View Full Version : The monkey answer we've all been looking for? (your comments and crits welcome itt)
Scanner Darkly
31-12-05, 18:15
This is not a "hay guize let's nerf monks mkay" post, rather an alternative solution to the way heals are cast and the possible improvements to gameplay this might bring.
Instead of having 4 main types of heals: (TL3, TL10, Blessed, Holy) each healing a different amount as we do now, consider this:
- TL3 heal : same as now
- TL10 heal : same
- Blessed heal : first cast same as tl3 heal, following cast (stacks) bringing the two stacks up to the same level of power as Blessed.
- Holy heal : first cast same as TL3 heal, following cast brings it up to Blessed level, third cast brings it up to Holy. The heal remains at the "holy heal level" for the duration of the 3 stacks.
Okay to reiterate: Blessed and Holy heals will become stackable and only achieve full effect if cast 2x and 3x respectively.
In order to prevent this messing up the PvM aspect of the game, I propose that Blessed and Holy GROUP heals remain the same, but their casting speed should be reduced, to prevent "run casting".
What changes should this have on gameplay?
- Hybrids: Blessed and PPU biased hybrids would have to chose whether to spend more time casting heals (to achieve the full power for the duration of the stacks) or to attack - it should make this class weaker overall, but only to bring it in line with other solo classes.
- PPUs+(APUs?): Here the PPU has to work a lot harder (and be luckier) to get his or her fighter partner(s) that near immortality giving holy heal. Since it takes full three casts to get the three needed heal stacks. Suddenly a PPU does not always mean win for the side that has one or more than the other.
Other adjustments necessary:
- psi pool consumption halved for blessed and reduced by 2/3rds for holy heal, total manna to achieve near identical levels of healing to present would remain the same.
Possible negative effects:
- clans might bring even more PPUs to an OP fight "to make sure" of the win! :lol:
- other classes might become more useful at OP fights (and in general) when APUs become less "immortal". :rolleyes: (notice the " ")
I hope this is not just a insane product of my feverish mind (yay I'm sick and in bed on NYE!) and that I can get some constructive criticism and perhaps some feedback from Rat Boy and co.
Much luck, sex and fun in 2006,
love Tom.
It certainly isnt a bad idea, but im not sure.
Gotta think about this one.
will just make PEs even more powerfull in larger wars, since quite some PEs can battle perfectly in PvP without PPU support against the masses.
Agreed, it's a much better idea than the others i've seen :rolleyes:
It certainly would make it easier vs ppus.
Would be good if we had a designers perspective on it.
Its quite cool idea, although I do see it leading to more PPU spam. I'd also be tempted to say, just let the higher level heals add more TL3 stacks, rather than shooting up to the current blessed/holy levels.
will just make PEs even more powerfull in larger wars, since quite some PEs can battle perfectly in PvP without PPU support against the masses. even more powerful? since when have they been powerful? db a PE shoot him a few times with HL at 105/min and he's dead. it's not powerful and it's certainly not fun.
So many people just base their opinion on what they've seen happen once upon a time or where either one of the parties fighting is a total noob(s)
again, nerf ppu -> change whole game. every god damn bigass mob needs to be changed after ppu getting nerf like that. and yes, it will make pe even more uber then it is now. just boost tanks and we are good to go for opfights.
even more powerful? since when have they been powerful? db a PE shoot him a few times with HL at 105/min and he's dead. it's not powerful and it's certainly not fun.
So many people just base their opinion on what they've seen happen once upon a time or where either one of the parties fighting is a total noob(s)
which class requires the least amount of foreign heals during a larger scale fight?
PE or PPU based hybrid are both viable answers here.
Which means it will just make it harder for everyone else than those 2.
a pe with damageboost sanchtum/normal, good shelder/blessed deflector, good resists, slasher/xbow is not good or even overpower? :P
forgot the capped tl 10 heal... :)
a pe with damageboost sanchtum, good shelder/blessed deflector, good resists, slasher/xbow is not good or even overpower? :P
forgot the capped tl 10 heal... :)
A PE with all that has a SERIOUS drug problem.
