My idea for fixing para

[Whitestuff]

Here's my idea for fixing para. I got this when I was on SynergyXR looking at spells for my PPU because he's getting close to 100 PSI with imps and I wanted to see what to take next. And I noticed something, all of the anti-para spells are high level spells, so only PPU's can use them. SO I got to thinking and I came up with an idea that would fix the para question, without changing anything about para at all.

We take Damage Boost and re-instate the 3 levels of it (DB, Blessed DB, Holy DB) and trade these spells with the Anti-Para spells in terms of PSI/Tech Level. So, you would have an anti-shock spell around PSI 10, PSI 18, and PSI 29 meaning every class has access to one except APU's. DB gets moved to PSI 83, 94, and 103.

With the right setup, every class should be able to spec to runcast the anti-shock which would negate the para stacks for their respective levels. Para RoF already got reduced, so you should be able to antishock several times per time they can shock you. Meaning, every class can use anti-shock effectively and has access to the drugs as well. So, on a PvP character setup, Para will be less of an issue, but not totally removed.

Now, you adjust experience gain on healing, sheltering, and deflectoring to make up for the lost exp from the TL29 DB, and PPU's are balanced in terms of para. Healing, sheltering, and deflectoring exp should be upped on all other classes too, so as to stop the "Grind TL150 resser mishes til I cap PSI" on every class besides the monk. IMHO, every class should be able to level every skill in some way that doesn't involve grinding missions specifically for that purpose. Missions should give a bonus to the exp, not be the sum total of it... but that's a different rant for a different thread.

Now, constructive ideas and suggestions should follow below. Thank you.

[sultana]

So let's completely screw over the lowtech PE class by removing the only thing that makes them viable. Being a damageboost. And no, I don't want to run around with a ppu on my lowtech PE. Not to mention, some mid-techers will probably lose out aswell, this'll mean you'll have to go slasher/other high-tech weapon, to be really viable. If you were going to change the Antishock spells so that all classes can use it, then fine, but don't switch it with the damageboost.

However, the point still remains, you can still be spammed with Parashock, and it still does the "damage," even if everyone gets an anti-parashock spell. The best way to go about it, is to remove it completely, or instead, change it into something else. For example, anti-stealth spell or whatever.

[Whitestuff]

Your point about loosing DB on a PE is negated by the fact that they gain an anti para instead. I would think that gaining without giving up something would cause an imbalance where you are trying to fix one. Tanks and spies would have to change their PSI setups to use the spells b/c the spells are on the upper end of their PSI range. A PE won't have to change their setup at all, so they loose the DB that the spy and tank couldn't use anyway. I'd also like to point out that this solution needs to be taken into consideration with a fix for foreign cast s/d which would make a lowtech PE not need the DB. And I would think that if a PE could use a DB at all, it would be the regular one, currently they use the Holy (granted it is the only one in game, but still...).

The point I'm trying to make is that DB should be a high lvl PPU spell used mainly for leveling as it gives the best experience. Right now, it is a TL 29 spell that gives the best exp per kill for PPU's who can use Holy Catharsis (TL 110). That's just stupid.

As for the damage on para, you can remove it, the damage isn't the problem. I would prefer it did no damage at all. The problem is being slowed long enough to get nailed by a *insert random attack here*. Also, the RoF on Para needs to be adjusted some more so that "spamming" can't occur. But once every 10 seconds isn't really spamming, considering I would expect the anti-shocks to have a RoF of like 3 every 10 seconds, if you have enough mana.

Thanks for pointing outthe flaws in my plan, it helps me go back and fix it. I have all of it worked out in my head, but it kinda looses bits as my fingers hit the keys... :D

[sultana]

Your point about loosing DB on a PE is negated by the fact that they gain an anti para instead. I would think that gaining without giving up something would cause an imbalance where you are trying to fix one. Tanks and spies would have to change their PSI setups to use the spells b/c the spells are on the upper end of their PSI range. A PE won't have to change their setup at all, so they loose the DB that the spy and tank couldn't use anyway. I'd also like to point out that this solution needs to be taken into consideration with a fix for foreign cast s/d which would make a lowtech PE not need the DB. And I would think that if a PE could use a DB at all, it would be the regular one, currently they use the Holy (granted it is the only one in game, but still...).
No, the point is, lowtech PEs do to damage to any class (bar solo APU). Without it, they'll everytime. As it is a tank with CS win against a lowtech PE, even if they are damageboosted. By removing the DB from the PEs you kill the viability of the lowtech class, because they simply will not do enough damage.

