View Full Version : yet another monk balancing idea
and this one is kick ass (and pretty easy to implement too) :
- remove psi based armor
thats all :cool:
Monks shouldnt have it anyways, they were supposed to be weak and fragile to plasma (that is: energy) weapons according to the lore. With the current situation monks would have never ever loose anything and definitely not the rule over neocron. But without psi armor... thats quite a different matter!
PS. yeah its not really my idea, others people have posted it many times already - we did got few years for that, after all.
But the idea is nice, simple and effective. Not that it changes anything, but monks would be killable for every class so i wouldnt mind ;)
You say they should use str 20 armor?! o_O
You say they should use str 20 armor?! o_O
yes... according to the lore *that* was monks' weakness, wasnt it?
Paper Dragon
19-12-05, 23:08
yes... according to the lore *that* was monk's weakness, wasnt it?
...and they adapted to overcome that problem.
Piercing weapons absolutely shred through Monks, armour or none. I fail to see how removing all of their resists would solve the problem, especially seeing as a great big chunk of it seems to stem from PPUs?
...and they adapted to overcome that problem.
Piercing weapons absolutely shred through Monks, armour or none. I fail to see how removing all of their resists would solve the problem, especially seeing as a great big chunk of it seems to stem from PPUs?
well, if we take this idea seriously... :) it would require some tweaks, indeed. And it wouldnt be the piercing actually, more like other resists - str 20 armor gives some prc/force after all. But assuming monks can wear heavy belts, they could cover single resist, like energy, so it would require something to cover, at least partially others (basically, some variations of low str armor).
Monks were supposed to be 'paper bags', but with great offensive (apu) or defensive (ppu) capabilities and such solution wouldnt nerf their abilities. PPUs would still have tremendously high impact on others (apus, for example) but they would be killable so team would have to protect them.
actually, i like other ideas (nerfing heals, give monks recticles, and psi boosters injection "reload" time) more than this one, but this one advantage is simplicity. Just remove psi based armor and give a little more resists to low lvl str armors (they are ingame already). Its like 15 mins job...
Monks with Str 20 armour, a heavy belt and PA actually get quite passable resists. At the moment however, monk armour is insane. A heavy fire-belt wearing, Pa 3 monk has something like:
+150 Energy
+100 Fire
+24 Xray
+60-70 PRC/FRC
A tank armour set gets NOTHING like that. A drugless spy gets nothing like that (hell, even druggies dont look that strong). A PE doesnt even come close. And people as why APUs are so tough once they have PPU backup...
Mighty Max
19-12-05, 23:28
Doesnt change anything to the problem anyways.
Heavy Energy/Poison/Fire/Deflector Belt
AND ESPACIALY: Holy Shelter & Deflector
Change the problem not the classes PvM abilities
Btw I strongly believe that we wouldnt have this problem in the first place if there werent these fucking LoM pills. It is too easy to make and level a PPU compared to its strength.
RogerRamjet
20-12-05, 00:17
Remove PA, a whole chunk of bonuses to monks gone in 1 fell swoop.
actualy remove all monk amour. apart from the lowest lvl pa. so they do actualy get pa.
and all normal monk amour. let them use str based amour
I think this is something most people seem to agree on so far :eek:
I like the idea. Just give them some force/pierce resist and they'll be bitchslapped back in line a bit more !
yes, the introduction of psi based armor unbalanced things quite alot. my PE wears fucking tl32 psi boots - go figure.
oh, and PvM should never ever be an argument when talking about PvP balance.
Remove Psi Based Armor and playing APU is impossible without PPU..
Remove Psi Based Armor and playing APU is impossible without PPU..
no playing pure apu would be imposible
hyb a little
as a pe i like holy shelter boots...
but i could live without it
It's not so bad, even if they can't wear pa. Not exactly end of the world for monks :rolleyes:
as a pe i like holy shelter boots...
but i could live without it
And the fact that you WEAR TL32 monkeh boots over TL60+ ones availble to you isn't indicative of a problem in itself?
And the fact that you WEAR TL32 monkeh boots over TL60+ ones availble to you isn't indicative of a problem in itself?
It's more indicative of the lack of xrr for anything besides Spies, tbh.
It's not so bad, even if they can't wear pa. Not exactly end of the world for monks :rolleyes:
Not so bad but would be a step in the right direction.
To be fair when im In MB and im fighting an APU (like today) he does have huge offensive but I use an x-ray judge, and it ripped through the apu in about 5 shots before he had to zone or die.
Just something I wanted to say randomly.
It would mostly hurt solo apu's, which arnt realy much of a problem.
The no monk pa thing is just silly though. My apu dousent even bother with pa.
