View Full Version : My big balancing thread
Please do read the whole thing through before you post, and if you can't be bothered then don't post in this thread. Also, don't post unless you know enough about the game to make a criticism or to agree with me, because all these ideas are based on a lot of PvPing on every class.
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Psi Monks
The first thing I would do is to get rid of pure APUs. They die too quickly, and kill too quickly and I have never really had fun being either side of that. So my first suggestion would have to be to force pure APUs into hybrid APUs. HL + apoc would need they're dmg to be reduced to about 3/4 of what it is now but made easier to cap, and with lower reqs. Their defence would go up by 1/3 because of SD, which would counter the reduction in damage.
It doesn't take long for an intelligent person to spot that monks would be gaining more defence than they would be losing dmg. I've seen a lot of people suggesting that monks should have a reticule, it does kind of seem like a good idea, but I would prefer something a little simpler and unique. All psi offensive spells should have 3 different stages of damage. 60%, 75% and 100%. The aimer would be green until after aiming at the target for 1.5 seconds, and it would do 60% dmg. After 1.5 seconds, the aimer would change colour to yellow/orange and would do 75% dmg. After 2.5 seconds of aiming at the target it would do the full 100% dmg of the spell. To go along with this idea, no offensive spell should exceed 80/min freq but should have a corresponding dmg increase so that the spells still do the same dmg/min. This idea is designed to make the class a much more skilful class to play and would separate the good players from the bad by taking away the current 'skim your aimer of the target and click at the right time' technique.
With this dmg decrease, the new APUs would have less to gain from having a PPU with them. Currently what they gain from having a PPU is lvl 3 primes and holy SD. Instead, what they would gain is lvl3 primes minus their self buff primes, and holy SD minus the defence bonus from their basic SD.
Now for the PPU problem. I've been thinking about whether we would be better off removing the pure PPU all together and just have blessed hybrid running around as PPUs instead. But that would probably make a lot of PPUs unhappy so that's probably not an option for KK. The first thing to do would be to adjust the para, DB. I think DB should be completely removed from the PPU's range of spells and I'll explain that later.
Psi Para: just forget the idea about making it do so people move slowly, because it just takes the aiming aspect of the game away. Instead make it an anti stealth device. All the lower versions of para should be removed, I'm sure no one would cry about this, para beam should be 10 seconds and holy para which would be 15 seconds. The range would need to halved so that they can't cast it on unsuspecting nooby spies/PEs from a mile away and to give them a chance to chose not to fight
Now for holy SD. It took a while to think of this because it still needs to be better than blessed stuff, yet it is still overpowered in it's current state. Foreign Holy SD should be half way between what it is now and foreign blessed SD. However it should be a single spell (shelter and deflector in one spell) so that it is still significantly better than blessed. This would make PPUs tougher to kill, so they would have to have the same protection as a foreign SD.
Heals. Simple idea that has been posted a lot, but it's effectiveness should not increase as more body parts are dmged (applies to all heals).
Most of these ideas mean that there is less incentive to bring loads of PPUs to OP wars since they would run out of things to do and get bored :)
That's pretty much it for monks
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GenTanks
I don't think that there is much wrong with them as they are now. The melee shocker would stay as it is, and would be the only effective way of paraing people (the old way, not the new way) and they will be able to kill people more easily with the new foreign SD spell.
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PEs
They would be affected negatively by the new anti stealth para spell, so they need something to make up for it.
The PE stealth tool should be able to do the equivalent of damage boosting at quite close range. It should shoot out a similar beam to the mech dogs (slow moving but tracks the target). If nothing is targeted then it acts as normal stealth tool. This would make PEs useful in OP wars and in team fighting, where as they are pretty much useless in OP wars atm.
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Spies
First thing to do, would be to remove the one hit kill ability of Kami drones. They should half the health of whoever they are targeting no matter what resists or buffs they have (if you have half health already, you go down to one quarter of full health for example).
Mosquito drones needs to be a range of different level drones which removes the current heal and stops a heal from being casted on the person for a certain length of time.
The only thing that I would add to them is that they should be able to go into the UG after the first layer or second layer of an OP has been hacked.
Other than that, they will remain able in combat and be the main tradeskilling class
It doesn't take long for an intelligent person to spot that monks would be gaining more defence than they would be losing dmg. I've seen a lot of people suggesting that monks should have a reticule, it does kind of seem like a good idea, but I would prefer something a little simpler and unique. All psi offensive spells should have 3 different stages of damage. 60%, 75% and 100%. The aimer would be green until after aiming at the target for 1.5 seconds, and it would do 60% dmg. After 1.5 seconds, the aimer would change colour to yellow/orange and would do 75% dmg. After 2.5 seconds of aiming at the target it would do the full 100% dmg of the spell. To go along with this idea, no offensive spell should exceed 80/min freq but should have a corresponding dmg increase so that the spells still do the same dmg/min. This idea is designed to make the class a much more skilful class to play and would separate the good players from the bad by taking away the current 'skim your aimer of the target and click at the right time' technique.
ok for the time being i will comment just on this one, because I was having somehting like this in mind as well.
However if we ever gonna see something like this in game, we need to be certain it will work much like how a reticle works now. The reticle on a gun is still small if you lose the target for a specific time, but if you lose the target for more than that, then it again requires its normal time to close. The target box on a monk (and ofcourse FOR EVERY SPELL ppu OR apu meaning this will affect also tanks,pes and spies) should work like this in order to get a good aimlock, but then the aimlock must stay at its full for a specific amount of time, otherwise the overall dmg will be next to noting. On the damage area now, to me all this damage nerf sounds a lot. You say for first that HL/FA should receive a 25% nerf at first, meaning 75% of what it was before. Then we apply the reticle rule and we have another 40% reduction meaning we now get something like 45% of how much a HL hits by now. This translates to something that is much less than 30 absolute dmg on a pe, or less than or equal to how a Wyatt Earp shoots. In which case, who would play a monk and for what reason?
ok for the time being i will comment just on this one, because I was having somehting like this in mind as well.
