View Full Version : [CbT]"Monk-O-Cron" and HYPOCRISY
Jake Cutter
29-12-05, 03:01
Everyone whines about monks...so why the hell are there so many of them?
I flat out accuse some of you of HYPOCRISY. On the forum here whining and moaning about how monks ruin the game, but you're the first ones to monk zerg at an op fight. Why? I bet it's as simple as ego. Nobody likes to lose.
I'll listen to the whining and player concerns when people start policing themselves and stop being hypocrites.
NO Regards,
Jake Cutter
Paper Dragon
29-12-05, 03:04
I despise guns so I shall shoot you in the face with one!
Expect replies of "but they're so neccesary". Trust me. You won't convince people to look beyond the mindset.
Because the internet is a place where anyone can too easily be anyone else.
On the Internet, Men are Men, Women are Men and the kids are the FBI
Sums it all up to be honest. Yes, I have PPU monk, since NC1, and some of the ideas for nerfing are kinda ok, others are just plain stupid. But the fact remains, that people will whine all they like about them, but when needed, I reckon the majority of the community will have a monk of some kind, or have had a monk at somepoint in their own NC lives.
Thread is kinda pointless to be fair.
/closed meh! heh :angel:
i dont have or play a monk. the last time I had PPU support was in NC1.
but right now; that doens't matter. i dont get mad at people who play or use monks right now and 'whine' about them; they need to if they want to play the game.
i have a hyb monk... god of the overpowerd niblets
do i whine about monks
FUCK YES. i dont like being overpowered but at the same time i dont like to be useless in a fight situation
when ur sitting there with friends. u are playing a team game... the only thing that restrics NC is human characters. so if one is faffin about on a HC pe when he could be doing 2X as much damage on a APU then yes i think he should play apu
if the classes were balanced id stick to my tank all the time. i love my tank. as the classes are not balanced ill stick to whatever gives me/my team mates the biggest advantage...
would i complain if they totaly removed monks... no... do i play a monk. yes i play 2 (3 if my friends account was active)
will the enemy use ppu's? yes they will....
will i use a ppu? well if the enemy does n i dont then im totaly fucked and i may aswell go out get pissed n have a game o pool cos nc will consist of shoot. be out healed die
i dont have a monk, never had (well back in nc1 i rolled a monk once but i deleted him after a week or so, so it doesnt count), and also i dont use any kind of monk support - i can pvp or lvl quite happy without them
bah, basicaly NC to me is about pushing a setup as far as it can possibly go
and if the perfect tank gets 1 then the perfect monk gets 1.5 and the perfect ppu apu combo gets 3-4
Dead Bodies
29-12-05, 04:07
Being able to lose and accept it wthout "hypocrisy" is an aquired skill. it dosent come firsthand. Yes Everyone complains about the POWER of the PSI! But the truth is we all ABUSE the power of the PSI aswell. No if's and's or but's about it. And we ENJOY it too. So contune with your ppu's and Apu's and like it becasue its not going to change any time soon.....
( P.S. PPU are a MAIN part of the game As well. You wouldnt be able to fight 65%, of the creatures in game without a ppu so think abou that, next time u yell NERF!)
(P.P.S i vote for ppu's for PVM not for PVP)
(P.P.P.S I liked apu's better with the KAMI's)
:D
Jake Cutter
29-12-05, 04:10
thought-provoking posts so far, and no flaming. I am surprised.
It seems to sum up my thought of "no one likes to lose"
I don't think however, that an op-war group should consist entirely of monks.
--Jake Cutter
Dead Bodies
29-12-05, 04:12
Well thats MATURE of them glad everyone admits the truth. :D
Everyone whines about monks...so why the hell are there so many of them?FOTM.
Everyone plays em. They're piss easy to play, you don't have to aim, you don't have to reload. And if you're playing a hybrid you can be overpowered as fuck. Too many people seem to need that.
I got a PPU that i never play cause i hate him and i got an APU hybrid that i don't play because it's way too easy to kill people. Feels like cheating. o_O
This game attracts way too many fucktards who'd do anything to win. One of the reasons i just cancelled my accounts tbh.. :(
Paper Dragon
29-12-05, 04:23
The thing I find most hilarious about all this is those who seek to try and look "cool" by demeaning the Psi-Monks with name-calling call such as "Elves", or - my personal favourite - comparing the use of psionics to magic.