But you're not the only monk out there ;)
Most monks I see wear PA. Basically all except hybis.
That's ironic - I was just talking about that the other day. I think one of the biggest monk unbalances is the fact that their armor has so much defense.
The attached images are a Monk wearing the best armor he can and two tank setups using the best duranium and the best inquisition. Look at how well the monk armor stacks up... tanks then get the additional 553 points to distribute into CON while monks only get 230... But then Monks get the added bonus of Self-Cast Shelter and Deflector. I don't think Passives are too far out of line and believe they should be quite godly - but their effect on other players, all classes but primarily APUs, is what throws things off.
Monks get 443 resist points with all their armor with the primary focus on Energy which accounts for over 50% of the game's most popular weapons.
Tanks get 517 (Inq) or 559 (Dur) - however the tanks completely over-resist in Force and Pierce so about 100 of those inflated points are pretty much useless. They have the highest resist against the game's lesser used weapons.
Monk armor should have less Energy, Fire, and Force resist while Tanks should have a wider variety of bones that rival Bat Queen bones but add to other resists.
But you're not the only monk out there ;)
Most monks I see wear PA. Basically all except hybis.
Just trying to point out apu monk pa isent what its cracked up to be.
RogerRamjet
20-12-05, 11:53
Monk PA shouldnt be ingame...
Nooooooooooo.....I love me cloak :) If you remove the stats then OK but let me keep my cloak :D
RogerRamjet
20-12-05, 12:50
Remake normal monks skins with a cloak, and remove PA.
Problem solved :D
as i siad. remove all normal monk amour and leave em there first power cloak in each class. this means hybs fall in line with everybody else
pure ppu's should still be godlike
apus are totaly scrued as a solo class and hvae the resists of a paperbag as they should. and need a ppu to survive
however a capped ppu casting a capped shelter and deflector will only bring a monks resists upto that of a tank or self casted pe so they will not be as godly as they are. it would be more profitable for them to role a hyb incase they cant find a ppu as there pure apu is to weak
Couldnt we just lower the effectiveness of the armor by say, 45% instead of removing it? Or just lower it by how ever much is deemed necessary..
And/Or, would lowering con to 40 make a difference? IMO I don't think they should be tougher than Spies...
Couldnt we just lower the effectiveness of the armor by say, 45% instead of removing it? Or just lower it by how ever much is deemed necessary..
And/Or, would lowering con to 40 make a difference? IMO I don't think they should be tougher than Spies...
Check my post at the bottom of the first page. They don't need their armour to get "good" resists.
Scaramanga
20-12-05, 14:44
I vote no to changing monk armour.
In my experience I have had no trouble fighitng against APUs 1 v 1 (as in i find it balanced and not as in i always win). As has been said many times before the problem starts when an PPU enters the equation. Best idea's ive seen so far are reducing effect of foreign cast holy and blessed heals and removal of parashock or changing of parashock to an anti stealth spell.
How about removing from monks any means of damaging vehicles (with any great success). Could keep them in their current overpowered PvP state (as per PPU + APU combo) but give them a weekness. I am basing their effectiveness against vehicles on the number of times i have seen apu or hybrids chasing a rhino tank away using psi attack 2s.
Good point, remove armour 8|
Note to self, read attachments :rolleyes:
Best idea's ive seen so far are reducing effect of foreign cast holy and blessed heals and removal of parashock or changing of parashock to an anti stealth spell.
How about removing from monks any means of damaging vehicles (with any great success). Could keep them in their current overpowered PvP state (as per PPU + APU combo) but give them a weekness. I am basing their effectiveness against vehicles on the number of times i have seen apu or hybrids chasing a rhino tank away using psi attack 2s.
I like the idea of reducing the effects of foreign Holy and Blessed support. This is a must in my opinion.
Maybe parashock should have the lasting effectiveness of stealth I but have a diminishing effect. For example, as soon as the spell is applied the player is basically glued to the floor but as the ten seconds tick away, the spell becomes less and less effective. Maybe make it only have effect on a certain player 3 times every minute?
By doing this the spell will probably be casted less because the PPU will always have to keep switching back to it, which may be quite annoying since they'll have other things to cast.
But I certainly don't think it should be an anti-stealth spell. They already have one.
Yeah, the vehicle idea is good. Boost vehicle resists (expecially Rhino's). I don't think an APU should stand a chance against a tank on their own, why should they? It's a damn tank for Christ's sake !