However if we ever gonna see something like this in game, we need to be certain it will work much like how a reticle works now. The reticle on a gun is still small if you lose the target for a specific time, but if you lose the target for more than that, then it again requires its normal time to close. The target box on a monk (and ofcourse FOR EVERY SPELL ppu OR apu meaning this will affect also tanks,pes and spies) should work like this in order to get a good aimlock, but then the aimlock must stay at its full for a specific amount of time, otherwise the overall dmg will be next to noting. On the damage area now, to me all this damage nerf sounds a lot. You say for first that HL/FA should receive a 25% nerf at first, meaning 75% of what it was before. Then we apply the reticle rule and we have another 40% reduction meaning we now get something like 45% of how much a HL hits by now. This translates to something that is much less than 30 absolute dmg on a pe, or less than or equal to how a Wyatt Earp shoots. In which case, who would play a monk and for what reason? it's only around 45% of current dmg if they can't aim very well :)
The first thing I would do is to get rid of pure APUs. They die too quickly, and kill too quickly and I have never really had fun being either side of that. So my first suggestion would have to be to force pure APUs into hybrid APUs. HL + apoc would need they're dmg to be reduced to about 3/4 of what it is now but made easier to cap, and with lower reqs. Their defence would go up by 1/3 because of SD, which would counter the reduction in damage.
I absolutely agree with that. All classes would become as viable with a PPU as the APU currently.
I posted the same idea some time ago in the german forum. After that I PMed with Carnage.
KK obviously wants to keep all possible ways to skill a monk. APU, PPU, blessed hybrid, APU-hybrid.
it's only around 45% of current dmg if they can't aim very well :)
I know Zel, but they are too weak. They dont have resists of a pe or a drugged spy. There is also another matter: Over time and whinning kk srinked the target box of a runner when aimed by a monk, meaning aiming on a monk is not as easy as some people think. Of course as it is now, monks do have the advantage, particularly in tight places, or places where there are lots of people gathered
Edit: what I mean to say is, that all these ideas are fine, but I am not in a position to understand how it will translate in real play in game. All these changes mess a lot with deep game mechanics, and in there its only KK's play courtyard
RogerRamjet
18-01-06, 17:09
Killing a class to achieve balance certainly wont happen. Making everyone become some sort of hybrid would suck balls even more.
Making skill a factor in how overpowered a class is is riduculous aswell. Its an outside factor, as opposed to a game mechanic, so in my eyes shouldnt be counted. People can suck as much on APUs as on Tanks.
Killing a class to achieve balance certainly wont happen. Making everyone become some sort of hybrid would suck balls even more.
Making skill a factor in how overpowered a class is is riduculous aswell. Its an outside factor, as opposed to a game mechanic, so in my eyes shouldnt be counted. People can suck as much on APUs as on Tanks.could u explain how it would kill a class, or why hybs would suck balls? or what is wrong with adding a skill factor to APUs?
Giving some sort of reticle is a gesture of Fairgame Roger. Aiming is game's mechanics and it should be the same to everyone.
realy dont like it =\
i dont wana see a damage reduction on monks tbh and i dont want there to be a lock on =\ what makes a monk enjoyable is u click when u see a hit box
i dont want para removed. just fixed. maby give people anti para sanc drugs which would be interesting
i realy dont like the pe stealth idea. as far as i can see they wont have a diss advantage they will be getting an advantage. yer they cant stleath but they become by far the most powerfull class because high lvl defence and heals have been nurfed
i love kammis ability to one hit kill, its not over powered. u NEVER die unless u are standing stilll. i have been hit by 3 kammies one after another buy people i know can one hit kill with them and i never drop. also the fun is blasting the kammi before it hits u. dont say you cant because it isnt hard (especialy if ur either in a vhc. have a cs. have slteath, have monk aim. that pritty much coveres every class)
-=edit=- i do hate twats who zone camp with cammies though i supose
In my opinion, taking into consideration the effects of the damage of an APU after this sort of nerf, plus the fact that their aiming has become a lot harder, they'd have to have an aim better than that of someone who plays a reticule class. Adding to that, their defence will increase by a third (if I remember reading that, I read it an hour or two ago before posting) but their damage output will be decreased by a hell of a lot more than one third. Which then puts the class on an underpowered level. This is even when every spell is casted every time - 100% perfect aim.
There is no class that requires a perfect aim for 2.5 seconds every shot. We can all afford to miss.
I don't think holy sd should be put into one spell either. Complete no no. this will make a PPUs job so much easier. One thing thats very effective against PPUs is a damage over time, especially a fire modded DoT. This is because it stacks a lot. Making SD harder to see if its running out, the fire makes the visual effect harder to see because of the constant burning. It would be a lot easier to recast SD if they both run out at *exactly* the same time, while be applied at exactly the same time. PPUs don't need their job made easier.
As for the PE stealth/damage boost thing, the reason PEs can stealth/damage boost (and use highTL weapons for those that don't like it) is because their main advantage, is being very versatile. If they wern't, they'd either be shitty spies or shitty tanks.
I admire you for spending some obvious time in this and thought of some better ideas than a lot of ideas put foward, but I don't believe the monk nerf ideas will be thought of by the community. Simply because most people have a different idea of a nerf or a balance and we all can't agree on something.
I agree with Roger on this one too.
/edit - I don't agree with getting rid of pure monks. I believe everyone running around as some form of monk would truly blow aswell. Hybrids are worse than pure APUs. Class removal, I think, is completely not on for KK.
Dribble Joy
18-01-06, 18:37
God... no...
There should be no advantage or specific requirement for any class to be played, class choice should be irrelevant to overall balance. PPUs and any other class or sub class should be of equal benefit to a team.
With your changes this would not happen, PPUs would still be a requirement, and you would 'need' melee users to para everyone.
Toning down, or even removing foreign S/D would not solve the PPU problem, the real issue is heals.
A lot to think about there, but I did pick up this point.