Yet these same people claim that Neocron should be a world focused around cyberpunk.
I really wish they would get a clue about things.
Jake Cutter
29-12-05, 04:27
This game attracts way too many fucktards who'd do anything to win. One of the reasons i just cancelled my accounts tbh.. :(
I think you're on to something there.
--Jake
This game attracts way too many fucktards who'd do anything to win. One of the reasons i just cancelled my accounts tbh.. :(
EVERY GAME tbh. and u canceld cause of monks or cause ppl will do anything to win ? . Cause no matter what game you play that involves pvp , ppl WILL do anything , roll the fotm class , FORBIDEN WORD , Zerg , you name it , anything with a I WIN button.
Yes i rolled a monk never had one before (ever since i started in nc1), why ? Cant Beat Em Join Em ..simple as that (And the fact that it was at the time they fucked the reload lol :/).
Liebestoter
29-12-05, 06:53
.. maybe it's because they don't like getting gangraped by the monks. I'm not agreeing with this. Maybe perhaps if KK made it so monks weren't godlike people wouldn't be so prone to playing them?
Zovos said it best. Why the hell would you not want to have the advantage? You expect people to play fair? Hah, no, this is a game. If given an "I WIN" button, people will press it. And can you blame them? No.
I think the issue here lies with the developers needing to balance monks or add some new element to PvP that makes the monk horde not so horde-like.
... but we've been saying this for years..
Talking about hypocrisy, some piece of shit that just came into my mind : claiming that you don't play a so-called overpowered class, while pretending that you would own everyone just too easily, only means either (tick the right box, only one choice is allowed) that...
[ ] you are too fairplay or too pride to use a class that you really consider as overpowered (me say : a very small percentage of whiners, actually)
[ ] you suck too much at playing a monk, and you'd rather play a weak class all your life along than playing an overpowered class, so as to hide other people that even playing it you wouldn't kill a single shit (me say : 75% of whiners)
[ ] you don't know what you're talking about, only refering to your mentor's whining about them, or those 3 days you've actually played a monk two years ago
[ ] you are too fucking dumb to use a class that perfectly suits your only goal in that game (this is to say, kill everything and not be killed), or maybe a little masochist ? (and you perfectly know it, that's why you never whine)
[ ] you are sick of being insulted no matter what you say or not say, no matter what you do, each time you're logging on your monk.
[ ] you are lying, you definatly love to play your secret monk or get the benefits of allied monks in presence, but you want to look cool like the rest :cool:
[ ] you are lying, you don't think monks are overpowered, but you keep on simulate whining because you love to see how overpowered people's stupidity can be
Btw, playing a so-called overpowered class doesn't mean that you're unskilled, it just means that you're playing a so-called overpowered class. Just like not playing it doesn't mean that you're skilled...
well those sorts of things, and hyposcrisy in general doesn't have any bearing on whether something is balanced or not.
I actually have even more respect for someone who PLAY/USE PPU's and realizes the issues with the class (rare).
The ones who realize the issues and then play/use a PPU because of that; probably won't be "whining" about them anymore anyway.
If i had to pick one of those options it'd be the first but it's really because (whether or not I'd be good on a monk or not) if I did win a fight; it wouldn't mean anything.
Just like not playing it doesn't mean that you're skilled...
thank you for that little voice of reason, I agree whole heartedly. (SP I'm kinda drunk atm)
(talking about raids and op-fights now)
everyone plays a monk because you have to play a monk.
should i play a spy? fl/hl/slasher/exec gets outhealed easily, insane reloadtime, its useless.
should i play a pe? almost same as the spy...
should i play a tank? slow as hell, cs and rav are pretty useless because of a.) low dmg and b.) insane reloadtime... ok, dev might be good, but u cant compare it with the next class -
should i play a monk? hell yes, antibuff, most dmg weapon in the game, no reload...
u can easily do op-fights without the so called most intelligent and most handiest class...
u can easily do op-fights without the so called tank, which should be a real warrior, he has the highest constitution, he has the most strength... but he's not necessery for real fights...
u can easily do op-fights without the allrounderclass...
but u CANT do op-fights without monks.