/edit - Sorry bout the double post, thought someone would have posted something by now :rolleyes:
not really. this idea is intrigueing, but not the way to go. a single APU is never a problem. the balancing problem comes in with the PPU. so the ppu needs a rework. i think we should decide if a ppu could either be in godmode, or spread godmode, but never have both. i think a ppu player should have the opportunity to decide if his powers are going to his own defense, or to the defense of others, leaving his own person vulnerable. the easiest way to do this would be by changing armor and items.
lets give more penalties to the gaya glove, like - 20 dex, - 20 agl, -20 ath, -20 tra. because concentrating on psi powers so much would hinder your physical abilities.
lets make all existing ppu cloaks selfdefending, so a ppu will have 100 % of selfcast, but only 20% of foreign cast. and lets put in a second ppu cloak (of all 4 varieties) into the game, giving 100% foreign cast but only 20% self cast. cloaks of different colours.
this could lead to even more ppus in an op fight, but only for a few days.
I think thats a good idea about PPUs having to choose if they want to make themselves God, or their APU friend God. That way if you did meet a team then you would manage to kill either the PPU because hes not specced to defend himself, or hes specced to defend his partner.
Saying that, I'm not sure if I'd like to have this implemented.
I'd rather have the effect of Holy and Blessed spells reduced that this. It's just a nice idea. Especially the self/foreign cast cloaks.
PPU's in my opinion, should not be killable by by 2-3 people. This is because they have totally ditched their God-given right to kill people.
Would you play a class that can't kill people and can't survive against 1 or 2 other players?
Edit -
The idea with the glove would also stop PE's from wearing it too.. But maybe the downsides shouldn't be so harsh? I dunno..
Posting too much o_O
Remove foreigncast of resist boosters instead of removing armor..
PPU that are easier to kill will result in even more ppu...
PA is no problem, too.. Most monks don't use it anyway...
I think the one problem with this idea, is that it still doesn't stop ppus from giving tanks the same protection that they did before, it just slightly weakens monks overall. The main problem still lies with the ppus holy s/d/heal.
Dargeshaad
20-12-05, 17:15
Remove foreigncast of resist boosters instead of removing armor..
PPU that are easier to kill will result in even more ppu...
PA is no problem, too.. Most monks don't use it anyway...
Actually most people play PPUs because they can't be killed if played well. If that suddenly changes and they actually become killable I think you'll see a drastic fall in the number of PPUs and monks in general
I think the one problem with this idea, is that it still doesn't stop ppus from giving tanks the same protection that they did before, it just slightly weakens monks overall. The main problem still lies with the ppus holy s/d/heal.
Well the PPU won't be able to do that if he has to worry about not dieing himself ;)
Excuse me, may be i'm too noob for all this brainstorming about monks, but if in 1 vs 1 APU lose against tank and spies, how come that APU+PPU own everything? What about tank+PPU or other classes + PPU? :confused:
RogerRamjet
20-12-05, 17:21
A tank PPU team is still great.
A tank cant out damage an APU Being supported by a PPU, not easily anyway - Where as an APU can out damage a holy heal supported tank.
Actually most people play PPUs because they can't be killed if played well. If that suddenly changes and they actually become killable I think you'll see a drastic fall in the number of PPUs and monks in general
I don't think so...
Most people play PPU because it is necessary to defeat a team with a PPU...
And if you make it easy to kill a PPU when support stays the same, the team with more PPU still will be the winner... Bad idea imho to make the PPU easier to kill...
Scaramanga
20-12-05, 18:50
Excuse me, may be i'm too noob for all this brainstorming about monks, but if in 1 vs 1 APU lose against tank and spies, how come that APU+PPU own everything? What about tank+PPU or other classes + PPU? :confused:
I'm no expert, but if all classes are balanced one on one then the class that has the hightest damage output on their own will benefit the most from the PPU. In Neocron this class is the APU as it has no healing powers other than a few milky rens (mmmm, milky ren). Also APUs can antibuff, this is rather handy for making oponents much more killable.
they are ballanced more or less in terms of offences/defences, but the apu allways had the best offense of all and the worst defences. The ppu sorts its defenses, and raises their health pool therefore making for the best pair, and they still have no reticle that needs time to close, which is in my opinion THE most important subject in an op war, where everyone swirlies round and round as if they were riding a carousel
edit: ah, lets not forget the reloading issue as well
not really. this idea is intrigueing, but not the way to go. a single APU is never a problem.
(...)
Not really. Single Apu *IS* a problem just as any other monk due to reload issue. This idea is kick ass because it fix both reload and monk problem :lol:
Not really. Single Apu *IS* a problem just as any other monk due to reload issue. This idea is kick ass because it fix both reload and monk problem :lol:
???? Have you every played a pure apu? Do you not under stand that you have 300hp, and NO HEAL, thats right, no heal at all. If you get into a fight you have to waight minuts for your medkits to run. Want to know how to kill a solo apu?
if you're on the border of a safe zone: Just keep poping out, hitting him, and zoning back to heal, soon he will have to zone himself.
