View Full Version : Drugs on PEs
Is it overpowered for a PE?
Ok, there are two usages of drugs...
1. Drugging to suplement your current setup. Example: Redflash for run speed.
2. Drugging to gain usage of new items. Example: Redflash for Healing Light.
Some people just use Nightspider for the Gaya glove and BR3/Heat1/Haz1. Some people use Redflash so they don't have to use PA for their Judge/Xbow setup and thus can use Nightspider to cast stuff without switching PA or whatever. Some people use Redflash and Whiteflash to use Slasher and a Moveon.
Are drugs lame? Are certain/all drugging PEs overpowered? Is it legit? Discuss!
Drugging is common with some PE's, it isnt frowned upon because even though it overpowers a PE in some circumstances credit goes to them for having to deal with the minus effects of drugging.
I certainly dont like drugging and i'll never use drugs in my setup.
Spies HAVE to be drug whores in order to be effective in a dueling/pk enviroment, two drugs minimum.
Super Mario
15-12-05, 06:23
Quick Slot spaces ..... Drugflash .... and it's only temp. I would say i have never used a drugging char as i h8 drugflashes and depending on a drug in the middle of a battle. But i would have to say in an RP sense ... We have proformence improving Drugs in RL ... Why should it be any differnt in NC ???
(Altho saying that we have toilets and cigarettes in RL...(give us our accesseries))
(Mega) Super M
Drugs need some more minus affects right now and a bit less drug flash. Then the drug flash should be made to work all the time.
Currently ya i think drugs offer to much advantage.
I used to take up to 7 drugs with my PE. Now that I'm Low Tech, I need a bit less.
Asurmen Spec Op
15-12-05, 06:51
I used to take up to 7 drugs with my PE. Now that I'm Low Tech, I need a bit less.
When you suck that much huh?
vashtyphoon78
15-12-05, 07:34
Spies HAVE to be drug whores in order to be effective in a dueling/pk enviroment, two drugs minimum.
my ass. your spy must have sucked his own cock.
Seriously, spies have to drug. Kurai made up a quite nice setup with just 1 drug, but the more you take, the better the setup gets in close combat.
About PEs, i can't really decide. In my opinion they just shouldn't be abled to use the high end weapons, even with drugs. Those should get their requirements upped so PEs are restricted to low/mid level rares.
The amount of PEs drugging for slasher/exec is ridiculous these days, it's annoying me! o_O
Personally, i'm using 3 on my spy, 2 on my PEs, 1 on my APU hybrid. Only drugfree characters are my tradeskillers and my tank that i never play anyway. :lol:
I don't believe drugs mean that much to pes and I dont drug myself. The only disadvantage in usage is drugflash, so it remains a choice for most if they want o benefit from drugs or lose cash/gamefun. We can't even suggest that drugging pes are overpowered because there isnt something to base our speculations. Means that pes are ballanced overall, giving a nice foundation to judge other classes : monks, hybrids and such
for those taking 6-7 drugs: try a test which will only mean some loming. make a setup that will use maximum 2 blue drugs. you might like what you see, and it will bring you closer to no drugged setups
Mr Friendly
15-12-05, 08:12
drugged PEs are the reason im against nerfing the hybs ;)
just tonight there was a PE usin the ARS (dex 115) & healing light, still able to use blessed def, Db etc
The ARS is extinct, so ok let one pe using it for a bit of variation.
Indeed my only worry is a HL/FL/Dissie PE. I have never used one pe like that, bugs can illuminate us here. For FL you need 2 drugs minimum and you wont even cap the rifle, with more you get guaranteed drugflash ... however there are A LOT more problems that concerns us right now for ballance actions (hybrids, bugged? drones, ppus, melees...)
drugged PEs are the reason im against nerfing the hybs ;)
just tonight there was a PE usin the ARS (dex 115) & healing light, still able to use blessed def, Db etc
I wonder who that was.. :rolleyes:
jini: You can use FL with 1 drug.
i think the real problem is that they dont have an equal effect for all classes.
PE's can keep adding on drugs for more bonus, other classes get little or no bonus from many or any drugs... (even though spies need 2-3 to be viable as everyone else, once there; more doesn't do much for them) And once monk balancing happens, weapon skills should go back the way they were. (No pe's capping slasher and maintaining lowtech resists with 2 drugs..) Certain bugs relating to drugflash should also be fixed.
yes but its not viable. im only trying practical setups not theoretical ones or ones that one can use when inside nf for unlimited relogs/free drugs and a bit of a "power-to-the-max". also my pes are swiss army: op wars & duels w/o hacking or poking however and with NO ppu support at ALL
i think the real problem is that they dont have an equal effect for all classes.
PE's can keep adding on drugs for more bonus, other classes get little or no bonus from many or any drugs... (even though spies need 2-3 to be viable as everyone else, once there; more doesn't do much for them) And once monk balancing happens, weapon skills should go back the way they were. (No pe's capping slasher and maintaining lowtech resists with 2 drugs..) Certain bugs relating to drugflash should also be fixed.
Yeah I agree. But I think the drug effect on PEs makes up for their lack of PPU support compared to other classes. It really makes PEs shine in solo situations and worse in team situations, which balances it out. The problem is that drugs aren't used by all PEs (including me until recently), so all PEs get the disadvantage and only some get the advantage.
yes but its not viable. im only trying practical setups not theoretical ones or ones that one can use when inside nf for unlimited relogs/free drugs and a bit of a "power-to-the-max". also my pes are swiss army: op wars & duels w/o hacking or poking however and with NO ppu support at ALL
Whiteflash is a viable setup. You see those Slasher PEs with lowtech PE defense? Redflash, Whiteflash, Nightshade (for Haz1).
Only a noob hightech pe uses haz1 :D
Only a noob hightech pe uses haz1 :D
I'm trying not to make setup-specific examples. :p
Whiteflash is a viable setup. You see those Slasher PEs with lowtech PE defense? Redflash, Whiteflash, Nightshade (for Haz1).
Whiteflash is a viable neofrag/zonewhore setup. Other than that, it's shit. At least i couldn't be arsed to relog that often.
With only 3 10 min drugs i can just pop new ones for ages before a flash actually hits me. And i usually get killed before that actually happens. :lol:
Whiteflash is a viable neofrag/zonewhore setup. Other than that, it's shit. At least i couldn't be arsed to relog that often.
With only 3 10 min drugs i can just pop new ones for ages before a flash actually hits me. And i usually get killed before that actually happens. :lol:
You'd be surprised how long 5 minutes is when you're fighting. I mean it's not like you'd be on drugs 24/7. Soon as the fight starts you'd be on whiteflash, but otherwise just the long drugs.
People say the 5 second reload takes forever. 5 minutes is 60 times that long.
It all depends on what you are ready to accept or tradeoff. My prefereances are NO drugs.
In the rare occasion and for uber high powered guns (FL/slasher) I would say yes to blue drugs.
Whiteflash I dont even know it existed
In the end kk allows taking man drugs 3 and more, for the simple reason they make next to none difference or advantage
awkward silence
15-12-05, 11:02
I wonder who that was.. :rolleyes:
jini: You can use FL with 1 drug.
I have an ars and use it just to have fun but it really isnt viable (whiteflash is 5 min). Other than to scare people by taking it off.
A 2 drugged non pa judge with a moveon and a ppr is better overall. <--- thats me
I have an ars and use it just to have fun but it really isnt viable (whiteflash is 5 min). Other than to scare people by taking it off.
A 2 drugged non pa judge with a moveon and a ppr is better overall. <--- thats me
Awk, you can have a ARS setup using two blue drugs already. You can even have one using 1 blue drug, thats what we are saying already, it just that for a viable solution you will need 2 and I mean NO whiteflash (sf, sa, bala3, sri, ref4/exp refl4, redflash)
Edit: lol i forgot the ARS doesnt give +dex ^^
yep u r right
Bugs Gunny
15-12-05, 11:35
First of all, people runnning pes in combat know what i'm talking about when i say MONEY.
Try fighting an entire night on three 10 min drugs and using antidrugs as well.
That's the reason why FETISH wants payment in drugs.
Then as for people using the 4-5 minute drugs.... It will kill you if you base your setup around them. I sometimes use a 5 minute drug to hack belts or use a db sctum, but that's only when i am outnumbered and i try to either kill, die or run in those 5 minutes. Once it goes i get a 50% chance of being flashed, then when the other 10 minute drugs go i have to make sure i take them before they run out or you'll see me type "goodbye cruel world".
All you pes and spies running on drugs must know the (in stealth drugs run out and everyone can see you yet you can do nothing, you're still in stealth on your screen thing) and the (drugflashed can't move can't change quickbelt)
Drugs can give you an edge, but they also have severe downsides. I used to hate drugging but once you learn to accept that they will get you killed sometimes they are a nice way to experiment with setups.
EDIT: i've seen the ARS setup it's very nice, but not viable outside of neofrag.
And we all know in neofrag a pe can do a 2 minute drugrun with all resist drugs, speed drugs, inq3 armor etc on a slasher pe.
Drugflash? What drugflash, no such thing is this game.
Oh, and that the exact reason why I hate drugs too. Drugflash should be enforced by the server in some way and we'd get rid of 70% of the druggists.....
Drugfree Judge PE for the win.
awkward silence
15-12-05, 13:59
Only a noob hightech pe uses haz1 :D
If you think that its your loss.
awkward silence
15-12-05, 14:02
Awk, you can have a ARS setup using two blue drugs already. You can even have one using 1 blue drug, thats what we are saying already, it just that for a viable solution you will need 2 and I mean NO whiteflash (sf, sa, bala3, sri, ref4/exp refl4, redflash)
Edit: lol i forgot the ARS doesnt give +dex ^^
yep u r right
Thats cuz i got an ars :p
Only a noob hightech pe uses haz1
If you think that its your loss.
And i say it all depends on your setup :P
I think I'm going to create one of those anti-drug groups, no more drugs in nc! meet at concenter in a zillion seconds!
They need to fix "relog to get rid of drugflash". I've used it just as any druggine
pe/spy has, but it's not really fair. You need to relog once every 30 minutes and
you will never get a drugflash.
Also there should be a max ammount of drugs you can take or you get insta
drugsflash, either that or make it so that 1st drugs gives 100% bonus, second
drug gives 75% bonus, then 50% and so on.
Bugs Gunny
15-12-05, 15:26
1) When is drugflash annoying enough and a benefit to your enemy?
- IN combat... Now except for obliterating spies i don't know anyone who will relog mid combat.
2) It only works half the time.
3. It would be another Boost for Monks... as they don't need to be drugged... so say "Hello" to REAL monk-o-cron with things like insta drugflash.
Mr Friendly
15-12-05, 16:47
imho, its not the drugs that makes a druggie pe next to unkillable in 1v1 but the weps. simply put, a pe should not be able to have access to the rare spy pistols. hell, pes are strong enough as it is with an xbow Q_@. & PEs arent good in a team?? plz, OP FIGHT: ug, drug & relog, he now has 5 mins of fighting before he has to rinse & repeat. which is definitely enough time to drop a few ppl. he can stealth up go to GR room if he wants, stealth heal to stay alive, can noob shelt, noob def, noob heal, & DB. they're good in all situations. all im seeing here is ppl who play druggie PEs downsizing the actual situation so nothing gets nefd
tbh
Bugs Gunny
15-12-05, 16:50
If pes are so fantastic in opwars how come you don't see any?
Mr Friendly
15-12-05, 16:54
cuz they log they're apu, but thats a completely diff subject *cough* foreign ppu buffs* /*cough*
(if the foreign ppu buff prob was fixed, ppl would be killed much easier with holy s/d on, & therefore, apus wouldnt be a must for an OP war. (like it was back at the beginning of nc1 retail))
my ass. your spy must have sucked his own cock.
idiot, beast for inquiz 1 and nightspider for shelter.
+ yeah my spy is kinda flexable ;)
imho, its not the drugs that makes a druggie pe next to unkillable in 1v1 but the weps. simply put, a pe should not be able to have access to the rare spy pistols. hell, pes are strong enough as it is with an xbow Q_@. & PEs arent good in a team?? plz, OP FIGHT: ug, drug & relog, he now has 5 mins of fighting before he has to rinse & repeat. which is definitely enough time to drop a few ppl. he can stealth up go to GR room if he wants, stealth heal to stay alive, can noob shelt, noob def, noob heal, & DB. they're good in all situations. all im seeing here is ppl who play druggie PEs downsizing the actual situation so nothing gets nefd
tbh
what are you talking? have you ever played pes?
anyway, it's hybrids that must not have access to and including everything above beams
When you suck that much huh?
With 7 drugs, I could have SA/SF/MOVEON/PPR, Inqui 3, 500+ HPs, fast run speed, caped Exec', nice resists, etc. And it's hard to deal with that much drugs whatever you can say. The best Venus's Spy used to take up to 13 drugs. Would love to see him still around. Besides, you never fought me with this template actually, so I don't know how you can say I suck.
Oh, I see, everybody except your little friends suck. How hype.
