View Full Version : RE: Next Suggestion for PPU
Please wait for the next PPU suggestion or start a new thread of your own, as bumping this old thread only causes confusion.
Nhttp://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=123392&page=22&pp=15
Still waiting.... and (@community) can we please just agree with any fix KK suggest, anything is better than how it is now, then AFTER they have done their fix you can complain/criticise what they've done wrong and whatever to make it better.
Dribble Joy
13-12-05, 02:58
Though the last one did give me the idea for the unified heal rate, all the KK PPU suggestions so far have not provided a sufficient enough change to tackle the problem(s) (one actually would have made PPU necessity higher), been torn to shreds by the community and/or fail to give enough thought into the basics of the PPU and rethink what they are and how they combine with the other classes.
No offence.
What we don't need more of is halfbaked/misguided 'fixes' that try to tackle symptoms of the problems, examples being the Spirit fiasco and other debuff ideas.
Bugs Gunny
13-12-05, 11:12
Well, here's my idea:
1) Reinstate apu-ppu malus, would make hybrids less powerfull.
Make sure that blessed hybrids can no longer use psi attack 2.
2) Remove all holy ppu spells. The blessed ppus and hybrids can reach the normal resurection, which casts at cap freq in 20 seconds.
2) Give tanks/undrugged spies acces to a low level shelter
3) Tone down the 100/100 and above mobs, including a complete redesign of mc5 or make the parts drop from all 127/127 mobs.
4) Remove parashock, and change the paraspell to an antistealth. As long as it's on pes and spies can't stealth. Same manacost as antibuff. (yes assman i stole this idea). Keep it for melee tanks, but only make people run faster, not have their aim go slow.
5) Fix reload. It was fine and ballanced before.
6) Remove drugflash
7) remove tl10 heal, or make it have a high mst on it so the hybrids can use it. Pes get too much from it when combined with medpacks.
8) Make a resurection tool for tradeskillers. Resurects people in 20 seconds, requirement is 135 implant. Add a nice animation of kneeling down and taking out electric pads and shocking the target. Maybe to attract attention make the user shout "ALL CLEAR !!!". It would bring more pilots and vehicles to opfights.
RogerRamjet
13-12-05, 11:29
Quite frankly, im getting a little sick of PPU nerf threads. I can agree with some hybrid nerfs, but the problem with PPUs doesnt lie in the class itself, but with the people using.
1 PPU per 9 people FTW!!1
6) Remove drugflash
Some nice ideas ... but this ? Nooooooooooooooooo
You know i`m a PE player but this just goes too far ...
Restrict the number of Drugs you can take and then remove Drugflash ... ok, that would work ... only able to take one or two drugs :)
Drugs are baaaaaaaaad people :P
Make all monks hybrids (this means something in the lines of Bugs, remove higher spells and nerf the rares to fit the blessed set)
Think about ratios, why tank has the highest def and atk of all the non-monk classes?
Give other classes a chance to survive in PvM without PPU (lower the damage done by high level mobs, and reduce the death penalty, and this reduces the need to strap a PPU on you)
Quite frankly, im getting a little sick of PPU nerf threads. I can agree with some hybrid nerfs, but the problem with PPUs doesnt lie in the class itself, but with the people using.
Correction.
The problem isn't the PPU, PPU is just an option, the whole problem lies in the class concept. Death penalties. Impact the PPU has in the whole gameplay, PVP and PVM in general.
Think about ratios, why tank has the highest def and atk of all the non-monk classes?
Pe's get a better defence because of their shelter and spies (drugged shelter spies) get probably the same defence, if not better then tanks, except for poison.
To quote an old PE often seen with a plasmapistol and pants with "fire": "PPU`s are like nukes. If one has it everyone else has to have it to compete". Think that is about right, was a loooong time ago.
As for reducing death penalties and stuff like that.......when I first started playing NC(right after the last beta) I could play just fine and if memory serves me right, there where harder deathpenalties then. You took a hit and then you moved on.
Made the game feel more intense. Anyways, I believe it is hard to combine hard deathpenalties in a game that is built around aquiring rare equipment that is absolutely necessary to compete. The more time spent gathering stuff, the less are people willing to engage in PvP if they risk loosing important items. Hence the droprules and I also believe this is one of the reasons PPU`s have such a strong role in NC.