Replacing it with a antiparashock spell does nothing to change this fact aswell.


The point I'm trying to make is that DB should be a high lvl PPU spell used mainly for leveling as it gives the best experience. Right now, it is a TL 29 spell that gives the best exp per kill for PPU's who can use Holy Catharsis (TL 110). That's just stupid.
It doesn't do any damage though. Arguably, it makes a mobs able to be killed faster, but that's still besides the point. However if you want "best" xp, then simply shelter a leut or the queen in the chaos caves.


As for the damage on para, you can remove it, the damage isn't the problem. I would prefer it did no damage at all. The problem is being slowed long enough to get nailed by a *insert random attack here*.
Hence "damage"


Also, the RoF on Para needs to be adjusted some more so that "spamming" can't occur. But once every 10 seconds isn't really spamming, considering I would expect the anti-shocks to have a RoF of like 3 every 10 seconds, if you have enough mana.
Spamming is something different. It's after you see the person cast an anti-parashock spell on themselves, you shock them again. Rince and repeat. It makes it even easier to "spam" when it's 1 ppu + 1 other non-ppu class vs. 1 person. As the ppu doesn't even need to look after the person they are teamed with. All they have to do it spam parashock and on occassion damageboost.

[Whitestuff]

No, the point is, lowtech PEs do to damage to any class (bar solo APU). Without it, they'll everytime. As it is a tank with CS win against a lowtech PE, even if they are damageboosted. By removing the DB from the PEs you kill the viability of the lowtech class, because they simply will not do enough damage.

Replacing it with a antiparashock spell does nothing to change this fact aswell.


But now you are getting into the argument that a PE should be able to kill a Tank in a 1 on 1. They shouldn't if all were equal because tanks can have better resists, more stamina, higher TL weapons and deal more DMG. That's why we have such a wide range of setup possibilities. The PE as a class shouldn't be able to beat a tank in a fight, but Joe PE might be able to kill Bob the Tank if their setups were tweaked a certain way.

But, I'm willing to debate spreading the TL's of the DB over the entire PSI spectrum so that PE's can have access to the lowest one. And TBH, I think the only difference between the TL's of it should be exp earned per kill of a mob (Holy gives more exp than a regular) but the DB % should be the same across the board as the current DB % is fine.





It doesn't do any damage though. Arguably, it makes a mobs able to be killed faster, but that's still besides the point. However if you want "best" xp, then simply shelter a leut or the queen in the chaos caves.


Yes, it makes mobs be able to be killed faster. The point is when I DB a mob and my team mate kills it, I get a larger amount of exp when I DB it than if I hadn't DBed it. I watched it happen the other day while hunting rares and made a point to monitor it while we were hunting. Of course, exp depends on other spells too, but DB is the fastest without sheltering a mob b/c you can go from one mob to the next fairly quickly, DBing them all, racking up more exp over time and not annoying your team b/c you sheltered a high level boss mob. :)



Hence "damage"


But not caused by the PPU. The whole point of para is so that the PPU's team mates can hit you easier. If you think the point of it is something else, please share that with me.


Spamming is something different. It's after you see the person cast an anti-parashock spell on themselves, you shock them again. Rince and repeat. It makes it even easier to "spam" when it's 1 ppu + 1 other non-ppu class vs. 1 person. As the ppu doesn't even need to look after the person they are teamed with. All they have to do it spam parashock and on occassion damageboost.