Mr Friendly
15-12-05, 19:24
what are you talking? have you ever played pes?
anyway, it's hybrids that must not have access to and including everything above beams
great job in not backing up your point with any info whatsoever ;)
& ye, my 2nd main char is a pistol PE.
With 7 drugs, I could have SA/SF/MOVEON/PPR, Inqui 3, 500+ HPs, fast run speed, caped Exec', nice resists, etc. And it's hard to deal with that much drugs whatever you can say. The best Venus's Spy used to take up to 13 drugs. Would love to see him still around. Besides, you never fought me with this template actually, so I don't know how you can say I suck.
Oh, I see, everybody except your little friends suck. How hype.
im really sry but im gunna go ahead & speak for everyone::
if u have to take that many drugs to own, (lamens terms ->) you suck at this game.
& that spy friend of urs Q_Q i wouldnt even duel em, id call a group of clannies to gank em netime i knew where he was, id ppu whore also, just to 100% gank em everytime & let em deal with the drugflash. ;) tbh, hed become the enemy of the server for bein so pathetic as to take up to 13 drugs lol
i dont understand the problem people have..
with the imps and setup i have now on my pistol PE, with an SA i can cap my judge, wear PA4, use shelter and all the usual buffs, wear inq 2 armour and a medium energy belt, job done.
I need TB and CT for me pe :(
if u have to take that many drugs to own, (lamens terms ->) you suck at this game.
Of course a PE can be viable without drugs. Taking that many drugs was something fun in order to take the best profit the templates can offer. Before saying that I suck, try searching what kind of template you can do with 7 drugs (;)). Actually, only 2 or 3 drugs were really needed to throw gun, etc. Others were optional but provided nice advantages. And believe me, dealing with that many drugs while fighting is a very hard task. That's also why I changed my template and hardly use drugs now. I can't stand crafting drugs anymore and there's no more TB on Terra (even if I still have some in my cabs (:p)).
why cant get TB and CT on terra?
:confused:
ravager pe ftw<
If you use 3 int drugs, PEs can wear heavy belts. lol. Mushroom, Blue Fairy, Dest Forte.
With 7 drugs, I could have SA/SF/MOVEON/PPR, Inqui 3, 500+ HPs, fast run speed, caped Exec', nice resists, etc. And it's hard to deal with that much drugs whatever you can say. The best Venus's Spy used to take up to 13 drugs. Would love to see him still around. Besides, you never fought me with this template actually, so I don't know how you can say I suck.
Oh, I see, everybody except your little friends suck. How hype.
Wow that many drugs for one extra CS burst and in 3 mins your flashed to fuck anyway woooooooo :rolleyes:
If you take crescent tabs, tiger's blood, krinakh nightshade, krinakh mushrooms, redflash and blue fairy (all 10 min drugs), you can use heavy fire belt, duranit/inq4 armor, healing light, and gaya glove with PA on. But guess what, your resists will still be about as good as a lowtech PE's. You can cut down on drugs and get equivalent resists fairly easy.
Wow that many drugs for one extra CS burst and in 3 mins your flashed to fuck anyway woooooooo :rolleyes:
Cool thing is that nobody can force you to use this setup. Nice eh ?
Dargeshaad
15-12-05, 21:07
With 7 drugs, I could have SA/SF/MOVEON/PPR, Inqui 3, 500+ HPs, fast run speed, caped Exec', nice resists, etc. And it's hard to deal with that much drugs whatever you can say. The best Venus's Spy used to take up to 13 drugs. Would love to see him still around. Besides, you never fought me with this template actually, so I don't know how you can say I suck.
Oh, I see, everybody except your little friends suck. How hype.
I think he's just assuming that anyone that comes from Venus/Pandore must suck....and it really isn't that far off :lol:
Wow that many drugs for one extra CS burst and in 3 mins your flashed to fuck anyway woooooooo :rolleyes:
There's actually a lot of people overestimating drugs. IMO it's just not worth going for more than those 3 10 min drugs. Everything else will get you killed more often than it actually saves your life.
Deso forte gets my spy to 430 health, without i got 400. No big difference. Whiteflash would give me a tad more runspeed, i don't even feel a difference. Int drugs? Useless. 4 more psi? For what? Con drugs? X-Strong? For some health and maybe inqui 2? Wank.
And resist drugs are complete bullshit, they won't even work properly half the time and even last only 3 mins (i think).
o_O
Well with a normal balanced resist setup, taking resist drugs will do fuck all anyway as you don't need them.
I think he's just assuming that anyone that comes from France must suck....and it really isn't that far off :lol:
...no comment.
Oh, I almost forgot, my opinion about drugs on PEs : one is just nice, 2 has to be avoided if possible, more than 3 you're either roleplaying a junkie, or you're a noob, or maybe only playing for fair duels, or you have to think about a new setup quick.
Anyway those are only numbers, your best bet is to choose similar drugs in term of duration. I only use resist drugs in testing purposes.
Deso forte gets my spy to 430 health, without i got 400. No big difference.
I suppose you meant "Paratemol Forte". All depends on your setup, you didn't take this drug in account when you built yours, I did for one of my PE's who's using the same drug that gets him from 427 to 481 (= +54), which IS a big difference.
I always try to make my template so as 1 or 2 drugs are a big advantage without being indispensable for using a weapon or resisting. That's another reason why I won't use any resist drugs.
First of all, people runnning pes in combat know what i'm talking about when i say MONEY.
Try fighting an entire night on three 10 min drugs and using antidrugs as well.
That's the reason why FETISH wants payment in drugs.
spend a hour on launchers n u will have enough drugs to feed ur habbit for forever lol
p.s. i have used 9 drugs on a tank. 4 for speed 5 resists
and omg DROOOL
but only ever in a 1v1 dule situation :D more than 3 drugs isnt viable unles ur an exploiter ;)
great job in not backing up your point with any info whatsoever ;)
& ye, my 2nd main char is a pistol PE.
im really sry but im gunna go ahead & speak for everyone::
Tell us the name of this seond main pe then mate please, because from what i remember you were playing hybrids all the time.
As for the rest: back what up?
We need to have something as a foundation to judge all others. I claim that PEs, Spies and tanks are ballanced, well were before that reload feature. You already know my position on hybrids adn we have already discussed all that in detail. Theres no need to start all over again. If you think something has changed you can start a new post and present your case and see how others will respond
Dargeshaad
16-12-05, 08:48
...no comment.
Then why comment it? And thanks for twisting my words.....did i strike a nerve? :lol:
I suppose you meant "Paratemol Forte". All depends on your setup, you didn't take this drug in account when you built yours, I did for one of my PE's who's using the same drug that gets him from 427 to 481 (= +54), which IS a big difference.
I always try to make my template so as 1 or 2 drugs are a big advantage without being indispensable for using a weapon or resisting. That's another reason why I won't use any resist drugs.Yeh, meant that one.
And +54, thats quite nice actually. But still, for 5 minutes, it's not worth it.
I like my char to be playable everytime and everywhere. I'm no zonewhore, i hate stealth and i rather fight to death than use it (and if i try i fail most times anyway :lol: ).
And i'm quite sure if i'd start taking more drugs in duel situations it wouldn't be funny anymore. It's not like i'm having problems pvp'ing on just 3. o_O So why use more? Doesn't increase skill.
The further you are trying to streach your setup the larger bonus drugs give. Make a CS pe and you will see what i mean :) .
The further you are trying to streach your setup the larger bonus drugs give. Make a CS pe and you will see what i mean :) .
As i said, i'm for setups that are viable. Not unusual. No need for some drugged to fuck hc pe setup when i can waste people with a termi or an earp. :)
The further you are trying to streach your setup the larger bonus drugs give. Make a CS pe and you will see what i mean :) .
All these experiments beyond a chars envelope are nice if you make them and play them for 5 mins, or when inside NF. If this is what you are after then ok go ahead. Again its a matter of what you need and what you pursue. Like sork said, you can easily kill with an earp and be happy with it and forget all about taking drugs and such. Me, I have chosen to go semi hitech, using a minislasher. I had fulfilled all my targets and had fun using a no cost character prior the reloading mess ofc
All these experiments beyond a chars envelope are nice if you make them and play them for 5 mins, or when inside NF. If this is what you are after then ok go ahead. Again its a matter of what you need and what you pursue. Like sork said, you can easily kill with an earp and be happy with it and forget all about taking drugs and such. Me, I have chosen to go semi hitech, using a minislasher. I had fulfilled all my targets and had fun using a no cost character prior the reloading mess ofc
Actually 5 min drugs are viable with 10 min drugs. When the 5 min drugs run out you don't get flashed until the 10 min drugs run too, so you can retake the 5 min one at any time. Unless 10 min drugs aren't viable in pvp, in which case you'd be right.
Well it doesnt happen like this on my client. Who knows maybe there is a random factor as well in all this. Whatever it is, I cba doing all that when I can do what I like without using more than 2 blue drugs.
Besides its all in the aim/dodge. Setups mean so little to me now...
All this talk about viable/not viable is kinda stupid. If there was a 30 second drug
and you felt comfortable using it and relogging every minute, then it's viable for
you.
Although 13 drugs is major overkill, doesn't mean that it's not viable for the
person using it.
I tend to agree in general, but there are some qualitative characeristics and some thresholds as well. for example we cant accept as viable a setup in which after drugs go out you get drugflash and kneel. thats not acceptable. nor is it when you see the timer bar going to 0 and you, trying to remember which one drug is it thats about to time out :D
Dribble Joy
16-12-05, 16:07
The relog trick HAS to go.
Increase the ability to remove flash by retaking drugs, but when you are off, you are royally fucked over for a while.
As to PEs, remove the mainstat bonuses on PEPA and tweak the weapon reqs (see sig) to get them off the 'spy' weapons.
//edit omfg 9k postage!
RogerRamjet
16-12-05, 16:46
2 Drugs maximum on a PE, unless you wanna use slasher or something.
Oh, and remove PEPA completely (or reinstate old weapon formulas), and unnerf Ray Of God.
Bugs Gunny
16-12-05, 17:23
Actually 5 min drugs are viable with 10 min drugs. When the 5 min drugs run out you don't get flashed until the 10 min drugs run too
That is total bullshit. I sometimes use dolinskin to hack or use db sct, and when it runs i DO get flashed, even before the 10 mins run out.
I prefer not taking the 5 minute on unless i realy have to.
Dribble Joy
16-12-05, 17:26
I don't want any specific restrictions on drug use (I don't use more than 2, but I have o problem if people want to use more).
I'd prefer the old skill calcs, it would solve mor problems.
As for PEPA (and all PAs) I again don't like actively restrictive items, so in addition to removing the dex/psi mainstat effects, I'd like the mst malus to be tripled (or more) and changed to psu. You could use a gaya, but there would be virtually no benefit.
That is total bullshit. I sometimes use dolinskin to hack or use db sct, and when it runs i DO get flashed, even before the 10 mins run out.
I prefer not taking the 5 minute on unless i realy have to.
actualy hes right and wrong
even when ur not exploiting u can let a few drugs wear off and if ur still on a 5 min u can keep going withough a flash
I don't want any specific restrictions on drug use (I don't use more than 2, but I have o problem if people want to use more).
I'd prefer the old skill calcs, it would solve mor problems.
As for PEPA (and all PAs) I again don't like actively restrictive items, so in addition to removing the dex/psi mainstat effects, I'd like the mst malus to be tripled (or more) and changed to psu. You could use a gaya, but there would be virtually no benefit.
meaning even less variation in setups... we can have drugs, for that extra something or for fun and let others decide whether or not to use them. I don't mind at all if you take 20 drugs in order to fight, as long as there is a safety feature that will act against using them. The relogging thing must go or changed so that it will make no effect after 3 drugs. Furthermore introduce a mr. Jones shelter for spies or introduce fire armor for them
Dribble Joy
16-12-05, 18:15
The current skills create more cookie cuttering than the old ones, there is virtually no variation on each weapon at all, not to mention the whole 'high techs using low tech resists but getting well above low tech dmg' thing.
The exec/slsher is a 'spy' weapon, but EPs can use it (and cap it) with ease.
BoH/RoLH should be the limit for them and those should be hard to get decent dmg/freq on, otherwise there's little point in spies.
That is total bullshit. I sometimes use dolinskin to hack or use db sct, and when it runs i DO get flashed, even before the 10 mins run out.
I prefer not taking the 5 minute on unless i realy have to.
It works for me with Whiteflash. Maybe it's random and I got lucky every single time for the last week?
Oh and someone PM'd me saying the Krinakh drugs are only 5 min despite being blue. They're 10 minutes.
The relog trick HAS to go.
This isn't even a trick, this is nothing but an EXPLOIT imho. Thought it was fixed (didn't work last time I tried)
As i said, i'm for setups that are viable. Not unusual. No need for some drugged to fuck hc pe setup when i can waste people with a termi or an earp. :)
Hey, no racism against Hc PEs, mine is using one single Beast and it's still viable (well... I hope so) :wtf:
I have no scorn for people using 7 drugs all with different durations, but I was just wondering, how do they have fun playing such "complicated" chars out of a neofrag duel ?
