View Full Version : Official word on ppus ?
Bugs Gunny
05-01-06, 14:35
Since Nidhogg is going to ask KK about the hacknet issues and provide us some feedback, i was wondering :
Can you also ask KK what their stance on ppus is now?
A while ago they acknowledged they were a problem, do they still feel the same way?
Are they going to do something about them if they still feel they are an issue?
In hopes that an official answer might clear the forums of the countless ppu nerf threads. All the possible ideas (and some good ones) have been discussed, and even though i don't like ppus much i'm going to KOS the next person that starts a thread about them.
RogerRamjet
05-01-06, 14:38
Im sick of monk nerf threads aswell.
In my eyes theyre not overpowered.
Its not the games fault people are just too scared to go to MB without a PPU.
Im sick of monk nerf threads aswell.
In my eyes theyre not overpowered.
Its not the games fault people are just too scared to go to MB without a PPU. are you really gonna trust a bunch of assholes on the internet to play fair?
Bugs Gunny
05-01-06, 14:42
Put it to the test:
Give tanks a moonstriker mod that kills everything in the blast radius in one shot.
Go watch an opwar two weeks later :angel:
are you really gonna trust a bunch of assholes on the internet to play fair?
hahahaha best truth ive heard so far on this subject.
RogerRamjet
05-01-06, 14:48
are you really gonna trust a bunch of assholes on the internet to play fair?
Thats the reason a PPU nerf wont help anything.
The only way to stop people whoring PPUs is to remove them, which im becoming more inclined to everyday.
the answer would be : yes we are aware of the ppu issues and yes we feel that something needs to be done about them
...
Bugs gunny, i made a post just like yours realy. I got no response. Wish you good luck.
...if i were KK, i would never ever announce any change on monks, cause the storm of whining would beat katrina or any of her evil sisters. instead i would introduce all changes quietly and step by step. and i bet thats what they do.
lol another "please take ppus out of the game or im going to cry" thread :rolleyes: guys PPUs need to be ingame, cos i would love to see someone solo a grim chaser without usein a map exploit :lol: or last longer than 5 mins in an OP war. PPUs need to be ingame and stay as they are ggnore ;)
Bugs gunny, i made a post just like yours realy. I got no response. Wish you good luck.Same old story. :)
I too would like to see what KKs stance is on this subject as well as the status or some news of any sort on the issue of Item Tracking.
/me wants Nids ask the devs stuff back as weel as the rather frequent community updates we got from him when he first became Community Liason.
lol another "please take ppus out of the game or im going to cry" thread :rolleyes: guys PPUs need to be ingame, cos i would love to see someone solo a grim chaser without usein a map exploit :lol: or last longer than 5 mins in an OP war. PPUs need to be ingame and stay as they are ggnore ;)
As said time and time again....
Mobs were only increased to the damage they are now BECAUSE of the ppu.
Early NC you could solo most creatures within reason, a Grim wouldnt own you in 3 stacks of fire but you couldnt stand there for 25 stacks but you could at least have a good chance of fighting it without a ppu, now you just need one to do everything unless you exploit the map, which is shit for people who dont get the luxury of ppu support....
And i dont recall many people complaining about the speed of op wars back in early Nc1.... infact a alot of people would probably agree there were some of the best op wars.
I dont mind longer wars but its boring and dull chasing some holy buffed butt plugged apu around for half hour trying to kill them and then same for the ppu who's left standing.
Since Nidhogg is going to ask KK about the hacknet issues and provide us some feedback, i was wondering :
Can you also ask KK what their stance on ppus is now?
A while ago they acknowledged they were a problem, do they still feel the same way?
Are they going to do something about them if they still feel they are an issue?
In hopes that an official answer might clear the forums of the countless ppu nerf threads. All the possible ideas (and some good ones) have been discussed, and even though i don't like ppus much i'm going to KOS the next person that starts a thread about them.
you mean there are actualy people not on ur KoS list
lol another "please take ppus out of the game or im going to cry" thread :rolleyes: guys PPUs need to be ingame, cos i would love to see someone solo a grim chaser without usein a map exploit :lol: or last longer than 5 mins in an OP war. PPUs need to be ingame and stay as they are ggnore ;)
erm... the things the size of a fucking house... ur not suposed to keel em unless ur in a vhc. or out ranging them... that arguments stupid.. there are things stronger than humans out there. thats why we invented fucking vhc's
EDIT
SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT SHIT
i ment to edit that into my last post
2 doubble posts in 2 days
keeeeeel me
lol another "please take ppus out of the game or im going to cry" thread :rolleyes: guys PPUs need to be ingame, cos i would love to see someone solo a grim chaser without usein a map exploit :lol: or last longer than 5 mins in an OP war. PPUs need to be ingame and stay as they are ggnore ;)
[ edited ]
1.) he was asking for an official anouncement about the ppus. whine thread about ppus? hell yea, coz he would like to read something official instead of all those whine-threads :rolleyes: ...
2.) i solo a grim chaser on my tank, apu, spy, pe, whatever u want. uuuhhhhh soloing mobs is so damn hard, isnt it?
3.) op-wars? you seem to be a new player. in the past (when ppus were not ig) op-fights lasted as long as they do now.
there is no real reason for ppus to be ingame :rolleyes: .
Its not the games fault people are just too scared to go to MB without a PPU.
its the games fault that your team is 10 times as effective when everyone has a ppu up his ass.
solo a grim chaser? no problem. just use cover to heal. you can't just stand in front of a mob as high as a house and kill it? tough luck.
lol seems i hit a nerve :lol:
So let me figure this out, you want to git rid of PPUs or nerf them so they are allmost useless, then lower the levels and damg of most mobs back to nc beta 3, and then you would have to reduce the damg of most weapons aswell to balance it out. :rolleyes: lol im sorry but if KK do all that they must be able to sort out some of the bugs :lol:
/vote keep ppus how they are and fix the on-going bugs ingame ;)
So let me figure this out, you want to git rid of PPUs or nerf them so they are allmost useless, then lower the levels and damg of most mobs back to nc beta 3, and then you would have to reduce the damg of most weapons aswell to balance it out.
who said they should be almost useless? there's something in between "you need a monk up your arse to be viable" and "almost useless". try to figure out what that is ;)
btw, you wouldnt have to reduce damage of weapons at all. PvP without ppus is fine, PvM without ppus is fine except a few places. try to argue without exaggerating everything.
...if i were KK, i would never ever announce any change on monks, cause the storm of whining would beat katrina or any of her evil sisters. instead i would introduce all changes quietly and step by step. and i bet thats what they do.
yeah, they do it THAT quiet one could think nothing happens at all :D
try to argue without exaggerating everything.
O_o just was copping what everyone has said in this thread and others, and thats what they all say?!?
Would you still play if PPUs were left how they are? i can see 2 or 3 leave but not alot, but if you got rid/nurfed them alot more people would leave and KK wouldnt do that to themselfs cos they are not dumb unlike alot of these PPU nerf threads ;)
...if i were KK, i would never ever announce any change on monks, cause the storm of whining would beat katrina or any of her evil sisters. instead i would introduce all changes quietly and step by step. and i bet thats what they do.I would have thought that would simply make people whine many times more than normal, because they'll be whining about each change as it happens instead of many changes at once.
O_o just was copping what everyone has said in this thread and others, and thats what they all say?!?
no its not. but if you dont know the difference between nerfing something and balancing it, we can stop argueing right here.
Would you still play if PPUs were left how they are?
I quit NC at the end of NC1 because of PPUs / unbalanced PvP
i can see 2 or 3 leave but not alot, but if you got rid/nurfed them alot more people would leave and KK wouldnt do that to themselfs cos they are not dumb unlike alot of these PPU nerf threads ;)
thats an assumption of you, nothing more. I've been playing nc when there were 500+ people on a server - they probably all left because everything with NC is fine the way it is. (and no, they didnt all leave because of the ppu either, but I guess some would have stayed if PvP was balanced)
edit: I forgot the mandatory smiley: ;)
O_o just was copping what everyone has said in this thread and others, and thats what they all say?!?
Would you still play if PPUs were left how they are? i can see 2 or 3 leave but not alot, but if you got rid/nurfed them alot more people would leave and KK wouldnt do that to themselfs cos they are not dumb unlike alot of these PPU nerf threads ;) i for one don't play much any more because of it, and there's prolly a lot of people that would come back if they were nerfed
If PPUs are removed, they should remove all ppu spells as well, say goodbye to TL3 heal and all your newbie deflectors.
Everyones been whining about ppus for so damn long but I can't remember ever hearing a group say "Oh a ppu wants to join our group? WTFz?!?! I hate ppu's I want to rough it out and go caving commando while we're at it!"
If they change the ppu class they might as well just remove foreign cast of all the ppu spells, give us the ability to use some nice weapons, and let us go at it like everyone else. It's not always very fun to play a PPU you know, I get excited when I swat a tank for 35 points.
Yhe thats a good point, ive never im my whole nc life ever heard anyone say no to a PPU joining a group for OP wars or Hunting, if anything ive never realy seen a group go to an OP war without a PPU? (only if they are ninjain it :rolleyes: ) think people should let it be for now and see what KK do with the next few patches before startin another "nerf PPU thread" :p
Yhe thats a good point, ive never im my whole nc life ever heard anyone say no to a PPU joining a group for OP wars or Hunting, if anything ive never realy seen a group go to an OP war without a PPU? (only if they are ninjain it :rolleyes: ) think people should let it be for now and see what KK do with the next few patches before startin another "nerf PPU thread" :p
I've seen PPUs not wanted in groups... when the PPUs outnumbered the damage dealers. :mad:
Hell, I remember OP warring in a small clan on Pluto a few months before NC2... the clan had like 5 PPUs and 3 damage dealers (and one was a droner, one apu and one pe)... we wanted the PPUs to make non-PPU characters so we could win OP wars. :lol:
if anything ive never realy seen a group go to an OP war without a PPU?
and how is that an argument that ppus are balanced? I'd say its the exact opposite.
some people can't see the wood for the trees ...
If PPUs are removed, they should remove all ppu spells as well, say goodbye to TL3 heal and all your newbie deflectors.
noone is talking about removing ppus. at least not seriously, because we can't just remove a class. but if I had to choose between neocron with the ppus as they are atm, and neocron without ppus and without all ppu spells - my choice would be easy.
edit: @BugsGunny: ok .. I've said everything I wanted anyway, and more than once ..
Bugs Gunny
06-01-06, 01:44
Let's not turn this into another nerf ppu because of "insert reason".
It was an open question to KK about some statements their officials made a while ago.
All i've seen them do since then is give monks a gaia glove and remove the sl loss ppus get for using parashock on allieds-neutrals.
Scanner Darkly
06-01-06, 02:49
Going by the last couple of plan files, it doesn't appear that monk balancing/nerfing is currently on Reakktor's agenda. I guess that's about as official statement as we're going to get.
I love being proved wrong, so please do so mods/devs. :angel:
Clive tombstone
06-01-06, 03:26
Put it to the test:
Give tanks a moonstriker mod that kills everything in the blast radius in one shot.
Go watch an opwar two weeks later :angel:
I was gonna post about something else, but this caught my eye, hehe. like my old threads, Explosives would be a nice addition, and not like something you "throw", more like something that you could plant and make "da big BOOM" something to "clear the floor or something, doing HUGE damage, but noticeble "beeps" heheh
anywho, back on topic. Ive never been a huge fan of PPU's but seeing monsters that can one hit people, They seem like a neccisary evil sadly.
As for suggestions for that, Im outa ideas :(
heh, i have just remembered player shops case...
"what? ppus? that issue was dropped ages ago..." :lol:
THE_TICK!!!!
06-01-06, 11:02
Thats the reason a PPU nerf wont help anything.
The only way to stop people whoring PPUs is to remove them, which im becoming more inclined to everyday. AND when they do that the PE will be the new PPU, its all relavent, a puss is a puss is a puss, thats all there is to it.
AND when they do that the PE will be the new PPU, its all relavent, a puss is a puss is a puss, thats all there is to it.
Exactly what i've said before :D
Remove Holy spells as suggested elsewhere then Blesseds become the favoured PPu at an OP war.
Remove the PPU then as said the PE will be the new PPU with DB and all.
so remove PE? then SPY :lol:
1,500 :rolleyes:
Bugs Gunny
06-01-06, 15:28
You won't see a pe-apu team take on 10 normal fighters with ease.
THE_TICK!!!!
06-01-06, 15:42
bro sorry to say but if a pe apu team kills ten fighters then they SUCK !! and a pe apu combo will beat a apu combo any day
also a pe apu combo will beat a tank, spy or whatever, cause the ppu can HEAL and shelt def, and fight unlike the ppu.
Bugs Gunny
06-01-06, 15:55
Tick, lay off the booze, you make no sense :-)
I'm saying that people using the "the pe will be the new ppu so there's no point" argument are wrong.
Right now a good apu-ppu team will waste 10 fighters. I've seen it done. When the apu actualy runs around his ppu using him as cover and they both go inside the group of fighters it's easy as hell.
If the pe becomes the new ppu, then i'd like to see the pe-apu team take on those same 10 fighters. And yes, i know that even a nibshelter gives a lot of defence, but a tl10 heal won't ever outheal two people shooting the apu like a holy heal would.