2-3 drugs top. and they are longdrugs, 10min ones
Scanner Darkly
31-12-05, 19:35
again, nerf ppu -> change whole game. every god damn bigass mob needs to be changed after ppu getting nerf like that. and yes, it will make pe even more uber then it is now. just boost tanks and we are good to go for opfights.
Please read my whole post. I specifically said:
In order to prevent this messing up the PvM aspect of the game, I propose that Blessed and Holy GROUP heals remain the same, but their casting speed should be reduced, to prevent "run casting".
This should (with minimum adjustment by a decent PPU) replace a regular Holy Heal in PvM play and is already used by some PPUs in places like Ceres, MC5, etc.
Its quite cool idea, although I do see it leading to more PPU spam. I'd also be tempted to say, just let the higher level heals add more TL3 stacks, rather than shooting up to the current blessed/holy levels.
Aye, I was originally considering 2x TL3 heal stacks for Blessed and 3x TL3 heal stacks for Holy heal. This could be a way to go, although it would weaken those heals overall even more ofc and might be a change harder to stomach for some players.
ill think about it more, but first thought is that I don't like it. Prefer DJ's heal idea. Holy Heal shouldn't exist the way it is no matter how many times you have to cast to get it...
again, nerf ppu -> change whole game. every god damn bigass mob needs to be changed after ppu getting nerf like that. and yes, it will make pe even more uber then it is now. just boost tanks and we are good to go for opfights.
changing PPUs is necessary.
It sounds a bit complicated Tom. What about nib buffs? If it can override nib buffing then its a ppu boost not a ppu nerf
As for overpowering PEs... I dont want to express opinion ;)
imo this would just lead to more 2 man ppu combos and even more monkey shighte.
Scanner Darkly
31-12-05, 21:08
This might well be true, but what would you suggest needs to be done?
I think it needs to be something simple and across the board, but which leaves PvM without need of much adjustment. The problem is not lack of good ideas, it seems more like a lack of a want to change by both Reakktor and some of the community.
I did like DJ's heal idea too - let's face it, Holy Heal has to be more than a little "adjusted". But nothing at all has been done about this and this was posted months ago.
Although after the hysterical and over the top reaction of some of the more outspoken elements of the community over the reload time that came with evo2.1 - which of course has been remedied, I can understand KK's (increased) reluctance to mess with PvP dynamics...
Quite simple really, nerf blessed/holy shelter, def, heal...etc by 10% and leave it at that, should also make hybrids a fair charecter class.
Quite simple really, nerf blessed/holy shelter, def, heal...etc by 10% and leave it at that, should also make hybrids a fair charecter class.178% damage cap on ppu spells :p cept that would fuck TL3s etc up for non-ppus
witch hunter
01-01-06, 00:17
I left this game a while back am coming back now as i miss it alot and back then this was still an issue ppl hate ppu coz of their uber heals and buffs.
Why do we hate them coz when we are out on our own fighting we get a 2 man team kill us one of them being a ppu which means you cant kill the other attacker. But have a 2on2 fight both sides with a ppu and that fight will go on for ages coz of the buffs. But wen i used to op fight when ppu ahere at htreir peek they werent unbetable all it needs is good communication from your team and you can kill ppu and all attackers fairly fast i havent played the game for some time so not shore how much it changed all it took back then was a apu to debuf the ppu and as they done that someone else would cast some crapy low lvl buff spell like shelter or deflecter and a tl3 heal and they would drop their are other ways of geting around a ppu buffs and heals without nerfing them it just means you have to think and fight them with tactics other then go up to them with a gun and go bang bang bang dead like you used to with otehr classes.
PPU's hard but not unbeatable
Gota ask can ppu still have shealter and deflecter up at same tiem as i heard that got nerfed and they could only use one or the other.
Im not even going to answer that witch.
If one ppu heals someone and another ppu heals the same person right after would they get a blessed effect?
which class requires the least amount of foreign heals during a larger scale fight?
PE or PPU based hybrid are both viable answers here.
Which means it will just make it harder for everyone else than those 2. god forbid that it will be less attractive playing an apu or tank during an OP fight, because we deffintely don't want any of those riff-raff PEs or spies about do we?