If you're in the open 1v1 its faily balanced, do you know that on a solo apu you will be able to kill him in 1 clip if you aim non retartedly?
Honistly I agree there is a ppu issue, and to some extent a hybrid issue, but anyone complaining about a solo apu should stfu. Yes they need to fix weapon reloads, not further nerf the already most impossable solo class in the game.
That being said the way to fix things is change the effect of s/d forign cast to be baised off of your con lvl. Assume that self cast acts as though you have 150 con and scale from there.
Also give a malas to foreign cast heals.
Next make every point of ppu (not apu) over 100 (not base but total) give a minus to your apu points, hence no more blessed hybrids.
Finaly in order to balance apu hybrids, make db a higher req spell becoming ppu only and apu hybrids will get enouph of a malus to dmg that they fall in line. (this is assuming reload gets fixed).
if you're on the border of a safe zone: Just keep poping out, hitting him, and zoning back to heal, soon he will have to zone himself.
lol zoning x times forces an apu to zone himself .. now thats unbalanced, poor apu :D
If you're in the open 1v1 its faily balanced, do you know that on a solo apu you will be able to kill him in 1 clip if you aim non retartedly?
do you know that a monk can kill you in 3-4 seconds, if he aims 'non retartedly' ? do you know that a monk can kill you in the time it takes you to reload if he aims 'non retartedly'? do you know that aiming on a monk is 10 times easier than aiming on other classes (except droner/melee)?
then why arn't there more solo apus around if they own so much?
go play a pure apu with no ppu support tbh and tell me you're having fun pvping (and no I don't mean 1v1 dueling)
then why arn't there more solo apus around if they own so much?
Because most people are so used to playing an apu with a ppu supporting them, they don't know how to play as a solo apu. Not to mention as soon as you face a ppu supported opponent, you'll have even less of a chance of surviving then a pe/tank/spy.
actualy, most of the apus I've talked to say they play on PEs ectra when solo, they don't just sit around and waight for a PPU. So its not that the players themselves are afraid to pvp without a ppu, its that the apu even as it is is frusterating to pvp solo on. With any other class you can straif and only take a small number of hits and with high hit points of a tank, or the capt heal of a spy, or the even stronger tl 10 heal of a PE you can live fairly idefinitly. (Assuming you are skilled). With an apu as long as you take ANY dmg even minut amounts, you will eventualy die and with only 300ish hp that death will be sooner rather than later.
Removing monk armor will make this way worse and you will NEVER see apus without a ppu up their ass.
The solution is to fix ppus not nerf apus into the ground. Seriously this change affects ppus the least since they have self cast s/d already. Not the mention it won't make ppus any less unbalanceing it will simply make tank/ppu teams the new I win button.
Oh, don§t think taking out powerarmor will change that much. I see msot of the Pvp monks as hybrids without powerarmor anyway, or they use ppu armor fur buff only. With gaia glove and reloading times affecting all otehr classes, they are dominating :o. The other ideas of balancing here on forum were much better, like reload time for psi booster etc :o . Also I an noob in 2.1 played alot of neo1 so i was used that monks get penality for using ppu when they are APU and opposite, formula for apu damage looked like. XX%APU+XX%PSU-XX%PPU.
XX=numbers i don't remmeber exactly
I liked it alot because ti nerved the holy godly hybrids, can anybody explain me why they removed it and even aded now gaia glove ? ehm thanks.
p.s. 12 days old noob
Oh, don§t think taking out powerarmor will change that much. I see msot of the Pvp monks as hybrids without powerarmor anyway, or they use ppu armor fur buff only. With gaia glove and reloading times affecting all otehr classes, they are dominating :o. The other ideas of balancing here on forum were much better, like reload time for psi booster etc :o . Also I an noob in 2.1 played alot of neo1 so i was used that monks get penality for using ppu when they are APU and opposite, formula for apu damage looked like. XX%APU+XX%PSU-XX%PPU.
XX=numbers i don't remmeber exactly
I liked it alot because ti nerved the holy godly hybrids, can anybody explain me why they removed it and even aded now gaia glove ? ehm thanks.
p.s. 12 days old noob
the idea is not to remove power armor only but to remove whole psi-based armor line (best armor in-game)... so monks would be physically weak and fragile (using normal, str based armor), just as it should be.
oops :>
I see, that would be overnerf i think, should be tested properly on test server :>
ALso this would force all monks to be either PPu or hybrid, without holy def and shelter + uber heal they would never be able to survive a sec. pure APU would die like in first burts :P
oops :>
I see, that would be overnerf i think, should be tested properly on test server :>
ALso this would force all monks to be either PPu or hybrid, without holy def and shelter + uber heal they would never be able to survive a sec. pure APU would die like in first burts :P
nah its not that bad, but i agree it would require some tweaks in the armor tables. Something like changing the low str armor stats (they are useless anyways) - adding a little +fire or +xray to them, so monks could compensate their resists with such armors. Spies can cover all but one resist, monks then should be able to cover all but 2 resists - and with the help of a tweaked low lvl armor its quite possible.