Wow, got a new taste of monk o cron yesterday :wtf:
clan got zerged 5 APUS with a "I win" button on our tank with 5 PPU's backing each one ...kinda brings up a few points from this chat eh? :P
oh and saiboku...i have done plenty of op wars in my day...just takes planning and work....yah you can take a APU PPU combo and zerg a op....but you can also have a stable assault force with hackers/tanks/PE's/droners/snipers that have skills monks dont...just a bit harder to do...but personaly i would like a op war team not a monk mob :P
oh and saiboku...i have done plenty of op wars in my day...just takes planning and work....yah you can take a APU PPU combo and zerg a op....but you can also have a stable assault force with hackers/tanks/PE's/droners/snipers that have skills monks dont...just a bit harder to do...but personaly i would like a op war team not a monk mob :P
The point is, the monk team is the most powerful and efficient one. No reticle (which is very important in OP Wars), no reload, no runspeed nerf, antibuff, highest damage output, etc.
I generally play my monk because I have to, and I admit I enjoy alot of it, the thing is, I would enjoy it alot more if I wasn't forced into playing my monk 95% of the time and I could actually use another character and be just as effective. I realise to have the best chance of winning, you will need an apu/ppu at whatever OP. Because you can be sure the other team will have them aswell. Though it doesn't mean I don't know monks are incredibly overpowered. Even just the no reticle is a huge thing, then couple it with the new reload times O_o
I try to play other classes (mainly my PE) as much as I can, though when the OPs come around, you know there's no other alternative for a Monk. They're just as combat efficient when they hack, then when they don't. Most PEs don't have that choice.
( P.S. PPU are a MAIN part of the game As well. You wouldnt be able to fight 65%, of the creatures in game without a ppu so think abou that, next time u yell NERF!)
Try about 5%, at the most. Mc5, Ceres Tunnels, Level 3 DoY Tunnels (that's only cause of the amount of them) and maybe Regants (I haven't checked since the last patch).
The thing I find most hilarious about all this is those who seek to try and look "cool" by demeaning the Psi-Monks with name-calling call such as "Elves", or - my personal favourite - comparing the use of psionics to magic.
Yet these same people claim that Neocron should be a world focused around cyberpunk.
I really wish they would get a clue about things.
Eh? Last time I checked Cyberpunk didn't necessarily need to have psionics.
Whilst psionics and magic have ingame story manifestation/casting differences... they are basically the same in term of game mechanics.
P.S. PPU are a MAIN part of the game As well. You wouldnt be able to fight 65%, of the creatures in game without a ppu so think abou that, next time u yell NERF!
1.) ppu is a main part? what about pes and spies? looks like they arent a main part in big fights anymore since the ppu is ig.
2.) u really think it would be sucha problem to reduce the dmg of the mc5 guards, regeant creatures etc... ?
3.) your p.s. means P|iece of S|hit, right?
I have an APU called Quoth, i've always had an APU called Quoth.
I just dont use him, cant remember the last time i logged to that character and achived something on it - I cant stand playing them much anymore.
Everyone whines about monks...so why the hell are there so many of them?
I flat out accuse some of you of HYPOCRISY. On the forum here whining and moaning about how monks ruin the game, but you're the first ones to monk zerg at an op fight. Why? I bet it's as simple as ego. Nobody likes to lose.
I'll listen to the whining and player concerns when people start policing themselves and stop being hypocrites.
NO Regards,
Jake Cutter
Not everyone uses monks, monks cant stealth, if you use monks always 2 there are a ppu and a apu, cant solo monks.
I have a PPU, his name is angle dust I think, he is in a UG doing missions BPs (Still), he has been there since before they changed the hard missions BP's. He still has a chip set for this
My apu, I brough him out 3x since NC2 started. Once to debuff a PPU at BD and poison his ass, once to kill some guys at CRP and he died and once to destroy some clans turrets at Chester after they proved to be dick weeds.
My clan, we have 5 active members, of which 2 of them have killed their monks to focus on PE's. TBH I have a tank, hi name is crest, he too has only ventured out a few times.
Reason is simple, I will never just run into a monk (APU) , always 2 I find, so I will not win this fight, not even have a chance. Either I need to have a but plug, or become a but plug, or I need to choose a class that can be solo.