If you would read my post instead of just quoting it, you would see that I gave examples of how you should be able to anti-shock three times to their one shock. Meaning, they shouldn't be able to "spam" it. The time interval doesn't have to be constrained to 10 seconds, I just like using it as a round number for example. If they can only shock you every 30 seconds, you should be able to anti-shock every 10. It's the same ratio, I'll leave it to KK to sort out the RoF numbers. I'm not saying that they shock you and because they are low on mana they can't do it for 30 seconds. I mean, they shock you and they can't use the spell for 30 seconds (ie goes red in the quickbelt).

[sultana]

But now you are getting into the argument that a PE should be able to kill a Tank in a 1 on 1. They shouldn't if all were equal because tanks can have better resists, more stamina, higher TL weapons and deal more DMG. That's why we have such a wide range of setup possibilities. The PE as a class shouldn't be able to beat a tank in a fight, but Joe PE might be able to kill Bob the Tank if their setups were tweaked a certain way.
PEs have better resists then tanks due to them being able to shelter. And in most cases a betters heal (if were comparing TL3 heals, then a capped heal compared with one at 500-odd%). More stamina really doesn't have much to do with it, as the stamina boosters are instant refill anyway. And the higher TL weapons (more damage) is compensated by their lower "defense".


But now you are getting into the argument that a PE Yes, it makes mobs be able to be killed faster. The point is when I DB a mob and my team mate kills it, I get a larger amount of exp when I DB it than if I hadn't DBed it. I watched it happen the other day while hunting rares and made a point to monitor it while we were hunting.
I'm not quite sure I believe you, but ok. So long as PEs keep their current damageboost I'm fine with it.



But not caused by the PPU. The whole point of para is so that the PPU's team mates can hit you easier. If you think the point of it is something else, please share that with me.
What I meant by "damage", was that, the fact is you've been parashocked, so you need to take out your anti-parashock spell, cast it then wait for the effect to go. So after the parashock has been initially cast it takes about, let's say 5ish seconds (if we were using a holy antiparalyse), before the effect is removed. Meaning in that 5ish seconds, the enemy has had pratically free shots on you, as you've not been able to fire back and your glued to the ground.

So the by the time you anti-parashock yourself, the "damage" has already been done.


If you would read my post instead of just quoting it, you would see that I gave examples of how you should be able to anti-shock three times to their one shock. Meaning, they shouldn't be able to "spam" it. The time interval doesn't have to be constrained to 10 seconds, I just like using it as a round number for example. If they can only shock you every 30 seconds, you should be able to anti-shock every 10. It's the same ratio, I'll leave it to KK to sort out the RoF numbers. I'm not saying that they shock you and because they are low on mana they can't do it for 30 seconds. I mean, they shock you and they can't use the spell for 30 seconds (ie goes red in the quickbelt).
What I thought you meant was that you'd simply try and increase the cast time.

As you know, Holy Antiparalyse casts as 70/min when capped, Holy Parashock at 35/min. Though the antiparalyse can be cast twice as fast, it's still very possible to "spam" someone with it. Like I explained before.

[Whitestuff]

PEs have better resists then tanks due to them being able to shelter. And in most cases a betters heal (if were comparing TL3 heals, then a capped heal compared with one at 500-odd%). More stamina really doesn't have much to do with it, as the stamina boosters are instant refill anyway. And the higher TL weapons (more damage) is compensated by their lower "defense".

See the thing is, without shelter, PE's wouldn't have better resisits. And, really, they shouldn't have better resisits. They should be one step down from tanks. I know that sounds harsh, but logistically it makes sense. I won't get into that discussion, but it is the way it should be.




What I meant by "damage", was that, the fact is you've been parashocked, so you need to take out your anti-parashock spell, cast it then wait for the effect to go. So after the parashock has been initially cast it takes about, let's say 5ish seconds (if we were using a holy antiparalyse), before the effect is removed. Meaning in that 5ish seconds, the enemy has had pratically free shots on you, as you've not been able to fire back and your glued to the ground.

So the by the time you anti-parashock yourself, the "damage" has already been done.
I realize this is a problem, but I'm trying to find a solution to the anti-shock drug problem. What I have come up with is either this PSI spell solution OR making the anti-shock drugs like stamina boosters. Slap it on, takes like 2 seconds to remove all stacks of shock, and no drug flash. The thing is, it can't remove the stacks immediately because para would be useless. I'm trying to find a way that para gives a slight edge, rather than a gauranteed win. Do you see what I'm saying?