Now for holy SD. It took a while to think of this because it still needs to be better than blessed stuff, yet it is still overpowered in it's current state. Foreign Holy SD should be half way between what it is now and foreign blessed SD. However it should be a single spell (shelter and deflector in one spell) so that it is still significantly better than blessed. This would make PPUs tougher to kill, so they would have to have the same protection as a foreign SD.
This will have a side effect in PvM, meaning you would die from mobs much more easily. Reducing the mob damage would make caves easier to solo, especially for people with good resists or using drugs.
In otherwords, you would have to rebalance the entire game.
realy dont like it =\
i dont wana see a damage reduction on monks tbh and i dont want there to be a lock on =\ what makes a monk enjoyable is u click when u see a hit box
in other words it's too easy and you like it like that
realy dont like it =\
i dont want para removed. just fixed. maby give people anti para sanc drugs which would be interesting
if people need stuff like that to counter it, then isn't there something wrong with it in the first place?
i realy dont like the pe stealth idea. as far as i can see they wont have a diss advantage they will be getting an advantage. yer they cant stleath but they become by far the most powerfull class because high lvl defence and heals have been nurfed
PEs also get affected by the heal nerf, and when they get paraed there's no longer any way to stealth away, as for the DB, they can do that already but it can't be a spell because otherwise PPUs would use it.
Anyway, I don't see the problem with the APU suggestion. They get more defence than they get offence taken away. The freq on spells is reduced but the dmg is increased to match it, so they will probably end up doing slightly more dmg than before per hit but they have to aim more. What is the problem with not having pure APUs anyway? Every other class has to spec some PPU to be good in pvp, why shouldn't APUs?
The whole idea behind the PPU changes is that they give PPUs less stuff to do so you end up needing less PPUs around. They don't need to db, they don't need to para, and they can cast SD in one spell. And dribble, isn't a healer class always gonna be a requirement? If all classes had no advantages then why not remove all classes except one because that's pretty much the only way of it not mattering what classes people bring to OP wars
if people need stuff like that to counter it, then isn't there something wrong with it in the first place?
If all classes had no advantages then why not remove all classes except one because that's pretty much the only way of it not mattering what classes people bring to OP wars
I think you just kicked both your arguments in the bollocks.
Toning down, or even removing foreign S/D would not solve the PPU problem, the real issue is heals.
The real issue is paraspamming + netlag(clipping), not heals
Scaramanga
18-01-06, 19:18
As there is no way that KK will implement all that lot in one go, how would you go about phasing it in? Which of the changes would you bring in first?
sanityislost
18-01-06, 19:19
Hell NO!!.....tbh i didnt read all of it....But i love playing my pure apu solo!!
if that shit happened i would be outta here.....im not trying to sound over
dramatic.....but i love hunting in pp3....killing some people and then having to
run to the snack shop to heal!!! milky rens ftw!!! ( Yea i know im weird, but i
always forget to bring medkits :D )
SiL ..:..
Well.
This is not a too ba idea, much better then reducing Holy Heal TBH.
I came to this conclusion : PURE PSI CLASS ARE KILLING THE FUN OF THE GUNS !!!
Fuck Holy Spells. They should remove MONK PA as the APU/PPU bonus allow for super CON setups + caping spells.
Remove PSI buff, and take of the damn PA.
Most MOVEON monks shouldnt CAP HL, and instead be forced to use shit like queen flame ava and psi attack2.
Those spell at least seem to me like 'balanced', and make the game closer to a fair FPS then a monk indulging MMO.
Some of the higher lv mobs could then need a small damage nerf (10% for mobs like DoY assault Unit and MC5 rest is fine)
I think you just kicked both your arguments in the bollocks. The first bit that you quoted is with regards to needing anti para drugs to remove para. He was saying that it doesn't matter that para is unbalanced, lets just use some drug to remove it. You gotta go to the root of the problem instead of trying to balance something like that.
As for the bit you quoted afterwards, I was saying that there is nothing wrong with some classes having some strategic advantages in OP wars. But atm, all the advantages lie with PPUs and APUs. PPUs have the heals, primes, SD, rezz, para, DB. APUs have the anti buff, no LoS, AOE, really easy aim and the huge damage needed to counter other PPUs SD. Strategical advantages need to be spread across all 4 classes, not just in 2 branches of a single class.
Plz don't take things out of context.
EDIT:
I came to this conclusion : PURE PSI CLASS ARE KILLING THE FUN OF THE GUNS !!!
yup, people might have fun playing them, but it spills out on other people's fun.
The whole idea that I posted would be my ideal balance. It's trying to solve a lot of problems at once. If KK found this to be too difficult to not fuck up (;)) then the easier solution would to be foreign cast heals to disapear when you are being shot by people who are not in your team.
EDIT #2: actually APUs deffinitely need changing, it's ridiculous how i can get dbed and killed in 2 seconds by HL.
APU's are where they need to be currently. They are frail little people who can die to a stubbed toe and have more damage then any other class. They just need somthing equal to a reload.
in other words it's too easy and you like it like that
no i mean standing one to one with a apu and we do identacal damage over time... my cs/pob does exactly what there hl does but in a reduced format on there lower hp and we die at the same time... monks are actualy harder to aim when they run around. missing a person means ur psi goes fast n u have to gobble boosters if the person dodges long enough to get u out of boosters ur totaly fucked. changing boosters may be fast but ur defs aint gona last long enough...
the problem with ru idea is ur going away from what a monk is. high damage low def. u may aswell delete apu's not just make em into pe's basicaly the effect ppus have on apus needs to be adressed not teh apu its self
if people need stuff like that to counter it, then isn't there something wrong with it in the first place?
erm ye so lets remove buffs. because there are anti buffs... lets remove heals, lets remove para, and db, lets remove stealth because there a truesight... cvountering something is a skill life isnt about my e-penis is longer than urs because i can hold a mouse over u longet. its also about tactics
PEs also get affected by the heal nerf, and when they get paraed there's no longer any way to stealth away, as for the DB, they can do that already but it can't be a spell because otherwise PPUs would use it.