Other mmo`s have enforced rules that ensure what you might want to call carebareness (Safety for the player). We all loved to bash those games in the old days. Instead NC has personified carebareness with the PPU. We`ve all grown fat and its dulled our senses. Please KK whip us back into shape!!!!
I know I`m a little on the side here. Just doing a little Pro PPUbalancing speach as I had couple of free minutes.
james_finn
13-12-05, 12:28
I quite agree with what you have written there, in that PPUs are like nukes in PvP - But a good PPU should be able to keep a full team alive - certainly long enough to beat another good team. I think the problem relies upon the fact that PPUs have so much to do in an op war. Lets think about it:
1) Heal
2) Shelter
3) Deflector
4) Haz/Heat
5) Melee/Combat Buff
Now thats 5 individual spells just to keepa member of the team alive, even if you stagger it in such a way that peoples buffs run out at different times (which imho is nigh on impossible) your still talking of a *lot* of work for the PPU. This doesnt even include the fact that PPUs also have some offensive spells which include Para and Damage Boost. I think one way to counter the PPU problem (yes I am a PPU and yes I believe there is a problem, but I dont think its such a problem that they need a sledgehammer nerf) would be to:
1) Remove Para (Im against it any way, it shouldnt be in game imo)
2) Make Damageboost a PE only spell (that way the PPU doesnt have any agressive spells that he can cast - bar a soul cluster but we all know they dont do too much damage!)
3) Change the percentage cap on all of the spells to around 400% - this would lessen the amount of damage a shelter/deflector could absorb so would make PvP more interesting, and would also deal with the problem that everyone else has with the heal being too powerful!
I dont think that any of these ideas would have any problems with rebalancing PvM (except maybe MC5 I think you need a fully capped HS to beat the commander!)
Meh my £1.43
- Delphi
PPUs have a certain place in the game, but wht I don't get is that why we have a single class that has the freedom to be the highest damage dealer in the game and at the same time, he can go to the other end and have the highest defence in the game.
That alone tells us something about the balance issues this game has.
Other games have two separate classes for mages and healers. This allows the developer to tackle the balance issues separately, if the mage has too high damage, they can adjust the class in some way without effecting the completely different class that is the healer.
And I honestly think that if you can present me a PE that has as much health, resists, and armor as Tank does, I will then agree with you that the Tank is on par with PE on defence, not to mention the options Tank has on armor resists.
I think that the current death penalties might be fine when considering PVP, but they are outrageous when we go to PVM, the mobs can eat your health away in mere seconds, that added with the bugs of mobs not actually having any shooting animation half the time, the lag and lastly, it seems that every dungeon is made with the single idea on mind, that you always will bring a PPU with you.
Dribble Joy
13-12-05, 13:22
1) Reinstate apu-ppu malus, would make hybrids less powerfull.
Make sure that blessed hybrids can no longer use psi attack 2.
Oddly enough, I don't think we actually need this.
If all heals are reduced to tl3 heal rate, then though blessed shelter is powerful, their level of attack is very low, if DB is made tl 90 odd, then they would be the class with the highest defence and lowest offence.
2) Remove all holy ppu spells. The blessed ppus and hybrids can reach the normal resurection, which casts at cap freq in 20 seconds.
As powerful as PPUs are, I don't want them or their role removed entirely.
What I would like (as stated oh so many times recently) is the reduction of all heals to the rate of a tl3 and then a rework of the shields to affect all classes equally.
As for rez, I'd quite like that to be a WoC skill that any monk can use by rightclicking a dead player and selecting rez. PPU PA could add WoC +1 untill the monk reahes WoC 1. Speed of rez dependant on PPU skill. WoC APUs would take a couple of mins, PPUs down to 30 secs (or lower maybe).
2) Give tanks/undrugged spies acces to a low level shelter
I don't think tnaks need it, but I do agree that spies should not be forced to drug for something as integral as shelter to their defence. Make it tl 20.
6) Remove drugflash
I don't have a problem with drugflash, but I do have a problem with the rerlog trick. If that is removed then I'd like the ability to retake drugs to remove flash increased. It would really mean you are hooked on them and you only get the flash ( a really long and bad one) when you stop taking them.
7) remove tl10 heal, or make it have a high mst on it so the hybrids can use it. Pes get too much from it when combined with medpacks.