Btw, I know I'll make new friends talking about "realism", but it's a bit hard for my "immersion" to play a drug whore, since I hardly imagine a gangster/cop/whatever RL or in some movie, asking his ennemies each time he goes in troubles :
"Ok boys, gimme 1 minute so I can prick myself wid dat' niddle, eat that yellow pill, have a drink, sniff some of that white powder, introduce myself this suppository where ya know, and then I'll show you who's your daddy raawwr !"
Dribble Joy
16-12-05, 22:59
You should not be forced to use drugs to be viable, and for most of the game, that's true, the problem is spy shelter. Move it to tl 20.
You should not be forced to use drugs to be viable, and for most of the game, that's true, the problem is spy shelter. Move it to tl 20.I'd prolly still use nightspider then. I'm used to it now, i'm playing that 3 drug spy setup for ages now, first on Brainiac, now on Kapow. I'd rather see inqui 1 lowered str wise, so i could drop the beast. Nastly -10 health. And i don't need the agl/h-c anyway. ;)
Well, just kidding about the inqui 1. :p
I'd just like the drugflash relog removed and the general drugflash strength lowered. I can deal with dying because of a drugflash once in a while, it simply has to have a downside.
2 Drugs maximum on a PE, unless you wanna use slasher or something.
Oh, and remove PEPA completely (or reinstate old weapon formulas), and unnerf Ray Of God.
Slasher pe only needs 2 :)
Dribble Joy
16-12-05, 23:11
You don't need any drugs for a slasher, but it'll be pants.
Lets short that sentence even more
You don`t need Slasher
Judge FTW :>
Agree with dribble, pe's shouldnt be touching exe/slasher or first love dissie numbers and even if they did they should be shite using them.
boh or rolh shoul dbe the limit and they should be hard for a pe to cap indeed
Thing is with spies they usually NEED to pop a drug to pvp they dont have any choice, they cant pick a setup which is pvp viable without drugs it dont happen, i think shelter at tl 20 is a good start and maybe lower the inq down so that move on and str booster is enough to hit the first....
Dribble Joy
17-12-05, 15:43
What I would like to see is the same range of weapons for spies as for PEs.
Weapons from tl 120 to 130. There would be a number of things you would need to do for spy defence though.
If FL/Dissie/Slasher are shitte in a pe then why bother with them? what's the point? with today's setups, the spy is a pe with the extra ability to hack ops/poke. the pe is a spy with DB. We attack classes that are near ballanced and forget classes that need nerfing the soonest possible.
@ Koshin: if I take green drugs kosh, I have a guaranteed drugflash. Some times I have not, but these times i noticed i was addicted to 2 blue ones. I wish I knew the secret of the drugging routines kk use :lol: it must be a well kept secret, or its completely random ;)
Dribble Joy
17-12-05, 16:22
If FL/Dissie/Slasher are shitte in a pe then why bother with them? what's the point? with today's setups, the spy is a pe with the extra ability to hack ops/poke. the pe is a spy with DB. We attack classes that are near ballanced and forget classes that need nerfing the soonest possible.
'What's the point in talking abouta tiny thing when there are bigger things to think about?'
Spies and PEs are not balanced, cirtainly less balanced as they used to be. No they are not as much a problem as other things, but so what.
Spies and PEs are too close to each other as classes. PEs can get spy offence and spies can get (near enough) PE defence. They need to be pulle dapart, by force if necessary.
spies and pes are fine
we need to prioritize, otherwise we get nothing, or things like the new reload and the monk overpower
I still dont think i should HAVE to take any drugs to pvp, if i fight without taking drugs i die in a eye blink i should have a good chance without drugs and First Love needs a big aim fix to be even remotely considered as a match to a slasher or exe.
I wonder why most pes use the slasher rather than the high rifles?
Something to do with ease of capping and total damage i am sure.
I wonder why most pes use the slasher rather than the high rifles?
No idea but I know why mine will never use it :
"piew piew piew piew piew piew piew piew piew piew piew !"
PEs can get spy offence and spies can get (near enough) PE defence.
sounds ballanced to me.
oh, and slasher > judge. period.
sounds ballanced to me.Well. A PE takes about 2 days to cap. A spy needs to cap dex and int before he can actually pvp. Where's that fair then? o_O
Dribble Joy
17-12-05, 18:53
They might be 'balanced' or closer to balance than other things, that does not mean there are not problems and that we should not endevour to solve them.
sounds ballanced to me.
Balanced? Maybe. Class distinction that provides range of play styles? No.
Well. A PE takes about 2 days to cap. A spy needs to cap dex and int before he can actually pvp. Where's that fair then? o_O
try doing WoC on a pe then...
Scaramanga
17-12-05, 21:12
You don't need any drugs for a slasher, but it'll be pants.
Assuming the PE has capped dex and access to all items, what setup would he/she have to make a slasher usable without drugs?
Last time i used a PE was back on saturn server. Executioner was my fave wep. Capped run speed and had shity resists, but as long as yougot afew shots off then the oponent usually spent their time trying to heal and avoid me rather than shoot back with any sucess. That is of course unless i fought anyone with a lot of skill, in which case i was toast.
My point being that Drugs made my PvP much more effective.
Well. A PE takes about 2 days to cap. A spy needs to cap dex and int before he can actually pvp. Where's that fair then? o_O
well. this thread is about highlvl PvP balance, not about the time it takes to level a char.
well. this thread is about highlvl PvP balance, not about the time it takes to level a char.
well. you can't take out everything except the endgame when talking about it. Concerning PEs, one thing that needs to be taken into the equation is their leveling speed.
@jini
WoC is a different thing. But sucks for PEs, yeah. :lol:
well. you can't take out everything except the endgame when talking about it. Concerning PEs, one thing that needs to be taken into the equation is their leveling speed.
then the leveling balance needs to be addressed, not the PvP balance. open another thread if that's your concern.
same as with PPUs..it may suck to level/play one, but that's hardly a reason that they should be 'ubar'.
PEs can do a bit of everything. And they're rather easy to level. Piss easy actually. They should NOT be as good with pistols/rifles as spies who got 20 more dex. That's my concern.
:rolleyes:
I guess you don't have a problem with spies wearing inqui armor and using shelter, right? :lol:
edit: I wouldn't have a problem with re-balancing spies and PEs. that would mean making it harder/impossible for the PE to use highlvl rares, but at the same time make it harder/impossible for a Spy to get PE-like defence. (120+ xray PA anyone?)
all I'm saying is that atm spies and PEs are quite balanced.
I guess you don't have a problem with spies wearing inqui armor and using shelter, right? :lol:
Inquisition armour was originally meant for Spies, however their Strength got dropped from 50 to 40 and their Dex increased from 90 to 100 after the community asked for it (easier to access the high level rifles).
Inquisition armour was originally meant for Spies, however their Strength got dropped from 50 to 40 and their Dex increased from 90 to 100 after the community asked for it (easier to access the high level rifles).
Still, PEs drug for weapons, spies for defence. If you take away the high end
weapons for the PE, then take away some defence from the spy.
I'm all for limiting PEs to BoH/RoLH tops though.
Still, PEs drug for weapons, spies for defence. If you take away the high end
weapons for the PE, then take away some defence from the spy.
I'm all for limiting PEs to BoH/RoLH tops though.
Well you do in a way. If you increase the dex reqs on some of the high end weapons, spies have to sacrifice some of their defence to use them. Either that or drug even more then they already do. But even drugging has its limits.
Still, PEs drug for weapons, spies for defence. If you take away the high end
weapons for the PE, then take away some defence from the spy.
I'm all for limiting PEs to BoH/RoLH tops though.
Fact is tho a spy HAS to drug to pvp
A pe can pick a range of weapons and pvp he dosent NEED to drug to pvp he drugs for higher end weapons or higher armour.
A spy no matter what gun he picks has to use to drugs to gain defense and be able to fight especially a pistol spy... no other class is forced to take a single drug to be pvp viable...
Inquisition armour was originally meant for Spies, however their Strength got dropped from 50 to 40 and their Dex increased from 90 to 100 after the community asked for it (easier to access the high level rifles).
yeah, and they can still use it. so whats your point?
err sure u asked him about him not having a problem about spies using inqui 1
which he answered in saying inqui 1 was originally for spies which means therre wouldnt be a problem in his eyes with spies using inquisition 1
Fact is tho a spy HAS to drug to pvp
A pe can pick a range of weapons and pvp he dosent NEED to drug to pvp he drugs for higher end weapons or higher armour.
A spy no matter what gun he picks has to use to drugs to gain defense and be able to fight especially a pistol spy... no other class is forced to take a single drug to be pvp viable...
You can make a inq setup without drugs, you will get shit dmg on the higher tl
weapons yes, but that's the whole point now isn't it.
err sure u asked him about him not having a problem about spies using inqui 1
which he answered in saying inqui 1 was originally for spies which means therre wouldnt be a problem in his eyes with spies using inquisition 1
well we are discussing balance for neocron as it is, not for neocron as it was. my point was that at the moment (read: not years ago, _now_), PEs use imps/drugs for higher lvl rares, and Spies use imps/drugs for inqui and shelter, which is balanced in my opinion. and if you want to change one thing, you would have to change the other too, or it would be unbalanced.
edit: and you further would have to take a look how this puts spies / PEs vs the other classes.
hope that clarifies.
all that u said.
yes pes may well drug for higher weapons but they are not forced to take ANY drug to go pvp, they can pvp with lower rares perfectly fine what can a spy use?
Even with pain easers and libbies he still needs to take drugs, why should he be the only class FORCED to take a drug to fight, a rifler can get away with it with a sh but soon someone is gonna be on him.
A pistol spy simply cannot fight without drugging but a pe can, the spy is not balanced at all, rifles suck as and he shouldnt HAVE to take drugs to fight, even a APU the highest damage dealer with shittiest defense gets away with NO drugs and has BETTER resists than the spy since he has all round armour.
Infact the only good resist the spy gets is xray, energy close behind but no wear near enough energy resist since its the main dmg type compared to a apu or a pe.
If the spy could pvp and have a decent defense to actual last more than 2 bursts of a cs or 2 hits of a hl etc then i wouldnt mind that he has to drug for something better.... but he dosent he has to drug to fight.
If my judge pe with no drugs went against a slasher/dissie spie with no drugs i would win everytime no shadow of a doubt i probably wouldnt even need to cap my judge i know i will simply outlast him with 480+ bh a shelter and inqui 2/medium energy setup
The only balanced class in this game is the tank (well before his reload took a hit)
a spy without drugs lasts longer than 2 HL / 2 CS bursts, but I get your point about being forced to drug as a spy.
maybe there should be a way for spies to use shelter with implants, thus sacrificing brain slots for it as the PE has to do that as well to use any rare at all. a spy who has access to inqui, shelter and all highlvl rares without drugs would be unbalanced compared to a PE without drugs in my opinion, if he has the defence that a spy can get atm..having to change the moveon with a psi imp would level this I think. or changing a dex imp to a psi, and use a lower tl rare.
edit: str/psi spine doesnt sound too bad.
Even just a shelter alone would do i wouldnt mind having the option to drug for Inqui but at least with Shelter i might survive a bit more when a energy wielding mad man comes after me.
I think spine would be good, either a str spine and get inqui or a psi spine and get shelt and on that have a bit of a malus on dex or int i dunno its hard to balance i spose.
and yeh 2 is a figure of speach but lets face it what spy is running anywhere once hl has hit him or cs i normally find my legs smashed in a hit when i am unbuffed.
This is a tough nut to crack.
Currently spies do have to drug to pvp at all basicly wich is kind of unfair, true.
But if you give spies enough resists without drugs to be viable it brings him
to close to the PE imo.
Lets say they bring shelter down to 20 psi and let spies use it aswell. That would
give spies 1 less drug to worry about but I still think every spy would drug
for inq armor anyway simply because peopel want the best setup they can get
and drugging is pretty damn easy nowdays since it's so easy to get around the
drugflash. It's the same for PEs using high-end pistols/rifles. It's so easy so why
not.
thats why I said the spy should have to use imps in this case to use the shelter. bringing it down to tl20 is not a good idea, true. but if he has to use a spine like LTA suggested he can either choose to drug for shelter or for inqui armor, or he can just use one and not drug at all.
edit: but all this is a little offtopic since this thread is about the use of drugs, not the effects of not using drugs.
Dribble Joy
18-12-05, 04:14
Beyond utter 'gimpage', a spy cannot realistically reach psu 25 without drugs.
The same way a PE could not cap a slasher without completely fucking over their setup before the skill changes.
Assuming the PE has capped dex and access to all items, what setup would he/she have to make a slasher usable without drugs?
You don't want to know.
Ok... The max dex you can get on a PE without drugs is 118. A semi-realistic combat setup gets you 113.
MC5 Synaptic Accelerator CPU, MC5 Rigger's Dream, Special Forces CPU, Balance Advancer 3, Experimental Reflex Booster 4, PE PA 4 and... here's the part that kills the setup... a DoY Eye (rep/vhc/rec). That's right, no free +15 rc/pc.
You get 118 using certain machina gloves. The only thing you can do with a machina glove on is tl10 heal.
Beyond utter 'gimpage', a spy cannot realistically reach psu 25 without drugs.