I love this idea :D
Remove all normal psi armor.
Keep monk PA.. but add hybrid PA.
Pure apu might not be viable alone then but hybrids and ppus would be ok.
Oh well, Still i would more balance their output damage then defence of armor, I loved the old nc+ hybrid damage formula :)
Removing all the armour, including the PA wouldn't be a huge "overnerf" but it still leaves PPUs to powerful, and still leaves them able to boost the defense of any other class way too much.
The thing is, even with a removal of all the psi based armour, apus with a ppu behind them would still be too powerful. They can still reach 100+ energy armour as well as 80 or so fire/xray armour, which with a holy shelter/deflector/heal makes them nearly as powerful as before. The only thing the lose out on completley is poison resist.
So I'm going with a nerf to heals, apu reticles and removal of parashock.
...and they adapted to overcome that problem.
Piercing weapons absolutely shred through Monks, armour or none. I fail to see how removing all of their resists would solve the problem, especially seeing as a great big chunk of it seems to stem from PPUs?
And HL's shred through pretty much anything - whats yer point? :D
Scaramanga
21-12-05, 12:27
Removing monk armor will make this way worse and you will NEVER see apus without a ppu up their ass.
The solution is to fix ppus not nerf apus into the ground.
Agreed
You say these things without some kind of logic or explanation - can you give me a bit more?
I remember (Nc1) when ppl whined about hybrid monk being too powerfull. When PPU was'nt even a real choice cause of ridicolous power on their heal/defense. Now ppl whine about PPU being too strong and (OMG) they ask for a hybrid monk PA. That's, at least, odd.
PPU do what he's supposed to do: enhance defense/stats/heal
APU do what he's uspposed to do: deal massive damage
It's normal that the combo IS letal. Imho, PPU now do exactly what he's supposed to do: being central on team survival because of healing and protection. I don't want to start a flame, just trying to understand what's the whole concern about all this, so i will ask again: what's the best combo with PPU? Tank + PPU? APU+PPU? Spy+PPU?
I remember (Nc1) when ppl whined about hybrid monk being too powerfull. When PPU was'nt even a real choice cause of ridicolous power on their heal/defense. Now ppl whine about PPU being too strong and (OMG) they ask for a hybrid monk PA. That's, at least, odd.
maybe what people wanted back then was to balance the hybrid, and not to create another unbalanced class. while still having unbalanced hybrids.
just a thought.
PPU do what he's supposed to do: enhance defense/stats/heal
APU do what he's uspposed to do: deal massive damage
Yes it's the norm because it's been around a while. It doesn;t mean that it's exactly fair does it? :p
Yes it's the norm because it's been around a while. It doesn;t mean that it's exactly fair does it? :p
Hmm it's fair that a spy can disappear before being killed or snipe without you can even notice he's there? It's fair that Pistol PE can kill you whitout you even being able to aim at him? Every profession has point of strenght and weekness. I think is normal...
Btw, i hope someone can clarify to me if APU+PPU is the strongest combo.
Hmm it's fair that a spy can disappear before being killed or snipe without you can even notice he's there? It's fair that Pistol PE can kill you whitout you even being able to aim at him? Every profession has point of strenght and weekness. I think is normal...
Stealth is currently a broken item, it does add too many advantage and hardly any disadvantages. But still at least a stealthing spy doesn't completely screw with game balance like a ppu does.
Sniping is currently so very poor (due to the clipping distance), that your even complaining about it in it's current state is almost scary.
Your complaining about a Pistoler being able to run moderatley fast? Why not monks aswell, they don't get any runspeed nerf well. Though really, if you can't aim at a Pistoler, you can't really expect to aim at any class other then say, a bugged drone in the sky.
Let's not forget a ppu suddenly makes their teammate, no matter what class they are, next to unkillable. Is that fair?
Btw, i hope someone can clarify to me if APU+PPU is the strongest combo.
HAB, highest damage output, no crosshair and no reload says they are.
It's fair that Pistol PE can kill you whitout you even being able to aim at him?
huh?
edit: thanks for making his point clear sultana. so he's referring to the speed of a pistol PE..like you said, pistol PE is not the only class with high agl/atl, and its definitely possible to aim/kill them.