OMG u actualy ment remove db as a psi modules... are u crazie lol. that would leave monks nothing to do. totaly destroying a class... i dun give a fuck if ppl stealth, i take em out aoe plasma or even a rocket pistol... only people who get the disatvantage are spys (they realy need a aoe weapon i have said that before)
Anyway, I don't see the problem with the APU suggestion. They get more defence than they get offence taken away. The freq on spells is reduced but the dmg is increased to match it, so they will probably end up doing slightly more dmg than before per hit but they have to aim more. What is the problem with not having pure APUs anyway? Every other class has to spec some PPU to be good in pvp, why shouldn't APUs?
the problem is when a ppu is involved. an apu becomes useless. its already pathetic defence boosted only via selff buffs and its newly pethetic offence messes things up. spell freq reduction will realy cause problesm with psi boosters having time to boost pools so modules can fire again
forinstance. if i could repoke my blessed hyp into pure apu for fighting in a team then he would be useless in any type of op scean. his buffs dont cut the mustard when i can be doing more damage and have the same defence...
(ps i dont have to aim on my hyb any way i use holy multy lightning... whats gona happen with multy spells then?)
The whole idea behind the PPU changes is that they give PPUs less stuff to do so you end up needing less PPUs around. They don't need to db, they don't need to para, and they can cast SD in one spell. And dribble, isn't a healer class always gonna be a requirement? If all classes had no advantages then why not remove all classes except one because that's pretty much the only way of it not mattering what classes people bring to OP wars
u just said it there. give a ppu less stuf tto do then all the people who love playing ppu's will quit... we give them a godlike defence because they have nothing to do in a fight apart form keep people alive. they cant realy dish any true damage as it should be. your talking about destroying an entier class not ballancing here
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erm ye so lets remove buffs. because there are anti buffs... lets remove heals, lets remove para, and db, lets remove stealth because there a truesight... cvountering something is a skill life isnt about my e-penis is longer than urs because i can hold a mouse over u longet. its also about tactics
parashock is an anti buff in it self. There's a difference between an anti buff, and an anti anti buff.
(ps i dont have to aim on my hyb any way i use holy multy lightning... whats gona happen with multy spells then?) multi spells aren't a problem though are they?
u just said it there. give a ppu less stuf tto do then all the people who love playing ppu's will quit... we give them a godlike defence because they have nothing to do in a fight apart form keep people alive. they cant realy dish any true damage as it should be. your talking about destroying an entier class not ballancing here your gonna end up with less PPUs per team is what i said. i have no simpathy if they feel that this would destroy their class, because it's ruining everyone elses who does play the game to have god mode turned on all the time.
parashock is an anti buff in it self. There's a difference between an anti buff, and an anti anti buff.
multi spells aren't a problem though are they?
only trouble with para is u cant remove it fast enough
the best para drug shoudl be INSTANT with 1/10 of a 3stat drugs drugflash
the otherse should take time with no flash
i want an anti buff on my PE too :(
multi spells aren't a problem though are they?
lmao... on my hyb i can take out 2 runners at the same time with multy lightnin and i never miss a single hit because anywhere i aim hits and my own heal out heals everybody else... i would say they are quite a problem
there damage output isnt massive but when u never miss a shot the damage adds up fast. and the psi boosters means u can cast constantly becaues of the low mana need
lmao... on my hyb i can take out 2 runners at the same time with multy lightnin and i never miss a single hit because anywhere i aim hits and my own heal out heals everybody else... i would say they are quite a problem
there damage output isnt massive but when u never miss a shot the damage adds up fast. and the psi boosters means u can cast constantly becaues of the low mana need ok, you win, i'll get KK to add hybs to the list of things to get nerfed :)
ok, you win, i'll get KK to add hybs to the list of things to get nerfed :)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
lol i like my hyb, hes usefull as a pe in solo play
and useful as a apu in team play. with the advantage of a tl10 heal if the ppu gets a lil destracted, and can cast noob def/shelter on anybody in ma way
Bugs Gunny
19-01-06, 08:29
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
lol i like my hyb, hes usefull as a pe in solo play
and useful as a apu in team play. with the advantage of a tl10 heal if the ppu gets a lil destracted, and can cast noob def/shelter on anybody in ma way
A good apu hybrid will kill any pe.
A blessed hybrid will kill two pes.
RogerRamjet
19-01-06, 10:29
could u explain how it would kill a class, or why hybs would suck balls? or what is wrong with adding a skill factor to APUs?
Removing pure APU/PPUs = class killing.
And theres enough fecking blessed hybrids running around as it is.
Bugs Gunny
19-01-06, 10:43
Hey, nerf psi attack2 and you won't see too many blessed hybrids running around, that spell is way too powerfull for its tl.
RogerRamjet
19-01-06, 10:47
Hey, nerf psi attack2 and you won't see too many blessed hybrids running around, that spell is way too powerfull for its tl.
Theres an even better blessed hybrid spell ;)
Theres an even better blessed hybrid spell ;)
Poison halo? Fire halo? Or that funny multibolt spell?
I somehow doubt it, i mean that TL 60ish psi attack 2 outdamages a fully capped TL 88 rare explosive wyatt earp. Funny shit. :rolleyes:
/edit
Psi attack 2 is actually TL 51. WTF!
/edit
Or you mean that holy energylance? Was duelling tonkers the other day, that spell completely pwned me. Not damagewise, it took him ages to actually kill me cause my buffs ran. But getting hit pushes you around like mad and makes you go blind, it's nearly impossible to hit someone then. :lol:
Well first of incase you hadn't noticed class go a little like this
Spy: PC or RC or Drone
Tank: HC or MC
PE: PC or RC or HC
Monk: APU or PPU or Both
So reduce monks to both and that'd make them a specialist class, thats one reason why KK wont do this, secondly a blessed hybrid would be over powered like they are now, if you haven't noticed they are extreamly difficult to kill.
I still say the best idea to sort out monks is
1) Nerf hybrids.
