The test Server will most likely not be like the last one running 24/7. But be run only when needed.

Tratos
26-01-06, 22:38
Dirus, any idea on when we will see the new discussion forum and the test server?

Neally
26-01-06, 22:45
Will that testserver replace Neptune ?..

Marx
26-01-06, 22:49
Good to see the prospect of reakktor/playerbase cooperation rearing its head again.

XaNToR
26-01-06, 22:58
The way the current system works constantly leads to new imbalances everytime something is added or changed.


See, PPU was thrown in with the sudden change from epu to mst, new ppu spells were added that went above tl 48 without any testing, if there is no radical change (f.e. removing PPU, or resetting verry old status) there wont be much chance to do anything.

Many possibilities have been discussed already, some would lead to even more PPUs, some would make him unplayable, soft changes wouldnt do much. I hope u'll also find the only possible solution for balance...

CMaster
27-01-06, 00:49
I'd like to ask Dirus how he plans to communicate with people about what is perceived as the problem, what balances would be suitable etc.

Xaru
27-01-06, 01:00
I like to hear, that the balncing is going to be addressed. Especially with Lupus doing it ;) I hope, that the communication with the community will be helpful, to rebalance the system. But please, do not forget to look at the RP elements of the game. They need alot of work aswell.

Regards
Xaru

xyl_az
27-01-06, 01:07
i'm glad to hear all of this, but i dont believe in words...

so i'll wait and see

Toilet-Duck
27-01-06, 01:57
Any idea when the new payment system will be announced? Will it be with the evo 2.2 update?

Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 02:08
As much as I welcome this, I would like to say that balancing efforts need not necessarily include whole sale reworks of the game's systems. Plenty of what is wrong can be fixed with small changes to what we have now.

Dirus
27-01-06, 02:28
As much as I welcome this, I would like to say that balancing efforts need not necessarily include whole sale reworks of the game's systems. Plenty of what is wrong can be fixed with small changes to what we have now.

Thats true in some areas, however the push is also to adding expandability to the system. More dynamic then static.

BlackDove
27-01-06, 02:30
I hope you'll be able to identify the core problem to the players.

Guesswork didn't work for all these years, I think you'll have to finally drop the ball and tell us exactly what's wrong with it so we can choose and form reasonable conclusions.

However, regardless of the way you go about it, it's good to know that finally you're going to actively be working on it. This should've been a priority for a looooooooooong looooooooooooooong time, and it's pretty good to finally see it happen.

Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 03:19
Thats true in some areas, however the push is also to adding expandability to the system. More dynamic then static.
Like changing the hair code size so more than 8 can be chosen from? ;)

On a more serious note (in a similar vein as I will probably continue when these consultations arise); My main concern is that of variation and open ended options, like the current skill system, it's too restrictive, creates 'optimal' setups/weapons and renders others pointless. I would prefer a return (of sorts) to the old model, which forced you to make desicions about all aspects of a char, forced you to sacrifice one thing for another and promoted playing a style you wanted.

One thing I would like is a separation of item stats from each other. So many times has one weapon been changed and a myriad of others being changed with it.

MrTrip
27-01-06, 09:13
Will that testserver replace Neptune ?..


It should.

Neptune was at most, a failure. :( I played, capped, left, nobody around to really play with, and as soon as you pulled your LE, you were ********** by the mob of players who went searching for people to kill, because NOBODY else pulled their LE.

*shrugs*

At least 2.2 will be tested this time by the community, instead of just being pushed on us.

KK IS LISTENING PEOPLE! :D :D Lets not ruin this mmkay?

Deus Ex Machina
27-01-06, 12:50
I'm not going to concentrate on fixing the "effects", but rather the "cause". In a way I don't care that PPU's are overpowered.. I care about what causes them to be overpowered.

Wise Words!
Such words make one feel its going to be good (Hope dies last)
If you at Reakktor can pull this one off the right way, I can imagine someone will put a bloody medal on you ;)

:angel:

Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 13:28
We just have to hope he does actually find the cause and not what may appear to be the cause.

//edit
No offence meant, I am just really worried that this great opportunity to fix the game could be an utter distaster :p.

msdong
27-01-06, 13:36
just a question on the changer of priorities.
you now change the balance of runners in the actual world and leave the OP war system alone. isnt it dangerous that with the new system you need to change in User Roles of the different classes again ?

or do you plan the slow development of OP war in that Process too ?

Brammers
27-01-06, 13:40
First thing lets get the bad thing out of the way. To whoever is maintaining the launcher page, why isn't this important news update on the launcher page? Why does it has to be the community to tell you to put important news like this up nearly every time? Let me remind you, not everyone reads the forums every day, and the first thing any player see before playing neocron is the launcher page. The same thing can be said for Faction objectives announcement by Chenoa.

And now back to the news update, which is some very welcomed news.