I don't see a problem with the tl 10 heal if it does the same rate as a tl 3.
8) Make a resurection tool for tradeskillers. Resurects people in 20 seconds, requirement is 135 implant. Add a nice animation of kneeling down and taking out electric pads and shocking the target. Maybe to attract attention make the user shout "ALL CLEAR !!!". It would bring more pilots and vehicles to opfights.
Heh, maybe :p.
Make 135 the bare minimum, but increase the speed of the rez with more imp.
And I honestly think that if you can present me a PE that has as much health, resists, and armor as Tank does, I will then agree with you that the Tank is on par with PE on defence, not to mention the options Tank has on armor resists.
A PE has shleter/blessed def (most of the time), so he will allways have higher defences.
A PE has shleter/blessed def (most of the time), so he will allways have higher defences.
Well, then not only Monk needs attenttion, but either PE or Tank need attenttion aswell.
I still think that if KK did some research on how RPGs actually work and they would figure a good ratio between the classes like I have suggested several times, the balance would improve ten folds.
Dribble Joy
13-12-05, 13:34
A PE has much lower offence though.
The different class represent (or should do) different defence/offence balances to suit peoples play styles.
PE: High defence, low offence.
Spy: Medium defence, medium offence (in theory, spy defence is a bit iffy atm).
Tank: Medium defence, medium offence.
APUs: Low defence, high offence.
Bugs Gunny
13-12-05, 14:02
DJ, as for your tl3 heal idea:
Have you seen what happens to a foreign buffed tl3 healed apu when you attack them?
I mean, i have no real love for monks, but i don't want them to go extinct either. With your "tl3 heal ppu fix" pes and spies would be king of opwars and they would last around 2 minutes.
Dribble Joy
13-12-05, 14:23
There were OP fights before PPUs you know. Fights these days aren't nearly as heart pounding or frenetic as they once were.
You know how much better a solo/2 vs 1 fight is, rathe rthan the stand about and pound each other style in OP fights.
I'd rather have 5 mins of absolute seretonic/adrenal bliss than 30 mins of frustration.
The kind of fight that leaves your hands sahking, barely able to walk and with tunnel vision.
If the rest of the PPU abilites are reworked (shields, DB etc.), then there should be a place for all class in any fight. Tanks and APUs as the highest damage dealers will allways be the preference, but rightly so they would die fast. I wouldn't mind the rez cast times reduced back down too.
Bugs Gunny
13-12-05, 14:33
The way opfights used to be was fun, long range sniping and rocketfiring from hills at the gate and then storming in....
However nowadays it's barrel the ug while the hackers do their work
Well, then not only Monk needs attenttion, but either PE or Tank need attenttion aswell.
Err no. You said it yourself, tanks have a higher attack output then PEs do.
About heals, according to neocron.ems.ru (http://neocron.ems.ru) the tl 3 heal heals 45-105hp over 15 seconds. The blessed heal, heals 165-315hp over 15 seconds and the holy heal, heals 225-450 over 15 seconds. If we were to reduce the foreign cast to 50% (like foreign shields) that would go to 113-225hp over 15 seconds, which is less then the blessed heal and probably hovering someplace just below that of a blessed hybrid.
So my contribution is to reduce the foreign cast on heals to 50%, while removing parashock (of course), either by removing it completely or changing into and antistealth thing and see what happens from there. It would still mean that ppus add a little too much then there meant to, but it would be a lot better. And it might just hit the defence of the ppu buffed apu enough to make them think twice about running into the middle of a fight.
Also, something has to be done about UGs at Outposts as Bugs said. All fights now are barrel the underground (for the most part). Simply adding another UG entrance would probably help the matter quite abit.
Err no. You said it yourself, tanks have a higher attack output then PEs do.
And like I said, the ratios are most important part of the game balance. Tank has high damage output = it should have weaker defence :rolleyes:
If Tank is equal to PE, then they both should have equal offence.
Dribble Joy
13-12-05, 15:13
The ratio should be the same (offence/defence), PEs and tanks are currently more or less balanced (ignoring thigns like tl10 heal).
If Tank is equal to PE, then they both should have equal offence.