People who support ppus cannot be swayed. They think op wars will only last 10 seconds and that PEs will take over the world with their stealth and tl10 heal.
Bugs Gunny
06-01-06, 16:14
Pokers will take over the world :-)
Actualy i've noticed that waiting for a rez usualy takes longer than getting poked up and gring back in when it's a long fight.
Pokers will take over the world :-)
Actualy i've noticed that waiting for a rez usualy takes longer than getting poked up and gring back in when it's a long fight.
as we saw by the NC SCAMMERS thread
some people have no friends so if they pop a mc5 and it breaks.... then they will never beable to get it repaired from fear of sumbody stealing it
=] i dont use mc5's in anything buy my hyb monk so i always genrep and get a repoke. no point waiting to be rezzed it takes to long
tank aint got room. waste of space in my pe n my spys a droner. so easy to cap anyway. n the rest of em just plain dont need one
Bugs Gunny
06-01-06, 16:27
When you played the game long enough to have gotten an MC5 chip, trust me you DO have some friends.
Only way you're gonna get an mc5 chip is getting it donated by a FRIEND, doing a shitload of MC5 with a FRIEND and having the parts researched by a RELIABLE person.
Only other way i can think you have an mc5 chip without having friends is if you stole it yourself in the first place.
When you played the game long enough to have gotten an MC5 chip, trust me you DO have some friends.
Only way you're gonna get an mc5 chip is getting it donated by a FRIEND, doing a shitload of MC5 with a FRIEND and having the parts researched by a RELIABLE person.
Only other way i can think you have an mc5 chip without having friends is if you stole it yourself in the first place.
thats kinda like i was saying in the scammers thread... there saying nc is full of scammers
who gives a fuck if u lose a tl 12 pistol to a scammer..,. and whos gona scamm an expensive item like a 5slot cs or a mc5 because having one of them items means u should by now have alot o friends =P
whenever i get summin expensive i sell it to feed my vhc obsession
they keep getting blowen up :'(
Bugs Gunny
06-01-06, 16:52
i know your pain.
I keep losing vehicles too.
I have only just returned to NC, after 2 years away, I was a PPU then, and am a PPU now...
All these cries of nerf the PPU, have you ever played a PPU?? It is by far the least entertaining class ever...
I cant level solo, I cant damage anyone...infact im redundant without any other players.... all in all unless my neocron friends are online i sit in TH spamming....
There is a reward, and should be a reward for being able to do fk all damage, and taking forever levelling in that you are a damn site harder to kill..
After seeing the Hybrid slowly wiped (admitedly deserved) it would be sad to see yet another nerf happening to a well established class....
The PPU is fine as it is, at Op wars I run about healing and trying to save my ass, thats it....I dont get the thrill of chasing people ganking them...I dont get the thrill of the fight, I just kinda run around healing and occasionally making pretty glitter balls in my hand...
Thats my thoughts anyway
u do realise that ppus (evil gits) can drive and gun vhcs to =]
u put a ppu on the back of a bike then u get some pritty devistating firepower
awkward silence
06-01-06, 20:03
You won't see a pe-apu team take on 10 normal fighters with ease.
Have i mentioned how much i love you mate?
lol another "please take ppus out of the game or im going to cry" thread :rolleyes: guys PPUs need to be ingame, cos i would love to see someone solo a grim chaser without usein a map exploit :lol: or last longer than 5 mins in an OP war. PPUs need to be ingame and stay as they are ggnore ;)
-----
1.) he was asking for an official anouncement about the ppus. whine thread about ppus? hell yea, coz he would like to read something official instead of all those whine-threads ...
2.) i solo a grim chaser on my tank, apu, spy, pe, whatever u want. uuuhhhhh soloing mobs is so damn hard, isnt it?
3.) op-wars? you seem to be a new player. in the past (when ppus were not ig) op-fights lasted as long as they do now.
there is no real reason for ppus to be ingame .
In responce to 1,2,3.
1) If they've responded once they probably wont do again this topic is so old it wouldnt suprize me if they ignored it.
2) I've solo'd grims, infact I capped my PE killing grims and everything it's called using cover EG: shot, run, heal, shot, run, heal. Or with my tank, using a vehicle (driving and shooting)
3) PPU's do have a lot to offer however I think everything went wrong when the spirit mod was nerfed/removed. <-- if you remember it then you'll remember it removed def, and shelter, almost like a normal persons anti buff. Very useful for killing ppu's and a good idea really perhaps it had a problem in that it over powered tanks in that they could lower a spies/pe's resists while the same ammo had no real affect on them? I don't know the reasons but I'm pretty sure if we could all kill a ppu with a little effort then they wouldn't be so grand anymore?
PPU Pros: Can help you level, can rezz, can buff tanks and apus, can aid trade skillers.
Cons: Can't really be killed by anyone but apus, ppu's seem to be needed for fights.
Not that it matters this is just one in a long line of threads on ppus it wont make a difference unless KK want to make a difference...
I have only just returned to NC, after 2 years away, I was a PPU then, and am a PPU now...
All these cries of nerf the PPU, have you ever played a PPU?? It is by far the least entertaining class ever...
You have 3 other character slots don't you? Noones forcing you to play a PPU.
If it's the "least entertaining" class then why do you keep playing it?
I cant level solo, I cant damage anyone...infact im redundant without any other players.... all in all unless my neocron friends are online i sit in TH spamming....
Actually at least half of my tech parts have come from soloing, and at least half of the people I've killed I've killed solo :P Don't underestimate the ability of a capped TL17 sword combined Holy Para. People won't try to escape until they realize you're actually starting to hurt and by then holy para keeps em from leaving fast enough.
Granted the only time solo pvp becomes relevant is when some retard tries to jump you when you're soloing, but at least you can do something about it even if it takes 3-5 minutes :D
u do realise that ppus (evil gits) can drive and gun vhcs to =]
u put a ppu on the back of a bike then u get some pritty devistating firepower
Combat hovertec + PPU = OMG OVERPOWERED!!!!111
People who support ppus cannot be swayed. They think op wars will only last 10 seconds and that PEs will take over the world with their stealth and tl10 heal. if there were no ppus, apus would die as fast as they are supposed to then the op war will last longer than 10 seconds because there are no HL lamers alive
if there were no ppus, apus would die as fast as they are supposed to then the op war will last longer than 10 seconds because there are no HL lamers alive
there is a way to test these things, make neptune a test server and then kk can play around with some of these ideas
there is a way to test these things, make neptune a test server and then kk can play around with some of these ideas
word. make neptune a test server.
Bugs Gunny
09-01-06, 20:35
Make neptune a no ppu server and i'll move there without looking back.
Damn... you guys must really suck that can't take down PPU's. PPU's aren't overpowered, they can be taken down easily enough if you have any tactics what so ever, because you are a solo pker it doesn't mean they have to nerf the ppu's so you will be able to kill one all by yourself.
awkward silence
09-01-06, 21:11
Make neptune a no ppu server and i'll move there without looking back.
I love you even more ;)
Damn i feek like a stalker :p
Damn... you guys must really suck that can't take down PPU's. PPU's aren't overpowered, they can be taken down easily enough if you have any tactics what so ever, because you are a solo pker it doesn't mean they have to nerf the ppu's so you will be able to kill one all by yourself.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT IT IS A MATTER OF SKILLSSSSS AND TACTICS. Your keen observation skills have saved the day, thank you we all owe you a very large debt. I hope you put your mastered skills of misinterpretation to use for the greater good.
awkward silence
09-01-06, 21:18
Damn... you guys must really suck that can't take down PPU's. PPU's aren't overpowered, they can be taken down easily enough if you have any tactics what so ever, because you are a solo pker it doesn't mean they have to nerf the ppu's so you will be able to kill one all by yourself.
Thats a pointless argument... what tactics !?!?!?!?!
We have no tactics against PPUs. Antipara is crap if you have a ppu cast para on ya twice after youve taken the drug for the fifth time.
Again what tactics? Only APU's have a valid tactic against PPUs, and that makes apu/ppu combos/teams beyond godlike.
Explain your tactics, if you actually have any. BS if i heard any TBH.
YOU ARE SO RIGHT IT IS A MATTER OF SKILLSSSSS AND TACTICS. Your keen observation skills have saved the day, thank you we all owe you a very large debt. I hope you put your mastered skills of misinterpretation to use for the greater good.
Of course it's skills and tactics, you think you get anywhere in any game without proper skills and tactics? Well if you don't got that I guess you could go back to solitaire where all the "nerf the ppu" wannabes should go and rethink.
awkward silence
09-01-06, 21:19
YOU ARE SO RIGHT IT IS A MATTER OF SKILLSSSSS AND TACTICS. Your keen observation skills have saved the day, thank you we all owe you a very large debt. I hope you put your mastered skills of misinterpretation to use for the greater good.
The way you said it is pure art of irony if i ever heard any.
Well met
Thats a pointless argument... what tactics !?!?!?!?!
We have no tactics against PPUs. Antipara is crap if you have a ppu cast para on ya twice after youve taken the drug for the fifth time.
Again what tactics? Only APU's have a valid tactic against PPUs, and that makes apu/ppu combos/teams beyond godlike.
Explain your tactics, if you actually have any. BS if i heard any TBH.
Tactics, ok, he is one for example, put a shit heal on the ppu, have an apu remove his shields, put shit shields on him, have a go on him and he's dead in no time. Now that's one and there are a zillion more, but hey, if you can't come up with any I guess you shouldn't be here in the first place.
Tactics, ok, he is one for example, put a shit heal on the ppu, have an apu remove his shields, put shit shields on him, have a go on him and he's dead in no time. Now that's one and there are a zillion more, but hey, if you can't come up with any I guess you shouldn't be here in the first place.
Noob buffing, are you sure you can give that secret tactic away without revolutionizing the pvp scene?
Noob buffing, are you sure you can give that secret tactic away without revolutionizing the pvp scene?
Well, I just told you one way to kill a ppu, there are more ways and where "Noob buffing" isn't involved and a simple way I might add, so why nerf the ppu's?
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Ok I'm sorry for saying everyone sucks, and then bragging about my leet skills and tactics. Oh wait that was somebody else.
awkward silence
09-01-06, 22:09
Is it me or is that guy only worth ignoring? Not really his opinions but the way they are expressed.
Ok I'm sorry for saying everyone sucks, and then bragging about my leet skills and tactics. Oh wait that was somebody else.
No, I'm not saying everyone sucks, I only told those who are whining about PPU's that sucks and that is an OPINION I have the right to have.
And I dont say I got leet skills and tactics, what I'm trying to say is that there are ways to kill PPU's.
And I have no idea why my first statement did such great effect on you, gosh, I wonder why...
And I have no idea why my first statement did such great effect on you, gosh, I wonder why...
Maybe because it's the same thing other people post all the time in every ppu thread. It doesn't really add anything to the debate, just because the problem isn't apparent to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
No, I'm not saying everyone sucks, I only told those who are whining about PPU's that sucks and that is an OPINION I have the right to have.
And I dont say I got leet skills and tactics, what I'm trying to say is that there are ways to kill PPU's.
And I have no idea why my first statement did such great effect on you, gosh, I wonder why...
I'm not sure you understand people's points here, the point isn't that they can't kill ppus, its that ppus give too much of an advantage to the side that has them. So yea you can kill the ppu, but while you're setting all this up any half decent team will have destroyed you in the mean time.
EX: You have 2 tanks, an apu, and a pe. you're fighting an apu and a ppu. While you're running around trying to get off your nub shelter and what not the ppu has everyone glued to the floor and the apu is going through you like you're made of wet tissue paper. When people want a ppu fix they don't mean make ppus less hard to kill (or at least thats not what I want) I really want a reduction for forign heals and a removel of para.
Maybe because it's the same thing other people post all the time in every ppu thread. It doesn't really add anything to the debate, just because the problem isn't apparent to you doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I see your point of view, then I hope you understand my point of view, all these anti-ppu threads that has been popping up a lot lately that doesn't really add anything to debate since it has already or is being debated already in previous threads, we're in the same boat but I'm sitting on the other side of it.
Tactics, ok, he is one for example, put a shit heal on the ppu, have an apu remove his shields, put shit shields on him, have a go on him and he's dead in no time. Now that's one and there are a zillion more, but hey, if you can't come up with any I guess you shouldn't be here in the first place.
And now that the ppu has put up their own shields after being antibuffed, the apu (s)he was teamed with has just killed your entire team.
That's of course, assuming you have don't have a ppu on your side. Because we both know that "bring ppus to fight ppus" isn't an argument.
And now that the ppu has put up their own shields after being antibuffed, the apu (s)he was teamed with has just killed your entire team.
That's of course, assuming you have don't have a ppu on your side. Because we both know that "bring ppus to fight ppus" isn't an argument.
if they have the antishield + newbshield timed even halfway decent it'll probably always land unless the ppu was explicitly waiting for it to happen..
they're talking about 2 people vs 1 ppu, so theres really no way for the ppu to counteract a coordinated strike like that..
Well who cares about 1 ppu by themselves? Besides, 2 people vs. 1 ppu, I think it'd be safe to assume that the ppu is waiting for the antishield to come.