As you know, Holy Antiparalyse casts as 70/min when capped, Holy Parashock at 35/min. Though the antiparalyse can be cast twice as fast, it's still very possible to "spam" someone with it. Like I explained before.
Yeah, I know the RoF times, but I did say they would need a complete makeover to get the ratios right.

BTW- I'm willing to fight removing para from the game quite a ways, as I believe that removing the spell isn't a viable answer. I don't even use para, lol. I've just seen some good spells go that didn't need to, like Poison Sanctum and Cath Sanctum. With tweaking and testing, those spells could have stayed in game and not been "overpowered", but rather just a bit more useful than their single target siblings. The removing of stuff from the game is more of a quick fix than a true solution to the problem. I'm just trying to provide some ideas so that KK can best fix the solution without permanently removing parts of their legacy.

[sultana]

See the thing is, without shelter, PE's wouldn't have better resisits. And, really, they shouldn't have better resisits. They should be one step down from tanks. I know that sounds harsh, but logistically it makes sense. I won't get into that discussion, but it is the way it should be.
The tanks have a better offence then PEs (though this kinda goes out of whack when you bring in the druggy/slasher/other spy weapon PEs), so they really shouldn't have a better defense. You can't have the best of both worlds.

Though tanks do win out when the ppus become involved, but then again, that's the ppus.


I'm trying to find a way that para gives a slight edge, rather than a gauranteed win. Do you see what I'm saying?
Kinda sorta. I would still rather it removed. But I can still see the point.


I've just seen some good spells go that didn't need to, like Poison Sanctum and Cath Sanctum. With tweaking and testing, those spells could have stayed in game and not been "overpowered", but rather just a bit more useful than their single target siblings.
I think the Holy Cath Sanct was removed cause of the new guards, so it would harder to raid opposing cities. And the Anti Poison Sanctum, because it made levelling in the swamp caves way too easy. All you need was a Poison Sanct, and a Heal Sanct and not even the Shaman could touch you.

The single target siblings were usually better in most cases. Though the sanctums had their advantages. The main point, being you could target anyone, anywhere so they didn't have to be within a certain range. And the removal time was probably just as fast anyway.

[Whitestuff]

The tanks have a better offence then PEs (though this kinda goes out of whack when you bring in the druggy/slasher/other spy weapon PEs), so they really shouldn't have a better defense. You can't have the best of both worlds.
Yeah, but it wouldn't be the best of both. It would be the second best of both. APU's do the highest damage, PPU's highest defense, but what you said makes sense I guess.



I think the Holy Cath Sanct was removed cause of the new guards, so it would harder to raid opposing cities. And the Anti Poison Sanctum, because it made levelling in the swamp caves way too easy. All you need was a Poison Sanct, and a Heal Sanct and not even the Shaman could touch you.

The single target siblings were usually better in most cases. Though the sanctums had their advantages. The main point, being you could target anyone, anywhere so they didn't have to be within a certain range. And the removal time was probably just as fast anyway.
Not to get too off topic, but I think some changes to these spells could have still made them viable. Cath removes 3 effects, right? make it cycle on effect per tick, one tick per 2-4 seconds, instead of all at once every second.

Poison Sanc is so easy to fix it hurts to think about. Remove 1 stack of poison every 5 seconds (it is listed as removing 2 stacks every second). Reduce the sanc up time to 2/3 of the original time. That way, the timing with heal sanc gets off, plus mobs can stack poison way faster than 1 stack every 5 seconds. The PPU would not only have to be awake, he'd have to have his Holy Anti-Poison out and ready. Man I miss that spell...

Would anyone else like to participate in mine and Sultana's discussion? :D

[John Wu]

I would, but my opinion on para/freeze is quite simple: it should be removed. give 'em something else in return - a milkyren maybe :D no honestly, no idea what, but I don't see a way that freeze could be balanced ever.