I must admit that some of my experiences were from Nc1 (like super speed pistoleer) and cannot be reported on Nc2. But my point is not that snipers or other professions are overpowered or unbalanced, just that every profession has a proper function in a team. PPU must heal and protect. And he must make the difference, like other professions do. May be there are some "edge to cut", but imho, nerfthisnerfthat is'nt a solution.
Oh, btw, problem with sniper is that you don't see him in "localpeople" and the time you need to understand where he is, you're dead. Or he can escape with stealth if you find him before you're dead.
you're right, every class should have advantages and 'make a difference'. but not to the degree the ppu does.
I don't want ppus to be nerfed - I want them balanced.
(just talking about ppu because with a balanced ppu, apus wouldnt be that unbalanced anymore - give 'em a reticle and they're set.)
Oh, btw, problem with sniper is that you don't see him in "localpeople" and the time you need to understand where he is, you're dead. Or he can escape with stealth if you find him before you're dead.
Some say the local list shouldn't be there in the first place :)
Then only problem with sniping I see, is that if somone is using a HL (or maybe some other weapon) it can bugged and you don't see any damage, or the beam, popping off you until you turn and face them.
no, its healing light. true, only way to notice someone is shooting at you from a distance with hl is that you're losing health - which is a bug and should be fixed.
you're right, every class should have advantages and 'make a difference'. but not to the degree the ppu does.
I don't want ppus to be nerfed - I want them balanced.
(just talking about ppu because with a balanced ppu, apus wouldnt be that unbalanced anymore - give 'em a reticle and they're set.)
apus arn't unbalanced, ever fought one 1v1? ever fought one with no ppu supporting him in group pvp? They are a balanced class, its the ppu that changes things. The issue is not only that s/d is powerful, but ppus take away tank's advantages, run resist meater, a solo apu is much weaker than a solo tank both hp and to a lesser extent resist wise. Having twice as much hp+better resists means that tanks have a clear strong point. Now add a ppu. Tanks have 580 hp and apus have 450, not much of a difference, also look at resists of tank vs apu with s/d up, the difference is much smaler than the unbuffed difference.
One of the most needed fixes is the effect of s/d should be baised off your con lvl, self cast=175 con (effectivly a 12.5% nerf on dmg assuming it would be balanced so that 200 con is equil to self cast today). It would still help apus, but not nearly as much as tanks.
hehe cant kill a running pistola because hes to fast?
You havent met my pure low tech melee tank who has 20 recycle and everything else in agil...
he makes any class look like a snail :lol:
yes it is fair that a spy can dissapear, tbh you can make them stealth that quick you get some healing time before there back and they have to heal to.
APU + PPU mostly coz of anti buff and the faster rof
but my melee and a ppu is frickin evil because the level of resist with holy buffs is just plain insane.
Tbh sniper is perfect, your lucky headshots arent one pop kill, i have no problem with the way they work due to the fact that if they dont stealth i can be on top of them within a few seconds thanks to the limited clip plane.
At range a Rifle spy should dominate anyone whos alone (Cept ppu since they are walking gods most of the time)
The ppu on the other hand turns everyone into a godlike char and the apu especially, he takes away there biggest weakness (defense) which combined with the highest damage output in the game is one fuckin fatal combo especially with the fact you dont reload.... and dont gimmie no psi booster bullshit, i never ran outta psi because i just pop my booster before i got to low and cast of the recharge perfectly fine.
Whitestuff
22-12-05, 07:03
oh, and PvM should never ever be an argument when talking about PvP balance.
It should because a lot of these suggestions completely f*ck PvM up. You have to balance both simultaneously, not one and then the other later. Especially with KK. They'd do something like, remove all the PSI based armor and then tweak PvM to match it like, I dunno, a year later? Plus, removing the armor is easy, but balancing PvM to counter-act that would take the whole year to fix because that is a lot more information to check and rebalance than one would think.
Armor isn't the answer. I dunno, reduce some of the resists on it? But I think once we get some sort of balanced PPU foreign cast spells going on, then this idea will fade as well.
It should because a lot of these suggestions completely f*ck PvM up. You have to balance both simultaneously, not one and then the other later. Especially with KK. They'd do something like, remove all the PSI based armor and then tweak PvM to match it like, I dunno, a year later? Plus, removing the armor is easy, but balancing PvM to counter-act that would take the whole year to fix because that is a lot more information to check and rebalance than one would think.
Huge. I'm sure you can level without a PPU for a couple of days/weeks. It's not the hardest thing in the world. Almost anything is soloable so long as you go with the right class.
If PvP balance means I can't do Mc5/Ceres Tunnels for a month (eer.. because of course I do them) then I'm all for it.