I really don't think that KK put any thought into PvP balance when a PPU is involved so the lesser their effect the better, and if this means that we get more apu/blessed hybs running around at OP wars then fucking brilliant because it sure beats the APU ppu teams we have now.
[PiN]Fluffy
01-01-06, 01:14
I personally Like PPU's in OP fights the way they are. They make for long Great Fights but are still beatable. Now I can see how homo and Gay they are for NON opwars. But taking away PPU's Would Destroy OP fighting as we know it. It Might as well be a bunch of Pe's and SPys running around in DRT ganking Eachother. And since KK has stated they are "NOT" going to do anything about noob buffing it is a Good way to kill poeple who are PPU supported. I mean Fuck. I sures hell would not enjoy an opfights where People die and They stay dead with no chanced of a Rez, there is your 2 minute fight GG. honestly Nerfing PPU's Would lead to a bunch of Stealth WHoring Spys and Pe's Running around OP fighting. Tanks wouldnt stand a chance since they cant hide. And Bascially I see OP defending Being DOne Purely by 5-6 Hacknet Hackers/ Droners becuase noone is going to make it out of the UG with massive barreling unless you have uber holy buffs and a Heal once your up. I dont think you guys would like that would you. ;)
Flame Away :o
Fluffy']I personally Like PPU's in OP fights the way they are. They make for long Great Fights but are still beatable. Now I can see how homo and Gay they are for NON opwars. But taking away PPU's Would Destroy OP fighting as we know it. It Might as well be a bunch of Pe's and SPys running around in DRT ganking Eachother. And since KK has stated they are "NOT" going to do anything about noob buffing it is a Good way to kill poeple who are PPU supported. I mean Fuck. I sures hell would not enjoy an opfights where People die and They stay dead with no chanced of a Rez, there is your 2 minute fight GG. honestly Nerfing PPU's Would lead to a bunch of Stealth WHoring Spys and Pe's Running around OP fighting. Tanks wouldnt stand a chance since they cant hide. And Bascially I see OP defending Being DOne Purely by 5-6 Hacknet Hackers/ Droners becuase noone is going to make it out of the UG with massive barreling unless you have uber holy buffs and a Heal once your up. I dont think you guys would like that would you. ;)
Flame Away :o the only reason why PPUs are needed at all are because APUs do too much dmg and don't die as quick as they should because they have a bloody PPU shoved up their ass, so infact nerfing the PPU wouldn't have such a big effect on the length of OP wars as you think. It would then cause more monks to go apu hyb and blessed hyb and then you end up with a greater balance among all classes.
witch hunter
01-01-06, 01:24
Wooo some one else that has the same idea as me ty for your post pin good read and i know wat you mean ppu are awsome at op fight best fights ive had at taking ops are the ones that go on for an hour or more make it more fun pl;ua when you with your mates more intresting. What you say about op fight geting out UG i would love to see a whole army of defenders try and get out the UG without a ppu buffs or heal and see how long they last not long mere secnds i know from being on the reciving end of something like that it not fun but if you dont get otu there then as pin sez it boring waiting in the net for em to come thorugh that not op fighting that is boring shit moight as well go back to wow which got boring but i want fun pvp that is a challenge and if it mean having to fight someone with ppu buffs that is hard it more fun hey just remeber. WE MAY GET KNOCKED DOWN BUT IT IS ONLY TO MAKE OURSELVES GET UP AND FIGHT HARDER. Look around the ppu strength and find their weakness and they have got em.
I SAY DONT NERF PPU'S
. Look around the ppu strength and find their weakness and they have got em.
hmm ok ill play a tank: i can shoot at the enemy but it won't really scratch him with ppu buffs, i could try to noob heal him but that has the oppertunity cost of risking wasting your time and not shooting while doing it
spy: i can shoot him, but like tank it won't really hurt and I will probably die way before i get a chance to kill them
PE: usually lower dmg then spy so same situation
APU: amazing dmg, can debuff PPU buffed people and kill them with ease
wow i found the answer!!!!!!1111
now let's all play APUs...
anyway, who says you have to come from the UG?
At an Opfight, I'm sure I'd rather have more tanks, spies and PEs RATHER than a lot less of those and more apus and ppus, regardless of how long the PPUs could make the fights last.