2) IF you have shelter/def on and you get healing cast on you, your shelter and def drop, if you have healing cast on you nad shelter and def get cast on you then heal drops. <-- thus you get either defenses OR healing not both as it is now, however this is only when casting on someone else.
3) Bring back spirit mod so we can take down a ppu's defenses and strip his health away.
Most of that USED to exsist BEFORE the problem came about of ppus and apus and hybrids so it basically needs to go back how it used to be, and then the heal/defense thing would be in addition and a damn good addition, ppu role would be played down alot. They'd still be good at an op fight, healing those who are near death and buffing people up with spy melee, a haz or heat 3, they'd just be slightly not as good and at risk of dying if they get attacked.
How about
*TL3 and 10 heals recuded by 33%
*Blessed and holy reduced 50%
*When forign casting a heal the heal remains at full effectiveness as long as the target dousent move. As soon as the target moves, the heals effectivness turns into 50% of what it was.
*Parashock no longer effects mouse sensativity
Think thats a good start?
How about
*TL3 and 10 heals recuded by 33%
*Blessed and holy reduced 50%
*When forign casting a heal the heal remains at full effectiveness as long as the target dousent move. As soon as the target moves, the heals effectivness turns into 50% of what it was.
*Parashock no longer effects mouse sensativity
Think thats a good start?
then you will do this in favour of more power to blessed/apu hybrids and pure apu monks. Meaning even more monks and the hybrid will more likely be the king of all.
If you leave paraglue as it is and fix the mouse glueing only, then you leave lame and unjustified effects of para as far as speed/dodging untouched. What we need is a fair counter spell for para that is selfcasting for selfefficiency and not dependability and also has a good duration to counter paraspam. In short, antipara drugs are not efficient anymore. They were invented in times where there were 1-2 ppus in op wars to support large groups of 20-30 fighters
No hybrids dont receive a boost at all from this. Hybrids are only realy effective as a solo class, so we are comparing solo vs solo for them. That means they can no longer outheal every thing thrown at them. Their heals are half of what they where.
In a group situation they are a bit better compared to how everyone else would be becouse they wouldent receive a heal malus when moving, but then again they sacrifice a tonne of damage for it and its still only a bit more effective then a 50% holy heal.
Apu's wouldent be as powerfull with a ppu becouse heal wouldent be godmode.
Tanks get a boost becouse their resists and hp woulc come into play more.
Only problem i can agree with you with is parashock, and i honestly cant think of a good way to balance it without removing it or making it pointless anyways.
yet again another nerf Post, the only thing worth reading is the reticle idea, imo that would solve the problem, the problem is nerfing monks nerfs all the other classes aswell and if you can see that then well....
You guys are talking about a major change in PvP/PvM, yes monks are over powered but not by a alot, tanks used to be the same, they sorted them out by clip size etc, there are much better ways to sort this problem than slaping it with the nerf stick, so plz stfu about nerfing them, they heard you the first time :lol:
No matey.
When such a supposed reduction is ever gonna take place this is what will happen:
First of all it will affect ALL classes but apus, ofcourse which they dont give a shit.
The tank with such low levels of psi will receive such a hit which will render heals practically unusable (33% is too much of a hit for a tank)
Then follows the spy. A druggy spy which barely caps his 120 dmg heal will now lose a huge means of healing which results to a nerf as well.
Pes and hybrids are those that care less because its easy to cap those spells and besides they already use powerfull TL10 heals. Specifically the hybrid will continue being as deadly as it was with somewhat reduced heal ability.
for apus its business as usual.
blessed hyb and ppu receives a nerf loses some of its defences
How will all this tranlate into battles? I dont know. Do I believe it fixes anything? No, because the main problems are still there. The apu has its powerfull HL, ppus paraspam, netlag makes things worse.
Unless someone can prove me in numbers that the HH is the problem of all that i mentioned I will keep saying that the biggest problems and those that need adressing are
1. para
2. reticle to all classes for fairplay
3. netlag
Edit:: If I go back in time I can remember how all this myth regarding HolyHeals begun and spread out like a decease. I know for sure it was QD and DJ among those that spread those rumours, the only 2 persons you have to search more than 2 years to find them participating in an OP war ... ANY OP war. For all those that claim the HH is the route of all evil I say: get some skills, coordinate with your team and counter the spell...
Bugs Gunny
19-01-06, 13:24
I'll be happy if they give monks a reload animation and a reticle.
2.5sec aiming warping lagging bouncing mountaint/wall clipping target, yeah - lets do this. maby with another engine but not this one.
I'll be happy if they give monks a reload animation and a reticle.
/ agree this is the only way to do this, gigias ideas are good, but only for brainport and not ingame ideas, nerfs never solve problems and if you know alot about this game as you keep saying you would know that :wtf:
No matey.
When such a supposed reduction is ever gonna take place this is what will happen:
First of all it will affect ALL classes but apus, ofcourse which they dont give a shit.
The tank with such low levels of psi will receive such a hit which will render heals practically unusable (33% is too much of a hit for a tank)
Then follows the spy. A druggy spy which barely caps his 120 dmg heal will now lose a huge means of healing which results to a nerf as well.
Pes and hybrids are those that care less because its easy to cap those spells and besides they already use powerfull TL10 heals. Specifically the hybrid will continue being as deadly as it was with somewhat reduced heal ability.
for apus its business as usual.
I mostly just disagree.
First the tl10 receives the same percent decrease in regen as the tl3.
Second, the heal decrease is the same accross the board. Its not like the disadvantage will be less for a pe then a spy, no its the exact same. 33% decrease for pe tl10, 33% decrease for spy tl3.
blessed hyb and ppu receives a nerf loses some of its defences
How will all this tranlate into battles? I dont know. Do I believe it fixes anything? No, because the main problems are still there. The apu has its powerfull HL, ppus paraspam, netlag makes things worse.
No, the main goal is to reduce the affect of ppu's in a battle in general and to help a tank gain more im comperason to a apu with a ppu.