The same way a PE could not cap a slasher without completely fucking over their setup before the skill changes.
I did :D
Back then hardly anyone capped RoF anyway, especially not the mid high-techers (Judge, RoG, whatever else). Unless of course you used a kami chip (like you), but I didn't. I was taking 3 drugs though, so it had its downpoints.
We can do what is the easiest thing to implement at all, and never touch or imballance things (provided the boss wants ;))
1. introduce a mr. jones shelter
2. lower crahn shelter psi req to psi=20, adjust for ppu
As a pe, i prefer the second option.
However, doing so and we are threatening a lot tanks. Because, when a spy has his shelter on, he is getting something better than tanks defences in all but poison. Actually no. It sounds pretty ballanced, since the spy is weak both in fire and poison and with the nib sheler he can forget about drugging
i been reading a good part of this thread and here's how it goes :
group A "nerf PES nerf PES"
group B "nerf monks"
LOL guys, really.
drugs are one of the best feature in this game, period.
u need those 3 more DEX pts to use new weapon : DRUG UP
u really wanna use that shelter on ur spy : DRUG UP
cant hack that belt huh ? : D.R.U.G. U.P.
PEs should be allowed to use high end weps, period.
if weapons would be bound to specific classes id prolly quit. (xept for spells of course)
i like drugs, and the relog/drugflash is ok.
THE LAST THING THIS GAME NEEDS IS A PE/SPY NERF !!!
WAKE UP !!!!
on another note, tell me what u guys think but, i think mon INT should be nerfed, and that they shouldnt be able to hack OPs, thus forcing clans to bring SPYS to OPs.They should have a high TL PSI belt for nrg/xray instead.
The only thing you can do with a machina glove on is tl10 heal.
Cool, really ? The Rejuv doesn`t need a PSI Glove equipped ? :D
Not asking for pe's to be nerfed, asking for them to not reach tl 113 rares and if they do reach tl 113 rares to be very gimped using them, they are the speis end game weapons, fix the ROLH, BOH, ROG, Redeemer and theres a entire line for the pes with ROLH being the limit of Capped setup.
I'd rather liek DJ said the Pe PA loses it's +dex and - psi Bonuses...or the pistols were pushed upto 115/116 so spies with pa 3 on can use them but no pe bar heavily drugged or gimped imp'd pe's.
There's no denying drugs are very good just dont see that the spy should be forced to take 1 if not 2 drugs to pvp at all
Edit - and that last point about monks, why i am all for anything that promotes other classes being needed and lessens the amount a monk can do, i wonder how many people would bother with the ops tho if there monk couldnt hack it?
Cool, really ? The Rejuv doesn`t need a PSI Glove equipped ? :D
no :D courtesy of mr. Jones :D
@kame nice reply bobby :)
Dribble Joy
18-12-05, 15:48
Spy offence is less than that of tanks (infact these days it's barely seperable from that of PEs) so defence wise shelter is needed, and tanks getting a self cast shelter would be seriously iffy.
I'm not asking for a nerf either, rather a reorganisation. It's as much a mess as it is unbalanced. It needs straightening out and simplified, with more variation (even if that means the two classes individually have fewer weapons to choose from, but more options on each of those weapons).
Not asking for pe's to be nerfed, asking for them to not reach tl 113 rares and if they do reach tl 113 rares to be very gimped using them, they are the speis end game weapons,[...]
I'll say it again: if a PE will not be able to use the highlvl rares and nothing about the spy changes, everyone will just play a spy. with the right setup you get (nearly) PE defence, you get better stealth, you get the highlvl rares and you get enough int points to hack ops or imp tl115.
if you dont want that a PE uses highlvl rares because he has only dex 80 base, a spy should not be able to have a good resist setup, because he only has 40 str / con. easy. no high lvl rares for PE, no 120+ xray armor from PA for the spy. and if you change this, you would have to ballance all other classes as well.
Cool, really ? The Rejuv doesn`t need a PSI Glove equipped ? :D
Yeah, what Jini said. Basically the Mr. Jones epic items don't really have a main stat requirement (int/str/con/dex/psi), just a substat requirement (vhc/ppu/apu/rc/etc). That also means that the tl10 heal doesn't require a psi glove for some reason.
I'll say it again: if a PE will not be able to use the highlvl rares and nothing about the spy changes, everyone will just play a spy. with the right setup you get (nearly) PE defence, you get better stealth, you get the highlvl rares and you get enough int points to hack ops or imp tl115.
if you dont want that a PE uses highlvl rares because he has only dex 80 base, a spy should not be able to have a good resist setup, because he only has 40 str / con. easy. no high lvl rares for PE, no 120+ xray armor from PA for the spy. and if you change this, you would have to ballance all other classes as well.
Hate to break it to you, but that's completely wrong.
Why do people play lowtech pes? Judge pes? Or basically, anything other then a slasher pe? Your simply saying that every pe uses the high-end "spy" weapons, and if they don't get to use them, they'll roll a spy.
Spies get near pe defenses. And the only way they do get near pe defenses is by using both the Moveon and Proto chips, which means even more drugging for weapons/speed. And pes don't need to drug at all to get "pe" types of resists/health. Not to mention a pe can damageboost, also without drugging.
By removing the pes ability to use the high end spy weapons, your giving people a reason to play a spy, rather then a similarily drugged up pe who can use damageboost aswell and has better resists.
there might be a slight difference between spy defence and PE defence, but the spy has other advantages like better stealth, more int (for imp/hack or whatever).
and I know about 2 lowtech PEs on my server. sure, there might be more, but I think its safe to assume 90+% of PEs are hightech. and there's a reason for that: 5-10% more defence doesnt make up for 30-50% less offence.
damageboost: one drug and its gone. maybe its useful in group fights, but if you die in a 1on1 because of dam boost you're doing something wrong.
by removing the ability for PEs to use highlvl weapons you are removing the need for a PE. IF you dont balance everything else accordingly.
by removing the ability for PEs to use highlvl weapons you are removing the need for a PE. IF you dont balance everything else accordingly.
See, you keep saying that... I've played a PE since day 1 nc1 retrail. I started
out with a pistol pe and aftera while made a rifle aswell. They have both been
lowtech PEs 99% of the time. Every once in a while I have lommed to hightech
for some variation, but never gone higher then judge.
So it's safe to say that PEs will live on even without slasher/exe.
and I know about 2 lowtech PEs on my server. sure, there might be more, but I think its safe to assume 90+% of PEs are hightech. and there's a reason for that: 5-10% more defence doesnt make up for 30-50% less offence.
90%+ of pes aren't hightech, let alone slasher/any weapon >tl 110.
There would still be alot more advantages to being a pe then a spy, even if the pes lost access to the > tl 110 weapons. The biggest being you don't need to drug near as much.
So it's safe to say that PEs will live on even without slasher/exe.
your PEs being lowtech 99% of the time doesnt say anything about the hightech/lowtech PE percentage.
I'm lowtech as well, and I know the shortcomings of that. tbh the only reason I'm not hightech is because the slasher is so damn ugly.
sultana: if you want to be competitive as a PE you _need_ to drug. PEs may have advantages, but not having to drug (much) is not one of them.
Spy offence is less than that of tanks (infact these days it's barely seperable from that of PEs) so defence wise shelter is needed, and tanks getting a self cast shelter would be seriously iffy.
I'm not asking for a nerf either, rather a reorganisation. It's as much a mess as it is unbalanced. It needs straightening out and simplified, with more variation (even if that means the two classes individually have fewer weapons to choose from, but more options on each of those weapons).
Spy offence IS MORE than that of a tank. Both the first love and the dissruptor are or equal, or more powerfull. In theory dissie is more powerfull, but it seems that FL is able to empty its magazine in 3 secs less than CS provided they given me corect data. The difference is small however to be noticed, and the fact that one can sheltered while the other cant makes them ballanced in duels. Ofc that was prior the ifamous reload kick in :rolleyes:
your PEs being lowtech 99% of the time doesnt say anything about the hightech/lowtech PE percentage.
I'm lowtech as well, and I know the shortcomings of that. tbh the only reason I'm not hightech is because the slasher is so damn ugly.
sultana: if you want to be competitive as a PE you _need_ to drug. PEs may have advantages, but not having to drug (much) is not one of them.
If you want to be competitive as a pe, you need more aim not drugs. You can use whatever gun you like, WE or slasher, but you need skill
sultana: if you want to be competitive as a PE you _need_ to drug. PEs may have advantages, but not having to drug (much) is not one of them.
Why? Name me a reason you need drugs on a PE to be competitive.
Not having to drug is a huge advantage the PEs have over spies. Spies at the very least need one drug (being nightspider) to PvP with any luck. PEs need none.
Why? Name me a reason you need drugs on a PE to be competitive.
Not having to drug is a huge advantage the PEs have over spies. Spies at the very least need one drug (being nightspider) to PvP with any luck. PEs need none.
PEs don't need drugs to compete with druggy spies, apu hybs, tanks and druggy PEs, provided they have WoC1 and an xbow... :rolleyes:
Why? Name me a reason you need drugs on a PE to be competitive.
Not having to drug is a huge advantage the PEs have over spies. Spies at the very least need one drug (being nightspider) to PvP with any luck. PEs need none.
I already said earlier that spies should/could have the possibility to fight without drugs as well. (psi imps for example). no problem. but we're talking about balance between drugged PEs / spies. not about using no drugs at all.
If you want to be competitive as a pe, you need more aim not drugs. You can use whatever gun you like, WE or slasher, but you need skill
when talking about balance, you should consider that both sides have equal skill. comparing someone with good aim to someone with bad aim just shows one thing: that the second one has bad aim.
hightech PE vs lowtech PE, tested with a friend: he does about 40-45 damage to me, I do 20-25 to him. we both have about same health. if you say we both hit equally good, he can kill me twice as fast as I could kill him. same would be true if I tested with a spy. lowtech PE vs hightech spy = dead pe.
I already said earlier that spies should/could have the possibility to fight without drugs as well. (psi imps for example). no problem. but we're talking about balance between drugged PEs / spies. not about using no drugs at all.
Spies can't imp up to shelter, period. Even if they could, they couldn't imp up to inq 1 armour at the same time. So that's hardly a PvPable setup.
when talking about balance, you should consider that both sides have equal skill. comparing someone with good aim to someone with bad aim just shows one thing: that the second one has bad aim.
hightech PE vs lowtech PE, tested with a friend: he does about 40-45 damage to me, I do 20-25 to him. we both have about same health. if you say we both hit equally good, he can kill me twice as fast as I could kill him. same would be true if I tested with a spy. lowtech PE vs hightech spy = dead pe.
There's more to each side then just who wins what duel. Like people have said, anyone can drug up and win a duel inside NF.
please read again what I wrote concerning no-drug shelter for spies. I never said they could atm. I said they _should_ be able to.
my arguments are not about neofrag fights. I'm fighting the whole day outside of the MB, in pepper park, or wherever I can get a good fight.
"there's more to each side then just who wins what duel" ? I was giving an example about the effectiveness of PEs/Spies, dont see your point why that is not valid. and my example was with both of us taking one drug. thats hardly a "I take 7 drugs in neofrag and own you all" statement.
If both of you are taking one drug, and he is high-tech (like > tl 110) and he does that much more damage to you at the same health, then you should really look at your setup.
All the time I spend fighting outside MB, the slasher PEs usually spend most of their time zoning. I remember one basically ignored me completely and was going after someone else instead. I killed him in less then a clip from a pain easer :rolleyes:
Also you still haven't really said anything about PEs suddenly becoming useless because they can't use the > tl 110 "spy" hightech weapons.
maybe those slasher PEs you're talking about should look at their setup then? I am comparing numbers, you are comparing a fight where you dont know how many drugs they took, how good they are, etc. I know my setup, I know his setup, and skill was not part of this comparison because we didnt run around but just looked at the damage we did to each other.
I think I said about 3 times now that those "spy" weapon hightech setups are superior to PE setups without them. want me to paint a picture?
I've stated my opinion on this more than clearly I think, I'm out. at least for now, got some work to do ^^
A PE doesn't _need_ omg!!wtf drugs to compete.
The reason why PEs take drugs is either to reach a weapon they otherwise can't
use, or to boost runspeed if they are hightech, or both. (or to use a gaya glove)
If you are lowtech, cap your weapons, get great runspeed etc, there is no need
to drug. Also if you are lowtech you can get 100 psu pretty easy and still cap your
weapons so there is no need for the gaya glove aswell.
Tell me why you _neeeeeeeed_ to drug on a pe? It's not like taking a redflash
will cap all your resists magicaly.
since this is a quick one, I'll answer: br3/haz1/heat1.
even as a lowtech PE who has enough agl/atl (if there is something like enough atl..less atl you have to skill = more health / resists you get) and psu and caps his weapons there are big advantages from drugging.
I think I said about 3 times now that those "spy" weapon hightech setups are superior to PE setups without them. want me to paint a picture?
No their not. For one, the spy weapons don't do nearly as much more damage then the lower-tech ones as you make it out to be. Let's take an example. Two runners, ones a pe who's using a judge and no drugs at all, the other is a spy who's using a slasher with, let's say, 3 drugs. 3 drugs being the normal amount spies take, red/night/beast.