A Tanks defense isn't equal to a PEs defense though. Because a PEs defense is higher. Why? Because PEs have access to a shelter.
easy enough... half the % damage on all ppu spells ^_^
and that my friends is all i have to say on the subjext until next month. toodle pip
easy enough... half the % damage on all ppu spells ^_^
and that my friends is all i have to say on the subjext until next month. toodle pip
bah, it was my idea :p
bah, it was my idea :p
LIES *looks around shifty*
*whispers* was it?
A Tanks defense isn't equal to a PEs defense though. Because a PEs defense is higher. Why? Because PEs have access to a shelter.
Yeah but that is what bothers me the most. Tanks should be the soldiers, fit for fighting, and PEs should be the general character, not exceeding the other classes in their main areas, like they don't in intelligence and psychic skills, but why do they exceed the tank in defence?
And the access to higher level support spells is another thing. If it really is that good for the defence shouldn't it be Tanks property then, or rather, nobodys property than just support class like PPU.
Yeah but that is what bothers me the most. Tanks should be the soldiers, fit for fighting, and PEs should be the general character, not exceeding the other classes in their main areas, like they don't in intelligence and psychic skills, but why do they exceed the tank in defence?
And the access to higher level support spells is another thing. If it really is that good for the defence shouldn't it be Tanks property then, or rather, nobodys property than just support class like PPU.
Tanks have the higher damage output then PEs, you can't win out on all levels. Tanks have the ability to have a higher defense when coupled with a supporting character (that is, a ppu).
About heals, according to neocron.ems.ru (http://neocron.ems.ru) the tl 3 heal heals 45-105hp over 15 seconds. The blessed heal, heals 165-315hp over 15 seconds and the holy heal, heals 225-450 over 15 seconds. If we were to reduce the foreign cast to 50% (like foreign shields) that would go to 113-225hp over 15 seconds, which is less then the blessed heal and probably hovering someplace just below that of a blessed hybrid.113-225hp sounds a lot more realistic for a foreign heal.
Also just wondering (I missed out on nc1 =[) how did op defenders get to the op before UG zoning, cause it's probably the thing that annoys me the most about op fighting (I die 90% of the time to barrels after being in sync for up to 30 seconds).
You basically GRd to an OP next to it, waited for SI then went over to the op to attack it ...
Needed only one Hack too i think ...
Yeah, well usually the OP closest to the one being taken over was camped aswell :p
So you had to run a few zones. The 3 hacks is an improvement, the UG isn't :/
tankocron ftw d=D
Part of the problem with PPUs is that they have to do so much so you gain a lot by having more than one: they heal, SD, primes AND rezz people
Bugs Gunny
14-12-05, 12:18
You forgot one dedicated task :angel:
Tanks have the higher damage output then PEs, you can't win out on all levels. Tanks have the ability to have a higher defense when coupled with a supporting character (that is, a ppu).
Hmm not much tho
Slasher/Exe pe's seemed to be dishing very high damage to me
To be honest .... nerf the ppus force resist... just give monks the weakness i always was told they had .. force, make self casted deflects the only force they have if any.
Then the entire low tech line of fighters can do something to a ppu and we can bring pain easers, libbies back to op wars aswell as sniping them with sh's or even the speedy.
As for foreign i dunno but tl3 style heals sounds a bit shoddy, i think the heal per tick needs to be altered and shields need to fade with damage
Dribble Joy
14-12-05, 15:20
Making PPUs more killable is only attempting to fix the symptoms of their problems. If PPU's affects on othe rpalyers are sorted, the invulnrability of PPUs could remain.
Part of the problem with PPUs is that they have to do so much so you gain a lot by having more than one: they heal, SD, primes AND rezz people
Having all these abilities wouldn't be a problem if a few of them were properly reworked.
Making PPUs more killable is only attempting to fix the symptoms of their problems. If PPU's affects on othe rpalyers are sorted, the invulnrability of PPUs could remain.
Having all these abilities wouldn't be a problem if a few of them were properly reworked.
I dont see why the ppu should have any right to be invulnerable, he's given up combat to heal ... SO, i gave up being able to heal for Combat may i be invincible to? or can i smite enemies down with one hit?
I wouldnt mind if they had say slighter higher than pe level defense but there lastability shouldnt be massively higher than everyone elses, especially not entire teams of monks, tanks and spies.
Tho other mmos arent nc most of there healers are weak as fuck and get owned before they blink in pvp.
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