Unless someone can prove me in numbers that the HH is the problem of all that i mentioned I will keep saying that the biggest problems and those that need adressing are
1. para
2. reticle to all classes for fairplay
3. netlag
When a spell that can be cast in under a second and barely uses any psi can outheal nearly every weapon in the game there is a problem. Whats that, you hit 3/4 of all your bursts on a target while healing? To bad it was all for nothing becouse that last 1/4 bursts are the only ones that would have gotten through. Not that it matters becouse the heal is constant where a reload lets the target reach their peak HP again.
Edit:: If I go back in time I can remember how all this myth regarding HolyHeals begun and spread out like a decease. I know for sure it was QD and DJ among those that spread those rumours, the only 2 persons you have to search more than 2 years to find them participating in an OP war ... ANY OP war. For all those that claim the HH is the route of all evil I say: get some skills, coordinate with your team and counter the spell...
Ya everyone must be a noob but you :rolleyes: .
Edit:: If I go back in time I can remember how all this myth regarding HolyHeals begun and spread out like a decease. I know for sure it was QD and DJ among those that spread those rumours, the only 2 persons you have to search more than 2 years to find them participating in an OP war ... ANY OP war. For all those that claim the HH is the route of all evil I say: get some skills, coordinate with your team and counter the spell...My fighting habits are pretty much the exact opposite of QD & DJ - they are self professed duelling specialists, QD especially. I, on the other hand, almost never play like that - I just find it limits tactical options too much.
I've been fighting pretty much every variant of every class in every combination in `real world` scenarios for over 3 years now. Although the trimming of the forum database means a lot of older threads/posts have gone, I can distinctly remember commenting on how Holy Heal was starting to unbalance things right at the beginning of the NC1 "Hybrid Era", and in a similar regard several times since. I was not alone in saying this.
As for the `getz0r sum skeelz !11q` type comment - that gets a good old ShadowDancer ` :rolleyes: `
For some reason you are fixating on Para.
Sure - it's *an* issue ... but it's a different one, and only tangentially related to the excessive influence of PPUs.
Bugs Gunny
19-01-06, 16:39
I agree, a holy healed SD'ed target is a waste of ammo, might as well try spending the time dbing and tl3 healing.
(And oh yeah... DODGING their shots)
could u explain how it would kill a class, or why hybs would suck balls? or what is wrong with adding a skill factor to APUs
well remove all the higher TL wepaons from PES remove their stealth remove their xbows and sure would be even
well remove all the higher TL wepaons from PES remove their stealth remove their xbows and sure would be even i could do exactly the same thing with a spy or an APU hybrid with a quad, so you'll have to do better than that to nerf me.
I'll be happy if they give monks a reload animation and a reticle. *cough* and holy heal nerf *cough*
well remove all the higher TL wepaons from PES remove their stealth remove their xbows and sure would be even
PEs are meant to have a lot of variation in their skills... What else are they good for if they don't have variation?
PEs are meant to have a lot of variation in their skills... What else are they good for if they don't have variation? what would you do if you were the leader of a clan which was reliant on monks? or if you got beaten on every other char so you play monk all day? Personally, i'd prolly be pro-monks like lore is.
i could do exactly the same thing with a spy or an APU hybrid with a quad, so you'll have to do better than that to nerf me.
spies and apu hybs aint really overpowered i think pes with xbow is :)
what would you do if you were the leader of a clan which was reliant on monks? or if you got beaten on every other char so you play monk all day? Personally, i'd prolly be pro-monks like lore is.
and i did kill u on ma tank dident i ? but liek i said xbow pes are > all other classes solo
So true. I have actually less trouble with a apu/ppu or hybrid then a PE using a xbow. I actually get to kill the apu at times. But ofcorse the apu sucks right? And my resist suck aswell huh? Full xray bones, and 114 on xray + 5 from belt, is a shit xray resist setup isnt it? Allthough u cant get any higher on a tank. So all in all the game is balanced again. Anybody using a xbow should be the last to call for a nurf on monks tbh.
Woo my first post. Reading this thread got me thinking about nerfing psi boosters to match the same regeneration speed as medkits n stuff(or maybe bit more), and then putting a bit more dmg to apu modules + easier to cap, this way ppu's should hafta think about when to buff, if to buff at all.
At the same time this would balance blessed hybrids (as they have to use tons of psi to stay alive / to kill his opponent.
think about a ppu getting antibuffed, he would waste about 200 psi just to stay alive.
Combat resurrections also wouldn't occur since resurrection needs a ton of psi.
+ Ppu's would have to think more.
+ Apu + Ppu combo would be droppable by a stealthwhore who's patient enough
+ Opwars would DEFINITELY Include more non-monk classes for the endurance. Apu's would save their psi for the rush if ppl come out of the ug. (Ug barreling would also stop)
+ Blessed hybrids would be rendered "useful" instead of "overpowered"
+ Apu's would HAVE to use skill to hit instead of random button pressing while trying to aim at the opponent since psi would be constantly running out.
- Monks would be a bit slower to xp.
the best of all, this wouldn't affect to other classes (at least not directly)
btw: Im aggressive psi user from terra if anyone's thinking "who is this guy" :cool:
Bugs Gunny
20-01-06, 11:48
5 xbow pes, only two people complain about.
Strange how those pes were also doing massive killing when they were slasher/exec.
Oh and both of those pes died 80% of the time to the same slasher spy, therefore the slasher spy setup itself is overpowered?
(i'm talking about zyccy the beast here)
Judging from what i hear and dms within a month there will be about 10-15 xbow pes on terra. By your counts that should probably be a massive slaughter with xbow pes raping people left and right.
I think not. There's one comming out soon that's gonna hurt a lot too, jini.
The others i have my doubts about.
not only 2 people think they overpowered :P giga himself was complaining about it when he used exec about how it was *overpowered* lasted til he got one i think
Bugs Gunny
20-01-06, 12:29
You see, i've seen loads of people complaing about the xbow, then when they actualy shoot one or see results of a dammagetest on an even resist pe they'll shut up.
Also going in nf with a tl92 or tl83 pistol to duel them helps.