I was one of those people who wasn't impressed (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1922301&postcount=133) with the original 2.2 plan file. I didn't put my reasons there, but it would have gone on the lines of Graphics and eye candy are good, but bugs and game mis-balance are bad, like everyone else.

If you can get some new graphics and content into 2.2, I'll treat that as a bonus, but any new bugs as a result of new content will be 2 big steps backwards - I hope the test server does address this problem. I'm looking to see what Dirus is going to come up with on re-balancing the whole game (Good luck!), and also I'm looking forward to the end of the same old nerf threads that I'm sick to death of seeing. (Well for now!)

Bugs Gunny
27-01-06, 13:42
I'm curious what it'll all do.
Soo many hours spent on finding the keys to con, flippoints etc, and then it probably all goes out the window again.
God... give us free loms then :-)

Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 13:45
Indeed, though the current system is a bit wierd and somewhat complex, it does and can work very well. Tweaking armour piece stats and other items could fix many problems.

Dirus
27-01-06, 14:41
Soo many hours spent on finding the keys to con, flippoints etc, and then it probably all goes out the window again.

Thats going to be one of the harder aspects. Making significant changes, while trying to keep the impact to a minimal.

Riddle
27-01-06, 14:47
Thats going to be one of the harder aspects. Making significant changes, while trying to keep the impact to a minimal.

With significant change which will most probably effect damage/Con etc. there would surely be a points Free up across all classes?

Hours of lomming to get it right again due to game changes would be a killer!

I suspect it won't just be tweaking here and there.

GET this on the launcher I truly believe some runners who don't read the forums would be highly interested in Polls etc. that will ultimately effect the overall game.

Again this is great news and i welcome any changes that will balance this game out :)

Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 14:53
I... hmmm I just dunno....

The current defence balance between the classes (while not perfect) isn't that bad, a while ago it was actually quite good. What I'd like to know is why a change is deemed necessary.
The system in place itself isn't really broken as I see it. Fixing things that are not broken is kinda wasteful, pointless and potentially damaging to the way the game plays.

Bugs Gunny
27-01-06, 15:04
The current system is about ballanced if you remove the ppu from the equation.
However in its core it is very flawed since heals will heal much more if head, torso and legs are dammaged.
Then add to that the fact that adding a ppu gives different levels of bonuses to different classes, where the poor frail apu becomes almost as strong as a tank, yet his dammageoutput is phenomenaly increased with the db.

I'm realy curious as to what system will replace the current one. I'd love to see more drivers and vehicles in opwars, and seeing all classes participate at taking ops.
Maybe not so specialised setups should be an option too.

Zeninja
27-01-06, 15:52
Will that testserver replace Neptune ?..It should.
Oh I see. What about Mercury then ?

Same useless shit as Neptune, at the very least difference that Neptune is worth a try because of its special rules offering an interesting alternative to other servers. Especially when some of us and/or KK came to put an effort on starting some punctal events there.

What does Mercury has to offer now ? Nothing else than a ghost town with the exact same rules as Terra and Mars. If any server had to be closed (which I don't support anyway, no matter if closing one would wrong 300 guys or only 3) then it should definately be Mercury, to be honest.

Okran
27-01-06, 16:13
Excellent news! I would like to see a forum asap for discussing balance.

The ability to foreign cast has always been fundamentaly the problem. A character setup should be only on the merits of what the character can do to him/herself, otherwise they rely upon the advantages another character has to bestow upon themselves (eg. a tank cannot cast shelter, but any other class can cast it upon him/her).

** If only there was a forum we could all discuss and post things like this in the proper place ;)

Selendor
27-01-06, 16:22
Good news on the announcement, important to listen to the community - just be carefuly not to listen to us all the time as some people shout louder than a silent majority!

Despite the balance initiatives (Monkocron certainly prevails today), I think the long-term bugs (there have been threads about them recently) should be attacked even above this.

Also, since a large majority of players are capped (not WOC) the end game (Op wars, faction politics, skirmish zones) should be your primary focus in any re-balance.

Good luck with this latest approach.

Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 16:50
However in its core it is very flawed since heals will heal much more if head, torso and legs are dammaged.
This kind of problem I very much want fixing, along with the problems behind beam/ray and projectile weapon locational dmg.

Tratos
27-01-06, 17:47
Many people have said that bug fixing should be a greater priority than even this but my hope for this rework which has been said will rewrite some systems in the game will hopefully get rid of alot of the bugs which linger in the old code if great care and attention is paid - hopefully the game in regards to PvP will be a much less buggy experience as a whole e.g. point systems not allowing the use of weapons under certian circumstances etc etc.

I do hope that this rework will be successful and im sure if there are large consequences to it but it works well and all classes can easily engage in PvP with almost any other setup the majority of the community will be pretty damn pleased but if there are large changes which require setups to be changed from the bottom up all skill points need to be released for us to respec, then people who's setups are changed so they cant do what they could can change to something better and still giving people the chance to keep their set ups by simply chucking the points back in.