Damn... you guys must really suck that can't take down PPU's. PPU's aren't overpowered, they can be taken down easily enough if you have any tactics what so ever, because you are a solo pker it doesn't mean they have to nerf the ppu's so you will be able to kill one all by yourself. no one is whining about how long PPUs can keep themselves alive, it's how much they can keep their friends alive
rob444... I took the liberty of drawing a simple diagram to put emphasis on the above statement:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gibsnag/ppupoint.GIF
rob444... I took the liberty of drawing a simple diagram to put emphasis on the above statement:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gibsnag/ppupoint.GIF
:lol: i love that.
Also and just wondering... has anyone been hired to fill in for dirus?
what?? dirus left? or they left him?
Maybe im mising some people up or somthing but i think someone left reaktor or was fired for one reason or another.
Anyone know?
You mean, like rats leaving a sinking ship ? :eek:
Bugs Gunny
11-01-06, 09:07
Oh my god, the only one at KK that knew the gamemechanics and i actualy would trust with the ballancing.
Dargeshaad
11-01-06, 09:45
:lol: i love that.
Also and just wondering... has anyone been hired to fill in for dirus?
I believe you're thinking of Callash, Dirus is still working for kk as far as I know.....although it wouldn't surprise me if he did leave :rolleyes:
i've come to the conclusion that anyone who is pro PPU is LEed, or a monk
rob444... I took the liberty of drawing a simple diagram to put emphasis on the above statement
Nice drawing, I wonder how many copyright violations you did just there, anyway.. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, my point is far from what point? Please fill me in.
i've come to the conclusion that anyone who is pro PPU is LEed, or a monk
thats the wrong additude, there is no pro ppu or anti ppus (or there shouldn't be) I am pro balancing all classes
Tbh this thread is BS, all classes have the advantages, tanks can take alot of damg and deal alot of damg, Apus can deal a shit load of damg, PEs can use everything (cept APU shit), SPYs can ress a weapon, cst it and then use it in Fights, and then stealth when the heat is gettin to hot, and PPUs can look after themselfs, and others, and hack for example. Now gettin rid of one of these classes would change the game so much all the others would be affected, APUs would get owned so fast, PEs would be the new PPU, tanks would be the strongest class, turning it into tank0cron again.
This would take alot of doing on KK end, and tbh if they dont have the man power to fix frt's then how can they input/delete all that codein?
Dont like it go play EQ2 imo ;)
Too many things I want to comment on here. I'll just say @ the guy who said it's possible to kill a PPU with some tactics, do you expect everyone to run around with an APU just to have the slightest chance in hell of killing a PPU?
If so then its not really going to get anyone anywhere with balancing.
Besides, if that fails then you may aswell walk away. Otherwise you're just wasting ammo.
In my opinion, a PPU shouldn't die to one or two people just from simply being blasted at.
However, they shouldn't then be able to share this ability with a few other players just because they call it PvP.
It's going to be fucking hard to solve this problem.
/edit
Nice drawing, I wonder how many copyright violations you did just there
Was that meant to be a comeback ? O_o
I thought that picture was actually quite hilarious.
i've come to the conclusion that anyone who is pro PPU is LEed, or a monk
I started a le'd pro pe... and tbh having a damn sight more fun than attempting to pvp in the monk retarded shit lol
i went to a op war on my tank the other day and it was 1 spy... 1 tank and every one else was monks, hybs, ppus with the odd apu...
if the other classes were so finely balance explained why they never feel to participate in op wars over a apu or a hybrid or a ppu.... the spy was a sniper btw and sat well out on a hill and was picking of half dead stragglers...my melee tank was fucked the minute he got glued, fight lasted maybe 20 seconds top before i got debuffed noob buffed and killed and that was my last op war for this month
Tbh this thread is BS, all classes have the advantages, tanks can take alot of damg and deal alot of damg, Apus can deal a shit load of damg, PEs can use everything (cept APU shit), SPYs can ress a weapon, cst it and then use it in Fights, and then stealth when the heat is gettin to hot, and PPUs can look after themselfs, and others, and hack for example. Now gettin rid of one of these classes would change the game so much all the others would be affected, APUs would get owned so fast, PEs would be the new PPU, tanks would be the strongest class, turning it into tank0cron again.
have you ever actually played NC? the only affect of nerfing PPUs would be that the lamers who use them constantly would be fucked because they never had any skill in the first place. And as for PPUs being able to help others, what about their para db someone to make them useless to the extent that it looks like they fell down the nerf tree and hit every stick on the way down? The fact of the matter is that as soon as PPUs come into the equation, everything becomes unbalanced because the classes with shitty defence (aka apus) get such a huge boost from the primes, sd that they have tank defence. And it's pretty ridiculous that if you want to kill things in OP wars where ppus are involved, you need to be an apu or the enemy are just gonna shit themselves laughing at your dmg. Anyone who has ever been to an OP war could tell you that it's the apus that decide the outcome of the battle
have i ever played NC? lmao
If you know what your talking about you would know just havin primes and s/d doesnt make a APU like a tank with primes and s/d. Without a heal you can drop a APU with full buffs easy.
S
tarting to think that the people crying about PPUs cant even kill a buffed apu let alone a buffed PPU, people get some skills, then start this thread again when you know what your talking about.
have i ever played NC? lmao
If you know what your talking about you would know just havin primes and s/d doesnt make a APU like a tank with primes and s/d. Without a heal you can drop a APU with full buffs easy.
Starting to think that the people crying about PPUs cant even kill a buffed apu let alone a buffed PPU, people get some skills, then start this thread again when you know what your talking about.
Holy heals are the main part of the problem. You cant just leave them out becouse you want to.
have i ever played NC? lmao
If you know what your talking about you would know just havin primes and s/d doesnt make a APU like a tank with primes and s/d. Without a heal you can drop a APU with full buffs easy.
S
tarting to think that the people crying about PPUs cant even kill a buffed apu let alone a buffed PPU, people get some skills, then start this thread again when you know what your talking about. you've played anything other than apu have you?
Holy heals are the main part of the problem. You cant just leave them out becouse you want to.
Did you read what i said?
Yes with holy heal its alot harder to drop runners but you still can, n00b heal, antibuff, DB theres a few of the top of my head, and as far as killin buffed PPUs with out a APU, thats easy, just need to n00b heal and spam PPU will drop before he knows what hit him, not hard if you have a brain :lol:
/@ giga, my main char is a HC tank has been since day 3 of retail nc1, and killed alot of PPUs, so your point is?....
I completely agree with Giga, you're wrong.
I saw almost the samething at an OPwar.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/Steve1821/Monkocron.jpg
Do I honestly need to say more?
This situation is getting out of hand.
Oh and btw, the OPPOSITION wern't even there ! (As you can see)
If this is going to be the OPwar situation of the future, I'm not even going to bother with them.
Is there anyone who thinks theres nothing wrong with that picture?
/edit:
Did you read what i said?
Yes with holy heal its alot harder to drop runners but you still can, n00b heal, antibuff, DB theres a few of the top of my head, and as far as killin buffed PPUs with out a APU, thats easy, just need to n00b heal and spam PPU will drop before he knows what hit him, not hard if you have a brain
You clearly haven't killed a GOOD PPU with a noob heal. There's a massive difference between a good PPU and a guy whos just leveled an APU and lommed him to PPU without experience using them.
I can't explain to you how stupid that comment looks. I really can't...
If it was that simple, then why are there debates, with threads this long, with people getting this pissed off, with people quitting over it? With people KoSing PPU nerf thread makers because theres just so damn many threads about it?
I'm almost certain I've seen somewhere someone from KK admitted theres a problem.
But no, of course everyones wrong and you're right. Theres no PPU problem ! Just noob heal !
yeh there is something wrong, theres red spray paint on the screen :rolleyes:, i seem to rember the days when there was like 1 PPU and 8 tanks and a spy and maybe a PE in OP wars, now its just changed to monks, and theres not loads of PPUs before anyone says, a good clan will have one PPU for every 2/3 runners, and if they were that overpowerd you wouldnt need more than one, so if anything your just showing a pic of a clan with alot of APUs and a few PPUs so dont see your point?
yeh there is something wrong, theres red spray paint on the screen :rolleyes:, i seem to rember the days when there was like 1 PPU and 8 tanks and a spy and maybe a PE in OP wars, now its just changed to monks, and theres not loads of PPUs before anyone says, a good clan will have one PPU for every 2/3 runners ***(Who will be APUs, as you can see from my screenie)***, and if they were that overpowerd you wouldnt need more than one, so if anything your just showing a pic of a clan with alot of APUs and a few PPUs so dont see your point?
THANK YOU.
That screenie was everyone inside Cycrow. Why do you not see any PEs, only one spy (who was a trader actually) and one tank? Who was a melee tank.
Now I ask you AGAIN, what do you see wrong about that picture? (Besides the red paint :p )
It is so old news.
http://mercury.walagata.com/w/foobar/party.jpg
I posted (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1303414&postcount=42) above image in March '04. Still hasn't changed much. It's been a problem then, it's still a problem now and will be a problem in '08
lmao the sex and pant drop mock lol now thats old school Black cartel mock, and tbh thats a good point, it was alot harder back then to kill a PPU than it is now, i havent been in a fight since ive come back that a PPU hasnt died, and not because they were crap, it was becuase the people who killed them knew how to and didnt cry if one got away.
Gettin sick of the same old, we cant kill PPUs so nerf or remove them cos i cant make one cos then i would look like a prock for going on about it for months cry cry cry mummy cry cry cry. :(
Grow up, get on with it and stfu, if KK are going to do anything about it they will, you crying about it wont make them do it any faster and im sure nid and the rest of the mods are gettin pissed of reading your crap day after day saying the same things again and again.
Nid please say if im wrong ;)
I like how you resort to the usual "cry more noob wawawawawa go home to mummy" last-resort after you just can't disprove everything I and hell of a lot of other people have said.
But yeah, of course you could prove me wrong anytime, but you're just 'not going to bother with a stupid n00b' anymore, right? :rolleyes:
/edit,
I have NEVER said NERF or REMOVE PPUS. I've never suggested anything in this thread, but my opinion is to bring them to an EQUAL level with other classes.
Like a smart guy said in another thread (can't remember who it was), there is a HUGE difference between balancing and nerfing something.
If KK gets pissed off with us, good. It might make them take this more seriously (if they arn't taking it serious at the moment. Besides, I think the forums are meant for discussing topics about the game, right?)
You do know people have quit over this PPU situation?
When we 'cried and cried to mummy' about the reload issue, it got fixed.
ONLY problem here is this is so so much harder to fix than changing numbers in a reload sequence.
k not going to say this again, if you cant kill a PPU than keep you LE in, becuase you have made your point, i have made mine so why keep goin on? :rolleyes:
Grow up, get on with it and stfu, if KK are going to do anything about it they will, you crying about it wont make them do it any faster and im sure nid and the rest of the mods are gettin pissed of reading your crap day after day saying the same things again and again.
Nid please say if im wrong ;)
I am sure Nidd understands its a discussion forum about Neocron and if people wish to continually discuss PPUs they are entitled to do so.... hence why there isnt no "Another ppu thread - closed" thing going on from the mods ;)
You still missing the point, people arent moaning about not killing a ppu, moaning about the fact they can turn the Highest Damge Weakest defense class into Highest Damage high defense class....
and i dunno if you know this but Holy Shetler/Holy Deflect = 75% resist - the malus for foreign which you make up for with con/armour you left with what is is effectively tanks natural resist and a bit more with Holy Lightning... the highest damaging weapon in the game.... add on that holy heal....
Theres no point in bringing a tank or a spy or something unless you wish to be different, when a apu has such great defense from a ppu and his own setup and has a higher damaging rare, which dosent need to reload and takes like 2/3 seconds a cast if that and as said below no reticle ;)
I am sure Nidd understands its a discussion forum about Neocron and if people wish to continually discuss PPUs they are entitled to do so.... hence why there isnt no "Another ppu thread - closed" thing going on from the mods ;)
You still missing the point, people arent moaning about not killing a ppu, moaning about the fact they can turn the Highest Damge Weakest defense class into Highest Damage high defense class....
and i dunno if you know this but Holy Shetler/Holy Deflect = 75% resist - the malus for foreign which you make up for with con/armour you left with what is is effectively tanks natural resist and a bit more with Holy Lightning... the highest damaging weapon in the game.... add on that holy heal....
THE POINT IS WHY BRING A TANK/SPY/PE WHEN YOU CAN BRING A MONK AND BE LIKE A TANK WITH HIGHER DAMGE
And no reticle.
Theres no point in bringing a tank or a spy or something unless you wish to be different, when a apu has such great defense from a ppu and his own setup and has a higher damaging rare, which dosent need to reload and takes like 2/3 seconds a cast if that and as said below no reticle ;)
ok nerf APUs and keep PPUs? because this all comes down to making the crappy apus l33t with ppu buffs so just take out APUs or make them do less damg.
Ohhhh but wait that will upset people who have APUs, but nerfing PPUs will upset others, so keep them how they are then a few people are upset, give them a cookie and tell them its been like that since they started playing so live with it.
Thats the choice KK has, and to me keeping them how they are is the only way keeping 95% happy, so it wins ;)
And as far as not worth taking a tank to OP fights, BS tbh, spys and tanks and even PEs can mean the difference between winning or not winning. And if you think im rong you dont know how to play this game, its allways going to be Monk0cron, Tank0cron, PEoCron or Spy0cron, allways been one and atm its monk0cron so live with it till something new comes out that makes another class l33t.