Yes it does more dammage (5%) than an xray exec, yes it can hit people in stealth with a bit of aoe (just like judge) and it is indeed a bit easier to aim than an exec once you're used to it (has a nastu tendency of shootin straight into the ground sometimes).
But don't forget you're talking massive leveling, then the grind to obtain the woc disk. There has to be something worth doing it for.
And it is NOT easy to cap. You will be set up close to a slasher pe to cap it if you get a very good one (150wpl/174pc).
But if you want to talk overpowered, how about massively nerfing the psi attack2 chip, reinstating apu-ppu malus to get rid of the realy overpowered players, blessed hybrids. (back on topic of monks)
Woo my first post. Reading this thread got me thinking about nerfing psi boosters to match the same regeneration speed as medkits n stuff(or maybe bit more), and then putting a bit more dmg to apu modules + easier to cap, this way ppu's should hafta think about when to buff, if to buff at all.
etc....
PSI boosters got a slight nerf in 2.1, they don't regenerate your PSI pool as quick as they used to.
And also your natural PSI pool regeneration rate is faster than a medkit. :wtf:
RogerRamjet
20-01-06, 13:09
The X-Bow isnt overpowered due to one other game mechanic.
Resists.
And zyccy is an unreal spy. He was one of only 3 people to beat my old rifle spy (zyccy, gunnar, and smurf) although i never got to fight Dargeshaad or Average Joe unfortunately.
Bugs Gunny
20-01-06, 13:42
Speaking of resists, there's so many misconceptions about that it's silly.
For instance i've seen xbow dammage on a capped pe range from 35-61.
Now a pe doesn't have a lot of options to go in regards with implants he's either judge, slasher/exec, lowtech, or str based. It's going for the "sweetspots" that gets you a workable runner with good resists.
There's this other thing called point economy which plays a major role.
Then there's flipover points, cappoints.
Honestly half of the information shared on the websites and forums is just plain false. Who knows, maybe the people that actualy did spend the time finding out didn't want to give it out for free?
Don't believe everything you read, find out for yourself.
Oh, and a tank that specs for 114xray without ppu buffs is a fool.
Most ppus go for haz3 to buff. Besides there's lowtech pes that get your resist value (total armor value) and add a shelter on top of it.
Any decent slasher or exec pe will kill that tank unless they have 0 poison and you are using a dev.
not only 2 people think they overpowered :P giga himself was complaining about it when he used exec about how it was *overpowered* lasted til he got one i think it wasn't really logical as to why i would lose to him, but looking back now, i can see a lot that was wrong with my exec setup
give tanks some boost and nerf ppus then i think we are on the right track
Speaking of resists, there's so many misconceptions about that it's silly.
For instance i've seen xbow dammage on a capped pe range from 35-61.
Now a pe doesn't have a lot of options to go in regards with implants he's either judge, slasher/exec, lowtech, or str based. It's going for the "sweetspots" that gets you a workable runner with good resists.
There's this other thing called point economy which plays a major role.
Then there's flipover points, cappoints.
Honestly half of the information shared on the websites and forums is just plain false. Who knows, maybe the people that actualy did spend the time finding out didn't want to give it out for free?
Don't believe everything you read, find out for yourself.
Oh, and a tank that specs for 114xray without ppu buffs is a fool.
Most ppus go for haz3 to buff. Besides there's lowtech pes that get your resist value (total armor value) and add a shelter on top of it.
Any decent slasher or exec pe will kill that tank unless they have 0 poison and you are using a dev.
I don't spec for a ppu. And if there's a ppu, all i need is shield. Only a fool or apu would spec for a ppu, and maybe the pure OP HC tank. I'm a city melee tank. In the open i'm toast to every class. I mean all im doing is maxing out my resists. As i usually run around on my own.
Edit: But true though, a good exe pe will end any lone tank.
Bugs Gunny
20-01-06, 15:24
By nerfing the ppus tanks actualy get a boost.
The heals won't matter as much and their high health will make more difference to apus than it does now.
Get a good set up pe, a good set up tank and an apu, all with holy buffs, SD and holy heal on them at all times and just using their weapon they'll have a hard time killing each other.
Now nerf the heal and you'll have tha pu still pouring out massive dammage but getting hurt more, the tank also hurts more but has about 150-200 more dammage he can take, the pe well maybe we'll see him at opwars along with spies again.
Now then as for opwars we have to get rid of the "barrel the ug and get bored" method and the "jojoride the ug" attack pattern.
Maybe with an opgate that has to be blown up (once hit for some % of dammage it warns the clan). Once the gate is blown the ug is close to go back down. Bring back the gatling mkIII turrets too as they were actualy worth placing to prevent ninjahacking. This would mean the attackers have to clear the op of the turrets and the door with long range fire or aoe, giving the defenders time to get ready before the ug is closed to all.
Result: Opfights with long ranged attacks, people in vehicles to destroy turrets, more classes present, tanks mean something again, more deaths.
I want tanks to have a new item with high STR req, called "Shield" or something.
http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/Photos/mil_roman_soldier_2_thrusting_shield.jpg
While holding it (they would have to select item in QB, not even a click needed), they can filter several nrg/fire/force damage but of course they can't attack until they go back to their weapon (losing shield effect).
:lol:
Scaramanga
20-01-06, 15:30
Would you make the shield directional, so it only covered front 25% of body?
Equivalent to a 90 degree arc i think....
Would you make the shield directional, so it only covered front 25% of body?
Equivalent to a 90 degree arc i think....
I suppose this couldn't be applied because of latency
give tanks some boost and nerf ppus then i think we are on the right track after doing some fighting on a tank, the only thing wrong with them is that they get owned by monks (both because of apu and ppu)
The first thing I would do is to get rid of pure APUs. They die too quickly, and kill too quickly and I have never really had fun being either side of that. So my first suggestion would have to be to force pure APUs into hybrid APUs. HL + apoc would need they're dmg to be reduced to about 3/4 of what it is now but made easier to cap, and with lower reqs. Their defence would go up by 1/3 because of SD, which would counter the reduction in damage.
yes plz...
wait actually I already play that =p
right now as a offensive dmg setup apu hyb as you described, my dmg on the info box for the HL is 670 versus the 870 or something of a capped purre apu. In pve I do roughly 170 while apus do roughly 240. To measure up i'd need db.