In regards to the discussion forum for 2.2 i hope that it will have some sort of moderation check out if the community is able to start topics there and not just reply (Like this forum) to prevent repeated discussions taking place and hordes of threads on the same topic but with the tinyest changes.

xyl_az
27-01-06, 19:18
Since someone mentioned it already... what about Neptune? There are still some people playing there (me, for example) and they are all waiting for neccesary fixes (removing LEs...).
Any info would be much appreciated (because i dont know if i should start debating neptune case again or is it already lost cause, as some people - who obviously dont play there - would like to claim)

Digital-Talios
27-01-06, 20:43
If Neptune is closed I truly feel I have no more use for Neocron. Its great to be able to cap a guy in realitvily little time which works great with my time schedule.

I think Neptune closure would be the final nail in the coffin of FREs, crashes, infinite synchs, relogs, general bugs, and all the rest...

But other then that I think its great to have a dialogue with someone from KK... unlike my unanswered 2 forum posts and 2 PMs about Neptune event support :rolleyes:

Koshinn
27-01-06, 21:37
Thats going to be one of the harder aspects. Making significant changes, while trying to keep the impact to a minimal.
Back in NC1, at one point a class was changed so much (I believe it was monks, but I don't remember) that all their class points were refunded, as if they were lommed completely without the xp loss. Actually I'm pretty sure it was monks. Anyway, if it was done before, you can do it again. :angel:

Digital-Talios
27-01-06, 21:52
Wasnt this when they tried to nerf Hybrids? Cant remember for certain. I remember someone saying that they saw alot of monks hanging out in P1 lomming so maybe not.

Dirus
27-01-06, 21:59
What I'd like to know is why a change is deemed necessary.

It all depends really, in some case the players may not see the need for something to be changed, but it may be linked to another area that does need to be changed.


I'm realy curious as to what system will replace the current one. I'd love to see more drivers and vehicles in opwars, and seeing all classes participate at taking ops.

Maybe not so specialised setups should be an option too.

Vehicles are another area I have my sights set on in the balance work.

Not so specilised setups are somewhat of an issue. You can't have it so one class can do everything all at once. The issue of everyone using the exact same items all the time can be dealt with easily tho.


Back in NC1, at one point a class was changed so much (I believe it was monks, but I don't remember) that all their class points were refunded, as if they were lommed completely without the xp loss. Actually I'm pretty sure it was monks. Anyway, if it was done before, you can do it again.

The issue is not so much skill points, but items as well. I'll get into that more later tho.

For the most part, not much info can be given on whats going ot be done, or what were thinking of doing. Once the new forums are up then more detail info will be given, as some desicions require feedback before anything is looked into.

Hitman Mal
27-01-06, 22:26
thanks for the updates and that sounds cool :)

Dribble Joy
27-01-06, 22:26
It all depends really, in some case the players may not see the need for something to be changed, but it may be linked to another area that does need to be changed.
Cases like these should probably then be explained as such when community consultation on a subject is started. Knowing why something is going to be altered will greatly help get people on side. Clearly I would like things to remain as they are, but with the inter dependancy (like weapons) removed.

giga191
28-01-06, 00:22
Cases like these should probably then be explained as such when community consultation on a subject is started. Knowing why something is going to be altered will greatly help get people on side. Clearly I would like things to remain as they are, but with the inter dependancy (like weapons) removed. i agree to some extent, but i think they should be careful about saying too much about how the game mechanics work

Scaramanga
28-01-06, 02:51
Definitely another step in the right direction.

jini
28-01-06, 12:23
Good news on the announcement, important to listen to the community - just be carefuly not to listen to us all the time as some people shout louder than a silent majority!
I have isolated this, from Selendor's constructive remarks. I just found the time to read this announcement and I'm a bit worried. It seems to me that Reakktor is trying to navigate in the ungry ocean without a compass. I really hope you will soon find a way, I do hope in Dirus, I allways believed that 6 months time for evo2.2 is a bit too much but you should also filter very carefully what most people in here tells you.

Nice idea the test server with selected availability, please dont reveal new context

Bugs Gunny
28-01-06, 13:05
I follow Dirus in his opinion that the only way to realy ballance pvp is to start all over.
You can get a workable thing with the current way, but there will allways be the effect ppu have on classes that differs. Even a blessed ppu and a fighter will take out 4-5 people when they know what they're doing.

Tratos
28-01-06, 13:17
I follow Dirus in his opinion that the only way to realy ballance pvp is to start all over.
Thats the stance im taking aswell - even though the new system might well annoy a few people and even make people leave as they dont like the changes the new system will be in better shape and be correct rather than a crippled system with more bandaids than system. As well with a fresh new system like Dirus said it can be expanded which sounds good to me as it creates the ability to future proof the game and could lead to better introductions and developents later on.