Here is a balancing idea, remove PPU's, remove stealth for PE's, and adjust stealth for Spies, to prevent stealth whoring. Mebbe you cant stealth for 2x the time of your last stealth .... IE 10 seconds stealth = 20seconds of no stealth. That I think would be fair and make rock paper scissors really effective
basicaly its all about usefullness...
on a monk i can give 150% help to my friends where as on a tank i can only give 100%
i prefer my tank... some times i play a tank and gun a hoverbomber because i can pick of monks that ppl have got to low health n a monk aint got a hope of killing me making my tank the more viable option... but then its at the cost of 2 characters that could both role a monk and HL anti buff the hell out of sumbody
its about utalising resorces... i dislike playing a monk... no i realy do... as i said i wouldnt whine if they removed monks compleatly as a class
(the whole bio engeniered virus idea hehe)
but aslong as monks help the people im with more than a tank spy or pe im gona be on my monk
im roling a new spy because its fun im roling a new pe because its fun... im going to have my monk forever because its needed
its the same argument as saying why not bring a tl 50 weapon when u have a tl 115
the monks are tl 115 weapons every other class is a tl50 lol
Paper Dragon
29-12-05, 19:28
Eh? Last time I checked Cyberpunk didn't necessarily need to have psionics.
But it's always been quite a heavy part of the cyberpunk genre.
Hell, Shadowrun - one of the most famous examples of a cyberpunk setting - has actual, proper magic. Not to mention Elves, Orcs and so on.
Whilst psionics and magic have ingame story manifestation/casting differences... they are basically the same in term of game mechanics.
But people screeching "OMG WE'RE ALL USING MAGIC AND BEING ELVES LOL" is just utterly moronic. Game mechanics != story and canon.
I assume the way psionics was used in System Shock is also magic, because of the way you had to use the abilities?
well without ppus every class in this game is more or less balanced ( pes may have a slight advantage cuz of drugs)
but when a ppu comes into the picture apus becomes the best and thus everyone is apu/ppu
i really miss the old smurf days where everyone was a tank in a blue pa and ppus was something no one had u might have died more but it was also more exiting
we have actualy tried to do gankings op fights etc without any monks or at least without ppus now but its damn hard and mostley ends up in u dead :P
only way it works is with cars and stealth but that is REALLY fun, nothing beats killing apus tanks spies(ppu buffed) even ppus when u dont have one urself
Lucid Dream
29-12-05, 19:44
APUs do more damage then any other class, and they don't need to wait for a reticle to close, which is inherently unbalanced. I don't really think PPUs are unbalanced.
APUs do more damage then any other class, and they don't need to wait for a reticle to close, which is inherently unbalanced
but without buffs(wich that cannot cast themselves) they die twice as fast as anything
when i play a tank i really dont have any problem with apus whos alone (on the rare occation i do find one alone)
I don't really think PPUs are unbalanced.
its not a matter of opinion anymore, they are.
/edit
Ups didnt see a thread about them already so edited :P
I'm going off topic there, but I think it's important :
cars and stealth
I'm not sure what you're talking about, but there is something that many people consider as an exploit whereas it's not an exploit at all (that's what a GM told me when I asked him ages ago, at least) : using a 30mm gunner while stealthing.
Everyone who has used a reveler shall know that even a Ppu with 400++ health, uber force resists, capped holy deflector and capped holy heal dies in no time from a reveler gun, even straffing like hell (since bullets are working the same way as plasma does, you can actually hit people by accident or without your reticle fully closed). He has no other choice than running away if he wanna live.
I've killed plenty of supported apus as a lone PE when stealth used to be removed, camping a small step away from OP entrances (and I died a lot too ^^), so it's a joke to kill them now that you can use a stealth tool again. No monk beeing able to use an anti-vhc launcher for the moment, they'll have to be a bunch of HL (or psi-attack-2) users to get rid of you. Of course you're totally useless if not coordinated with your team.
Not satisfied with reveler pe, because of the lack of protection when you need to get away ? Two choices :
- be an hc spy, using long stealth
- use a troop carrier, fully safe as a driver/passenger and damn faster than a Rhino
Comparing to a troop carrier, for both speed and damage output reasons, Rhino's and Monks are a joke. The only reason noone is complaining about it, is that noone is using it, all that simple. If only an half the monks users came in OP fights with a reveler, in addition to a reliable team, things would be a bit different you know.