Firstly, the spy is not going to get the pe defenses, they'll get close, but they won't get the pes defenses.
Second, when the pe damageboosts the spy, they'll be doing as much damage to the spy as the spy would be doing to them, if not more. Of course, you might say all it takes to counter the damageboost is just one drug. However for that to work, you have to take it (which usually means standing still and opening your inventory for it), by the time it kicks in the pe will have already hit you with about 5 shots and can easily just damageboost you again.
And on top of all that, taking damageblockers justs adds to the drugflash you're going to get after your 3 drugs run, which can be anytime. Because remember we're not in Neofrag anymore.
edit:
since this is a quick one, I'll answer: br3/haz1/heat1.
even as a lowtech PE who has enough agl/atl (if there is something like enough atl..less atl you have to skill = more health / resists you get) and psu and caps his weapons there are big advantages from drugging.
We're not talking about the advantages of drugging though.
sultana: if you want to be competitive as a PE you _need_ to drug. PEs may have advantages, but not having to drug (much) is not one of them.
since this is a quick one, I'll answer: br3/haz1/heat1.
even as a lowtech PE who has enough agl/atl (if there is something like enough atl..less atl you have to skill = more health / resists you get) and psu and caps his weapons there are big advantages from drugging.
I'm sorry, getting 0.1% better resists wont really help much and is not a huge
advantage. And the speed boost would be minor, especially if you are pistols and
don't get slowed down with weapon out.
spies can do fine with only 1 drug, that being nightspider.
damboost .. takes 2+ seconds to cast, 1 second to switch to the spell and back to the weapon, if not more.
thats 3+ seconds in which the spy can land about 5 hits.
the spy can carry anti drugs in his belt. just like the pe carries his dam boost in his belt. so it takes a fraction of a second to take one.
if the PE decides to dam boost again, thats another 5 hits the spy can land without the PE being able to do anything.
thats a dead PE right there.
There's only so many drugs you can carry in your belt. Also, a pe doesn't die in 5-10 shots, least of all a well setup pe. However a spy with a damageboost on him/her will come very close to dieing in 5-10 shots.
10 shots of a slasher bring you quite close to death. and you have to consider that in this time the PE does no damage at all, so the spy has still full health.
2 antidrugs should be enough for one duel. if they're not, you better practice your aim.
damboost .. takes 2+ seconds to cast, 1 second to switch to the spell and back to the weapon, if not more.
thats 3+ seconds in which the spy can land about 5 hits.
Dancecasting FTW tbh
thing is ... you do it once, he takes a drug, you do it again, he takes a drug ... you do it again ... now either he takes another one from his QB or now HE has to stand still and take a drug from the inventory ...
and he has to completly stand still ...
2 antidrugs should be enough for one duel. if they're not, you better practice your aim.
Anyone can miss shots, no matter how good their aim is. Like Elchi said, you're not standing completely still while casting a damageboost. Most people wouldn't even carry 2 damageblockers in their quickbelt. So after the first/second you will have to stand completely still to drug the db off. And your still not mentioning that the spies drugs can run any minute, 3 drugs + 2 anti drugs (+ possible stealth use) = huge flash.
"dancecasting"...thats why I'm talking about practicing to aim if you dont hit him while he damboosts you. if you dont manage that while he moves in small circles, you definitely won't if he starts to run normally. you'll lose any way.
again..if you cast 2 damboosts that don't do anything, AND your opponent hits you, you won't have a chance to cast a 3rd one, and if you do, you won't have much time to take advantage of it.
sultana: you're basing your assumptions on a spy that takes 3 drugs. I say you dont need 3 drugs.
funny how this thread got from "drugged up PEs are overpowered" to "non-drugged PEs are overpowerd compared to spies on 3+ drugs"
sultana: you're basing your assumptions on a spy that takes 3 drugs. I say you dont need 3 drugs.
funny how this thread got from "drugged up PEs are overpowered" to "non-drugged PEs are overpowerd compared to spies on 3+ drugs"
I'm not non-drugged pes are overpowered when compared with spies. I'm saying that pes don't need the spy weapons to compete with them. And that by removing the pes ability to use them, you won't be killing off the class.
I think the only way to settle this argument would be to try it out ingame. if you can get a highlvl char and a highlvl PE on one server give me a shout, would love to see who's right. for now, lets agree to disagree.
I think the only way to settle this argument would be to try it out ingame. if you can get a highlvl char and a highlvl PE on one server give me a shout, would love to see who's right. for now, lets agree to disagree.
It would hardly settle the point though. All it proves is one person is better on the day then the other is.
The question, John is: Do you believe in skill or setups/drugs?
And dont tell me about equal skill, because theres hardly such a thing, it's like saying i found these identical droplets of water
when I'm talking about balance, I'm talking setups. to try this out I remove any skill from the tests: both opponents stand in front of each other, hitting is not a matter of skill, dodging is not a matter of skill. thats why this would settle the point imo, sultana.
when I talk about fights, I believe in skill, and after that in setups. I'm not doing bad with my lowtech PE setup. thats because of skill. but I know if I meet a person that is (nearly) as good as me, hits me as often as I hit him, and this person uses a better (read: high-tech) setup, I know I'll lose. not because he's got more skill, but because he has a better setup.
different situations, different views.
I dont understand what you are saying. Give us an example otherwise I dont understand. make it real if its possible
I dont understand what you are saying. Give us an example otherwise I dont understand. make it real if its possible
He's saying that if you took a spy (using a "high" high-tech weapon of some sort) and a pe (using a lowtech weapon) and stood them face across from each other and shot each other without moving, that the spy would come out on top. Which is true in a sense, but doesn't factor in any of the other combat elements, such as the amount of drugs a spy needs to take, the pe being able to cast damageboost and dodge at the same time, etc.
well ofc he will. that's stupid. low tech pe is bound with DB. let him cast DB and then we will see who comes out on top
Dribble Joy
19-12-05, 18:31
The point is that a low tech PE fighting a high hightech spy without db should be just as powerful overall. Db might 'balance' low tech, but it overpowers the rest of the PEs.
Gah, I've allready said this too many times in this thread.
Dont forget guys, a spy isnt supposed to be a fighting class, the int and dex is meant to be used for tradeskilling, hacking etc. It would really go against the classes original concept to make changes so it becomes a very good pvp class, it gets high dex weapons, huge x-ray resist and the choice of any heavy belt, good enough to me.
Dribble Joy
19-12-05, 19:04
PLease don't fall into the 'class x is supposed to be this, so clearly they must be weaker/stronger than the others' trap.
Not only is it unbalanced, it's just unfair, you should be able to play any class with equal viability. The classes provide different playstyles for people to choose from (high defence/low offence, low defence/high offence and anywhere between).
Dont forget guys, a spy isnt supposed to be a fighting class, the int and dex is meant to be used for tradeskilling, hacking etc. It would really go against the classes original concept to make changes so it becomes a very good pvp class, it gets high dex weapons, huge x-ray resist and the choice of any heavy belt, good enough to me.
of course tradeskillers..
Thats why they have the highest tl weapons in the game bar the doom beamer :wtf:
Dont look at me
Should he, however, choose to hone his physical fighting skills he will have a much harder time doing so than will the Private Eye
Which is true now, it would be near impossible but the choice of belts and high TL weapons make it a bit more feasible.
The point is that a low tech PE fighting a high hightech spy without db should be just as powerful overall. Db might 'balance' low tech, but it overpowers the rest of the PEs.
Gah, I've allready said this too many times in this thread.
It's hardly possible now though. Considering that spies get nearly the same defense as a PE. If it was to be balanced that way, either the lowtechers would do way too much damage, or the hightechers would not do enough.
well ofc he will. that's stupid. low tech pe is bound with DB. let him cast DB and then we will see who comes out on top
spy shoots, PE damboosts. spy takes anti dam boost drug.
PE has lost 120 hp, Spy has lost 0.
spy is still shooting, PE damboosts a second time. spy takes anti damboost drug.
PE has lost 240 hp, Spy has lost 0.
I'm quite sure who will 'come out on top'. of course the numbers are made up, but I hope you get my point.
most people I meet dont carry anti damboost drugs with them - but thats not my fault, is it?
About PEs, i can't really decide. In my opinion they just shouldn't be abled to use the high end weapons, even with drugs. Those should get their requirements upped so PEs are restricted to low/mid level rares.
The amount of PEs drugging for slasher/exec is ridiculous these days, it's annoying me! o_O
So PE's shouldnt use high end weapons? but Monks, Tanks and spies get to, thus PE's are pointless to play because they cant compete. See Tanks usually use a CS in battle, why because its one of the best HC weapons in battle, and spies you use healing light or slasher because they are the best rifle/pistol.
So pe's should use a lib or a wyatt? Don't make me laugh! Serious PE's are designed to be able to do a few things depending on what you like, but it's bloody hard to do it, instead of having the str or dex they need they have to really focus and drug... thats the whole idea behind them. If it wasnt they'd have more dex or more str or be deleted.
Anyway just so you know, if there is something in the game you can use to gain an advantage why not? Others will and you'll be left behind if you dont. Like using a TL 3 grenade launcher and recycled armour against someone with PA and a CS, doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out who'll win.
Dribble Joy
19-12-05, 20:16
It's amazing how much people con completely miss the point of a conversation and/or utterly forget to think outside the confines of the current ingame system.
It's not just about taking slasher/exec away from PEs, it's about a wholesale rework to provide a more balanced or varied endgame.
I don't think you should have to take drugs to be viable, but you should have to take a fair amount (2+) if you want to be able to kick some ass.
I don't have a problem with PE's drugging to use higher TL weapons, ASLONG as they suffer for it.
Ive never seen a slasher PE in ages, these days its much more common to see PE's drugging for haz1 and resist support 3.
So PE's shouldnt use high end weapons? but Monks, Tanks and spies get to, thus PE's are pointless to play because they cant compete. See Tanks usually use a CS in battle, why because its one of the best HC weapons in battle, and spies you use healing light or slasher because they are the best rifle/pistol.
So pe's should use a lib or a wyatt? Don't make me laugh! Serious PE's are designed to be able to do a few things depending on what you like, but it's bloody hard to do it, instead of having the str or dex they need they have to really focus and drug... thats the whole idea behind them. If it wasnt they'd have more dex or more str or be deleted.
Anyway just so you know, if there is something in the game you can use to gain an advantage why not? Others will and you'll be left behind if you dont. Like using a TL 3 grenade launcher and recycled armour against someone with PA and a CS, doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out who'll win.You completely missed my point. Thank you. o_O
The idea about the PE is that he is designed to do a bit of everything. Not everything the other classes can (Well, some). That's my problem. Why a spy if a PE can do all that and damageboost/heal better/cast faster shelter + deflector/has more health? AND use a capped exec/slasher/FL/healing light. Where's the sense in that? Hell, they even got their stealth back...
Zheo your wrong.
Granted most highter TL rare weapons do more damage then lower ones but like Kid said a PE is a skill balanced class. Granted lower TL weapons like the Judge, libby, wyatt dont do as much damage per minute as the slasher etc PE's make up for this with better defensive psi spells, better armour, belts etc.
spy shoots, PE damboosts. spy takes anti dam boost drug.
PE has lost 120 hp, Spy has lost 0.
spy is still shooting, PE damboosts a second time. spy takes anti damboost drug.
PE has lost 240 hp, Spy has lost 0.
I'm quite sure who will 'come out on top'. of course the numbers are made up, but I hope you get my point.
most people I meet dont carry anti damboost drugs with them - but thats not my fault, is it?
your numbers are totally wrong. a lowtech pe can runcast a DB in a sec or less. The DB is not a necessity in a duel but it can finish off a fight when the other one is less skilled. I agree that there are some players who are very good, and you cant afford to cast a DB but again its not necessary. For pes and tanks anyway... You cant expect to have more than 2 slots in QB for anitdb. A low techie can throw you DB in no time, and some players that never miss DB casts it till they see it stack
The point is that a low tech PE fighting a high hightech spy without db should be just as powerful overall. Db might 'balance' low tech, but it overpowers the rest of the PEs.
Gah, I've allready said this too many times in this thread.
DJ, the best setup out there for pes ( I would say better even from an xbow pe) is the judge PE. It is the judge because you can use it with DB effectively. In which case the judge becomes stronger than the slasher. If you were a slasher PE you would know, that casting DB in a duel could mean your life. Hi tech pes are not so capable with DB because of low psu. They miscast and they cant rucast the damn thing, so they risk their lifesso where is the overpower?
You speak of things you dont know. As far as I know, you are still stuck in that judge of yours. Try DB in a slasher setup or ask Bugs to tell you if its possible. If you as a hitechie meet a good player and try to Db you are dead or left with less than 30% overall health
your numbers are totally wrong. a lowtech pe can runcast a DB in a sec or less.
The max freq of DB is 52/min... which is LESS than 1 / second. PEs never ever get 52/min DB unless they're like Melee PEs with all int in psi use and gaya glove. 40/min, which is more than what most PEs would get, takes 1.5 seconds to cast.
So I'd have to say... "your numbers are totally wrong."