Im not getting my hopes up for this but i think KK will do a good job of it and if my hopes aint set to high and they do pull it off - i'll have more to be pleased about.

RogerRamjet
28-01-06, 13:31
Are the Ray of God, Pain Easer, and Libby going to be boosted? :p

Please say yes.

Dribble Joy
28-01-06, 14:01
'Beam/ray weapons fixed and dmg values tweaked' is more likely.

As for PPUs, they indeed do need to be taken back to fundamentals, but that does not necessarily mean a wholesale change in the game mechanics. All of the changes that (as I see it) need to be done, could easily be done within the current capabilities of the item and spell affect engine. It would simply be a matter of changing values and what effect a spell has on a player.

Bugs Gunny
28-01-06, 14:05
I'm not gonna say anything about ballance anymore before i know what the core rules for the new system are, then things have to be tested, consetups, dammagetesting, DOT etc etc.

JohnGalt
28-01-06, 15:41
I have played NC-1 and now I play NC-2. No I was not on the almighty beta- test server and I do not think that is such a big deal if you were.

I see changes but not the main change I had hoped for. You still have allot of aggression between players, sure through some modifications you have reduced player kills/noob kills, Tanks are still weaker than PSI still and cannot with stand the bombardment a PSI can in enemy territory, there is more but I want to get to my point.

I believe the game needs to have a common enemy that takes outposts from any faction, which will require common efforts to defend against. This enemy cannot be joined or communicated with it has one goal destruction of the life as we know it on the NC-planets. Allien occupied posts can be fought for and won back but as long as the Ailen enemy owns it all players have access to its services, full access.

Clans should also be allowed to add individual players to there occupied post privileges who are not clan members. Such as the use of a GR or the ability to use the comm.. Any negative aggression by a guest will automatically revoke the privileges allowed by that clan till reviewed.

This is the type of interaction that can create additional advantages to working together. My characters have some friends out there and trust can be earned. I want more alliances/advantages to loyality.

We need the ability to teleport to other worlds and form alliances with other clans to fight this common enemy. These particular alliances can encourage non-clan participation such a mercenaries for hire when called upon, and an inter planet chat channel where multiple planets can make special trade requests.

Administration has always been really good with bug fixing as far as I can see sure there are some problems that take more effort but there will always be bugs to be worked out.

To extend this development...

I do not like being confined to pre determined alliances and think I should be able to develop neutrality with any faction I want even if the effort is 1000 missions killing rats to have the sympathy/SL. If your characters SL drops below a pre set level or if your sump for that allianced clan falls below a preset level than the bond is broken and you will have to explain to the clan that offered u the privilege what happened, i.e. you kill a clan member you are allianced with.

In order to make this work there should be some sub-clan membership where with the right symp and SL an enemy clan can allow you to join as a limited member. This would allow limited access to places not allowed otherwise such as DOY and take allot of trust for any clan to approve.

To stop noob killing and player killing aggression you need to refocus the aggressions, what I see happening is just more control features being put in place and heading toward the same direction as a typical XBox i.e. you can only play the way the game wants you to play and not be as creative a make choices as I see the potential of this game offering. ATM we do have much more freedom of choice than any XBox but each control feature moves us closer to a fixed format instead of positive chaos.

I like this game very much, but the future is going to be competitive in this industry and story line, common causes that affect all players are what will drive the excitement.

If I have upset or aggravated anyone in this message it was not my intention to do so.
Respectfully,
JohnGalt

Obsidian X
28-01-06, 15:55
Interesting...I'm wondering what the rules/policies will be on the new Test Server - invite only/open to all - stuff like that...

Rabiator
28-01-06, 17:24
Then add to that the fact that adding a ppu gives different levels of bonuses to different classes, where the poor frail apu becomes almost as strong as a tank, yet his dammageoutput is phenomenaly increased with the db.
In this case, I think we have a mismatch between
-proportional increase in damage due to db for all damage dealers on one hand
-and fixed bonus for resist/health regeneration on the other hand, which will help the APU more than the tank who has plenty of resist/health anyway.

Maybe the resist boosters should give a bonus measured in percent of the runners' natural resist, and the efficiency of heal depend on the max. natural health of the runner. Then the tank would benefit a lot more from health and resist buffing than the APU, just as the APU benefits more from db today than the tank.

I am aware that this would be a major change, but since KK seems willing to try something drastic, this might be an option.

Which leaves us with the "problem" that a PPU/damage dealer team will win against 2 DDs. So Moncocron would not disappear completely. But that is a part of the game at a quite fundamental level:
If you include a healer/buffer class in a game, that class is wortwile to play only if a healer/DD team gets done more than a random team of 2 DDs. I believe this cannot be "fixed" without really drastic measures (like removing the PPU altogether).