RogerRamjet
11-01-06, 16:59
It is so old news.
http://mercury.walagata.com/w/foobar/party.jpg
I posted (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1303414&postcount=42) above image in March '04. Still hasn't changed much. It's been a problem then, it's still a problem now and will be a problem in '08
The problem (on saturn) was surely well before March 04. I remember fighting ASEN and them being pure APU and PPU.
k not going to say this again, if you cant kill a PPU than keep you LE in, becuase you have made your point, i have made mine so why keep goin on? :rolleyes: for the 50th time, no one is whining about killing PPUs. It's the fact that any old retard can lvl an apu, and look like god if he has a ppu on his ass. There is something completely out of place about that in a game that supposedly requires player skill. If your so carebear about dying that you need ppus and getting owned by people better than you then go play WoW.
i don't think i've ever met anyone so scared of change...8|
And i don't care if once upon a time you killed a shitty ppu or ppu buffed apu because 99% of the time that doesn't happen. No it's not just apus that are the problem, it's that PPUs do so that you need to be an apu to do decent enough dmg to kill other ppu buffed players
for the 50th time, no one is whining about killing PPUs. It's the fact that any old retard can lvl an apu, and look like god if he has a ppu on his ass. There is something completely out of place about that in a game that supposedly requires player skill. If your so carebear about dying that you need ppus and getting owned by people better than you then go play WoW.
i don't think i've ever met anyone so scared of change...8|
And i don't care if once upon a time you killed a shitty ppu or ppu buffed apu because 99% of the time that doesn't happen. No it's not just apus that are the problem, it's that PPUs do so that you need to be an apu to do decent enough dmg to kill other ppu buffed players
:lol: carebear
:lol: scared of change
:lol: need a PPU
:lol: WoW
lol nice mocking, shame non of the above applys to me, ive allways ran around on my on in OP wars on my tank, gettin kills and gettin killed, only need a PPU to ress and heal now and then, and as far as scared of change goes, dont give a shit tbh, just love seein people like yourself get so worked up about something so small, PPUs arnt the problem, APUs arnt the problem, the problem is people like you wanting change because they cant have it their way, its just not fair is it :rolleyes:
People whined,
people begged,
people threatend,
In the old days,
nowadays,
in the future days.
People made good suggestions,
people made bad suggestions.
In the old days,
nowadays,
in the future days.
People come to play nc - in the old days.
People come to see nc evolve - nowadays.
People leave nc - in the future days.
(
I'm a bit bored at work. Bottom line is: Reakktor has had plenty of opportunities to recognize the problem some of the playerbase have with the so called "balancing" of chars.
They tried to deal with it in the past and I am sure they will come up with something in the future. And even if it is something like a spirit mod again. At least its a change.
Eventually Neocron is what you make out of it. If you cannot stand playing at the current situation move on to another game and stop killing the "fun" other players might have.
)
€dit: Vila, Keizo or Fellu - mail me ! - I know at least one of you is lurking this forum.
Dargeshaad
11-01-06, 17:28
You people ought to stop responding to l8m0n's flamebaiting, because either
A) He's too stupid to understand the point and there's not much idea in keep trying to make him understand
or
B) He only wants to get you all worked up....and well you should be above that
Eventually Neocron is what you make out of it. If you cannot stand playing at the current situation move on to another game and stop killing the "fun" other players might have.
Have to agree, and tbh that was my point.
/@ Dargeshaad you can say what you want, cos for one im not flamein or nid would have been here by now, and 2 i can say what i want, im not breaking any laws saying that this is all about people not getting everything their way so they cry about it hopein that KK will give them what they want and not what the playerbase as a whole wants.
So you can call me stupid all you want, i dont care cos if you are going to lower yourself to flame me, im not going to lower my self to your level in a reply.
I'm a bit bored at work. Bottom line is: Reakktor has had plenty of opportunities to recognize the problem some of the playerbase have with the so called "balancing" of chars.
They tried to deal with it in the past and I am sure they will come up with something in the future. And even if it is something like a spirit mod again. At least its a change.
Eventually Neocron is what you make out of it. If you cannot stand playing at the current situation move on to another game and stop killing the "fun" other players might have.
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=123392
1) KK did recognise the problem
2) i don't play the game much atm, but i'm trying my hardest to make it worth my time, and i think that the best direction for NC atm is away from chess gameplay that PPUs are currently supporting and more towards the hardcore action aspect of the game.
3) KK has the ability to make the game how we want it, if they realise that balancing is more important than some of the other crap they are working on and that they would see a lot of returning players because of it.
EDIT: just to put all this into context, i don't like the way things are atm because i'm tired of having to play APU to own people in OP wars. I'd like a bit more viable choices
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=123392
1) KK did recognise the problem
Posted by Callash on 05-03-05, 18:20 (edit: removed useless comment)
...of course they know it. Did you see when this was posted?
2) i don't play the game much atm, but i'm trying my hardest to make it worth my time, and i think that the best direction for NC atm is away from chess gameplay that PPUs are currently supporting and more towards the hardcore action aspect of the game.
Maybe KK is actually reading this. I suggest you start a new thread in the forum about it, Nidhog wants you to. (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1801740&postcount=330)
3) KK has the ability to make the game how we want it, if they realise that balancing is more important than some of the other crap they are working on and that they would see a lot of returning players because of it.
Only KK knows what KK is thinking about all this.
I still think that only a small percentage of the subscribed players are active in this forum. What we want may not be the same that most of nc2 players want.
Evol2.1 must have been a huge success in terms of returning players and income. Otherwise they wouldn't try to do evol2.2 and repeat that success. After countless fuckups I really hope Reakktor does well with Neocron2.
Posted by Callash on 05-03-05, 18:20; in Callashs profile: Location: Not at KK
...of course they know it. Did you see when this was posted?
Maybe KK is actually reading this. I suggest you start a new thread in the forum about it, Nidhog wants you to. (http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.php?p=1801740&postcount=330) i think everyone is pretty tired of KK not showing any reaction to them tho, and if you remember, this thread is all about trying to get KK to say something about it. Personally i would like to know whether it is worth waiting any longer for NCs potential to be reached
Even amid all the suggestions, I doubt there's a single fool proof one out there. I can pretty mush guarantee that KK are scratching thier heads as much as we are.
It's not particularly easy to solve this issue.
i think everyone is pretty tired of KK not showing any reaction to them tho, and if you remember, this thread is all about trying to get KK to say something about it. Personally i would like to know whether it is worth waiting any longer for NCs potential to be reached
Of course it is worth waiting :-) Maybe you should even buy a new account and double log in to show Reakktor how much you appreciate waiting for a solution for a really well known and long known problem.
Don't take it too serious. I really should start a leaving thread (http://neocron.jafc.de/showpost.php?p=1062705&postcount=1) and get my posting rights revoked. Too much shit coming out here
Too many things I want to comment on here. I'll just say @ the guy who said it's possible to kill a PPU with some tactics, do you expect everyone to run around with an APU just to have the slightest chance in hell of killing a PPU?
No, of course not and you don't need an APU to kill a PPU either.
I thought that picture was actually quite hilarious.
For once, I have to agree with you :)
No, of course not and you don't need an APU to kill a PPU either.
i'm not sure what kind of ppus die to none apus...
i'm not sure what kind of ppus die to none apus...
Ones that don't have thier timings right.
it's pretty annoying when people just state stuff like "oh i killed an apu ppu team on a PE alone, they can't be overpowered". Yes i have killed them too, but it's a bit silly to generalise it like that instead of just seeing it as a one off because of them being noobs or just luck.
EDIT: could niddy plz put this forward to KK and get them to make a statement of some sort
it's pretty annoying when people just state stuff like "oh i killed an apu ppu team on a PE alone, they can't be overpowered". Yes i have killed them too, but it's a bit silly to generalise it like that instead of just seeing it as a one off because of them being noobs or just luck.
EDIT: could niddy plz put this forward to KK and get them to make a statement of some sort
Yeah - thats blatant penis stretching and to be honest - unless that PE got skillz - BOOLSHEET! I see yer point dude.
Yeah - an official statement on what, if anything, they're batting around the office would be cool.
Obsidian X
12-01-06, 06:14
I agree the PPU problem is well and truly upon us - but do you want KK to say every couple of weeks "We are working on the PPU problem" - and see no fruit of their labour for any given amount of time?
As Spermy may have mentioned in this thread, theres been a multitude of proposed solutions; and as of yet I've seen none that don't inadvertantly fuck another class/cause other problems. Its a terrible conundrum of a problem, and most sugestions heavily boost PEs, and to a lesser extent, spies, without really solving the problem.
Callash posted two proposed solutions, and both were flawed. I'm sure they could have posted a new (yet rehashed) solution every week since then till now, and nothing would be solved. Would that make people feel any better? I'm fairly certain KK don't have a sealed envelope, lablled "PPUs - Plan B" in a filing cabinet, waiting to be opened...
Dirus is still working for kk as far as I know.....although it wouldn't surprise me if he did leave :rolleyes:
I'm still around. Just gone behind the scenes more then out in the open.
I'm still around. Just gone behind the scenes more then out in the open.
^_^ how do we know its realy you
you could be fired n there posting under ur name... to quell suspitions :angel:
I'm still around. Just gone behind the scenes more then out in the open.
So who took your old place? The "balancing" or story part of it anyway.
RogerRamjet
12-01-06, 10:38
I'm still around. Just gone behind the scenes more then out in the open.
I wouldnt stay in the open either.
Lots of people "sniping" at you guys lately :p
luke pm me ur no pa setup plz sexy :) x x x
if u cant beat them, join em lol
I agree the PPU problem is well and truly upon us - but do you want KK to say every couple of weeks "We are working on the PPU problem" - and see no fruit of their labour for any given amount of time?
As Spermy may have mentioned in this thread, theres been a multitude of proposed solutions; and as of yet I've seen none that don't inadvertantly fuck another class/cause other problems. Its a terrible conundrum of a problem, and most sugestions heavily boost PEs, and to a lesser extent, spies, without really solving the problem.
Callash posted two proposed solutions, and both were flawed. I'm sure they could have posted a new (yet rehashed) solution every week since then till now, and nothing would be solved. Would that make people feel any better? I'm fairly certain KK don't have a sealed envelope, lablled "PPUs - Plan B" in a filing cabinet, waiting to be opened... but callash isn't here to work on it, so a simple one-time post-callash era statement would be good for me
3) KK has the ability to make the game how we want it, if they realise that balancing is more important than some of the other crap they are working on and that they would see a lot of returning players because of it.
If you asked me, I'd say it's the 2nd most important thing. Right behind the Netcode.
^_^ how do we know its realy you
you could be fired n there posting under ur name... to quell suspitions
Guess you'll know soon enough won't you. :p
So who took your old place? The "balancing" or story part of it anyway.
A number of people are working on different areas, I never had anything to do with the story tho.
In general tho, I should be back out in the open more regularly soon. Atleast for a little while. As for the PPU's I'm not gonna comment on them atm, it's not a dead issue tho and does get discussed regularly.
As for the PPU's I'm not gonna comment on them atm, it's not a dead issue tho and does get discussed regularly.
you just made my day - the PPU is an issue for you guys, and you discuss it regularly. so at least there is hope .. thanks!
As for the PPU's I'm not gonna comment on them atm, it's not a dead issue tho and does get discussed regularly. if someone was to post a decent solution to making them less powerful would it be put in place, or is just that it's not a priority atm?
RogerRamjet
14-01-06, 17:33
if someone was to post a decent solution to making them less powerful would it be put in place, or is just that it's not a priority atm?
Theyre not just gonna take 1 persons idea and implement it. Theres been truck loads of constructive posts which KK will be taking into account.
would've been nice if KK gave some feedback as to whether they were do-able or not
if someone was to post a decent solution to making them less powerful would it be put in place, or is just that it's not a priority atm?
Not likely since as I've stated before, they are not the issue. All they do is amplify the real issues. Nerfing one side of one class is not going to fix anything as the real issues will still be at work with every other class.
But fixing every other class won't mean PPUs will be any less powerful. Unless you're talking about buffing them ;)
If thats what you even mean't.
edit - spelling.
Mighty Max
14-01-06, 22:57
Not likely since as I've stated before, they are not the issue. All they do is amplify the real issues. Nerfing one side of one class is not going to fix anything as the real issues will still be at work with every other class.
I can't agree to this.
Amplifying would mean that the relations between classes without PPU would be the same way but not as strong as they are with PPU.
This is not the case. It's more that the PPU boosts some things stronger then others which creates a complete new balance. A PPU i.e. does not modify a weapons output, but the amount of damage a player or mob receives.
A PPU mostly changes the targets behaviour. It Changes the natural resistance (DamageBoost and Shelter&Co) the effect on attacking is nearly non existance (beside some few skillpoint buffs)
This improves more the already strong attacker but weak defender (APU) then the strong defender but medium attacker (Tank)
case is clear then, ppus will stay then... go roll your monks already
Not likely since as I've stated before, they are not the issue. All they do is amplify the real issues. Nerfing one side of one class is not going to fix anything as the real issues will still be at work with every other class.
Ah, so kk dousent consider the fact that a holy heal can outheal most weapons in the game and then some to be the problem. Its the little things amplifying it.
Or did i misinterpret?