I do like your idea about that tho cuz that's the only reason i went with my curent setup from apu =p
but i do think we need to tone down heals by giving them a foreign cast penalty like we did for shelter and deflectors so ppus arent as necessary for a successful opfight like it is now. 7 apus and 8 ppus at an opfight... shite...
no comment on the monkey reticle thing as well cant see anything else about it until they implement.
---------------------------------------------
Spies
Mosquito drones needs to be a range of different level drones which removes the current heal and stops a heal from being casted on the person for a certain length of time.
Wouldnt that mean they cant kill ppl with Kami's
Although saying that any Droner with 70 dexx can cap a Revenge and kill any1 he lieks for the fun of it ^^
Spies
First thing to do, would be to remove the one hit kill ability of Kami drones. They should half the health of whoever they are targeting no matter what resists or buffs they have (if you have half health already, you go down to one quarter of full health for example).
Half of Half of Half... is infinity. 100 > 50 > 25 > 12.5 > 6.25 > 3.125 > 1.0625
but it'd still take you atleast 7 Kamis to kill someone if it kept being reduced by half.
As there is no way that KK will implement all that lot in one go, how would you go about phasing it in? Which of the changes would you bring in first?
Main issue right there, to fix the balance you need to break the game, which means pissed off people till their class/play style is fixed..
Main issue right there, to fix the balance you need to break the game, which means pissed off people till their class/play style is fixed..
Players are able to understand that tests should be done on a official server. They just have to be informed clearly, and take them informed.
Players are able to understand that tests should be done on a official server. They just have to be informed clearly, and take them informed.If anything tests SHOULDN'T be done on the official servers. I don't know how your few braincells work but I sure as hell don't want to pay for Reakktor to constantly fuck up the servers when i'm wanting to play on them. "Server going down in 60 seconds..." so they can add the patch... then not long after: "Server going down in 60 seconds..." so they can fix the patch they just added.
They should test things on a non public server, possibly inviting a select few of the more trusting members of the community to make comments and judgements.
Calim's post looks like it's lost pretty much all coherence in the translation process. I wouldn't put too much weight on what he said actually being what he means.
RogerRamjet
21-01-06, 13:18
Dirus, you know you mentioned you didnt like the current implant system? Well i was wondering if theres any rework for MC5 chips in the pipe line, since some other changes in the game have made most chips obsolete.
Half of Half of Half... is infinity. 100 > 50 > 25 > 12.5 > 6.25 > 3.125 > 1.0625
but it'd still take you atleast 7 Kamis to kill someone if it kept being reduced by half.
Main issue right there, to fix the balance you need to break the game, which means pissed off people till their class/play style is fixed.. therefore it would be a tactical weapon and not something that you could get instantly killed by without even seeing it because of the netcode
I certainly wouldnt use the kami drone if it took 7 of them.
How about just reducing the speed of the kami drone, so it moves much slower and it gives people a chance to notice it.
I certainly wouldnt use the kami drone if it took 7 of them.
How about just reducing the speed of the kami drone, so it moves much slower and it gives people a chance to notice it. and reduce the range so you can get to the body quickly
kammis are easy to kill unles sumbody zone line camps with em
they can be hit simple with a cs/monk
spy's/pe's stealth n when they come out of stealth (drug out is best) you will have plenty of time to aim on the drone n kill it before it compensates and aims on u
kammis are easy to kill unles sumbody zone line camps with em
they can be hit simple with a cs/monk
spy's/pe's stealth n when they come out of stealth (drug out is best) you will have plenty of time to aim on the drone n kill it before it compensates and aims on uThis is only true for a tiny percentage of kami incidents - mostly when the drone is hovering in place, or being moved slowly, looking to acquire a target.
If it's in proper motion .... not a fucking chance.
90% of the time detonation/death is the first indication you have that there's even a kami around.
The state of the current netcode and the drones' speed means that at anything above half speed it doesn't appear in local list before it reaches you. Hell, even if it's coming at you face on you won't see it a lot of the time.
Dirus, you know you mentioned you didnt like the current implant system? Well i was wondering if theres any rework for MC5 chips in the pipe line, since some other changes in the game have made most chips obsolete.
MC5's specifically? No.
Implants as a whole?. Yes.
In other words, I'm not interested in looking at just one small part of a system. If theres an issue with part of a system, then I want to look at it as a whole, and make sure every part of it is inline with the way it should be.
Would you mind letting on what you don't like about the implant system?
Would you mind letting on what you don't like about the implant system? /signed
and /signed i would like to know what KK are up to now.
for instance :
minus on PSI implants allow for a WIDE variety of hybrids setups, all overpowered for one reason or another.
coupled with the plus from MC5 psi core for instance....
RogerRamjet
21-01-06, 19:38
MC5's specifically? No.
Implants as a whole?. Yes.
In other words, I'm not interested in looking at just one small part of a system. If theres an issue with part of a system, then I want to look at it as a whole, and make sure every part of it is inline with the way it should be.
Fair enough, its just to me MC5s are getting pushed out of setups. I guess a whole rework would help.
I think the change was brought about by the new weapon formulas.
Edit: Blessed Hybrids id say are the only over powered hybrids, since APU hybrids still dont have the defense of a PE or spy, and they have a significant decrease in the offense as an APU.
Would you mind letting on what you don't like about the implant system?
Too early to say anything until we've had a chance to figure out what the ideal changes vs the doable changes results in. Certain aspects are still under discussion, so I'm not going to list the ideal changes yet.
I know I have a ton of different changes that would completely alter how thigns are done, so do other people. It's all a matter of figuring out whats feasable, and what isn't.
Thank you for the updates Dirus!
I can't wait to see what is planned..
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