Dribble Joy
28-01-06, 18:59
If we consider the ppu as an amplifier of fighter char's abilities, then DB (as a PPU only item) will boost all classes equally. 30% more dmg is still 30% of what you do, whether you are high offence/low defence or high defence/low offence is more or less irrelevant.

The unequal effect that PPUs have is mainly down to the shields, but simply removeing foreign cast will not solve the problems.

giga191
28-01-06, 21:17
i think they are making pistols short range

Dargeshaad
28-01-06, 21:57
i think they are making pistols short range
They would have to redo the way aiming works then, iirc aiming/reticle closure is tied to the max range of the weapon.
If they did I would applaud the idea since it would give more meaning to rifles and cannons could then be the middle ground inbetween pistols and rifles

giga191
28-01-06, 22:26
They would have to redo the way aiming works then, iirc aiming/reticle closure is tied to the max range of the weapon.
If they did I would applaud the idea since it would give more meaning to rifles and cannons could then be the middle ground inbetween pistols and rifles that's why i said it, thought it might be part of the game mechanics rework

unreal
28-01-06, 23:16
i think they are making pistols short rangePistols already ARE short range. I'd like to see you constantly snipe someone from way across the sector (moving target, not static, and even if the person was static, a bunch of bursts would miss, even more so if they're mobile) using a pistol.

Dribble Joy
28-01-06, 23:39
The max range of pistols is insane, especially given the skill reqs for them, no pistol should go above 50m.

giga191
28-01-06, 23:51
you can't snipe that far with rifles

xyl_az
29-01-06, 00:52
Pistols already ARE short range. I'd like to see you constantly snipe someone from way across the sector (moving target, not static, and even if the person was static, a bunch of bursts would miss, even more so if they're mobile) using a pistol.

and i would like to see you constantly do the same with rifles...

Nidhogg
29-01-06, 01:12
Please discuss the topic of the thread. If you want to discuss specific balancing ideas please do so in the Comm Talk forum. Thanks.

N

Rabiator
29-01-06, 01:20
If we consider the ppu as an amplifier of fighter char's abilities, then DB (as a PPU only item) will boost all classes equally. 30% more dmg is still 30% of what you do, whether you are high offence/low defence or high defence/low offence is more or less irrelevant.So far, so good. The problem is that the same does not apply to heal and resist boosters. A simplified example:
-A tank has 500 HP, an APU has only 250 HP.
-The PPU can heal each of them for 50 HP per second.
Then the tank gets back only 10% of his max. HP per second, but the APU 20%. The numbers in this example may be inaccurate, but I think the meaning is clear: a fixed bonus gives a greater percentage of improvement to a weak char.

A possible solution would be to move heal and resist boosters also to a percentage basis. Above example again:
-Each char gets 15% of his max. HP restored per second.
Then the APU gains only 37.5 HP per second, but the tank 75HP. Now you have a tank/PPU team that might be able to take on a APU/PPU team.

Dribble Joy
29-01-06, 02:02
It's not just proportional heal rates, it's whether a non PPU team can compete with a PPU team. Unless KK specifically want PPUs to be a necessity for team PvP, class effectiveness needs to be such that a team is effective regardless of the type of classes it contains. If PPU supported chars can heal at 10 times the rate as a non PPU supported char, then proportional healing will achieve nothing, PPUs will still give the teams they are included in a massive advantage, making their presence as absolute as it is now.

RentonDraines
29-01-06, 03:16
All I can say, is this is the kind of post I've been longing to hear for years. And it sounds like a ground-up revamp of some core systems, which imo are the ONLY way to fix so many issues in neocron. For the first time in a LONG TIME with this game, i'm actually going to hold my breath.

xyl_az
29-01-06, 12:08
So, once again, can we get some info about the neptune future?

I would like to know what are KK's intentions about this matter? Do they want to waste it or fix it? Or maybe they think everything's ok with neptune and theres no need for doing anything?

Due to the fact which most people would like to insinuate (that neptune is going down as the future testserver) i think most neptune players would like to get some answers...

Richard Slade
29-01-06, 12:41
If you pull off a good balance ( Aka remove buffing and make PPUs use 'PSI-constructed-turrets' and other things as their main thing ) I'll gladly buy you another batch of kinder.

Flub900
29-01-06, 22:28
i <3 the test server :)

Ivan Eres
30-01-06, 14:19
I'd like to see a bug reporting tool being built into the Neocron client, that reports all debug and system information automatically to kk after a crash or synchronisation error occurs.

Neocron is very sensitive to other apps and network traffic, most people are having problems because of that.

Sure, that's not as glamorous as the announcement of fancy rebalancing, but eliminating the bugs could help a lot.

unreal
30-01-06, 14:43
Clipping through the ground is a large inbalancement, especially when people know they're going to be doing it, and there's lots of other bugs around that have the same inbalancing effect. Sorting out these bugs or "features" will help a lot.