[sultana]

Poison Sanc is so easy to fix it hurts to think about. Remove 1 stack of poison every 5 seconds (it is listed as removing 2 stacks every second). Reduce the sanc up time to 2/3 of the original time. That way, the timing with heal sanc gets off, plus mobs can stack poison way faster than 1 stack every 5 seconds. The PPU would not only have to be awake, he'd have to have his Holy Anti-Poison out and ready. Man I miss that spell...
They were both bugged though (the poison sanct, and the cath sanct), cause they removed all poison stacks every tick. So if it did only remove x stacks every tick, then there would be no problem with it.

And yeah, slightly off topic.

[Bugs Gunny]

No matter how much you talk about it, KK will never remove parashock.
When the forums were filled with petitions to have it removed they claimed that it was not enough proof of the fact that most players actualy wanted it removed.

So maybe we can ask them the question:
Can they prove that the majority of the players wants it to stay?


But anyway, discussing parashock is not going to help. Unless a LOT of people are quiting the game left and right because of it it'll stay.
Maybe it's KK's way of letting total noobs participate in pvp too.

[MasterChief]

No matter how much you talk about it, KK will never remove parashock.
When the forums were filled with petitions to have it removed they claimed that it was not enough proof of the fact that most players actualy wanted it removed.

So maybe we can ask them the question:
Can they prove that the majority of the players wants it to stay?


But anyway, discussing parashock is not going to help. Unless a LOT of people are quiting the game left and right because of it it'll stay.
Maybe it's KK's way of letting total noobs participate in pvp too.


actually i think it could help in the long run, i remember awhile back when they made those threads of idea's about balancing PPU's they used alot of community idea's in it.

but my personal view is that it should just be removed :p

[Bugs Gunny]

That's what it was, just talk about having ppus ballanced.
And guess what happened to the KK employee that dared stand up against ppus.....

Seriously, someone high up in KK loves his ppu, and he loves his para.

It's all a conspiracy i tell you. The voices in my head... AAAAAHHHHH

[Koshinn]

The tanks have a better offence then PEs (though this kinda goes out of whack when you bring in the druggy/slasher/other spy weapon PEs), so they really shouldn't have a better defense. You can't have the best of both worlds.


Tanks should have better defense and offence than a PE. Why? Same reason PE should have better defence and close offence to a Spy (including DB)... It's what the class is made for. Tanks really can't do much besides fight. The odd one might be able to repair or recycle, but that's it. PEs can sometimes poke or hack an op, maybe even res or cst. Therefore, more variety in the class means less specialization in any one field, including fighting. Spies are like PEs but even more, following the trend.

Yes, fully speccing combat on any class should be about even compared to other classes who do the same, but there should be an advantage for a class that has basically no choice but to spec full combat (the tank).

[sultana]

Tanks should have better defense and offence than a PE. Why? Same reason PE should have better defence and close offence to a Spy (including DB)... It's what the class is made for. Tanks really can't do much besides fight.
What would be the point of trying to play a combat class on a PE then? When the tank has both a better defense and offense then you?


Yes, fully speccing combat on any class should be about even compared to other classes who do the same, but there should be an advantage for a class that has basically no choice but to spec full combat (the tank).
Tanks do have advantages, they perform much better in a team (i.e. when a ppu is around), and they do generally have a much better offense the PEs, though when you bring the slasher into it, it messes things up. Like I said, PEs should really have to gimp more to be able to use it.

If you face someone on a tank, you don't have worry about damageboosting them just to be able to get some decent damage rolling off them. Unlike the lowtech PEs and some mid-techers.

[Koshinn]

What would be the point of trying to play a combat class on a PE then? When the tank has both a better defense and offense then you?

The flip side is... what's the point of playing a pure combat class when a tradeskiller is just as good at fighting? In the case of druggy PEs, even better.

[Bugs Gunny]

Except for lowtech, i doubt a lot of druggy pes are real tradeskillers.
And tradeskiller spies... Well one tradeskill and not too good.

But i agree that specialisation has taken a lot of fun out of setups. Right now you run into a class, check his combatrank, see if he has pa or not and you just about know what the guy's setup is.