Try DB in a slasher setup or ask Bugs to tell you if its possible. If you as a hitechie meet a good player and try to Db you are dead or left with less than 30% overall health
Um... that's wrong. You're assuming they'll hit you with every shot as you DB them. And you're assuming they take anti-db. The sad truth is that 95%+ of players don't take anti-db drugs. As a slasher setup you can easilly DB players while dance casting. A second and a half later, you kill them with your slasher. Using a First Love I've DBed and beat MANY good players.
It's not just about taking slasher/exec away from PEs, it's about a wholesale rework to provide a more balanced or varied endgame.
I'm all for that. I've said before that I dont have a problem with taking highlvl rares from the PE, IF everything else gets balanced accordingly. but just taking the highlvl rares from the PE "because they are spy weapons" is stupid. (not saying that you proposed that)
I'm all for that. I've said before that I dont have a problem with taking highlvl rares from the PE, IF everything else gets balanced accordingly. but just taking the highlvl rares from the PE "because they are spy weapons" is stupid. (not saying that you proposed that)
They are spy weapons though. I'd even go as far to say that they were never meant for PEs to use. After all, the slasher/exec is 33 dex levels above the pes cap.
Like people have said, PEs are can be seen to almost be the Jack of all Trades. Even though most are cornered into using a rifle/pistol. They still have higher stregth, therefore better access to armour then spies. Better Psi abilities and a higher constitution cap then spies. So why then, should they be able to use the spy weapons better then the spies can use them themselves?
You keep saying that spies get "near" pe resists. They actually miss out on alot. First, they don't have poison, period. And on top of not having poison they miss out on 100hp (If the pe didn't spec poison, then the gap would be more like 150hp). And still better resists (if only by a couple of points).
KK should boost the hl/slasher/exec to tl 114 or above. That way you couldn't use the setup, "SA/SF/Exp. Ball. 3/Moveon or Proto/Exp. 4 Back./PA 4" and then take redflash and whiteflash to use the weapons (which equals 113 dex). This way, at least the pes will losing something when they want to use the slasher/exec/hl, either some combat bonuses from the ballistic chip, or some resists from the Resist Chip.
Dribble Joy
20-12-05, 04:18
PEs will allways use the highest possible TL weapons, by simple virtue of people wanting to explore the limits of a char and variation from the norm, which I have no problem with as such. The problem is when they can use them as well as a spy can.
We were so close with the old skills to some kind of balance, the only issue was that of class distinction.
It's as much a problem that Spies as well have no room too explore, that's another reason why I want to see tl 120-130 weapons, so that they are masters of dex as much as tanks and apus are masters or str and psi. A spy would have as much trouble using a tl130 weapon as a PE would using a slasher.
A spy would have as much trouble using a tl130 weapon as a PE would using a slasher.
Yup, but the spy would take massive loss in con where the pe barely takes a hit. :(
You probably know that but thought i would mention it anyways.
KK should boost the hl/slasher/exec to tl 114 or above. That way you couldn't use the setup, "SA/SF/Exp. Ball. 3/Moveon or Proto/Exp. 4 Back./PA 4" and then take redflash and whiteflash to use the weapons (which equals 113 dex). This way, at least the pes will losing something when they want to use the slasher/exec/hl, either some combat bonuses from the ballistic chip, or some resists from the Resist Chip.
My pe uses a slightly diffrent setup and i get better resists then hightech pe's out there with that setup and im only on 2 drugs. The tl's would have to be raised to 118 to be just out of reach realy. I would rather somthing that just gave pe's a handicap for capping the gun when using them. Like a penalty in p-c if its not a spy weilding it or somthing. Just a thought.
Dribble Joy
20-12-05, 06:31
Indeed, as I outlined in my thread (see sig) with a tl 120+ weapon you would not be able to use inq without some batshit crazy setup and the high tl weapons though more powerful would warrant an armour increase somewhere, and so small amounts of fire/energy could be added to the battle armour line (would helkp people leveling too).
Spy defence in general needs sorting out anyway, I mean, Spy PA is insane, you simply do not have to consider an entire armour type at all in your setup.
My pe uses a slightly diffrent setup and i get better resists then hightech pe's out there with that setup and im only on 2 drugs. The tl's would have to be raised to 118 to be just out of reach realy. I would rather somthing that just gave pe's a handicap for capping the gun when using them. Like a penalty in p-c if its not a spy weilding it or somthing. Just a thought.
The higher the better really. But the only thing is, that by doing this your leaving a huge gap inbetween rares on the tech level scale. Like from RoLH which is 108, then a sudden jump of 10 tech levels to 118. Ah well.
The max freq of DB is 52/min... which is LESS than 1 / second. PEs never ever get 52/min DB unless they're like Melee PEs with all int in psi use and gaya glove. 40/min, which is more than what most PEs would get, takes 1.5 seconds to cast.
So I'd have to say... "your numbers are totally wrong."
Um... that's wrong. You're assuming they'll hit you with every shot as you DB them. And you're assuming they take anti-db. The sad truth is that 95%+ of players don't take anti-db drugs. As a slasher setup you can easilly DB players while dance casting. A second and a half later, you kill them with your slasher. Using a First Love I've DBed and beat MANY good players.
Sometimes you act as if you were a noob player kosh. Or else I dont know ...
a good low tech PE using also a gaya can cast the DB in less way less than a sec. This game is not just numbers. There is a halfcasting feature that gifts those that invest in PSU/ppu. The most exotic setp is I think the ppu def2+ gaya which I have tried, but dropped it because it needed a drug. You dont want to know how fast I was Dbing, and theres simply noway someone can escape DB using drugs. So for those pes casting a DB is as much as pressing the button and turning the wheel = .5 s :cool:
Now as a slasher user:
ofc I'm not asuming they will hit me, it was John's asumption this one. As slasher user you will miss or miscast about 50% or more, depending how much you want to cap slasher. It's not an accurate tool you can depend on it. Those that dont carry antis in qb are also those that don't need DB to drop.
The first love is indeed an exeption to the rule as it packs so much power in so little time, but then again its not the easiest rifle out there is it? I would say that a shooting one with DB+FL would go as high as HolyL minus the reload feature ofc
Indeed, as I outlined in my thread (see sig) with a tl 120+ weapon you would not be able to use inq without some batshit crazy setup and the high tl weapons though more powerful would warrant an armour increase somewhere, and so small amounts of fire/energy could be added to the battle armour line (would helkp people leveling too).
Spy defence in general needs sorting out anyway, I mean, Spy PA is insane, you simply do not have to consider an entire armour type at all in your setup.
DJ, you and most in this thread, are basing your conclusions in the axiom that slasher/FL/dissie/exec= spy weapons, with which I totally disagree. These all are dex weapons. If a pe can use them efficiently with a certain setup then its ok. he will lose in other areas. This adds in games variety.
Spies are good for HN, hacking/poking and pvp.
Combat pes cant do hacking/poking comprende?
DJ, you and most in this thread, are basing your conclusions in the axiom that slasher/FL/dissie/exec= spy weapons, with which I totally disagree. These all are dex weapons. If a pe can use them efficiently with a certain setup then its ok. he will lose in other areas. This adds in games variety.
Spies are good for HN, hacking/poking and pvp.
Combat pes cant do hacking/poking comprende?
Heh, actualy a exe pe can hack or poke also while still capping the exe.
They still have higher stregth, therefore better access to armour then spies.
wrong. PA with 120+ xray and heavy belts together with inqui1 make spy armor superior to PE armor.
You keep saying that spies get "near" pe resists. They actually miss out on alot. First, they don't have poison, period.
show me a good PE setup that uses slasher/first love / disruptor AND specs poison. if you can't, I'll say again this is wrong. I dont know any slasher PE that has poison resists.
@jini: as someone before said, dmb freq is 52/min capped. even if you capped it, your 0.5 seconds is bullshit, as it had to be about 120/min then. my PE got about 25, and he has like 75 psi use. your numbers are totally wrong, no matter what you believe how fast you cast it. cast + turn the wheel = about 30 psi use wasted, because you miscast.
wrong. PA with 120+ xray and heavy belts together with inqui1 make spy armor superior to PE armor.
Depends how you setup your pe. I also know most spies only use the level 2 PA (+97 xray), not the level 3 one, to save drugging it on or whatnot.
Sometimes the PE will get better fire and/or energy then the spy, depending on whether they use PA. The only thing they do lose out on is the xray. Which they can easily make up for by drugging a haz 1. Also PEs do have the higher constitution to complement their armour, spies don't.
show me a good PE setup that uses slasher/first love / disruptor AND specs poison. if you can't, I'll say again this is wrong. I dont know any slasher PE that has poison resists.
I was going on about lowtech/midtech pes, I kind of worded it wrong.
Though, check the setup at the bottom of the post anyway.
@jini: as someone before said, dmb freq is 52/min capped. even if you capped it, your 0.5 seconds is bullshit, as it had to be about 120/min then. my PE got about 25, and he has like 75 psi use. your numbers are totally wrong, no matter what you believe how fast you cast it. cast + turn the wheel = about 30 psi use wasted, because you miscast.
Have you ever seen a hybrid/ppu casting a db? That's what Jini is talking about, being able to switch spells before it has fully casted yet they'll still be damageboosted. If you do it right, it can cast in a second. Though most pes usually don't have enough PSU to do it that fast.
Though I'm still going by the fact that you won't suddenly kill off the pe class because you restrict the high-end rares to spies.
Sometimes you act as if you were a noob player kosh. Or else I dont know ...
a good low tech PE using also a gaya can cast the DB in less way less than a sec. This game is not just numbers. There is a halfcasting feature that gifts those that invest in PSU/ppu. The most exotic setp is I think the ppu def2+ gaya which I have tried, but dropped it because it needed a drug. You dont want to know how fast I was Dbing, and theres simply noway someone can escape DB using drugs. So for those pes casting a DB is as much as pressing the button and turning the wheel = .5 s :cool:
I am a noob. I've only played since NC1 retail (Nov '02), I'm not a beta vet like you. I don't know all the tricks and exploits that everyone else uses. So by halfcasting feature you mean... something that's not intended to work? Basing an argument off that is like saying the current reload shouldn't be fixed because you can still switch your gun as it's reloading and heal or db or whatever, then switch back and fire again before it would normally be allowed. Sorry, flawed argument. :cool:
Now as a slasher user:
ofc I'm not asuming they will hit me, it was John's asumption this one. As slasher user you will miss or miscast about 50% or more, depending how much you want to cap slasher. It's not an accurate tool you can depend on it. Those that dont carry antis in qb are also those that don't need DB to drop.
I don't understand your english here. "As a slasher user you will miss or miscast about 50% or more" What do you mean, you miscast slasher? Just because they carry antis in qb doesn't mean they'll use it. I know that most of the best PvPers don't even bother with anti-db. So you know, whatever you want to believe.
The first love is indeed an exeption to the rule as it packs so much power in so little time, but then again its not the easiest rifle out there is it? I would say that a shooting one with DB+FL would go as high as HolyL minus the reload feature ofc
What do you mean by "easiest rifle"? Easiest to use? To cap? To obtain? Disruptor > FL tbh.
What is ofc?
show me a good PE setup that uses slasher/first love / disruptor AND specs poison. if you can't, I'll say again this is wrong. I dont know any slasher PE that has poison resists.
Edit: Whoa, that's scary. I hit post and Sultana already beat me to it... basically the EXACT SAME SETUP, but Sultana put in the Nightshade for haz1. Anyway deleted my setup since it's virtually identical to Sultana's, but with more PC and less runspeed and no nightshade.
@jini: as someone before said, dmb freq is 52/min capped. even if you capped it, your 0.5 seconds is bullshit, as it had to be about 120/min then. my PE got about 25, and he has like 75 psi use. your numbers are totally wrong, no matter what you believe how fast you cast it. cast + turn the wheel = about 30 psi use wasted, because you miscast.
Was gonna type that, but thanks for beating me to it.
the setup looks fine .. for a neofrag duel setup. (btw, you can't use PA4 and holy shelter boots, but that will just lower the resists a little because you have to use inqui).
you are using 3 drugs .. one of them is a 5 minute drug. you'll get a heavy drugflash after 5, or at least after 10 minutes. thats not viable to me.
for casting haz1 you have to remove the PA as well, another point that makes it not really a setup that I'd want to use in regular fights.
is it possible to have poison resists as a slasher PE? yes.
would I do it? no, because I tend to fight longer than 10 minutes. if KK ever fixes the relog bug, noone would ever consider to use this setup in my opinion, outside of neofrag that is.
Sometimes the PE will get better fire and/or energy then the spy, depending on whether they use PA. The only thing they do lose out on is the xray. Which they can easily make up for by drugging a haz 1. Also PEs do have the higher constitution to complement their armour, spies don't.
PEs may get better energy, and a little better fire - but next to no xray.
more con: true.
but I wouldnt say that +20 xray from haz1 'makes up' for 120+ xray from PA ;)
all I wanted to say is that the high str of the PE is of no use to him, because the spy has this insane PA which is dex based, and heavy belts, which are int based. saying that the str of a PE is an advantage over the spy is wrong. period.