Whitestuff
22-12-05, 10:41
Huge. I'm sure you can level without a PPU for a couple of days/weeks. It's not the hardest thing in the world. Almost anything is soloable so long as you go with the right class.
If PvP balance means I can't do Mc5/Ceres Tunnels for a month (eer.. because of course I do them) then I'm all for it.
I have to admit, some of your replies have stuff in them, like random words that I just don't get and can't fit into context anywhere....
Anyway, thx for attacking me on saying that I can't level without a PPU. Although, you would be wrong, as I can and do quite often. I just leveled a rifle spy and a pistol spy up fairly well without a PPU at all.
Flaming beside the point, I would like to call in to account KK's track record for completing things on time. I don't have to list it all, but with the exception of Evo 2.1, pretty much nothing was on time and some things we are still waiting for.
So, what you are saying is, you would like to not be able to roll a new monk for at least a month, if not indefinitely, if you were so inclined? I don't know, sometimes I get the itch to try a new character and I have to start a new one, and sometimes that character is a monk. I wouldn't like it very much if PvM was so borked that I couldn't effectively level a newb monk without a serious, capped PPU for backup at all times. That's my point.
You should tweak the armor, if it indeed needs tweaking, but removing it is foolish at best. Plus, if other classes got comparable DEX armor, the resists could easily be balanced. Adding armors in the game that are based on existing values would be so much easier than rebalancing the ENTIRE PvM system. DEX based armor would put monks at the lowest rung in terms of armor viability, PE's and spies could use combos of different sets, and tanks would get the heavy duty strength based armors. This is assuming that DEX based armor would offer less protection than Strength based armor, but more than PSI based armor. This might take some number juggling at first, but I'm willing to bet it is easier to adjust the resists values of armor than it is retooling the damage, health, AI, movement speed, and effects of every mob in the game.
[...]
The idea for this thread is to remove PSI based armour right? If you check the setups I posted at the bottom of the first page, both without psi armour, one with PA, the other without. You'll see it's still very possible to get "decent" resists on a monk. This is made possible by the level 3 PPU primes. So right there, PPUs are still a neccessity for levelling in some parts.
Though, I'm fairly sure just about every monk specs their con for which place they are levelling at, this mainly being poison for chaos caves or fire for the fire mobs. You don't need a con setup while levelling. I never had one on my monk (or most of my characters) till I capped, and I bet alot of other people didn't aswell. So when concerning this idea for "balancing" monks, it doesn't have too much of an impact on levelling.
The high-level content though, namely the end-game caves (being Mc5/Ceres Labs and whatever else) are what this really effects. Though once again, it will only affect monks, as they are the ones being nerfed. PPUs it doesn't really matter as they don't get shot as much. APUs may have a bit more of a problem. But still, isn't that the point of end-game content? To be done with more then just 2-3 people. You might actually find larger teams doing the high-level dungeons as they're meant to be done.
Other ideas, including those which nerf the heals the PPUs have, do have larger effect on PvM. Depending on how much you do nerf the heal, whether it be down to TL3 for DJs idea, or a 50% reduction on foreign casts, whatever. It still doesn't not hugely affect the levelling part of PvM. As I said, nearly anything is soloable, so just having a PPU there is a bonus.
The high-level dungeons probably would need to be balanced. Though like I said, I could live without them for a while if it meant balancing the PvP part of the game. And I'm sure the mobs were only boosted through health and damage back when the first PPUs came around. They rebalanced hacknet PvM (though it did take a while), I'm sure they could do the same for the "real-world. And like I said before, it might mean we'll see more people actually doing the high-level dungeons in larger teams, rather then ppu/tank or ppu/apu.
apus arn't unbalanced, ever fought one 1v1?
yes, quite often. thats why I said when ppu is balanced apus would be alright, except that they dont have a reticle, which they _should_ have, as rifle/pistol spies/PEs and tanks _have_ one, which makes aiming alot harder for them.
@White: I rather meant PvM should not be a reason not to balance PvP - as you can change PvM balance as well. so many people say 'you can't change the ppu, or PvM would be too hard' - thats not a valid argument, as you can change PvM as well.
Bugs Gunny
22-12-05, 11:15
Heh, the only mob ballancing that would need be done is the 100+ mobs, and honestly ... how many of them are there?
If you can't hit a pistol pe then there's something wrong with your mouse or you're just not made to play fps games. There is NO class ingame that's too fast to hit. Besides the whole charspeed issue is laughable.
It has nothing to do with having 350+ in runspeed. There are values for each class that make a char fast, but there's more involved than those values.
Whitestuff
22-12-05, 11:19
...