I mean how are you going to solve this without nerfing ppu's? The only solution i can see kk making is the current path they have been on, and thats making ppu counter weapons. Problem is they arnt potent enough.
dirus, if your saying that we need counter ppu weapons then i agree, otherwise i haven't got the slightest clue what your talking about when you say that the real issue is the other classes :confused:
Dargeshaad
15-01-06, 01:25
dirus, if your saying that we need counter ppu weapons then i agree, otherwise i haven't got the slightest clue what your talking about when you say that the real issue is the other classes :confused:
He might be talking about the issue with the heals actually healing all 3 body parts instead of just one....other than that i don't have a clue either :confused:
RogerRamjet
15-01-06, 01:37
He might be talking about the issue with the heals actually healing all 3 body parts instead of just one....other than that i don't have a clue either :confused:
Maybe he's talking about boostng tanks effects with S/D and lowering monks, so they can live out their historical design.
Oh that would be a nice idea. The holy heal only healing the part of the body you target.
Except when its self-cast.
Maybe he's talking about boostng tanks effects with S/D and lowering monks, so they can live out their historical design.
personally, APU and PPU should work against eachother, thats why APU's are only class with antibuff etc. However, PPU buffs work the same on a APU as they do on other chars. What if, depending on the ammount of APU a char has, it lowers the strength of shelter and deflector on them. Because their aura or whatever you want weakens the spells power on them, christ, sounds like im talking about fucking WOW or some D&D game, monks, buffs, lightning from the sky and all that shit ..... this is the neocron forum isnt it ? O_o
He might be talking about the issue with the heals actually healing all 3 body parts instead of just one....other than that i don't have a clue either :confused:
I think we've just been all told to roll APUs or PPUs, or if we have them already, play them.
I can't agree to this.
Amplifying would mean that the relations between classes without PPU would be the same way but not as strong as they are with PPU.
This is not the case. It's more that the PPU boosts some things stronger then others which creates a complete new balance. A PPU i.e. does not modify a weapons output, but the amount of damage a player or mob receives.
A PPU mostly changes the targets behaviour. It Changes the natural resistance (DamageBoost and Shelter&Co) the effect on attacking is nearly non existance (beside some few skillpoint buffs)
This improves more the already strong attacker but weak defender (APU) then the strong defender but medium attacker (Tank)
Until I get a chance to discuss this with you I'm not going to comment on this atm, since to me it seems like you're just saying the exact samething I did, maybe I'm misunderstanding you somewhere, or you me.
Ah, so kk dousent consider the fact that a holy heal can outheal most weapons in the game and then some to be the problem. Its the little things amplifying it.
Or did i misinterpret?
You did.
I think we've just been all told to roll APUs or PPUs, or if we have them already, play them.
Not in the least.
I'll refrain from commenting on whats going to be done since what way its going to be handled hasnt been decided yet. Nerfing just PPU's and leaving everything else as is will not solve anything.
On the topic of PPU's themselves tho, What are your general ideas as to the killability of them? Should a PPU be killable by one single person? or should it take 2 people to kill one? 3? more? When you think about this, ignore anything that has to do with hybrids, and think only about Pure PPU's who do nothing but act as supporters for others. If you can't refrain from dragging issues like hybrids into it, then I don't need to hear it :p
I don't think most of the (sane) posters are really asking for much (if any) increased "killableness" of PPUs compared to how they are now.
The consensus generally settles on the disproportionate effect the PPU has on the runners they support (exactly which class gets more or less benefit is a sub-set of this theme), and the number one reason cited is usually Holy Heal.
Not to say it's the *sole* issue, but I'm sure you realise it's the most glaringly obvious. A minimal dash of logic says that any other potential changes mooted without taking the heal status into consideration are an utter waste of everyone's time.
i.e. for those who want it more directly ...
Tweaking shields around, and fiddling with which dmg dealers get the most benefit and so forth is like pissing into the wind, if pretty much anything can be insta-healed, with a single 1 second cast, in practically the space of one reload.
On the topic of PPU's themselves tho, What are your general ideas as to the killability of them? Should a PPU be killable by one single person? or should it take 2 people to kill one? 3? more? When you think about this, ignore anything that has to do with hybrids, and think only about Pure PPU's who do nothing but act as supporters for others. If you can't refrain from dragging issues like hybrids into it, then I don't need to hear it :p
The PPUs can remain as they are right now, and that is pratically unkillable. The main problem I have with them, is the fact they boost anyone who they support to nearly that same level. The only thing PPU supported runners lose is a few % off their damage reduction/absorbtion because of the 50% foreign shields.
As Kurai said, this is basically directly linked to the Holy Heal. If you keep a constant Holy Heal on someone, it's basically like turning them into a PPU themselves, the only way of killing them is through attacking them with (say) 3 or more people, or with an antibuff (monks to fight monks).
So, keep the PPUs "survivability" the same, just nerf the way they affect other classes (that is, nerf the foreign heal) and nerf it by 50% is what I've been going on about for a while.
(And bring back 2.0 reload).
The question wasn't about other classes, it was only Pure PPU's. The others are something different. I'm well aware of why PPU's are hated, tho thats a different topic :p
I can't go into detail as to why the answer to this is of interest to me yet.
Not likely since as I've stated before, they are not the issue. All they do is amplify the real issues. Nerfing one side of one class is not going to fix anything as the real issues will still be at work with every other class.
Dirus, fortunatelly things are a lot easier:
You guys can focus doing just one little thing at a time. We can start by nerfing Holy Para like you did in the past with all the rest of guns. You should also nerf melee shockers to comply to holy para as well, even though these times all i see in op wars are monks. It s just one small step in the right direction. You have the authority to set the new rules. Do it and we will see how we move from there.
Forget the Holy Heal and all its sideeffects, just the para. It's not like that hard...
The question wasn't about other classes, it was only Pure PPU's. The others are something different. I'm well aware of why PPU's are hated, tho thats a different topic :p
I don't think anyone has a problem with Pure PPUs. More a problem with Pure PPUs + Other Class.
PPUs on they own are fine ATM. Some crappy guys will die for nothing, and the good ones stands.
I think the killability of PPU is perfect.
I think, on the para note, that the APUs should be given the Holy Para spell.
Not DB, just Para.
Its a Beam and no "passive" psi user should have access to a beam of any sort.
I think it would lead to this :
APUs specing HUGE mana pools, caping less spells, depending more on PPU, for PSI buff3.
Less para spam.(since a single APU would need to keep mana for HL)
It would definetly slow down the pace in OP wars. What i mean by that is that when someone is targetted he usualy gets DB/Para/HAB/nib S/HL, all within like, 15 seconds. This is very fast, a lot of spells are casted, and it is possible to do this with only one APU/PPU team.
APU Para would require ANOTHER APU to be able to HAB/Para a given target simultaneously.
Basicaly it would push the game toward being more "dance & shoot"
Would also give PPUs one less chance to escape, as they wouldnt be able to "para & run".
This has been on my mind since i joined NC (NC2 open beta)
Why would a PASSIVE use PARA ??? : Its aggresive as hell. Copbots Para.
Give all Para to attacking class plz, it make no sense having PPU Para.
There is also yet another aspect on paraspamming: These days ppus focus in paraspamming more, leaving their very and only number1 reason for existing: supporting other classes. They bring a squad of 5-6 ppus all paraspamming and some apus to finish the job. When is this gonna end?
Tho this is not KK's fault, its OURS !!!
I think Holy Heal is fine. If a PPU chooses to Heal spam his fighter that is ok, and yes, that makes em close to unvulnerable with SD.
Tho this is not KK's fault, its OURS !!!
I think Holy Heal is fine. If a PPU chooses to Heal spam his fighter that is ok, and yes, that makes em close to unvulnerable with SD.OK - time to go dig out a copy of that galaxy/the_point diagram :rolleyes:
Tho this is not KK's fault, its OURS !!!
I think Holy Heal is fine. If a PPU chooses to Heal spam his fighter that is ok, and yes, that makes em close to unvulnerable with SD.
The Holy heal, Holy Shelter or Holy deflector can only get casted once kame, meaning only once in their cycle. You can have 1, 10 or 50 ppus in an op war, but you can only support your buddy with holy heal only once. The rest of ppus however are paraspaming. The Holy para IS the problem nothing else. I say nerf the para/shockers and lets see what happens
The question wasn't about other classes, it was only Pure PPU's. The others are something different. I'm well aware of why PPU's are hated, tho thats a different topic :p
I can't go into detail as to why the answer to this is of interest to me yet.OK - I'll bite :D
To answer your question very specifically :-
Q: What are your general ideas as to the killability of them? Should a PPU be killable by one single person? or should it take 2 people to kill one? 3? more?
Hrmmm - I might have an inkling where this could be going ... ;)
If we are assuming for now that current abilities remain, and we are *only* considering killability ...
Hypothesis :-
Make them more killable = more PPUs needed.
i.e. You need PPUs to back up the PPUs who are supporting the dmg dealers
Make them less killable = less PPUs needed.
i.e. Theoretically, since they aren't at as much risk of dying and leaving their team unsupported, there will be less need for `redundancy` of cover.
Now - as I see it, both those options have ... issues.
The first one is obvious - I've seen a *lot* of people say that playing a PPU is more chore than fun - they create the char out a sense of neccessity rather than desire - and the class is a big headache to maintain and play.
Creating a need for even *more* would, I suspect, lead to the playerbase feeling more frustrated rather than less.
Add to that the annoyance of the dmg classes ... the PPUs might be easier to kill, singly, but you'd have a swarm of Smurf Jawas para-whoring anything that even *looked* like it might move.
As to the second - since PPU support confers such a *massive* disparity between a supported and an unsupported dmg dealer, not having adequate PPU coverage for *every* member of your team is simply not an option.
If the coverage ability of each, now harder, PPU remains the same, I'd imagine you'd have exactly the same number there supporting their guys as with current status ... but just not dying.
Battles would go on seemingly forever, and be eventually decided by who lugged along the most ammunition/boosters, who had the most time on their hands, or who had the greatest number of client crashes. :p
Assuming, that is, that everyone doesn't simply just give up banging their head against and walk off, bored to tears.
All of this verbiage is really just a long and drawn out way of saying that it's simply not a useful question to ask in isolation. The numeric answer is completely irrelevant.
Asumming we continue with the idea that PPU benefits are so massive that not having them on hand is simply unviable all you have to do is just apply n+1 PPUs to any given situation.
The killability of the PPUs can only be sensibly considered when balanced againt their `boost value` to the team.
If the benefit a PPU confers is scaled back somewhat from it's current ludicrous height then it won't be nearly so ultra-critical to drag along as many as you can round up for each fight.
OK - time to go dig out a copy of that galaxy/the_point diagram :rolleyes:
whats ur point ??
that KK choose what ppl make in their account ?
or thats its not hard to kill someone ppu buffed ?
The point is SO NOT THE HEAL .
Look : think about how much balancing issues we would face vs MOBS.
Did you even gave the idea a REALISTIC TOUGHT KURAI ?
EDIT ::
Ok i see you did on that one now Kurai GJ.
The generic 'offensive' PPU basically just wanks around everyone, find the target, para, DB, para......Nib S !!!! ..... para.......
Take the para off his hands, theres basically no need for that guy anymore.
He might as well be sniping/or nib Sing on PE......or giving heals.
Or Hed have an APU to cover wich would Para.
So what you want em to rebalance every high level mobs ?
WAKE UP !!!! They take WEEKS to fix a new item that doesnt work.
Fixing the heal makes no sense. I aint buying it.
Dargeshaad
15-01-06, 10:36
Kame if you had played this game for longer than a year you'd know that they have previously balanced mobs from easy->hard, so exactly what should stop them from making them hard->easy?
As I remember they didn't even fuck the balance up and actually had the dmg the mobs did pretty spot on
they have previously balanced mobs from easy->hard, so exactly what should stop them from making them hard->easy?
Lazyness.
Not wanting to undo work as it make no sense.
Oh and : Nerf chaser damage = Uber Rhino = fix Rhino. And prolly more other irritating bullshit like that.
Last night I was laying in bed and had a ppu idea.
I don't know if this has been discussed before or not so I wont make my own thread.
What about lowering effectiveness of all shelters in the game by 40%.
All deflectors by 40%
All heals by 40%
Removing the mid level psi req jump.
Slightly nerfing high level mobs.
PEs and spys would be gimped.. but so would monks. Tanks would be slightly better then. Also hybrids would be more common.. PEs could reach higher level psi spells again aswell.
The Holy para IS the problem nothing else. I say nerf the para/shockers and lets see what happens
If I would prioritize things, based on whats been said already here is how it goes:
1. Holy Para and melee Shockers need a nerf
2. Netlag comes next for all this shitty clipping around objects/hills
The first one is easy the later, i dunno... so... there you have it Dirus, what do you think of those?
Edit: Drake, those ideas can be good, but they offset the ballance of the whole game. At this point one can assume that the game is ballanced, at least until a ppu joins the scenery. If we start messing with shields, it directly relates to ones resists meaning losing or gaining over another class. And you will still have paraspam in game
On the topic of PPU's themselves tho, What are your general ideas as to the killability of them? Should a PPU be killable by one single person? or should it take 2 people to kill one? 3? more? When you think about this, ignore anything that has to do with hybrids, and think only about Pure PPU's who do nothing but act as supporters for others. If you can't refrain from dragging issues like hybrids into it, then I don't need to hear it :p
Defencewise the ppu is ok. The role of a ppu is to provide support, therefore aggresive spells like shockers need to go, they lead to monkproblem and paraspamming and eventually monk-o-cron.