Well I guess it depends. I was just showing a slasher pe with poison resist, it can be used outside of duels, though your right not for extended periods of times depends on how many anti's you'll have to take, stealth and whatever else. It will still last about half an hour though easily.
Nightspider means you can use the holy shelter boots aswell as PA4. And also, some hybrids take off their pa to cast primes, why can't a pe do it for just one?
If you wanted the setup could be changed so you get slightly less resists/health/athletics and only take 2 drugs (that is whiteflash and redflash). You'd probably have to change the moveon for a proto chip, then the filter heart for a strengthen heart, something along those lines. It's just 3 drugs makes it easier to spec poison.
Edit: Whoa, that's scary. I hit post and Sultana already beat me to it... basically the EXACT SAME SETUP, but Sultana put in the Nightshade for haz1. Anyway deleted my setup since it's virtually identical to Sultana's, but with more PC and less runspeed and no nightshade.
:p
And good luck casting haz1 with nightshade :rolleyes:
all I wanted to say is that the high str of the PE is of no use to him, because the spy has this insane PA which is dex based, and heavy belts, which are int based. saying that the str of a PE is an advantage over the spy is wrong. period.
Well yes the higher strength PEs get is somewhat useless now that spies have their pa and whatever else. I was more leaning towards pes not having to drug for armour. Though, HC/MC pes can wear inq 4 armour and use the some high level tank weapons, which is something the spy cannot do due to their strength
edit:
What I meant by "you can make up the xray by drugging for haz 1" is that, filter heart 2 and full xray bones combined with haz 1 gives you 84 xray armour. Which yes, is not quite 120, but it's always better to have your armour balanced so that you don't have to overspec any resist in constitution. Which spies sometimes have to do, depending on whether or not they use a Proto chip, or if they bother going above (say) 110 resist (fire/eneregy).
I am a noob. I've only played since NC1 retail (Nov '02), I'm not a beta vet like you. I don't know all the tricks and exploits that everyone else uses. So by halfcasting feature you mean... something that's not intended to work? Basing an argument off that is like saying the current reload shouldn't be fixed because you can still switch your gun as it's reloading and heal or db or whatever, then switch back and fire again before it would normally be allowed. Sorry, flawed argument. :cool:
Very good. Certainly 4 years in a game should have been enough to learn to separate a trick or a feature from an exploit. In this case it isn't, so I clasify "halfcasting" as a trick or better, as an intended game "feature" which gifts those investing in more psu, while the reloading thingy was and IS an exploit.
I don't understand your english here. "As a slasher user you will miss or miscast about 50% or more" What do you mean, you miscast slasher? Just because they carry antis in qb doesn't mean they'll use it. I know that most of the best PvPers don't even bother with anti-db. So you know, whatever you want to believe.
I meant the DB ofc you can't miscast a slasher...
I dont think its too clever not to bother with anti DB (depending on the situation)
What do you mean by "easiest rifle"? Easiest to use? To cap? To obtain? Disruptor > FL tbh.
What is ofc?
I mean easiest to use.
What do you mean Dissruptor > FL?
ofc= ofcourse, it's like pvp, tbh, qb you know.. ;)
@jini: as someone before said, dmb freq is 52/min capped. even if you capped it, your 0.5 seconds is bullshit, as it had to be about 120/min then. my PE got about 25, and he has like 75 psi use. your numbers are totally wrong, no matter what you believe how fast you cast it. cast + turn the wheel = about 30 psi use wasted, because you miscast.
I dont know if its .5 or .6 but it can be done, it's not bullshit and not an exploit. its the time that takes to press a button then turn a wheel. Im not a swiss watch :p and yes you cannot do that when psu=75, which is the price you pay as a hitecher (@koshin: high techer). Sultana I have seen that in several low tech pes as well. In fact if I was pure low tech I would have done it too.
I dont know if its .5 or .6 but it can be done, it's not bullshit and not an exploit. its the time that takes to press a button then turn a wheel. Im not a swiss watch :p and yes you cannot do that when psu=75, which is the price you pay as a hitecher (@koshin: high techer). Sultana I have seen that in several low tech pes as well. In fact if I was pure low tech I would have done it too.
It's the same trick as the old reload thingy. If you start casting db, and then
half way through you switch to something else, you will still have cast the db,
you just aborted the casting animation half way.
So if the old reload was an exploit, so is "half-casting".
I know this 'trick'. and you still have to wait a certain time (depending on your frequency) until you can abort the animation.
I still say its not possible for a PE to cast db under 1 sec. spell/weapon switching takes time too (more time than it used to before evo2.1) - my argument is still valid, even if you use this 'trick'.
@Sultana: Spies dont have to drug for armor. if you dont take implants into consideration, you would have to say that a PE couldn't even use a wyatt earp without heavy drugging.
@Sultana: Spies dont have to drug for armor. if you dont take implants into consideration, you would have to say that a PE couldn't even use a wyatt earp without heavy drugging.
Never said spies couldn't, I was just saying PEs have the advantage in not having to drug (or in this case imp up) for their armour, while spies do have to. Which is also just another aspect of pes having an advantage in not having to need to drug to be competive in "close-range," "competitive" PvP.
you are comparing spies and PEs. if you say one has an advantage, the other must have a disadvantage respectively. if the advantage of the PE is not having to drug for armor, the opposite must be true for spies. which would mean they _have_ to drug for armor. which they dont. so no, this is not 'another' advantage of PEs.
wrong. PA with 120+ xray and heavy belts together with inqui1 make spy armor superior to PE armor.
@jini: as someone before said, dmb freq is 52/min capped. even if you capped it, your 0.5 seconds is bullshit, as it had to be about 120/min then. my PE got about 25, and he has like 75 psi use. your numbers are totally wrong, no matter what you believe how fast you cast it. cast + turn the wheel = about 30 psi use wasted, because you miscast.And again you're looking at just ONE thing. Spy armor is superior to PE armor. True. But way better con, more hp and faster/better s, d and heal definately makes up for that.
About DB, i get about 42 freq on my lowtech pe. That's shitfast. I can cast it, run around quite far, then switch over in less than a second. Works pretty fine for me. A PE who knows the casttime can DB you in no time and you won't even hear the sound, you're just suddenly stacked with it.
/edit
And if you attack a spy with an xray gun, that's your own fault. Cause every other resist is less than a PE's.
It's the same trick as the old reload thingy. If you start casting db, and then
half way through you switch to something else, you will still have cast the db,
you just aborted the casting animation half way.
So if the old reload was an exploit, so is "half-casting".
Then we are all exploiters, because we all use this trick on something which is even more important than the DB: the heal. In fact ALL spells go the same way bar a few, like the Rezzz. Why is that, I wonder?
This is a feature not an exploit
The realod trick in an exploit
you are comparing spies and PEs. if you say one has an advantage, the other must have a disadvantage respectively. if the advantage of the PE is not having to drug for armor, the opposite must be true for spies. which would mean they _have_ to drug for armor. which they dont. so no, this is not 'another' advantage of PEs.
PEs don't have to build a setup that revolves around either druging for armor or
imping up for it. We simply get it. That's the advantage.
you are comparing spies and PEs. if you say one has an advantage, the other must have a disadvantage respectively. if the advantage of the PE is not having to drug for armor, the opposite must be true for spies. which would mean they _have_ to drug for armor. which they dont. so no, this is not 'another' advantage of PEs.
Drug in general, not just for armour.
Show me a "viable" spy setup that uses no drugs. It doesn't exist, because at the very least you need to drug for shelter, there is no way of getting around that.
About DB, i get about 42 freq on my lowtech pe. That's shitfast. I can cast it, run around quite far, then switch over in less than a second. Works pretty fine for me. A PE who knows the casttime can DB you in no time and you won't even hear the sound, you're just suddenly stacked with it.
Finally the truth is uncovered! not only does he cast fast but he is also precise, meaning he rarely fails. Here is a new wepon for a lowtech pe
you are comparing spies and PEs. if you say one has an advantage, the other must have a disadvantage respectively. if the advantage of the PE is not having to drug for armor, the opposite must be true for spies. which would mean they _have_ to drug for armor. which they dont. so no, this is not 'another' advantage of PEs.
ok, the most fundamental, most important difference of the two lies in INT. the spy can get 40 levels of INT more to do whatever with poke, hack whatever while the pe is limited already and even more because of importance of psu for his psi spells. The spy only needs a fraction of it for psu, therefore making him the ideal hacker/imper.
For all the rest you can find solutions using drugs. Simple :cool:
Edit: I mean the spy ok? not the pe. The pe doesnt need drugs until he uses those hitechs like slasher and such
Drug in general, not just for armour.
Show me a "viable" spy setup that uses no drugs. It doesn't exist, because at the very least you need to drug for shelter, there is no way of getting around that.
I can't, and I never said I could. you specifically said "does not have to drug for armor". you weren't talking about drugs in general.
regarding dam boost..it takes me more than 2 secs _with_ this trick at about 24/min..can't believe it takes less than one second at 42, but without trying out ingame I can't prove you wrong, so I won't argue that.
I can't, and I never said I could. you specifically said "does not have to drug for armor". you weren't talking about drugs in general.
It depends how you take it. If spies do not drug for their armour, they'll have to drug for their weapons (I'm assuming a high-end rare). But if they don't drug for their weapons, they'll have to drug for their armour.
PEs don't have to drug for anything, they can get their weapon, their armour and their shelter without a single drug.
Dribble Joy
20-12-05, 18:02
Technically you can get 113 dex and 49 str without drugs on a spy, but it's a bit slow.
Technically you can get 113 dex and 49 str without drugs on a spy, but it's a bit slow.
I'm using it already. I dont think its that slow but I cant tell with those rifles. It's certainly a lot easier and can be done using pistols. I know because Lar did it. And he was far from slow
Well guys I'm looking at you arguing for ages : spies have to drug up to get high resists, PE's have to drug up to get high damages.
Both still have additionnal specific advantages, like, higher stealth time for spies, higher combat vehicules or transport for Pes, tradeskills for spies, Jones heal for Pes etc.
What was supposed to be the problem again ?
Dribble Joy
20-12-05, 18:19
Yes, back to the topic :p.
The question was do drugs overpower PEs. As I see it, the overpowering of PEs curreently has nothing to do with drugs but with the new skills and things like DB.
The other issue is that PEs do not have to drug to compete (though clearly there are advantages in doing so), but spies HAVE to.
As I see it, PEs and Spies are not overpowered at all.
The DB tool is a necesity for the low tech pe, while a high tech(hi end) cant use it efficiently.
The only problem spies do have at the moment is they need a drug to put shelter on
All the rest of classes hardly need drugs to pvp.
Some people think drugs are needed for pvp, I dont think so
RogerRamjet
20-12-05, 18:33
As I see it, PEs and Spies are not overpowered at all.
The DB tool is a necesity for the low tech pe, while a high tech(hi end) cant use it efficiently.
The only problem spies do have at the moment is they need a drug to put shelter on
All the rest of classes hardly need drugs to pvp.
Some people think drugs are needed for pvp, I dont think so
Dude, i had 140 psi use on my hitech judge PE.
I can use DB very very effeciently.
Roger, this is why i specify it. Only hi end techs like slasher exec and the like.
How much frequency were you getting @ 140 psu?
On a 120 dmg/120 freq db with a 74 ppu 48 mst setup you should get about 44/min.
And good luck casting haz1 with nightshade :rolleyes:
Oops.. night..spider? Night..S..something... The +5 psi BD drug.
This game needs better names.
I mean think about it.
Psi Attack 3. Is it the implant? The combat buff? Or is it a non-existant attack spell (like psi attack 2.. only 3). Or just saying "I need more psi." Does that mean psi levels or "mana"/psipool?
And btw Jini, I can get a HUGE amount of psi use on a hightech PE setup.
Yes I can as well, I can get a huge amount in barter too... question is: you do? If you think its wise to do so, then do it. I won't
On a 120 dmg/120 freq db with a 74 ppu 48 mst setup you should get about 44/min.
nice one kid real nice
On a 120 dmg/120 freq db with a 74 ppu 48 mst setup you should get about 44/min.
On a PE? That's like 150ish Psi Use. Would only work on a non-PEPA setup with Night..spider (i think) and Gaya glove. And even then, you could probably only use a Judge to make it a viable setup.
Technically you can get 113 dex and 49 str without drugs on a spy, but it's a bit slow.
Hmm, it actually is pretty viable to use, even though you would be a tad slow. But that goes down to the skill changes aswell. Cause you'd be limiting yourself to someplace around 175 pistol combat.
edit
eer, I seem to have missed a page. My lowtech PE gets 42/min on his damageboost, 120 psu and 75 ppu.
Sultana, regarding your slasher PE setup .. I just made a slasher Spy setup, with the following numbers (hope I didnt make any mistakes, will see tomorrow..its kinda late ^^ ):
offence: same as yours (176 p-c, 118 wpl)
defence:
runspeed about 80
health about 410
fire 110
energy 110
xray 140
poison 70
uses 4 drugs, but only 10 minute ones, so should last as long as yours with 3 drugs with a 5 minute one, if not longer.