You've got some good points, but I don't see why you would need to remove the PSI based armor completely. Though I can see using STR based armor would accomplish a more overall balancing effect among the classes.
My main concern would be the affect on leveling it would have on APU's who chose to solo. Even with the armor as it is now, some mobs are absolutely evil to APU monks, even in low level areas. PPU's aren't in too much danger, as they have the highest defense in the game when buffed, plus they can heal themselves easily.
I also like to point out that PSI armor adds a demension of diversity in the game. Because of the resists it offers, PSI armor makes appearences in all sorts of setups and it varies the combat in game. If you remove the armor, you remove these options for variation. That's why I am usually for adding rather than removing.
Whitestuff
22-12-05, 11:27
There is NO class ingame that's too fast to hit. Besides the whole charspeed issue is laughable.
The issue of runspeed is important when you consider the lag that people who don't live in Europe experience from time to time. My friend who plays with me on his melee tank is hard to team with because his setup is fast enough, that by the time he sends his updated position to the server and the server sends it to me, he's moved over 50 meters. Then I start to move, right? But he's had a chance to go another 25-35 meters by that point. Then I start seeing him melt through the wasteland landscape and healing him becomes tedious and difficult because position updates so slow. Then I start healing the mobs he's swinging at cause he melts through them as well. And I normally get a ping of 125... So, yeah, saying runspeed is laughable is purely your opinion, based on your experience.
I also like to point out that PSI armor adds a demension of diversity in the game. Because of the resists it offers, PSI armor makes appearences in all sorts of setups and it varies the combat in game. If you remove the armor, you remove these options for variation. That's why I am usually for adding rather than removing.Holy shelter belt and boots for PEs. Wow. o_O
Whitestuff
22-12-05, 11:40
Holy shelter belt and boots for PEs. Wow. o_O
The fact remains that they are used, no?
And adding DEX based armor would add even further. I bet Monks would like to have it with their DEX cap at 35. It's a matter of opinion, I realize. I would just like to see each class have an armor for their main stat and the option to use other armors from other sets. It gives everyone a chance to be more creative and less cookie cutter. Though with the low cap on PSI on everyone but monks, you are right, there isn't much offered there.
Well, I realise that monk armour probably shouldn't be removed, however it is really the best armour in the game, well if not the best, as good as tank armour, as they get to mix and match fire and energy. It should probably be toned down somewhat.
But it still leaves the PPU imbalances, only nerfing the defense of monks in general, somewhat. And the apus would still be well to powerful with a ppu behind them.
I still don't understand.
If an APU has, say, 100 defense and a tank has 200 defense (random numbers) and in 1 vs 1 APU is dead, what a PPU can change? APU will have 100 + buff and tank will have 200+buff... something i'm missing?? :confused:
May be PPU dont need PA with high resistance cause of s/d casting will give hime god mode, but that's far away from "PPU are unbalanced/unfair".
On the snipe concern what i'm saying is that there's nothing wrong whit em even if they can seems unfair. So are the PPU. It can seems unfair, but it's his role in the game.
I still don't understand.
If an APU has, say, 100 defense and a tank has 200 defense (random numbers) and in 1 vs 1 APU is dead, what a PPU can change? APU will have 100 + buff and tank will have 200+buff... something i'm missing?? :confused:
Yes.
With a ppu you have Holy Heal which means you need to deal damage very fast to beat the ticks... which only a apu is capable of
Yes.
With a ppu you have Holy Heal which means you need to deal damage very fast to beat the ticks... which only a apu is capable of
Oh, now i see the point, thanks.
Uhmm but i see that PA3 for APU has 10 Force and Piercing resist, while the one for Tank has 49... this don't make enough difference on the damage count? I mean APU deal more damage, but the overall resist of tank is higher...
dont forget that apus can antibuff too - tanks can't. no other class can.
about armor/resists: the system is not linear. from 0-100 armor there's a huge gain in defence, from 100-200 its not that much anymore.
Oh, now i see the point, thanks.
Uhmm but i see that PA3 for APU has 10 Force and Piercing resist, while the one for Tank has 49... this don't make enough difference on the damage count? I mean APU deal more damage, but the overall resist of tank is higher...
hmm in a sense yes
But holy shelter/deflect is 75% resist respectively so the difference isnt much at all
Transformer
22-12-05, 17:34
for one...i don't like the idea and it will never be implemented. if in the ever slim chance that KK decided to put it into the game me and many others would most likely leave the game. they arn't going to risk that over something stupid. KK wants to fix PPU's not monks.
/edit i wouldn't mind a nerf of the monk armor, but without it you just wouldn't even have lone apu's, you'd just have ppu buttplugs.
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