APU/PPU teams just do my ****ing nut in :rolleyes:
witch hunter i have a feeling i would disagree with what your saying, based on the fact you're sig says you play a PPU (not many can admit their class fucks the game up), but I can't bring myself to read your giant run-on every-other-word-misspelled posts...
will just make PEs even more powerfull in larger wars, since quite some PEs can battle perfectly in PvP without PPU support against the masses.
I was fighting the other day on my PE. It was myself vs. a PPU and APU. What happened was, I dbed the APU, hit him with a tl 10 heal and then started shooting with my Pain Easer. The APU still outdamaged me, even though I wasn't DBed myself.
So I doubt this idea will suddenly overpower PEs to the level of the PPU/APU team we have now.
What you say about op fight geting out UG i would love to see a whole army of defenders try and get out the UG without a ppu buffs or heal and see how long they last not long mere secnds i know from being on the reciving end of something like that it not fun but if you dont get otu there then as pin sez it boring waiting in the net for em to come thorugh that not op fighting that is boring shit moight as well go back to wow which got boring but i want fun pvp that is a challenge and if it mean having to fight someone with ppu buffs that is hard it more fun hey just remeber.
Did you read the thread? At all?
The idea is to nerf heals for one, and if your suggesting that zoning topside with a heal is the difference between life and death, well?
Not to mention, you can always get a PPU to zone up first to stop the barrels.
And as note, give APUs reticles on their direct damage weapons dammit. Whoever hasn't, should try OP Waring (or just fighting with 10 people) on an APU first, then a Tank/PE/Spy. It's absolutely crazy how much of an advantage they get.
Either give Monks a reticule, or remove ours :lol:
And as note, give APUs reticles on their direct damage weapons dammit. Whoever hasn't, should try OP Waring (or just fighting with 10 people) on an APU first, then a Tank/PE/Spy. It's absolutely crazy how much of an advantage they get.Damn right. That's the reason I deleted my tank and made a monk. It's fecking annoying so I might as well join in too.
This might well be true, but what would you suggest needs to be done?
I think it needs to be something simple and across the board, but which leaves PvM without need of much adjustment. The problem is not lack of good ideas, it seems more like a lack of a want to change by both Reakktor and some of the community.
I did like DJ's heal idea too - let's face it, Holy Heal has to be more than a little "adjusted". But nothing at all has been done about this and this was posted months ago.
Although after the hysterical and over the top reaction of some of the more outspoken elements of the community over the reload time that came with evo2.1 - which of course has been remedied, I can understand KK's (increased) reluctance to mess with PvP dynamics...
I hate DJs ideas about fixing "everything". It's not DJs game. It's KKs. KK certainly knows what to do and its also very simple. If I were they, I would have started nerfing para and all melee shockers. Simple and effective.
What this does:
1. Saves psi mana for the ppu for more constructive ppuing
2. Rewards those that can aim
3. Makes battles w/o ppus possible
4. It doen't affect anyone as far as active pvp goes nor does affect pvm, theres no ballancing involved and apus can still have there heals and such. Thing is, if you mess with heal, you mess a lot with apus. We/I dont want to delete monks from nc. Some people do like them and enjoy playing them.
Another nerf that comes in mind is to implement some kind of reticle, not like what we get at guns but different, to justify the thing that spells are mind driven. KK has a lot of ways to go, but it has to be small steps so it wont happen what did with reloading. Im sure at some point they will do something
Happy and prosperous New Year 2006 for all
Either give Monks a reticule, or remove ours :lol: no don't remove ours, with it there is at least some chance that there are no monks near when you are fighting.
For those of you who think that I'm just some monk hater who wants to boost my class, 95% of my time OP waring is on an APU. Not because it's my favorite class, but because it's the only effective way to kill PPU buffed people. There is clearly something wrong with a situation like this.
And i've said this many times, but PPUs need less to do. They have to heal, sd primes, rezz, para and DB so it becomes way too desirable to bring lots of PPUs to OP wars because there's so many ways that they effect combat.
I think the easiest way to partly fix the problem is to remove psi para and make DB PE/spy only
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