PLUS this spy can hack ops (about 100 hacking) and implant tl115. please note he has poison resists as well. edit: and 105 psi use.
so this setup has slightly less defence than a PE (68% to 70% resist protection, maybe 20 hp less), same offence, has better stealth, can hack and imp. I'll post it tomorrow if you want (dont have this new skill program, gonna use that for easy comparison)
there's hardly a difference to a PE .. I'd say even now it doesnt justify the better stealth, the tl115 imping and 100 hack. what else do you want for spies? spies being as good as PEs in every aspect, while still being able to hack, imp and have better stealth?
Post the setup, not numbers.
...
Personal preference really. If you do want to take 4 10 minute drugs, then it is a good setup. However you still don't get to damageboost, which makes the PE even more deadly.
However, that's the tradeoff you have with Spies. They can tradeskill much more easily, however they have to drug to make up for it. Like for example, here's another setup. It's almost the exact same one as before, though slightly less resists/body health to make up for taking one less drug (being nightspider).
It's almost the same resists as yours, 110 fire/energy/xray (which is 70% xray, as opposed to 73% at 140 armour) and 70 poison, with slightly more health. Not sure on the runspeed, will have to check it against yours.
But the main part is, your Spy, who takes 4 drugs, has roughly the same resists/health, can tradeskill and has a better stealth.
However my PE, has better psi abilities to make up for it, that being damageboost (mainly), while a better shelter so that his resists are slightly better. And if you want to count the tl 10 heal (balance issues) then a better heal aswell.
The problem with stealthing and taking drugs is (goes for taking anti-drugs alongside the long drugs aswell) is that once your 5/10 minute drug runs you'll get a huge flash which basically puts you out of the fight right away. That's why the spies stealth, although better, tends to be something different. Because if you have to stealth, 9 times out of 10, you've already lost.
Anyway, my idea concerning PEs with slashers. Spies generally have to slightly "gimp" themselves to use the high level weapons right? That being more drugs. How about we increase the PE PA4 to DEX req 110 instead of its current 105. This means you won't be able to use a setup like the one I'm posting, instead you'll have to gimp with more drugs, or worse/different implants (being ones that don't add resists/combat skills).
Personal preference really. [...]
However, that's the tradeoff you have with Spies. They can tradeskill much more easily,
But the main part is, your Spy, who takes 4 drugs, has roughly the same resists/health, can tradeskill and has a better stealth.[...]
exactly. its up to personal preference - have a little more fighting capability, or be able to tradeskill as well as fight. we can't make the spy 100% the same as the PE but with 100 int.
Anyway, my idea concerning PEs with slashers. Spies generally have to slightly "gimp" themselves to use the high level weapons right? That being more drugs. How about we increase the PE PA4 to DEX req 110 instead of its current 105. This means you won't be able to use a setup like the one I'm posting, instead you'll have to gimp with more drugs, or worse/different implants (being ones that don't add resists/combat skills).
not sure why spies have to gimp themselves for highlvl weapons, I'd rather say they need the drugs for their defence - but I wouldn't have a problem with PE PA4 requiring dex 110 (as long as it will be fixed, color-wise :D )
Terayon, I already said I will post the setup today. you looking for a good spy setup or what?
edit:
Well guys I'm looking at you arguing for ages : spies have to drug up to get high resists, PE's have to drug up to get high damages.
Both still have additionnal specific advantages, like, higher stealth time for spies, higher combat vehicules or transport for Pes, tradeskills for spies, Jones heal for Pes etc.
What was supposed to be the problem again ?
straight to the point.
which means on that Theory...
pe's are defensive spies that drug for offense
spies are offensive spies or pes whichever name you wish to choose for the class....that drug for the defense
why not make em one like the monk....
and make the pe a true jack of all trades lol
you forgot to mention that PEs are better looking than spies - so no, I wanna keep my PE :P
there still are some differences between spy/PE (tradeskilling, stealth, dam boost, ability of PE to go M-C/H-C).
I think its fine the way it is.
you forgot to mention that PEs are better looking than spies - so no, I wanna keep my PE :P
there still are some differences between spy/PE (tradeskilling, stealth, dam boost, ability of PE to go M-C/H-C).
I think its fine the way it is.
I wouldnt mind seeing the pe allowed to reach a bit more hc/mc wise just to encourage some to do something other than drugging for a slasher...
if i could use a ravager i would be a rav pe with no shadow of a doubt not even a consideration :p
Bugs Gunny
22-12-05, 14:01
If you do swampcaves a lot you can do it.
If you do swampcaves a lot you can do it.
yeah but all str drugs is a arse to use 1 rare cannon....
should be one within reasonable reach, like 1 str drug or 2.....
should be one within reasonable reach, like 1 str drug or 2.....
Err, Damageboost + Ravager + PE Defense, all for just one or two drugs?
Err, Damageboost + Ravager + PE Defense, all for just one or two drugs?
or at least not the Shamen drugs anyway
I loved my pandore one lol
Was like a tank for the most part and didnt even really need to db anyone
for now i like the speedgat setup but wouldnt mind something rare like melee can use pot
2 drugs for slasher and 1 for gaya glove. im going for 4 drug setup. pure pk charr
like I said I wanted to post the slasher spy setup, but with the skillmanager I found I'd have to post 5 images to show the full setup, and Sultana didnt answer yet where she got her skillmanager .. anyway, the setup uses:
imps: moveon, pp resistor, SA, SF, Filter Heart 1, str booster 2
drugs: beast, redflash, nightspider, paratemol forte
armor: PA, heavy energy belt, inqui helm/trousers/boots
since you have 120 dex and 104 int with that you could even drop the SF cpu and use the 'small' resistor chip along with the moveon and pp resistor.
edit: by the way, if you wanted to you could use damage boost on a spy as well, but that wouldn't be worth the gimpage/drug abuse.
uses 4 drugs, but only 10 minute ones, so should last as long as yours with 3 drugs with a 5 minute one, if not longer.
drugs: beast, redflash, nightspider, paratemol forte
Paratemol Forte is a 5 min drug. Try again?
damn you're right. I'm not using too many drugs so I thought because its the best of its kind it is 10 mins as well :D
well you would have to skill a little less poison then to compensate for the health, but only need 3 10 min drugs that way. or you could use this 'small' pp resistor, that gives +10 instead of +15 what the pp resistor gives, right? should be enough to compensate for that, you'd just have to give up hacking or imping and skill more wpl to compensate for the p-c loss for not using the sf cpu.
damn you're right. I'm not using too many drugs so I thought because its the best of its kind it is 10 mins as well :D
well you would have to skill a little less poison then to compensate for the health, but only need 3 10 min drugs that way. or you could use this 'small' pp resistor, that gives +10 instead of +15 what the pp resistor gives, right? should be enough to compensate for that, you'd just have to give up hacking or imping and skill more wpl to compensate for the p-c loss for not using the sf cpu.
search on the forum for a skillmanager... msot can export as a text file.
thanks for the hint .. saving as text file didnt include the resists, but html worked.
as this setup does not use 4 drugs anymore it has only 50 instead of 70 poison armor, but thats a fair trade off for using only 3 drugs I think.
uh...I can't attach a html file? why not? :(
I'll post the text version then .. resists are: fire / energy 110, xray 139, poison 50, health 407, runspeed 79. if you dont trust me, enter the setup in the skillmanager, I can't be bothered to mess around with this program anymore.
here it is:
Character Overview for New Character
Character Class: Spy
Ranking: 37/66
None
-----------Intelligence-----------
Current: 101 1
Skill: Hacking = 95 15
Skill: Barter = 0 0
Skill: PSI Use = 101 5
Skill: Weapon Lore = 118 23
Skill: Construction = 0 0
Skill: Research = 0 0
Skill: Implant = 100 20
Skill: Willpower = 0 0
-----------Strength-----------
Current: 51 11
Skill: Melee Combat = 36 36
Skill: Heavy Combat = 31 31
Skill: Transport = 6 6
Skill: Resist Force = 33 33
-----------Constitution-----------
Current: 40 0
Skill: Athletics = 26 25
Skill: Body Health = 112 23
Skill: Endurance = 0 -12
Skill: Resist Fire = 41 25
Skill: Resist Energy = 44 25
Skill: Resist X-Ray = 33 33
Skill: Resist Poison = 56 25
-----------Dexterity-----------
Current: 113 13
Skill: Pistol Combat = 171 37
Skill: Rifle Combat = 0 -5
Skill: HighTech Combat = 88 9
Skill: Vehicle Use = 0 0
Skill: Agility = 123 64
Skill: Repair = 0 0
Skill: Recycle = 0 0
Skill: Remote Control = 0 0
-----------PSI-----------
Current: 25 5
Skill: Passive PSI Use = 0 0
Skill: Agressive PSI Use = 0 0
Skill: Mental Steadiness = 0 0
Skill: PSI Power = 0 0
Skill: Resist PSI = 0 0
-------Character Inventory-------
Inquisition Helmet 1 (Helmet)
Heavy Infiltration Suit v S-11a (Vest)
Heavy Energy Protection Belt (Belt)
Inquisition Trousers 1 (Trousers)
Light Inquisition Boots (Boots)
MC5 Synaptic Accelerator CPU (Brain Chip)
BioTech (M.O.V.E.O.N) CPU (Brain Chip)
Protopharm Resistor Chip (Brain Chip)
Resistance Chip (Brain Chip)
Pistol CombatEye 3 (Eye)
Filter Heart 1 (Heart)
Crahn Power Gauntlet (Glove)
Strength Booster 2 (Spine)
BioTech Advanced Headbone (Headbone)
Advanced Chest Enforcement (Chest)
Bat Queen Arm Enforcement (Arm)
Advanced Leg Enforcement (Leg)
Experimental Foot Enforcement (Foot)
Pistol Combat Booster 1 (Combat)
Spy Booster 1 (Support)
Basic Resist Booster 2 (Resist)
Beast (Drug)
Nightspider (Drug)
Redflash (Drug)
---------------------------------
mps: moveon, pp resistor, SA, SF, Filter Heart 1, str booster 2 drugs: beast, redflash, nightspider, paratemol forte armor: PA, heavy energy belt, inqui helm/trousers/boots
Ya thats what i thought you would be using, but i was using 3 drugs instead (was unsure of the other 10 min drug that aparently wasent actualy 10 min) and ended up with 275 max hp.
The setup you posted is slower, has less hp, has less resists, has a worse heal, has a worse shelter, needs more drugs, and still cant hack anything but one layer or easy belts maybe. I like zorks setup better. Not to mention needs a ppu to poke 115's anyways.
Also you have poison resist. I can just put on a greendragon and have 330hp and massive poison resist.
Edit: Sorry completely forgot about imp gloves.
yeah shame on me for the paratemol mistake .. I made another mistake last night, used med. inqui boots while I could only use light inqui boots .. as I said, was kinda late ^^
anyway, I think this setup still proves my point, even if it has a little less poison armor. if you go for 70 poison with this 3 drug setup you'd still have 370 hp or something I think.
funny that a spy can use damage boost though, I always thought he was 1 psi point short to use it .. but with heavy drug abuse and psi imps you can manage it :D edit: I shouldn't do this shit at night .. seems like even with all the drugs there's 1 psi level missing to activate the second psi imp, so he can't use damboost :( at least until KK gives us the possibility to get crescent tabs again.
The setup you posted is slower, has less hp, has less resists, has a worse heal, has a worse shelter, needs more drugs, and still cant hack anything but one layer or easy belts maybe. I like zorks setup better. Not to mention needs a ppu to poke 115's anyways.
I was comparing this setup to Sultanas PE setup, haven't even seen the one you mention. and yes it is slower, 79/88, not much. and yes, it has less health, 407/430, not much either, and yes, it has a little less resists. but I was always saying that spies get _near_ PE defence. not _equal_.
no, it doesnt need more drugs.
that a spy has a worse heal/shelter is out of question.
hacking ops: spy boost 3 ? there should be enough ppus around in monkocron, especially at op fights.
imping: imp glove?
Also you have poison resist. I can just put on a greendragon and have 330hp and massive poison resist. no need to argue this. as I said, I was trying to achieve a similar setup like the one Sultana posted.
Your spies defence is alot worse then you think john.
Your low shelter percent and resists make you take 15% more dmg, if not more, then a typical pe using a slasher.
Your tl3 heal gives you less regen then your typical tl10 heal pe.
Combine these 2 things and the spy is at even more of a disadvantage, becouse they amplify eachother.
Meh.
spy can use tl10 as well, can't he? will still be worse than PE with tl10 heal, sure.
15% is a bit exaggerated, dont you think? but even if it would be 15%, still doesnt sound unbalanced to me. you want those 15%: make a PE. you want 100 int: make a Spy. you want both: sorry, can't have your cake and eat it.
thats my opinion at least, if you disagree I can't change that. and I need some sleep, good night :)
like I said I wanted to post the slasher spy setup, but with the skillmanager I found I'd have to post 5 images to show the full setup, and Sultana didnt answer yet where she got her skillmanager .. anyway, the setup uses:
I'm Australian, so you gotta let me sleep sometime.
Eh, I answered it anyway. I like the pictures better aswell :)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.