As it is right now and in theory(meaning standing still) a ppu can get killed only by 2 runners. If not the very best in skill maybe by an apu alone. But all this means nothing when "dancing, netlag" enters the equation.
To answer the question, its not important to find how many runners it take to kill one ppu, as long as ppus restrickt their role in SUPPORT (aka: DEFENSIVE)
whats ur point ??
that KK choose what ppl make in their account ?
or thats its not hard to kill someone ppu buffed ?
The point is SO NOT THE HEAL .
Look : think about how much balancing issues we would face vs MOBS.
Did you even gave the idea a REALISTIC TOUGHT KURAI ?
So what you want em to rebalance every high level mobs ?
WAKE UP !!!! They take WEEKS to fix a new item that doesnt work.
Fixing the heal makes no sense. I aint buying it.*sigh*
People will choose whatever gives the biggest advantage.
If the scaling system is broken, and one class offers a big and obvious advantage, to the detriment of all others, then, suprise, surprise - that class will proliferate like a rash.
Don't believe me ? Simply go count the number of fucking Jawas versus anything else you see next time you poke your nose outside your apartment.
As to your second item - you said it yourself "If a PPU chooses to Heal spam his fighter that is ok, and yes, that makes em close to unvulnerable with SD".
We are trying to *balance* monkehs here, not create a game that has only one invincible class.
As for the mobs comment .... I am trying mightily to restrain myself from just swearing at you ... but in the interest of fairness I can see it's possible that you just don't know the history of monks abilities in this game, as you say yourself you only joined in NC2 open beta ...
Monk balance was horribly broken *long* before this point, back in NC1, and little has changed in NC2.
The big point here is that the mobs are the strength they are now *BECAUSE* of the excessive abilities of PPUs, *NOT* the other way around.
Although Dirus, I'm sure, already knows this and won't particularly want to hear it again ( :p ) the problem stemmed from the utterly insane over-powerdness of NC1 original hybrids. If you don't believe how *totally* ridiculous it was ask any other veteran who was around at the time. This went on for an ungodly length of time without any meaningful attempts at balancing.
*Eventually* changes were introduced that made PPU skill give a big negative to APU skills, and to match, APU skills gave a big negative to PPU skills - on a single character.
The idea was to make insane hybrids impossible, and try to push people into either "pure" APU or PPU.
However ... the strength of the top level spells had seemingly not been balanced properly with "pures" levels of available skillpoints in mind, so each end - APU and PPU, became *massively* stronger compared to the abilities of all the other classes.
As a consequence, the strength of all the mobs was increased to compensate for the new pure monk abilities .... but the abilities of *ALL THE OTHER CLASSES* weren't.
Anyway - I'll get off that ancient history subject - I could post for hours on end about the various accumulated changes and mistakes made over the years, but it will only end up getting me more and more angry ;)
So - where were we ... Oh yeah.
The Holy Heal.
Yes - it's not the *ONLY* issue. I said very clearly earlier on that it's just the *BIGGEST* issue.
The rest still needs a *lot* of work, but none of it will be of any point whatsoever if the Holy Heal isn't dealt with at the same time.
This does include the Para issue, but KK doggedly refuse to get rid of it despite massive opposition from the players, and they will continue to do so as long as the current state of the netcode continues - so it's not, strictly speaking, a direct result of PPUs.
[Edit: Damn - I must try to not get so involved in this subject, and write such long posts ... the conversations catch up and carry on past the original points being responded to :D]
Bugs Gunny
15-01-06, 11:31
Kame, imagine an apu and ppu combined into one, using the same spells.
That was what the old hybrids were.
The rest still needs a *lot* of work, but none of it will be of any point whatsoever if the Holy Heal isn't dealt with at the same time.
This does include the Para issue, but KK doggedly refuse to get rid of it despite massive opposition from the players, and they will continue to do so as long as the current state of the netcode continues - so it's not, strictly speaking, a direct result of PPUs.
[Edit: Damn - I must try to not get so involved in this subject, and write such long posts ... the conversations catch up and carry on past the original points being responded to :D]
I disagree about the HolyHeal.
This is why we have ppus the first time. If we take away the HH what leaves for the ppu to do in op wars? Giving us dances of death?
We have this conversation because KK wants to rethink the ppu issue. If we say they refuse to do this or they refuse to do that then ok we can just let everything the way it is. EVEYTHING is in stake, but take small steps is what I believe.
As to why i disagree about the holy heal: thats because you can easily overide it if you coordinate with the rest in your team. Just like we nib shelter we can nib heal, and this option alone can bring other classes in the scene like pes, spies and tanks. Therefore the HH is NOT the big issue.
again:
1. Nerf the holy Para.
An optional workaround to this, a bit lame but its an idea, is:
Introduse a selfcast nib para spell (much like how heal works now)
this will give us the ability to buff ourselves with a nib para, with a very small para effect, can be used by tanks and up, can stick for say 30 s and can be cast in others as well. How about this?
2. Fix that netlag
Kame, imagine an apu and ppu combined into one, using the same spells.
That was what the old hybrids were.
Yeah.
All that really happend is that the old hybrids are still around ... they just have 4 legs instead of 2, and another 50% boost on top :(
@ Jini :
What I'm trying to suggest is not sledgehammer instant removal of Heal ... but something more graduated and subtle, and *IN COMBINATION* with other elements, because it's in *combination* with the other elements it becomes a problem.
The end result I am trying to suggest is that PPUs *certainly* still have a boost to give to a team ... just that's it's a (say) 50% boost rather than the current 400% boost.
Tho this is not KK's fault, its OURS !!!
I think Holy Heal is fine. If a PPU chooses to Heal spam his fighter that is ok, and yes, that makes em close to unvulnerable with SD.
No it's KKs Fault. Why? Monks, particularily PPUs, have been left in the state we have them in now for so long. There's been alot of time to implement small balance changes so they would not be as "overpowered" as they are now. There were even threads made by KK employees discussing changes that could be made, yet nothing was done. Though they still "recognise there is a problem".
It's like having Parashock ingame, yet telling everyone not to use it.
What I'm trying to suggest is not sledgehammer instant removal of Heal ... but something more graduated and subtle, and *IN COMBINATION* with other elements, because it's in *combination* with the other elements it's a problem.
The end result I am trying to suggest is that PPUs *certainly* still have a boost to give to a team ... just that's it's a (say) 50% boost rather than the current 400% boost.
ok You know from past experience what happens when KK decides to nerf something ;)
Here is another reason for HH:
take the following scenario into concideration:
a ppu, a tank and an apu all standing still.
the ppu HH the tank and the apu shoots the tank.
Eventually what will happen is, that the apu will finally kill the tank and this was only an apu, there was no nib healing involved.
There are many ways one can win against a HH, but nerf the holy heal and there will be no way a ppu can defend, gradualy leading to the destruction of the class. With ppus gone apus stand no chance agains spies/pes tanks, therefore sideffects are tremendous. Thats what I say we need to avoid.
Nerf APU spells quite a bit, nerf PPU spells a touch, remove Para completely, or at least make Para spells need 400 psi energy to cast. That sure would help.
ok You know from past experience what happens when KK decides to nerf something ;)
Yeah - KK just don't *do* subtle, from past experience. Anyone would think that that there was no word for it in German :D
As far as your scenario goes ... either you typo'ed, or I seriously missed your point.
There's no way a Tank with a Holy Heal running on him would fail to splatter an APU into vapour before he was seriously hurt himself, unless this APU also had Holy PPU benefits running.
Anyway - that aside - the excessive capabilities of monks applies to APUs as well as PPUs - the issue is just magnified enormously when you multiply it by the PPU factor.
APUs have such mad dmg per minute capability to counteract PPUs. Take a little bit back from PPUs, APUs don't need to be so excessive. If APUs don't need to be so excessive, then they don't have a need for the penalty of extreme squishiness and helplessness without their PPU buttplug.
The whole big sorry mess is inextricably interlinked, with it's effects extending into every distant corner of the game.
You can't just tweak one element and not expect it to have a knock-on effect on all the other related areas.
And in this game *everything* is related.
Yeah - KK just don't *do* subtle, from past experience. Anyone would think that that there was no word for it in German :D
As far as your scenario goes ... either you typo'ed, or I seriously missed your point.
There's no way a Tank with a Holy Heal running on him would fail to splatter an APU into vapour before he was seriously hurt himself, unless this APU also had Holy PPU benefits running.
Anyway - that aside - the excessive capabilities of monks applies to APUs as well as PPUs - the issue is just magnified enormously when you multiply it by the PPU factor.
APUs have such mad dmg per minute capability to counteract PPUs. Take a little bit back from PPUs, APUs don't need to be so excessive. If APUs don't need to be so excessive, then they don't have a need for the penalty of extreme squishiness and helplessness without their PPU buttplug.
The whole big sorry mess is inextricably interlinked, with it's effects extending into every distant corner of the game.
You can't just tweak one element and not expect it to have a knock-on effect on all the other related areas.
And in this game *everything* is related.
NO no I meant to say that in theory an apu or a spy can out heal a HH runner (tank). I mean in theory because in reality there is also dodging, clipping, netlag, and god knows what else.
YEs, everything is linked in this game, but ONLY when you mess with defencive or offencive stuff in game. It's been said over and over again in the past that people wanted the holy para to stay.
With my nibpara introduce, holypara stays, but you also have a means to get protected and yet, everything else stays the same
On the topic of PPU's themselves tho, What are your general ideas as to the killability of them? Should a PPU be killable by one single person? or should it take 2 people to kill one? 3? more? When you think about this, ignore anything that has to do with hybrids, and think only about Pure PPU's who do nothing but act as supporters for others. If you can't refrain from dragging issues like hybrids into it, then I don't need to hear it :p i'd say that 3 is a pretty good number, if you ignore anti buffs (i.e. just from pure dmg dealing).
RogerRamjet
15-01-06, 13:52
PPUs cant outheal 2 HLs now (without heal sanc). I mean, i know HLs are probably the most powerful things ingame, but i dont think a PPU can outheal 2 CS' either.
On the topic of PPU's themselves tho, What are your general ideas as to the killability of them?
their ability to godmode is not the real problem! the main problem is their influence on other players.
in my opinion you should try to fix that before you focus on their godmodeskills.
Mighty Max
15-01-06, 14:55
their ability to godmode is not the real problem! the main problem is their influence on other players.
in my opinion you should try to fix that before you focus on their godmodeskills.
Correct.
And it doesnt work by fixing the impalance of the classes first, as the effect would not be visible or at least very blur when the PPU boni override this.
Either the PPU boni on the other classes are fixed first or disabled that the view on the classes themself is clear.
I think i can see where their going with this and it might work; id guess like nearly all other mmorpgs they have considered making the healer class paper thin, therefore in a fight the way you stop the ppu givin their team godmode is to kill them quickly and their team will have to protect them as well as they can. If this is their idea it might work as wouldnt really require much tweaking for pve. poss just make holy and blessed shields foreign cast only or something...
As it is atm everyone is thinking about the problem with ppus being the support they render and nerfing that, this would have knock on effects in the game if they tackle the problem from a different perspective it may possibly only have minor repercussions.
Oh and nerf or remove para!
I think i can see where their going with this and it might work; id guess like nearly all other mmorpgs they have considered making the healer class paper thin, therefore in a fight the way you stop the ppu givin their team godmode is to kill them quickly and their team will have to protect them as well as they can. If this is their idea it might work as wouldnt really require much tweaking for pve. poss just make holy and blessed shields foreign cast only or something...
As it is atm everyone is thinking about the problem with ppus being the support they render and nerfing that, this would have knock on effects in the game if they tackle the problem from a different perspective it may possibly only have minor repercussions.
Oh and nerf or remove para!
This is another good idea.
Ove time we have get customed in the idea of the ppu being something like the god and being able to give/support/deliver his godmode to others with simple spells. we can take away their great defences, making them extra fragile, maybe giving them a fast stealth tool as their main defence, but i's again a bit difficult to implement
Not likely since as I've stated before, they are not the issue. All they do is amplify the real issues. Nerfing one side of one class is not going to fix anything as the real issues will still be at work with every other class.
what are the real issues in your opinion?
from my point of view, balance in neocron is quite ok (with a few exceptions, one hit kill drones, piss easy monk aiming, to name two). the problems start when you add ppus to the picture.
about your 'killability question': it should certainly take more than one person to bring down a ppu - but it shouldnt matter that much which class these persons play. at the moment the best way to counter this passive monk is with aggressive monks. hence the ****** high percentage of monks you see ingame.
PPUs cant outheal 2 HLs now (without heal sanc). I mean, i know HLs are probably the most powerful things ingame, but i dont think a PPU can outheal 2 CS' either. to what extent tho? do they take 1 dmg more than they can heal? that would still take a hell of a long time.
Underlying problems? Im sure they amplify a heal 4x its normal strengh to put it off balance. I want to hear about these underlying problems.
Do somthing, test it. If it where up to me i would give monks back psi attack with a nerf and some other goodies and just nerf their defence. Then i would test it before implimented to see if it was actualy good.
hmm kinda get the impression that KK might just have something planned for this. A bit like a glimpse of sunshine on an otherwise cloudy day.