Ivan Eres
30-01-06, 16:09
I think clipping is a big issue, Unreal, especially because of the monks' ability to use their PSI through any obstacle.
The spell will hit no matter what's between the monk and the target. With the clipping issues noted by you a monk's able to kill somebody through a wall.
I'd like to see that clipping bug sorted out, too!

An automatic bug reporting tool can't catch these things, it's the player's task to report these kind of bugs.

An automatic bug reporting tool could maybe catch all the FRE's and Fatals, C++ Runtime Errors, CTDs, Synchronisation Errors, and Login Problems.

After a problem occured it could report all Debug / System / Driver / Network information to KK automatically.
The transmission of this data could be done when the client's being started next time. My hope is that this way these bugs can be found easier, and fixed.

npinchot
30-01-06, 21:43
[ edited ]

zii
30-01-06, 23:19
Oh I see. What about Mercury then ?

Same useless shit as Neptune, at the very least difference that Neptune is worth a try because of its special rules offering an interesting alternative to other servers. Especially when some of us and/or KK came to put an effort on starting some punctal events there.

What does Mercury has to offer now ? Nothing else than a ghost town with the exact same rules as Terra and Mars. If any server had to be closed (which I don't support anyway, no matter if closing one would wrong 300 guys or only 3) then it should definately be Mercury, to be honest.

When I'm playing I'm playing exclusivly on Neptune. I just cannot play at all for the moment.

Digital-Talios
31-01-06, 00:13
When I'm playing I'm playing exclusivly on Neptune. I just cannot play at all for the moment.

Yea me too. Ive been spoiled rotten by the server rules. I say improve Neptune but dont trash it...

pain_easer
03-02-06, 22:23
So .. when is the test server comming out then ?

Digital-Talios
03-02-06, 23:30
From my understanding it will only be used for upcomming patches then turned off.... another patch in is the works then the server will be used then when its finished it will be closed again.

Tratos
06-02-06, 13:48
From my understanding it will only be used for upcomming patches then turned off.... another patch in is the works then the server will be used then when its finished it will be closed again.
Thats i assume too, we'll see a patch, have a week or something to find out problems then they'll turn it off and fix the issues and then have another go, lol

Any news or an ETA on whats being considered/balance forum/test server?

Odin
06-02-06, 16:28
Thats i assume too, we'll see a patch, have a week or something to find out problems then they'll turn it off and fix the issues and then have another go, lol

Any news or an ETA on whats being considered/balance forum/test server?

I believe when that's all sorted out there will be a revised planfile.

Tratos
06-02-06, 16:41
I believe when that's all sorted out there will be a revised planfile.
Cheers for the update.

Digital-Talios
06-02-06, 17:17
Now I already know the answer but I will ask anyway. Would it be possible if KK could give us Neptunies a heads up for the fate of the server? I'd hate to waste my time on something that will/a good chance of being canned.

xyl_az
07-02-06, 14:40
yes, what will become of neptune?





KK we'd like to have an answer on this matter (the reasons are quite obvious i think)

Richard Slade
08-02-06, 16:54
Will the PPU issue be solved?
And will spies be dodgy with their 100dex or once?
(I got more agility than anyone else but still noone sees a difference and that friggin tank runs past me)
Why are tanks faster than spies? With heavy load, sure but with empty backpack?

l8m0n
08-02-06, 17:04
Will the test server be up before 2.2? would like to look/test it out before its ingame so can give some feed back on bugs (cos we all know there will be) ;)

Digital-Talios
08-02-06, 20:09
Will the test server be up before 2.2? would like to look/test it out before its ingame so can give some feed back on bugs (cos we all know there will be) ;)

I want a test server for the test server damn it

msressi
08-02-06, 23:32
Where is a test server ........................waiting

And since when is the genotoxic ammo fiasco fixed? Please advise

Nidhogg
09-02-06, 00:06
Genotoxic ammo was fixed a long time ago. The only remaining issue is if you have stocks of the ammo from before the fix - this should not be used or it will destroy your weapon.

The test server will be opened once there is something to test but it's likely that there will be a period of public consultation before we get to that point.

N

Dribble Joy
09-02-06, 01:55
I know I shouldn't ask and KK shouldn't really answer, but is there a rough ETA on the new forums? Are we talking a couple of weeks, or several months?

Richard Slade
09-02-06, 03:06
I know I shouldn't ask and KK shouldn't really answer, but is there a rough ETA on the new forums? Are we talking a couple of weeks, or several months?
Whenever they gather enough Kinder to make Niddy take away his big ass bat from the door...

Digital-Talios
09-02-06, 16:33
Genotoxic ammo was fixed a long time ago. The only remaining issue is if you have stocks of the ammo from before the fix - this should not be used or it will destroy your weapon.

The test server will be opened once there is something to test but it's likely that there will be a period of public consultation before we get to that point.