Now, because of practical obviousness (For one : low population. For two : traditions. For three : lag/fps issues), I'm afraid we'll never see any heterogeneous enough teams again (including snipers, monks, infiltrators, drivers, tanks...), but in theory any all-monks team is FUBAR in most pvp situations.
APUs do more damage then any other class
In theory again, totally wrong.
I'm sorry to play with words, but as long as PEs, Spies, and Tanks are all able to use a 30 cal, we can even say that monk's potential damage output is the lowest of all class :D
the 30mm may be a nice thingy, but it doesnt give back proper balance. nc is way too elf-centric atm.
uh... and, yes, let me repeat it: elves. dig this. elves.
Everyone whines about monks...so why the hell are there so many of them?
I flat out accuse some of you of HYPOCRISY. On the forum here whining and moaning about how monks ruin the game, but you're the first ones to monk zerg at an op fight. Why? I bet it's as simple as ego. Nobody likes to lose.
I'll listen to the whining and player concerns when people start policing themselves and stop being hypocrites.
NO Regards,
Jake Cutter
I didn't read the thread.
Yer an idiot. You can't just wave that accusation around pal. People are entitled to change thier opinions. And guess what? They did.
People whine, people bandwagon, people change.
Deal.
Jake Cutter
29-12-05, 23:41
I'll wave whatever accusation around I wish, within bounds of the rules.
It's my opinion, and I am entitled to it. I didn't name names. Do you have something constructive to add? Maybe KK would pay attention to some decent, well thought constructive ideas, instead of all the whining.
Hell, for all you know, I could have been joking.
I'll wave whatever accusation around I wish, within bounds of the rules.
It's my opinion, and I am entitled to it. I didn't name names. Do you have something constructive to add? Maybe KK would pay attention to some decent, well thought constructive ideas, instead of all the whining.
Hell, for all you know, I could have been joking.
Yes. Yes you were. And no - I have nothing to add that's constructive, as this thread was founded on a comment that was purely the opposite.
Jake Cutter
30-12-05, 00:37
Yes. Yes you were. And no - I have nothing to add that's constructive, as this thread was founded on a comment that was purely the opposite.
Fair enough :D
Because the internet is a place where anyone can too easily be anyone else.
Sums it all up to be honest. Yes, I have PPU monk, since NC1, and some of the ideas for nerfing are kinda ok, others are just plain stupid. But the fact remains, that people will whine all they like about them, but when needed, I reckon the majority of the community will have a monk of some kind, or have had a monk at somepoint in their own NC lives.
Thread is kinda pointless to be fair.
/closed meh! heh :angel:
The quote goes
"On IRC Men are Men, Women are Men, and Kids are the FBI"
:D
But it's always been quite a heavy part of the cyberpunk genre.
Hell, Shadowrun - one of the most famous examples of a cyberpunk setting - has actual, proper magic. Not to mention Elves, Orcs and so on.
But people screeching "OMG WE'RE ALL USING MAGIC AND BEING ELVES LOL" is just utterly moronic. Game mechanics != story and canon.
I assume the way psionics was used in System Shock is also magic, because of the way you had to use the abilities?
Personally, I have always thought that Psionics in Cyberpunk was a bad idea... it just seems like its crossing into the realm of fantasy, and whilst I also really enjoy fantasy I also prefer to keep the two separate as much as possible. The problem with Psionics and Magic is that it can give power to the 'normal person' which is exactly what Cyberpunk isn't about... the themes of Corporations running the world and keeping the common man down is far more interesting without psionics imo.
Although I'd have no issue with Psionics in NC (as people are free to make whatever cyberpunk based setting they want) so long as it was balanced for PvP. Which its plain not.
For the record, I don't nor have I ever had a PvP monk character. PE's all the way babeh!
Jake Cutter
30-12-05, 02:05
Guess I chose the wrong place to vent a little frustration. To make it easier on us all: Moderators, please close this thread.
Guess I chose the wrong place to vent a little frustration. To make it easier on us all: Moderators, please close this thread.
strike that last request from the books
this thread is the only fun iv had in ages :angel:
Sorry ZoVos, the threadstarter holds the cards in this case :p
Closed by Threadstarter.
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