I think i can see where their going with this and it might work; id guess like nearly all other mmorpgs they have considered making the healer class paper thin, therefore in a fight the way you stop the ppu givin their team godmode is to kill them quickly and their team will have to protect them as well as they can. If this is their idea it might work as wouldnt really require much tweaking for pve. poss just make holy and blessed shields foreign cast only or something...
Would just mean people would bring more PPUs (not that they would need to, as there is enough already). Foreign cast only spells? Just get another PPU to buff you then.
Making the class more "killable" won't solve the problem. Only reducing their effect on other classes will.
What about the overpowerness of APU ?
I think the fact the are easy to aim + locational damage is A LOT.
Since theyre so easy to aim they shouldnt be allowed to do locational damage maybe.
Think about it.
What about the overpowerness of APU ?
I think the fact the are easy to aim + locational damage is A LOT.
Since theyre so easy to aim they shouldnt be allowed to do locational damage maybe.
Think about it.
Give them a reticle, just like every other ranged class. Then balance the damage at full-lock to whatever.
Bugs Gunny
16-01-06, 10:03
Apus are not the problem.
Apus are not the problem.
hes right
as i have stated before u can stand toe to toe with an well set up apu on a tank/spy/pe and equaly kill each other, its when u bring the bonus a ppu plays into it
they give a greater % bonus to apus than any other class fixing the reason apu's are worse than the other classes(there poor resists)
as i have stated before u can stand toe to toe with an well set up apu on a tank/spy/pe and equaly kill each other, its when u bring the bonus a ppu plays into it
Is that taking the new reload into consideration 8| .
Also its not the fact that apu's benefit more then other classes with a ppu im realy worried about... its the ppu effect on fights in general.
Is that taking the new reload into consideration 8| .
Also its not the fact that apu's benefit more then other classes with a ppu im realy worried about... its the ppu effect on fights in general. whats wrong with the new reload?
Bugs Gunny
16-01-06, 12:06
The current reload is the same as the old one, with the only difference that if you don't wait out the reload there's no ammo in the gun.
Logan_storm_03
16-01-06, 12:15
remove Holy and blessed heal from the game and you get a 2in1 nerf :p
remove Holy and blessed heal from the game and you get a 2in1 nerf :p
I'm interested to hear in your own words how exactly does this fix PPU's?
I'm interested to hear in your own words how exactly does this fix PPU's? stops them from healing people and making them invincible to all classes except apu
Logan_storm_03
16-01-06, 13:48
I was half joking, but on a serious note, it doesn't 'fix' the PPUs, it just breaks them, which is what we want right? ;)
people would still use them tho, they'd just be less annoying
Logan_storm_03
16-01-06, 14:07
exactly, they still will be usefull for both pvp and pve by giving good defence for their side, but just lack the ability to heal them effectivly, stopping the annoying 'fighting some one at an OP, almost killing them, loose track of them via bad lag/fps only to find them almost fully healed buy a ppu and rinse wash repeat'
On the topic of PPU's themselves tho, What are your general ideas as to the killability of them? Should a PPU be killable by one single person? or should it take 2 people to kill one? 3? more? When you think about this, ignore anything that has to do with hybrids, and think only about Pure PPU's who do nothing but act as supporters for others. If you can't refrain from dragging issues like hybrids into it, then I don't need to hear it :p
I was reading, this post and thread and noticed that no-one put a number on it. Kuria and someone else have tried to answer Dirus's question.
So here's my 2nc's worth.
Sngle person killing an APU. Difficult but possible, currently there are two classes that can potentially kill an PPU. The first is a APU with an well timed antibuff, and a few holy ligtnings, and the second class is a Mosquito droner. There used to be a third class in NC1, and that was the spy with a Spirit moded silent hunter. With these exceptions in mind, should a PPU be killable by 1 person? No.
2 people. If two fighters can attack the PPU's 2 weakspots, then maybe. However I say two APU's attacking 1 APU with Holy Lightning - I say no. Also think RogerRamjet said a PPU can't outheal 2 APU's as things stand.
3 people. Same sort of answer as 2 people, but this get is getting the PPU back into godmode territory.
So my answer is currently on 3-4 with a lot of issues. This question is'nt going to be easy to answer.
However making PPU's killable by say 3-4 figthers isn't doesn't solve monk-o-cron. People are just going to bring more PPU's to counteract the higher body-count of PPU's.
Here's one idea. Say you killed the PPU, should the buffs he cast onto the other players start to drop? (I can think of many pro's and con's for this)
Bugs Gunny
16-01-06, 14:21
One apu will never kill a ppu.
Two apus will if the ppu sucks or if they are hybrids (at least tl3)
As for being able to kill a ppu, ever tried killing a blessed hybrid?
That is tough enough allready.
So, let's make those ppus into blessed ones and nerf psi attack2, problem solved. Tanks con will start to matter more once holy shelter and holy heal come off the apu. Still resurections at opwars, and gone is the holy para.
Nerf the 127/127mobs and you're a lot closer to something playable than before.
my favorite solution is to make holy heal disapear when you get shot by players who are not in your team. doesn't require any mob balancing
Bugs Gunny
16-01-06, 14:28
I'll tell you right now how people are going to stop everyone's heal then: "Send in the idiot with aoe"
i don't see the problem with that. anyone who someone is trying to kill shouldn't be getting any sort of foreign heals, and i could say the same thing about how people should be able to stop PPU's from rezzing if they don't want the person to be rezzed
Bugs Gunny
16-01-06, 14:46
I'm bussy getting myself a shitload of quads to put on top of dead bodies to prevent resurections.
Dargeshaad
16-01-06, 14:51
Remove Heals+Para entirely from the game
Increase the medikit heals by a good deal (6-10 HP/tick) and add a cooldown timer for using it, will have to be thoroughly tested of course
PPU will still have crazy defense and can still give other people HS/HD + booster and can also still dmg boost, meaning a PPU will still be a nice addition to a team but far from required.
PE/Tank/Spy doesn't change much, the tank+spy might be boosted a tad but that's fine since they both perform slightly worse compared to a PE (tl10 heal etc.)
APU will of course get a nice boost since they now have an effective way of healing, meaning their dmg output might have to be reduced, or better yet add a reticle to all agressive spells (not HAB/Barrels).
:edit:
And high lvl mob damage will as a result have to be decreased, but that shouldn't be a big problem
::edit::
Maybe keep all three version of heal sanctums
APU will of course get a nice boost since they now have an effective way of healing, meaning their dmg output might have to be reduced, or better yet add a reticle to all agressive spells (not HAB/Barrels).
Adding a recticle - Barrels I can understand the reason for not adding a recticle, but why no recticle on a Holy AntiBuff? (or come to that plain Antibuff)
Dargeshaad
16-01-06, 15:07
Adding a recticle - Barrels I can understand the reason for not adding a recticle, but why no recticle on a Holy AntiBuff? (or come to that plain Antibuff)
Well a way of adding reticle to APUs for example would be to increase the dmg of a psi module the closer the reticle is closed. With a HAB/AB that wouldn't really apply and adding a "miss" factor for a psi module that cost 250? mana to cast seems too steep
What about the revenge ?
ive seen fully buff heal running PPUs drop from it.
Bugs Gunny
16-01-06, 15:38
I think the kamikaze drones were a develloper's practical joke in that patch.
Two ppus and two revenge droners can take out an entire opteam, including the ppus.
how about addint LoS to all ppu modules =P and give it a plasma effect (stand infront of a casting ppu and get hit by the heal he is shooting at his apu)
RogerRamjet
16-01-06, 18:27
What about the revenge ?
ive seen fully buff heal running PPUs drop from it.
Although the drone is silly atm, with net code lag and resists etc taken into account, this happens very rarely.
I still do not understand why some ppl want a reticle on APU's.... In that way, why passives spells would not have a reticle ? Monks are monks. They just *cast*. It means it's controlled by spirit. They did spells like that. Just spirit.
others classes use non-spirit weapons, so, the reticle.
We can't say that a offensive monk will have to wait for the reticle and the passive one will just have to think "i want to heal him" then heal instantaneously....
Adding a recticle - Barrels I can understand the reason for not adding a recticle, but why no recticle on a Holy AntiBuff? (or come to that plain Antibuff)
But really when it all boils down to it isnt an barrel just like a doombeamer, or a mal - you point at that area and that area turns nasty for whom ever stumbles into it. If HC AoE can deal with a recticle surely barrels could be tweaked to easily follow suit.
I still do not understand why some ppl want a reticle on APU's.... In that way, why passives spells would not have a reticle ? Monks are monks. They just *cast*. It means it's controlled by spirit. They did spells like that. Just spirit.
others classes use non-spirit weapons, so, the reticle.
We can't say that a offensive monk will have to wait for the reticle and the passive one will just have to think "i want to heal him" then heal instantaneously....
imo all monks should have a recticle as some level of concentration (aiming) would bee needed to shoot fire out of your hands.
imo all monks should have a recticle as some level of concentration (aiming) would bee needed to shoot fire out of your hands.
They already need enough mana ... maybe the problem is psi boosters ...
About that, are monks can hit a special zone of the body ?
If they can't, so there is no reason for a reticle.
I still do not understand why some ppl want a reticle on APU's.... [...] Monks are monks. They just *cast*. It means it's controlled by spirit. They did spells like that. Just spirit.
others classes use non-spirit weapons, so, the reticle.
I just love that argument, whenever someone comes up with it again.
monks "just *cast*"? what the hell do you do with a submachine gun then? put it in the face of the target and then wait for 2 seconds until you concentrated enough to pull the trigger? no, you aim it at the target and just *pull the damn trigger* :rolleyes:
Dargeshaad
16-01-06, 20:35
I just love that argument, whenever someone comes up with it again.
monks "just *cast*"? what the hell do you do with a submachine gun then? put it in the face of the target and then wait for 2 seconds until you concentrated enough to pull the trigger? no, you aim it at the target and just *pull the damn trigger* :rolleyes:
Exactly, if anything it should be the monks that had a reticle and not the other way around.
However, I don't mind the reticle I actually think it's a feature, it should just apply to all including monks.
My only argument for maybe exluding passive psi modules from having a reticle would be that it might be too much of a sledgehammer nerf for especially PPUs. Having said that I won't complain if all classes (yes even droners and melees) gets a reticle
The current reload is the same as the old one, with the only difference that if you don't wait out the reload there's no ammo in the gun.
Exept now you have to wait it out instead of shooting.
Having said that I won't complain if all classes (yes even droners and melees) gets a reticle
same here. except melees, at least until the netcode is not that much of a pos anymore. they have enough trouble hitting anything at all (if its not para'd or they're fighting in a matchbox) even without a reticle.
Dargeshaad
16-01-06, 22:55
same here. except melees, at least until the netcode is not that much of a pos anymore. they have enough trouble hitting anything at all (if its not para'd or they're fighting in a matchbox) even without a reticle.
Keep in mind it is relatively easy (they have done it before) to change the actual distance of melee weapons, but in perspective I'd agree there is no actual point in starting to nerf a class that is actually "under"powered right now
I wouldnt use the word underpowered, since the damage you can do with melee weapons is insane, and rather overpowered than the other way round. they just suffer the most from the netcode, thats all .. but you were talking about the same thing, I'm just being picky about the word 'underpowered'.
My only argument for maybe exluding passive psi modules from having a reticle would be that it might be too much of a sledgehammer nerf for especially PPUs. Having said that I won't complain if all classes (yes even droners and melees) gets a reticle i'd love a sledgehammer nerf, not for balance, but just to see the look on those wanker's faces who currently run around all day on ppus :lol:
i'd love a sledgehammer nerf, not for balance, but just to see the look on those wanker's faces who currently run around all day on ppus :lol:
agreed
would be fun, but i do want balance not super nerf in reality.
agreed
would be fun, but i do want balance not super nerf in reality. i agree with you too, but i'm not settling for second rate balancing, monks need a complete re-make. Would be nice to see monks as the old exotic psi was intended to be, but more exotic and useful than before.
About that, are monks can hit a special zone of the body ?
If they can't, so there is no reason for a reticle.
Ive posted one page ago that BEAMS DO LOCATIONAL DAMAGE. :o
READ : Hits a specificaly targeted area of the body.
AGAIN BEAMS DO LOCATINAL DAMAGE.
BEAMS DO LOCATIONAL DAMAGE :D
Exactly, if anything it should be the monks that had a reticle and not the other way around.
However, I don't mind the reticle I actually think it's a feature, it should just apply to all including monks.
My only argument for maybe exluding passive psi modules from having a reticle would be that it might be too much of a sledgehammer nerf for especially PPUs. Having said that I won't complain if all classes (yes even droners and melees) gets a reticle
The only problem I see with giving PPUs reticles, is that it promotes the one PPU per fighter "strategy" and kinda downplays them supporting large groups of people.
The only problem I see with giving PPUs reticles, is that it promotes the one PPU per fighter "strategy" and kinda downplays them supporting large groups of people.
here's the thing with giving monks reticles, I don't think it will change things much, in other works, fix things where they are broken adding reticles won't help things for the non retarted monk players. What makes monks easyer to aim than a gun isn't no retical its the fact that spells "lock on" if they are beams so that you can't miss after you shoot, if you shot somone with a cs only the first burst is garenteed to hit, adding a retical on hl won't change the fact that the whole hl will still hit.
here's the thing with giving monks reticles, I don't think it will change things much, in other works, fix things where they are broken adding reticles won't help things for the non retarted monk players. What makes monks easyer to aim than a gun isn't no retical its the fact that spells "lock on" if they are beams so that you can't miss after you shoot, if you shot somone with a cs only the first burst is garenteed to hit, adding a retical on hl won't change the fact that the whole hl will still hit.
Yes, but to get the max damage out of the HL, you'll need the reticle to be at a full-lock, or close to it. Well, either that or just make it so the spell switches from fail to cast after a certain point on the reticle lock.
It's not entirely about making it so monks become "harder" to aim with, as at times it can be nearly as hard to aim with the HL as with a Slasher. It's about making it fair to all classes. The APUs have the massive advantage at OP Wars, or where there alot of people grouped together, because they don't lose their lock on other players. You can run around on an APU at an OP War or on a reticle class, and I can gurantee that it'll be 10 times easier to aim as an APU.
Remove Heals+Para entirely from the game
Increase the medikit heals by a good deal (6-10 HP/tick) and add a cooldown timer for using it, will have to be thoroughly tested of course
PPU will still have crazy defense and can still give other people HS/HD + booster and can also still dmg boost, meaning a PPU will still be a nice addition to a team but far from required.
PE/Tank/Spy doesn't change much, the tank+spy might be boosted a tad but that's fine since they both perform slightly worse compared to a PE (tl10 heal etc.)
APU will of course get a nice boost since they now have an effective way of healing, meaning their dmg output might have to be reduced, or better yet add a reticle to all agressive spells (not HAB/Barrels).
:edit:
And high lvl mob damage will as a result have to be decreased, but that shouldn't be a big problem
::edit::
Maybe keep all three version of heal sanctums
Stop drinking when you post is what I suggest :D
You are proposing to remove ALL heals? or keep the low level ones? your posts doesnt make sence, unless I miss out something.
In any case with those ideas, all other classes BUT apus will be deleted... nice fix
Yes, but to get the max damage out of the HL, you'll need the reticle to be at a full-lock, or close to it. Well, either that or just make it so the spell switches from fail to cast after a certain point on the reticle lock.
It's not entirely about making it so monks become "harder" to aim with, as at times it can be nearly as hard to aim with the HL as with a Slasher. It's about making it fair to all classes. The APUs have the massive advantage at OP Wars, or where there alot of people grouped together, because they don't lose their lock on other players. You can run around on an APU at an OP War or on a reticle class, and I can gurantee that it'll be 10 times easier to aim as an APU.
nice, on the spot remarks sultana.
All this game needs for fairness is a fix for parashock (have aleady placed an idea about this) and another fix for monk reticles ( I dont mind that much, but Sultana is up to the point on this)
I was reading, this post and thread and noticed that no-one put a number on it. Kuria and someone else have tried to answer Dirus's question.
So here's my 2nc's worth.
Sngle person killing an APU. Difficult but possible, currently there are two classes that can potentially kill an PPU. The first is a APU with an well timed antibuff, and a few holy ligtnings, and the second class is a Mosquito droner. There used to be a third class in NC1, and that was the spy with a Spirit moded silent hunter. With these exceptions in mind, should a PPU be killable by 1 person? No.
2 people. If two fighters can attack the PPU's 2 weakspots, then maybe. However I say two APU's attacking 1 APU with Holy Lightning - I say no. Also think RogerRamjet said a PPU can't outheal 2 APU's as things stand.
3 people. Same sort of answer as 2 people, but this get is getting the PPU back into godmode territory.
So my answer is currently on 3-4 with a lot of issues. This question is'nt going to be easy to answer.
However making PPU's killable by say 3-4 figthers isn't doesn't solve monk-o-cron. People are just going to bring more PPU's to counteract the higher body-count of PPU's.
Here's one idea. Say you killed the PPU, should the buffs he cast onto the other players start to drop? (I can think of many pro's and con's for this)
Brammers, ppus need a loss in their defences.
In practice it takes some 3-5 skilled runners to kill a skilled ppu and a lot of effort. Reason to this is the effectiveness of the HH.
In theory however, it is possible for a skilled apu to kill a ppu that is not moving or is caught with pants down. If we also remove the parashocks from game it will be even more difficult to kill them. Therefore we need to have less defencive ppus than what they are now, not more...
Thats how much evrything is interlinked in this game, and this is why i say that we shouold prioritize a
1. Nibpara for protection against parashocks/or parashocks on batteries
2. Fix reticles for monks as Sultana clearly indicates for fairness
3. Fix netlag
Ive posted one page ago that BEAMS DO LOCATIONAL DAMAGE. :o
READ : Hits a specificaly targeted area of the body.
AGAIN BEAMS DO LOCATINAL DAMAGE.
BEAMS DO LOCATIONAL DAMAGE :D
That's ok, i didn't see it. Is it a reason to speak so loudly ? ;)
So if it do locational damage, i can't see any reason why there is no reticle.
So just remove the locational damage ? lol problem solved :D
I just love that argument, whenever someone comes up with it again.
monks "just *cast*"? what the hell do you do with a submachine gun then? put it in the face of the target and then wait for 2 seconds until you concentrated enough to pull the trigger? no, you aim it at the target and just *pull the damn trigger* :rolleyes:
If we remove locational damage for monks, there would be no reason to give them a reticle. Reticle is here because you need to hit a precisely. If you are in front of you apponent, no need to concentrate, you'll hit, no ?
If we remove locational damage for monks, there would be no reason to give them a reticle. Reticle is here because you need to hit a precisely. If you are in front of you apponent, no need to concentrate, you'll hit, no ?
What are you talking about? Removing locational damage would make it like the Ravager, Ray of God, whatever else. In some situations non-locational damage weapons become more powerful then locational damage weapons, namely when the person being attacked is at low health. In other words, it doesn't solve anything.
I still see no reason not to give APUs reticles, every other ranged class has one.
If we remove locational damage for monks, there would be no reason to give them a reticle. Reticle is here because you need to hit a precisely. If you are in front of you apponent, no need to concentrate, you'll hit, no ?
If you remove locational damage for monks a HL can now hit the head, chest and legs, that will make APU monks more powerful. If you hit someone now, you may or not slow them down, depending if you hit them in the legs or not.
Remove locational damage would mean one hit, and the player is slowed down straight away, making them easy prey.
As for the Recticle argument, Rifle, Cannon, and Pistol users have to aim and fire. Monks just cast spells within their range which is a lot shorter than most Rifle, Cannon, and Pistol users.
So if monks get a recticle, would you have to increase the range of spells?
So if monks get a recticle, would you have to increase the range of spells? i'd give them a reticle, AND make it harder for them to aim at distances = winning formula
If you remove locational damage for monks a HL can now hit the head, chest and legs, that will make APU monks more powerful. If you hit someone now, you may or not slow them down, depending if you hit them in the legs or not.
(and i'm answering to sultana too)
Let's see that another way : give psi spells a "general" hit damage, not randomly locational. Adjust the amount of this general damage. So monks aren't able to slow down someone just by one hit in legs: they have to hit many times *because* they can't aim. I just can't see a reason, or *how*, a HL would be able to hit locationaly. That makes no sense to me regarding to the associated "visual effect" is done a HL hit, it's more a zone spell for me. Maybe some spells would need a reticle because they would be able to hit precisely.
My idea is : no locational damage = no reticle.
We can imagine rifles or pistol weapon without reticle ! it makes sense. Just point and shoot.
As for the Recticle argument, Rifle, Cannon, and Pistol users have to aim and fire. Monks just cast spells within their range which is a lot shorter than most Rifle, Cannon, and Pistol users.
So if monks get a recticle, would you have to increase the range of spells?
Their range is about that of Pistols and Cannons, seeing as to hit at the max range of an APU spell (148 metres in most cases), the Cannon and Pistol users would have to stand still and crouch and still most likely they wouldn't hit.
As for the Recticle argument, Rifle, Cannon, and Pistol users have to aim and fire. Monks just cast spells within their range which is a lot shorter than most Rifle, Cannon, and Pistol users.
So if monks get a recticle, would you have to increase the range of spells?
Their range is about that of Pistols and Cannons, seeing as to hit at the max range of an APU spell (148 metres in most cases), the Cannon and Pistol users would have to stand still and crouch and still most likely they wouldn't hit. Where as all the APU has to do is point and wait for the hit box to come up.
Sultana, you play ppu for very long and I believe that you enjoy the class.
However along with ppu you also play very well, pistols and rifles.
How would you react if suddenly you have been told that BOTH para and heals are out of this game? What would you think of the ppu and its support role then?
Please guys, also remember that ppus had lost yet 2 also very powerfull spells: the catharsis and the antipoison sanctums when transitiioning from nc1->2.
Heals are something that probably should not be removed from the game, just toned down. As the PPU monks are medics, which does imply healing more so then "supporting". Parashock is something, if removed, I couldn't be happier about :)
Antipoison sanctum was a levelling spell, and most PPUs know that the Catharsis sanctum wasn't/isn't needed when PvPing, though it'd be very helpful if you were raiding another city.
Exactly. If we mess a lot with the heal, we mess with the class itself and thats not right. Ppu monks are with us for very long and its not right to backstab a whole class. I agree with parashocks, but we have to consider here some people that do like using their parashock spells. Thats why I proposed a mild transition to parashock nerfing without wiping out yet another usefull spell.
KK can introduce a low level antipara spell or, what I prefer the most a nibpara spell that can be cast prior or after an antipara drug
RogerRamjet
18-01-06, 14:08
Please guys, also remember that ppus had lost yet 2 also very powerfull spells: the catharsis and the antipoison sanctums when transitiioning from nc1->2.
Shelter also got nerfed from NC1 -> 2. I could outheal 4 HLs in NC1, 2 at best now.
Shelter also got nerfed from NC1 -> 2. I could outheal 4 HLs in NC1, 2 at best now.
You gotta put in more resist psi it helps a lot.
Heals are something that probably should not be removed from the game, just toned down. As the PPU monks are medics, which does imply healing more so then "supporting". Parashock is something, if removed, I couldn't be happier about
Even a medic out in the field at war gets a freakin hand gun in case stuff goes bad. Para is a great concept. If you are all alone, all it does is slow people down a bit so that you have time to get away.
RogerRamjet
19-01-06, 19:43
You gotta put in more resist psi it helps a lot.
Resist psi doesnt work as far as i know.
Resist psi doesnt work as far as i know.
Is there an official statement about this ? if not it would be good to have one.
Bugs Gunny
20-01-06, 16:58
No it doesn't work.
However, there's this realy attractive female pe called Psi. Now when she's around my bloodvessels in my lower regions start to expand on one side and contract on the other and then..... my resist Psi kicks in and i'm calm again.
Paper Dragon
20-01-06, 17:27
Resist Psi does work, it's just pointless as only a handful of spells actually do Psi damage (And even then it doesn't help with secondary effects).
You gotta put in more resist psi it helps a lot.
Even a medic out in the field at war gets a freakin hand gun in case stuff goes bad. Para is a great concept. If you are all alone, all it does is slow people down a bit so that you have time to get away.
I always thought you were a nub, but I had no idea.
You actualy think resist psi works?
Mighty Max
20-01-06, 17:34
Is there an official statement about this ? if not it would be good to have one.
At http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=69477&highlight=Skillguide is an official list which skill influences what. Resist Psi is not listed -> it does not influence anything
Resist Psi does work, it's just pointless as only a handful of spells actually do Psi damage (And even then it doesn't help with secondary effects).
how exactly did you test this, with spells that do random damage? and if nothing changed since nc1, no spell does psi damage. no secondary damage either. just plain and simple like HL -> energy.
before you ask: I've got these informations from a list that got ripped out of neocrons files (no, I didnt do that), so they should be trustworthy.
but then again, something might have changed - so please elaborate :)
tells u what. me lil tankie over caps his psi buy about 100k exp :D haha
when i get some free time ill lom all 10 lvls (onoz) and go into NF and test invested points and non invested points
(unles u can lom in nf? i never tryed)
only a handful of spells actually do Psi damage
Really? I know of exactly... none.
Hence why I never included it in the Skillsguide.
RogerRamjet
20-01-06, 23:43
owned.
good to see dirus chillin' in the ppu thread :cool:
owned.
It didn't need to be said :D
Paper Dragon
21-01-06, 02:00
Alright, my mistake.
Gloat away though, boys. You do need some degree of success in life, after all. ;)
Really? I know of exactly... none.
I guess it's a common misconception then, because I remember being told a long time ago in NC1 that 2 spells did psi damage; psi-attack 1 & 2.
What kind of damage do they do - force/pierce?
good to see dirus chillin' in the ppu thread :cool:
I may be in the thread, but don't expect me to agree with the overall concensus. I have my own mindset of the games inbalances, which its too early to get into.
Alright, my mistake.
Gloat away though, boys. You do need some degree of success in life, after all. ;)
Sorry about that, I didn't mean to come off so harsh.
I guess it's a common misconception then, because I remember being told a long time ago in NC1 that 2 spells did psi damage; psi-attack 1 & 2.
What kind of damage do they do - force/pierce?
Pure force.
Bugs Gunny
21-01-06, 14:43
TL51 spell doing more force dammage than a rare pistol......
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