N

eh i hope its not consultation on turning the neptune server into the test server :(

Zheo
09-02-06, 17:59
I will assume that Reakktor is aware of the current issue with City Merc runners and soul light, would it be too hopeful of me to assume their will be a small patch including a fix for this problem before 2.2 or is it "not an issue"

Dribble Joy
09-02-06, 18:01
Ditch SL..... *sends psycic message to Dirus*

Richard Slade
09-02-06, 20:40
Ditch SL..... *sends psycic message to Dirus*

Add general hatred instead :)

Dribble Joy
09-02-06, 22:24
FC cna work as specific SL to each faction, much more effective in a dynamic or less clear cut faction system.

TheJesterLives
10-02-06, 20:33
This patch ever getting released?

Don't want too read 8 pages :)

Zheo
10-02-06, 22:44
This patch ever getting released?

Don't want too read 8 pages :)


Can anyone update on the ETA? Would be nice to hear something more again as it's been a while since this was posted.

pain_easer
12-02-06, 02:40
So when a patch comes out , the test server will be up for a week or w/e and then it will close down again ?
And can anyone play the test server?

Dribble Joy
12-02-06, 02:46
Dunno, might be a selected group..

Drake6k
12-02-06, 18:45
When will we be updated about the new forums, test server, balancing, and patches?

Because saying nothing wont increase my odds.

calim
17-02-06, 14:41
Can anyone update on the ETA? Would be nice to hear something more again as it's been a while since this was posted.

I follow.

Bishop Yutani
17-02-06, 18:51
I would guess its gotta be a long time from now. If 2.2 is coming around the summer, you probably wont hear anything about it until spring at least.

But i would get the F off Neptune if i were you ;)

Dirus
18-02-06, 22:51
So far theres nothing to update, we're still in an information collection phase, and are not ready to start discussing anything at this point.

Richard Slade
19-02-06, 14:02
So far theres nothing to update, we're still in an information collection phase, and are not ready to start discussing anything at this point.
Just drop some random content on us for now,more furniture and toys!!
(I hope you do realize how far u get from making items that are useless in combat...)

giga191
19-02-06, 14:22
(I hope you do realize how far u get from making items that are useless in combat...) which is why they are working on balancing so that there are more viable combat options

Zheo
19-02-06, 14:58
One thing that would be really nice, is if they made it so you didn't have like an ultimate weapon EG: CS, HL, Slasher etc. all rares should have strong points and weak points, like maybe CS does more damage, but a rav has higher freq. so it balances out in the end. Also i'd like some higher TL hc rares so we can get a *** combat rank, spies can, pe's i think i've seen one or two, and monks can, but i've never ever seen a tank unless he's in a rhino with *** combat rank.

Bugs Gunny
19-02-06, 15:18
I'd like to see non rare weapon setups made viable.

Tratos
19-02-06, 15:34
Can anyone from KK comment on other areas of development? as i assume life at KK for for the various graphics departments (level, 2d and 3d design) are as normal since the balancing work is up to Dirus and the coders?

The game is getting a bit stale at the moment and theres a few little things which could be worked on to give us some sort of patching since it was stated patching would continue between now and 2.2.

New ammo models and 2d inventory items would be nice since the current set dont match what was displayed in the renders we saw or whats stuck into our guns ingame. Perhaps some QA on NPC scripts?

Anything? :(

Dribble Joy
19-02-06, 16:47
One thing that would be really nice, is if they made it so you didn't have like an ultimate weapon EG: CS, HL, Slasher etc. all rares should have strong points and weak points, like maybe CS does more damage, but a rav has higher freq. so it balances out in the end. Also i'd like some higher TL hc rares so we can get a *** combat rank, spies can, pe's i think i've seen one or two, and monks can, but i've never ever seen a tank unless he's in a rhino with *** combat rank.
The dmg/time would still be the same, so though you are catering to sightly different playstyles, not very different ones.

Problem is that with the current system (more pronounced with tanks and apus) is that there is no room for choice between offence and defence, which afaik, is what they are trying to create. Which will mean a complete rework of armours, weapons, imps and the skill system.

Safunte
19-02-06, 17:44
Although the game is pointed in this direction... I hope it is moreso after balancing.

I would like to see the mechanics of the pvp in neocron more dependant on player skill rather than character skill.

For example, I want it to be considered a fair fight when its 6v10 at an op war with the 6 side capable of winning if their people are good enough. Of course this is possible now but not as much as I'd like it to be.

ALSO, I liked back in NC1 when capping weapons was... hard? You know, tanks putting in targetting 3 cpus to get closer to capping their CS aiming. It meant longer fights because people weren't pumping out insane amounts of damage.

Dribble Joy
19-02-06, 18:02
Balancing 6 to 10 is very hard, if impossible. If you balance each class perfectly, then more players = better chance of winning.

As much as we want player skill to be a major factor, it doesn't mean we should exclude those of average skill from competitiveness.

Like DB, if DB is kept as a PE weapon, and an integral part of PE balancing, then it's method of casting would have to change. It relies too heavily on the twitch skills and timing abilites of the user currently, it's difficult for a player of average skill to cast on the move, even with high psu. This all means that those with the required skill gain too decicive an advantage.

As for CS dmg, as with all weapons, it can be changed.

giga191
19-02-06, 18:23
I would like to see the mechanics of the pvp in neocron more dependant on player skill rather than character skill.
/signed

my biggest worry with this balancing is that its gonna remove some of the player skill in favor of 100% balance.

Dribble Joy
19-02-06, 19:39
It is quite possible that 100% balance could infact bring about much more scope for player skill to be decicive. If all things item, weapon, skill and ability are in perfect harmony and there is no advantage in anything over anything else, then skill is the only remaing factor.

Nidhogg
19-02-06, 20:15
If all things item, weapon, skill and ability are in perfect harmony and there is no advantage in anything over anything else, then skill is the only remaing factor.
Elementary, my dear Dribble.

N

Dribble Joy
19-02-06, 20:22
You bored?

Noticed you have been a bit spammy today... :p

giga191
19-02-06, 22:48
It is quite possible that 100% balance could infact bring about much more scope for player skill to be decicive. If all things item, weapon, skill and ability are in perfect harmony and there is no advantage in anything over anything else, then skill is the only remaing factor. 100% balance could also mean that in a perfect 1 vs 1, both people die at the same time regardless of whether one person is more skilful. But that would only come if they either change the aiming, hitboxes or speed (the most likely being speed).

Nidhogg
19-02-06, 23:01
100% balance could also mean that in a perfect 1 vs 1, both people die at the same time regardless of whether one person is more skilful.
That makes no sense. Only with 100% balance can player skill consistently be a determining factor. Hence my original comment at DJ (which was also worded that way because the part I quoted was so similar to Sherlock Holmes' method of determining the truth - pearls before swine I tell you, pearls before swine. :p)

N

Dribble Joy
19-02-06, 23:57
Indeed, given 100% balance, two players would only kill each other if their skills were equal.

eprodigy
20-02-06, 01:05
well if two people stood still and started shooting at each other at the same time without moving then i guess that would be true.. but that's good.

but as they said, the whole reason for balance is to make skill the deciding factor, which it is NOT now.

Dribble Joy
20-02-06, 01:08
Statistically, you don't need to be satationary, if both hit, 30, 50, 80 or 100% of the time then they die together, only a difference in skill will produce a result.

giga191
20-02-06, 11:51
That makes no sense. Only with 100% balance can player skill consistently be a determining factor. Hence my original comment at DJ (which was also worded that way because the part I quoted was so similar to Sherlock Holmes' method of determining the truth - pearls before swine I tell you, pearls before swine. :p)

N Compare tank fights to PE fights. There can easily be a huge difference in HP at the end with PEs, where it will be less likely with tanks since they move so much slower

EDIT: just to clarify, i mean that the easier they make it to hit other players the less skill is involved, since as aiming becomes harder the difference that player skill makes goes up exponentially.

Dribble Joy
20-02-06, 12:12
Speed is more or less irrelevant when you balance things, since you have to assume a skill level where aiming is not an issue.

What you have to make sure is that balance for those with less than perfect skill is that differences in char type is still not a factor.

Movement rate differences between the classes is really not that great. Tanks seem to slow a lot slower from the player's perspective, but there is little or no distinction between an MC or HC user from the opponent's view.

giga191
20-02-06, 12:26
Speed is more or less irrelevant when you balance things, since you have to assume a skill level where aiming is not an issue.
It is relevant in balancing but it's just extremely hard to deal with. Obviously if one char was forced to stand still during a fight while another person was moving at 100mph, but they do the same dmg, then there's going to be an issue.

Safunte
20-02-06, 15:04
As for CS dmg, as with all weapons, it can be changed.

I was reffering to the ease at which weapons are capped. My problem currently does not lie with the huge amounts of damage people take nowadays, its that people hardly used to cap their weapons, and did less damage because of that, now you can have a pe running around capping their high tl dex based weapon and casting their capped tl10 heal, thats not right... even though i think pes (aside from xbow) are the most balanced class atm

Bugs Gunny
20-02-06, 15:50
You guys all seem like the changes are going to happen very soon.

Well, my rough estimate is end Q2/beginnging Q3 2006.

xyl_az
20-02-06, 17:05
You guys all seem like the changes are going to happen very soon.

Well, my rough estimate is end Q2/beginnging Q3 2006.

depends what kind of changes do you and others have in minds...

Scaramanga
20-02-06, 19:29
If it is June/July when it comes out, will there be any patches to keep us going? Or is it all resources on the balancing issue?

unreal
20-02-06, 22:59
You guys all seem like the changes are going to happen very soon.

Well, my rough estimate is end Q2/beginnging Q3 2006.So soon? :rolleyes: