View Full Version : Assmans PPU fixery@!!!
Asurmen Spec Op
11-12-05, 19:31
Because its that time of year!
1)reduce the rate of Holy/blessed/tl10 heal to the same heal per tick as TL3, but make them longer(I think that one is DJs)
2)Tweak the monk armour, currently it kicks any other armours ass.
3)Remove TSS(hold that though :) )
4)Holy buffs override nib buffs(who needs em with no god heal)
5) Remove paras effects entirely but make it act like a TSS right ontop the person untill it wears.
5.1) GIVE GUARDS REAL FUCKING DMG NOW
and yeah, Ill put something else in lata
Like it.
Love the idea about turning para into an anti stealth device, i.e. for the duration you cannot use stealth. Would counter all those stealthwhores. :)
Because its that time of year!
1)reduce the rate of Holy/blessed/tl10 heal to the same heal per tick as TL3, but make them longer(I think that one is DJs)
2)Tweak the monk armour, currently it kicks any other armours ass.
3)Remove TSS(hold that though :) )
4)Holy buffs override nib buffs(who needs em with no god heal)
5) Remove paras effects entirely but make it act like a TSS right ontop the person untill it wears.
5.1) GIVE GUARDS REAL FUCKING DMG NOW
and yeah, Ill put something else in lata
PPU's need balancing not destroying ...
not sign
[PiN]Fluffy
11-12-05, 19:41
Yup... Wats the point of a long tl3 heal? You could do that on a tank. Just keep a constant heal... There would be no Point.
/not sign.
Ps: Bad idea.
most PEs can beat lone apus, maybe we should nerf PEs
most PEs can beat lone apus, maybe we should nerf PEs
If the APU is shit yeah that happens ...
/sign
only new thing here is the stealth block spell idea, but the rest is the best idea so far for PPUs. the heal is the main part of PPUs that throws off balance.
i think when self casted, the holy heal would work like it does now, but foreign its as you said. PPUs boost a player but do not make them outheal everyone. if anything this idea might not be enough to make things completely balanced, but its worth testing.
[PiN]Fluffy
11-12-05, 20:06
If you going to eliminate holy heals. You going to have to change the whole OP war/Monk scenario. Becuase this would basically turn fights into whoever can barrel a UG the most. ANd dont say come from another OP by that time it's taken. And this would also make op fights last 5 minutes instead of some of the best fights i have even been in which go on for hours.
yeah overpowered is great when everyone is overpowered :rolleyes:
yeah OP wars need a change. being able to sync into UG to hide is stupid, being able to barrel the UG to camp anyone who comes out is stupid. those things are already stupid even with PPUs, not being able to get around them with unbalanced heals might just make KK make some changes..
scarshapedstar
11-12-05, 20:15
signed if stealth blocker is for PEs only since they don't deserve stealth anyway.
Dribble Joy
11-12-05, 20:17
PPU's need balancing not destroying ...
not sign
I ask what you would do instead.
Heals (and the heal rate specifically) is the main problem behind PPUs.
The rest of the PPU rle can be extended so that areas they currently don't use to the fullest.
Level 3 combat buffs; virtually no use for them at all. Back to the old skills and some other tweaks and PPUs can boost the offence of the people under them.
Move DB to tl 90; so long as the rest of the classes (mainly through above skill 'rollback' are balanced solo without DB, PPUs can retain it as an amplifier to the fighter's abilities.
Foreign sheilds; currently they do not stack, so the classes are not balanced in the team arena, however allowing them to stack would cause problems, due to the way shields and heals combine, so foreign shields would instead add %-hp up to and beyond the hp cap (similar to the way gaya glove does psi).
A PPU could then almost double the power of a fighter under his/her protection, without causeing the absolute necessity for his inclusion or that of another PPU to combat him.
signed if stealth blocker is for PEs only since they don't deserve stealth anyway.
I don't mind anyone having stealth if it was reworked to the espionage/spy tool it's supposed to be, not the LE switch it is.
As it is, noone should have it.
If the APU is shit yeah that happens ... the pe would be shit if he didnt
This is what I always thought may be best.
Holyheals removed every monk becomes hybrid, some can spec slightly more PPU to use blessed heal and shelter and others can go more APU. APU hybrid and blessed hybrid but all monks are hybrid because they can lower the reqirements to cap spells etc, holy parra could be removed and monks get the same frezz power as a spy/tank/pe with frezzer weapon. Then they balance the damage output of APU spells, APU hybrid primary weapon would be holy lighting capped damage and freqency. The monks perk should always remain no LOS, its one of the fun reasons people play monks, not having to wait for the aim to take shots.
Now imo monks are going to be powerfull always, the story says so and they can manipulate matter using PSI power. But they should be killable by all other classes and they should not doe crazy damage but there defence should be slightly better than a lowtech PE. As far as buffs but hitpoints should be around 380, we can't just say ugh holy heal should heal at the rate of TL 3 but longer. That would nerf monks so much people would quit playing, look at how many people play monks and you get the number of people who would quit. It slightly higher than PE/tank/spy players I'm just sick of the whole arguement and wish people would talk about how to balance in the fairest way and not just NERF NERF
Asurmen Spec Op
11-12-05, 20:59
PPU's need balancing not destroying ...
not sign
they dont have a point in this game in the first place, the game was better without them
they dont have a point in this game in the first place, the game was better without them yeh who needs a game with teamwork?
Asurmen Spec Op
11-12-05, 21:05
yeh who needs a game with teamwork?
Who needs a game where your skill matters more then your healers skill.
not FF.
Transformer
11-12-05, 21:08
why not just nerf everyone to do max of 3 dmg per hit, and remove PPUS!!! then fights will be totally fun and action packed.....ppu's need a nerf yes, but they still need to be usefull.
Asurmen Spec Op
11-12-05, 21:12
why not just nerf everyone to do max of 3 dmg per hit, and remove PPUS!!! then fights will be totally fun and action packed.....ppu's need a nerf yes, but they still need to be usefull.
Youve got your buffs, you just wont be un killable, is it that bad?
[PiN]Fluffy
11-12-05, 22:14
Youve got your buffs, you just wont be un killable, is it that bad?
Yes. becuse That puts PPu's on the same field as everyone else. And TBH ppu's shouldnt die. Neither Should someone they are supporting if they can land EVERY single Heal and Shelter. Same with whoever is attacking them... You can Easily Kill an APu PPU team with a PPU tank team If your tank has equally good aim. Granted APU/ PPU teams are the 2 strongest Chars together. But that is becuase they are designed for that. They Compliment Eachothers Strenghts and Weaknes's (SP?)
Dribble Joy
11-12-05, 22:32
Holyheals removed every monk becomes hybrid, some can spec slightly more PPU to use blessed heal and shelter
Blessed heal is far too strong for a combat class, and therefore too strong for a supported combat char.
Then they balance the damage output of APU spells, APU hybrid primary weapon would be holy lighting capped damage and freqency.
So the point of being a pure or having a psi 3 on you would be... what?
The monks perk should always remain no LOS, its one of the fun reasons people play monks, not having to wait for the aim to take shots.
Do you realise how totally selfish that sounds.
Now imo monks are going to be powerfull always, the story says so and they can manipulate matter using PSI power.
RP is the reasons behind a story, events or other thigns. It should never in any way determine PvP viability.
we can't just say ugh holy heal should heal at the rate of TL 3 but longer. That would nerf monks so much people would quit playing, look at how many people play monks and you get the number of people who would quit.
People play what ever is most powerful, they don't care what it is, be it as tanks back ages ago and the old hybrids. You clearly don't seem to understand what the heal rate of a holy or blessed heal does to a team.
I'm just sick of the whole arguement and wish people would talk about how to balance in the fairest way and not just NERF NERF
Given the complete and utter dominance and necessity of the PPU, any realisic balance attempt is going to appear as a nerf. Lots of other things need 'nerfing', pistol range, stealth, para and all the other things that have an unbalanced affect on PvP.
Clearly I am wasting my time though, you obviously have no intention to move from your current desire to keep monks/ppus as they are and unwilling to think of realistic means to solve their problems.
Fluffy']Yes. becuse That puts PPu's on the same field as everyone else. And TBH ppu's shouldnt die. Neither Should someone they are supporting if they can land EVERY single Heal and Shelter. Same with whoever is attacking them... You can Easily Kill an APu PPU team with a PPU tank team If your tank has equally good aim. Granted APU/ PPU teams are the 2 strongest Chars together. But that is becuase they are designed for that. They Compliment Eachothers Strenghts and Weaknes's (SP?)
Do you have NO comprehension of balance whatso ever?
most PEs can beat lone apus, maybe we should nerf PEs
Well d'uh? Wyatt + db = dead apu.
wow... lot of dumb things said here from everyone...
APU vs PE is actually pretty well balanced, except for the very high tech slasher/heallight PE with lots of drugs. The APU already doesn't have to aim, and right now he has a big advantage with the reloading/swapping changes. The problem is theres just not very many good APUs because many people switch to them from another class because they don't want to aim or want to run around with a PPU and be unkillable. But aside from the reloading, if a PE beats your APU; he's better then you.
It really doesn't matter if the PPU is killable or not (even with this heal change I'd say they could keep the same holy heal, self cast only) but right now he makes those he supports the same way. The point is not that a APU/PPU vs TANK/PPU is balanced, its that PPU/ANYONE is balanced vs ANYONE/ANYONE.
That is balance. It is NOT balanced now. You can say you like unbalanced, but not that it IS BALANCED.
Yes with this heal change you won't be able to out heal everyone. You might even lose a fight. Fights MIGHT even be determined by who is better.. If OP fight situations need HH then thats the next thing that needs to be changed, same with mobs that need it. Balance is more important then either of those issues.
I don't want PPUs removed, they do have a place in the game. The way they are now though; the game would be A LOT better without them at all. Thats why they need to be fixed. Its a fact. Case closed.
Dribble Joy
11-12-05, 22:41
Exactly, class should be completely irrelevant to PvP viability. Solo or team.
PEs are just normal citizens on drugs, spies are weak little people who can stealth, tanks are the big fat people who can take dmg, monks are the guys who are weak on their own but a vital part of a team. I don't see how this doesn't match what we have now. (altho having said that, remove para)
Oh! So monks are SUPPOSED to be the only class important to pvp!
That is a load of crap ^^
remove holy heal and/or give diminished returns on foreign cast heals like we have on shelt/def.
As long as the APU is the only one that can debuff, the apu will be a requirment
while the other classes can be a mix of whatever.
Blessed heal is far too strong for a combat class, and therefore too strong for a supported combat char.
So the point of being a pure or having a psi 3 on you would be... what?
Do you realise how totally selfish that sounds.
RP is the reasons behind a story, events or other thigns. It should never in any way determine PvP viability.
People play what ever is most powerful, they don't care what it is, be it as tanks back ages ago and the old hybrids. You clearly don't seem to understand what the heal rate of a holy or blessed heal does to a team.
Given the complete and utter dominance and necessity of the PPU, any realisic balance attempt is going to appear as a nerf. Lots of other things need 'nerfing', pistol range, stealth, para and all the other things that have an unbalanced affect on PvP.
Clearly I am wasting my time though, you obviously have no intention to move from your current desire to keep monks/ppus as they are and unwilling to think of realistic means to solve their problems.
Do you have NO comprehension of balance whatso ever?
Blessed heal on a combat character normaly means hes not going to hurt you at all and if you noob heal him he will die. But that has changed with the stupid reload times making it impossible to kill a blessed hybrid however the APU hybrids still scare me more than the stupid I am heal everything 1337 blessed noobie hybrids...
Agree on all but the monk armour, that would be too much of a nerf.
i like all apart from giving guards damage. why not remove guards para and still keep there nib damage... currently on my hyb i can out heal about 4 guards 4 copbots fiering constantly at me. if one runner shot at the same time id be totaly nuked.
why not make guards just a suport feature so that when sumbody raids ur city they dont have to zone hore. guards are just another helping hand to defend the city (btw DRE guards do hurt like hell. 2 of them shooting can drop my hyb in a few shots... hows anybody suposed to raid a city with them running around)
(edit) btw i have a more prefered idea... remove forien casts on all heals and shelteres and deflectors and make them have to be group cast only.... lets see them healing there lil nip apu if i lom to meele and stand rite next to him ^_^
Sgt. Pepper
12-12-05, 05:23
2)Tweak the monk armour, currently it kicks any other armours ass.
the only point i could agree with.
psibased armor should be removed.
Hmm .. doesnt go far enough imo.
- Holy Heal, Shelter & Deflector == no foreign cast
- slightly weaken holy group heal
- slightly boost holy heal sanct.
- Remove all para weapons, apart from melee
- boost all lvl3 resist and combat buffs a bit
- slightly increase rezz speed
This should increase a demand for proper teamplay as the strongest foreign heal has a shorter range and does heal enemies as well if you're in the midst of the fight. Teams would have to pull out and stick together for a few secs to heal up... less PPU's per DD's required compared to have 1 PPU down each DD's tail.
The boost of the buffs = longtime effects that dont require 1 PPU babysitting a dmg-dealer 24/7, again - a measure to allow 1 ppu support a group of 5 as effective as 2 PPU's would. Same counts for the Rez.
The stronger sactum is pretty much useless in PvP ..but will compensate for the missing Holy Heal/SD in PvE - PvE will become harder and a bit more challanging ... only very few locations would require a rebalance of the mobs.
All of the above should be easy to apply for KK - wont ever happen to see anything done about PPUs tho :p
Maybe Carb has forgotten about them funny threads where he and Callash were s'posed to FIX IT. ;)
Hmm .. doesnt go far enough imo.
- Holy Heal, Shelter & Deflector == no foreign cast
- slightly weaken holy group heal
- slightly boost holy heal sanct.
- Remove all para weapons, apart from melee
- boost all lvl3 resist and combat buffs a bit
- slightly increase rezz speed
This should increase a demand for proper teamplay as the strongest foreign heal has a shorter range and does heal enemies as well if you're in the midst of the fight. Teams would have to pull out and stick together for a few secs to heal up... less PPU's per DD's required compared to have 1 PPU down each DD's tail.
The boost of the buffs = longtime effects that dont require 1 PPU babysitting a dmg-dealer 24/7, again - a measure to allow 1 ppu support a group of 5 as effective as 2 PPU's would. Same counts for the Rez.
The stronger sactum is pretty much useless in PvP ..but will compensate for the missing Holy Heal/SD in PvE - PvE will become harder and a bit more challanging ... only very few locations would require a rebalance of the mobs.
All of the above should be easy to apply for KK - wont ever happen to see anything done about PPUs tho :p
Maybe Carb has forgotten about them funny threads where he and Callash were s'posed to FIX IT. ;)
I like this the best, the idea of making all heals a tl 3 heal but just lasting longer sucks imo, how does it make it take skill? it just nerfs ppus into uselessness might as well just recast the heal.
What they need to do is, nerf foregn cast heal the same way they do shelter and deflector, so your heal hits half as hard.
Then fix reload times.
Then change para into anti stealth (suggested above)
Then bam, balanced.
Asurmen Spec Op
12-12-05, 06:14
I like my idea for para.
I like my idea for para.
I like my idea for fixing heals
Then fix reload times.
Yes, but no!
The longer reload times sure are very, very weird now... but we'll manage to get used to it. The fix I'd like to see in this regard would be a close look at all modified arms pre-evol and compare their dmg/time ratio with the current ratio. Only where necessary I'd like to see the mag-sizes slightly upped to make sure the dmg/time ratio is balanced the way it was before evol (the dm/time will be generally lower tho' wich isnt a problem to me - the fast/massive dmg output is one of the reasons no-one wants to PvP without PPUs, toning it down is good!).
so first thing, make sure the balance inbetween the firearms is restored AND THEN cut the APU modules frequency accordingly.
Longer reloads take away a bit of the fast pace we're used to ...but it adds to the complexity and tactics of PvP - thus I like it ...in fact, this is the perfect timing to spend 2-3 weeks on thoroughly looking at the balancing and monk issue, as balance was largely affected / altered by the new variety of reload times.
Yes, but no!
The longer reload times sure are very, very weird now... but we'll manage to get used to it. The fix I'd like to see in this regard would be a close look at all modified arms pre-evol and compare their dmg/time ratio with the current ratio. Only where necessary I'd like to see the mag-sizes slightly upped to make sure the dmg/time ratio is balanced the way it was before evol (the dm/time will be generally lower tho' wich isnt a problem to me - the fast/massive dmg output is one of the reasons no-one wants to PvP without PPUs, toning it down is good!).
so first thing, make sure the balance inbetween the firearms is restored AND THEN cut the APU modules frequency accordingly.
Longer reloads take away a bit of the fast pace we're used to ...but it adds to the complexity and tactics of PvP - thus I like it ...in fact, this is the perfect timing to spend 2-3 weeks on thoroughly looking at the balancing and monk issue, as balance was largely affected / altered by the new variety of reload times.
actualy I like the stratigic ness of the new reload times, what they should do is make all clips bigger by like a factor fo 2 or 3 (figure out whats balanced)
Asurmen Spec Op
12-12-05, 07:14
They need to be speed up a bit, but not to pre- 2.1
However, as balance stam boosters should have a LONGER effect that STOPS ALL CASTING OF ANY KIND.
weve got it
You get it
scarshapedstar
12-12-05, 07:26
the only point i could agree with.
psibased armor should be removed.
Or at least made weaker than strength-based armor, ffs. Shouldn't there be at least one teensy tiny drawback to being a monk?
Bugs Gunny
12-12-05, 08:46
an apu that antibuffs the pe will probably win if he moves well.
everyone getting only tl3 heals would make opfights VERY short indeed.
This game doesn't need more than a blessed ppu if they nerf the 100/100 and higher mobs.
Dargeshaad
12-12-05, 09:35
For about 2½ year people has been crying for a nerf of the PPUs....whatever makes you think they'll begin listening now?
Only one employee had the guts to try and change the PPUs, that was Callash and he got the boot
Right now there's two options....either live with it or leave. I've chosen the latter when my free period expires
Only one employee had the guts to try and change the PPUs, that was Callash and he got the boot
..bs tbh :rolleyes:
Because its that time of year!
1)reduce the rate of Holy/blessed/tl10 heal to the same heal per tick as TL3, but make them longer(I think that one is DJs)
2)Tweak the monk armour, currently it kicks any other armours ass.
3)Remove TSS(hold that though :) )
4)Holy buffs override nib buffs(who needs em with no god heal)
5) Remove paras effects entirely but make it act like a TSS right ontop the person untill it wears.
5.1) GIVE GUARDS REAL FUCKING DMG NOW
lol can always count on someone brainlessly saying nerf ppus :P
ok lets look at the reality.
1)To begin with many would be totally impossible if holy heal was reduced to tl 3 heal.
2)healing a tank with a tl3 heal is a joke... whats the point (oh also capping tank con would also be alot harder)
3) TSS is soooo overpowerd? not really is it stealth is not that prominent in op wars.... and at the end of the day that is the general pvp we refer to where ppus are present.
4) holy buffs should override nib buffs anyways
5) mmm para is still a hot topic but i think that you will find alot of the good ppus will not really use para at all in op wars... rather they will spend more time focusing on keeping there team alive or there designated apu
6) if these nerfs were actual apus wud drop like erm... dominos? in op wars.... holy heal is such a saving grace
7) Monks are supposed to be the most powerful class... read the story of neocron... dont like it play somthing else.
8) change this many ppus will dissapear, which is perhaps what you want however its not really that good for the game is it? i mean ppus help to level, do missions.... aswell as be a pain in pvp :P
9) remove tss and another ppu rare has gone which leaves the only viable ppu rare as holy para...... remove para aswell oh... now ppus have no rares worth using.... think people might complain no?
10) the gaurds have real damage... was in the wastelands and saw a doy gaurd hit a 45/45 mob for 1600+1600 in 1 hit.... nothing else in the game can hit that hard. + parashock aswel
asurman i think u need to spend alot more time thinking before u post somthing like this. Everyone rants until they actually think of the implications and the amount of things in game that actually would have to be changed to nerf ppus.... and then the loss of so many ppus to the community would be distressing to say the least. dont tell me u have never needed a ppu to go to regants... choas cave.... shaman.... judgement day etc
apus are the way they supposed to be tbh tons of damage but weak as hell
sadly the ppus make em the best op war class cuz apu + ppu buffs and heal > anyone else something needs to be done about the ppus ( nerf para)
Bugs Gunny
12-12-05, 11:07
Wow Lore, never thought you'd be a suporter of a ppu fix.
And as for
8) Sure some ppus will quit, but how many people do you think allready quit the game because of the apu-ppu godcombo?
Wow Lore, never thought you'd be a suporter of a ppu fix.
And as for
8) Sure some ppus will quit, but how many people do you think allready quit the game because of the apu-ppu godcombo?
i know fetish are the anti monk clan.... that erm dont succeed so well but ehem
yes well there is always going to be a definitive best combo and unfortuantly for pes, spys and tanks then its the apu/ppu combo, monks are suppost to be the most powerful and everyone has the opportunity to play a monk.
and few people will quit cos of the combo mate ur dreaming its been the best for 2 and a half years and ppus have recived several nerfs already over this time.
pes and spys are far stronger than apus in a 1 on 1 situation really.... with stealth and self shelter = resists they can spank an apu or tank. The real victims in all of this are tanks beacuse they have to move slowly with weapons that just got nerfed due to longer reload times, and they have no self shelter. Tanks have no real specialisation apart from being damn hard to kill in op wars when they are buffed.... at least pes and spys are great solo pvp artists
Bugs Gunny
12-12-05, 11:41
Where does it say that monks are supposed to be the most powerfull class?
(and don't gimme that BS about the story where they make a guy explode in mid air)
Agreed, tanks have it very rough now, although a good tank will still be able to drop a good pe or spy.
With the reload right now tanks are pretty much out of the opscene too now.
Funny, how a post apoc SCIFI game, with a world based on technology, has nothing but wizards doing the wars.....
What this game needs is a complete overhaul of the ppu and then a reballancing of all classes and highlevel mobs.
Will KK do something about it? HELL NO..... The minute their pop drops below 50 at peak they'll start thinking about it.
mmm a good tank can drop anybody if
A. hes not para'd
B. they dont stealth (urgh.... URGH pe's healing by the time u shoot again especialy if they stealth the moment u finish reloading. then by the time they come out of stealth its like a start from the begining again. and u cant heal fast enough >_<)
C. he takes out there legs ^_^
Bugs Gunny
12-12-05, 12:08
A pe that stealths away healing is crazy.
It's like a marker saying "here i am, kill me".
If you go in first person view it's not hard at all to track them, even without a heal on them.
A pe that stealths away healing is crazy.
It's like a marker saying "here i am, kill me".
If you go in first person view it's not hard at all to track them, even without a heal on them.
depends where ur fighting realy... some places its so simple to track some places its totaly imposible. to many places to hide. some peoples only use stealth to heal up. when u cant hit them for max damage. if there legs are broke however yes stealthing would be stupid ^_^
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?t=123392&highlight=balance+ppu
tbh
A pe that stealths away healing is crazy.
It's like a marker saying "here i am, kill me".
If you go in first person view it's not hard at all to track them, even without a heal on them.
Verse a ppu, yes.
In another 1 on 1, or 1 on 2 situtation (however rare they are), the pe gets a free 100 hp at no cost, unbroken legs and whatever other arguments I brought up before.
Not to mention you can simply clip around an object (intentionally or unintentionally) and put up another heal and stealth again.
edit: also if say, if your fighting a tank, you can crouch in one spot and change the free 100hp into a free 200hp.
I don't like the read of the " just change all heals to tl3 level but make the duration longer"-statements
I agree that something has to be done. It can not be that a ppu can outheal 2 capped tanks.
What I suggest is the following.:
Balance the holy capped heal of the ppu in such a way that a capped tank can ALMOST kill the ppu (in case that the tank is continuously shooting the monk aka one monk slip up = a dead monk)
Also if 2 tanks go for one monk you are certain to be left with a dead monk (unless the monk has enough friends to help him out).
The duration can then be tweaked to last a bit longer as seem fit for balancing.
I'm not saying in any way that it has to be like that nor that it is or isn't possible. It's just my opinion on how to approach the problem (just from a different angle)
-SL33PY
Shenyu Reza
12-12-05, 16:30
<3 :) :) :)
Dribble Joy
12-12-05, 17:38
I don't like the read of the " just change all heals to tl3 level but make the duration longer"-statements
I agree that something has to be done. It can not be that a ppu can outheal 2 capped tanks.
What I suggest is the following.:
Balance the holy capped heal of the ppu in such a way that a capped tank can ALMOST kill the ppu (in case that the tank is continuously shooting the monk aka one monk slip up = a dead monk)
Also if 2 tanks go for one monk you are certain to be left with a dead monk (unless the monk has enough friends to help him out).
The duration can then be tweaked to last a bit longer as seem fit for balancing.
I'm not saying in any way that it has to be like that nor that it is or isn't possible. It's just my opinion on how to approach the problem (just from a different angle)
-SL33PY
You cna't focus on tanks, apus or any other single class when considering PPU balance. PPUs essentially give the fighters under their command PPU heal abilities. The tl10 heal is too strong for solo, yet some reason it's fine for a PPU assisted fighter to have a holy heal....
PPUs should amplify a fighters abilities, and they do, but at present too much and in the wrong way.
Unifying the heal rates and reworking/fixing the existing PPU abilities - essentially removing heals from the PU equation - would lead to a much more balanced PvP scene, where you have to look after yourself as much as you would elsewhere, not just plug away in the safe knowledge you have a holy heal running. Your natural defence and offencive powers would be increased.
scarshapedstar
12-12-05, 18:10
I dunno, I mean in most games nobody thinks it's odd that the team with the healer wins. Hell, people call you a nub for trying to pvp without a healer. You are pretty much guaranteed a loss. Support classes, when you get right down to it, should add more to a group than anyone else, because they (****in theory****) can't do much on their own. If their contribution is precisely equal that of any other class, there's really not much reason to play one, unless you're a masochist. A lot of people say "tank and PPU is better than tank and PE, PPUs are imba, QED" but that just seems wrong. I mean, the very core reason for the existence of support classes is that the whole SHOULD be greater than the sum of the parts.
I guess the main problem is that healers, in general, are balanced for large scale fighting. 1v1 the healer always wins, in every game ever made, at least in the sense that hardly anyone can kill him alone. You can dicker around with who he can and can't outheal, but I have no problem with this situation since if anyone can run up and kick your ass then the game just isn't much fun for a PPU. (Hybrids, as we all know, are a very different story and require balancing of their own; they should NOT win every fight by default.) And 2v2, 3v3 even, the team with the healer should win. But once you get to around 10v10 it's not hard to just take them down, and the team with the healer shouldn't automatically prevail. But NC's reality is that most fights involve only a handful of people. :(
Of course PPUs have incredibly strong buffs and their team has a significant advantage even if they don't cast a single heal... IMO if you really want to "fix" PPUs you should weaken buffs considerably and make healing stronger (and possibly decrease their range, I don't really know much about healing range TBH). When you look at the practical increase in HP, defensive buffs are much stronger than heals and take less effort. If they are weakened significantly and heals made stronger, in order to have the same usefulness the monk has to be out there in the fray casting heals more often, and it takes a lot more skill to be a good healer when you really have to make decisions about who to heal. And since his self-buffs aren't as strong, he's a MUCH more vulnerable target. (Of course if monks get one shotted too much you could only nerf foreign cast buffs and leave self cast the way they are, since Antibuff can already balance them.)
I dunno, I mean in most games nobody thinks it's odd that the team with the healer wins. Hell, people call you a nub for trying to pvp without a healer. You are pretty much guaranteed a loss. Support classes, when you get right down to it, should add more to a group than anyone else, because they (****in theory****) can't do much on their own. If their contribution is precisely equal that of any other class, there's really not much reason to play one, unless you're a masochist. A lot of people say "tank and PPU is better than tank and PE, PPUs are imba, QED" but that just seems wrong. I mean, the very core reason for the existence of support classes is that the whole SHOULD be greater than the sum of the parts.
I guess the main problem is that healers, in general, are balanced for large scale fighting. 1v1 the healer always wins, in every game ever made, at least in the sense that hardly anyone can kill him alone. You can dicker around with who he can and can't outheal, but I have no problem with this situation since if anyone can run up and kick your ass then the game just isn't much fun for a PPU. (Hybrids, as we all know, are a very different story and require balancing of their own; they should NOT win every fight by default.) And 2v2, 3v3 even, the team with the healer should win. But once you get to around 10v10 it's not hard to just take them down, and the team with the healer shouldn't automatically prevail. But NC's reality is that most fights involve only a handful of people. :(
Of course PPUs have incredibly strong buffs and their team has a significant advantage even if they don't cast a single heal... IMO if you really want to "fix" PPUs you should weaken buffs considerably and make healing stronger (and possibly decrease their range, I don't really know much about healing range TBH). When you look at the practical increase in HP, defensive buffs are much stronger than heals and take less effort. If they are weakened significantly and heals made stronger, in order to have the same usefulness the monk has to be out there in the fray casting heals more often, and it takes a lot more skill to be a good healer when you really have to make decisions about who to heal. And since his self-buffs aren't as strong, he's a MUCH more vulnerable target. (Of course if monks get one shotted too much you could only nerf foreign cast buffs and leave self cast the way they are, since Antibuff can already balance them.)
thank you, you win
Dribble Joy
12-12-05, 21:54
If their contribution is precisely equal that of any other class, there's really not much reason to play one, unless you're a masochist.
People should be allowed tomplay the class that they want and/or suits them best. As soon as you make a class a decicive part of PvP then people will play it because the have to.
Would you see as many PPUs as APUs/PEs/Tanks/Spies if PPUs were truely an equal option as one of the other classes? Probably not, but that's because of the nature of this game and the people who play it. Would that not also reflect the nature of the setting? A harsh world where you have to fight to survive? Few people would choose the path of a pure healer.
A lot of people say "tank and PPU is better than tank and PE, PPUs are imba, QED" but that just seems wrong. I mean, the very core reason for the existence of support classes is that the whole SHOULD be greater than the sum of the parts.
Again, as soon as you create a class that is more than itself when included with other players you create a necessity for it's inclusion in PvP.
I guess the main problem is that healers, in general, are balanced for large scale fighting. 1v1 the healer always wins, in every game ever made, at least in the sense that hardly anyone can kill him alone. You can dicker around with who he can and can't outheal, but I have no problem with this situation since if anyone can run up and kick your ass then the game just isn't much fun for a PPU.
Well didums, PPU self defence can allways be kept as it is now if you really want to stay unkillable.
[quoet](Hybrids, as we all know, are a very different story and require balancing of their own; they should NOT win every fight by default.) And 2v2, 3v3 even, the team with the healer should win.[/quote]
Why?
But once you get to around 10v10 it's not hard to just take them down, and the team with the healer shouldn't automatically prevail. But NC's reality is that most fights involve only a handful of people. :(
Why should the number of fighters have any impact on the out come of a fight?
IMO if you really want to "fix" PPUs you should weaken buffs considerably and make healing stronger (and possibly decrease their range, I don't really know much about healing range TBH). When you look at the practical increase in HP, defensive buffs are much stronger than heals and take less effort. If they are weakened significantly and heals made stronger, in order to have the same usefulness the monk has to be out there in the fray casting heals more often, and it takes a lot more skill to be a good healer when you really have to make decisions about who to heal. And since his self-buffs aren't as strong, he's a MUCH more vulnerable target. (Of course if monks get one shotted too much you could only nerf foreign cast buffs and leave self cast the way they are, since Antibuff can already balance them.)
Other way round, the buffs and shields add little in defence compared to the way heals affect PvP. An extra 40 hp is nothing if the heal is adding a similar amount or more each second. Increas eheals and you make the problem worse.
PPUs are a support class, that does not automatically mean a healer class, ignore anything about support classes anywhere else, this is NC, with a different set of rules.
Heals from a PPU confer PPU healing to fighting classes (duh), this does not lead to a balanced fighting system. PPUs as a support class should amplify a fighter's current abilities without fundamentally changing the PvP system.
Lvl 3 buffs, shields (however you do them, as long as they affect all classes equally, I'd prefer a %-hp addition) and DB. Beyond that a PPU starts to seriously fuck things up and they become a necessity for PvP, which is bad thing.
anyone else noticed that KK haven't even attempted to change gameplay since PEs got stealth again? and even before that there were hardly any changes.
In terms of gameplay, monks are currently the worst aspect of it. There is absolutely no fun in playing an apu who can die in 2 seconds or fighting an apu who will kill you in 2 seconds. As for the PPU, can anyone else think of a decent action team game where one character completely changes the balance of fights? Things like that are usually bugs, or get changed in the first patch after the game is released. Ideally monks would be like hybrids are now (maybe with some slight tweaking). You would have the PPUs who would become the current blessed hybrids, and APUs would have the spells that they have now, except easier to cap yet less dmg making it un-viable to become a pure APU.
nobody2004
12-12-05, 23:54
Change the way the world is (not) "balanced" today and you'll end up with an other unbalanced world, where an other category will rule.
Why not apply what's used in strategy games, where a given category A wins over category B, but looses against category C.
So you could have something like Spy owns APU which in turn owns tank, ...
And the whole thing loops of course:
Spy -> APU -> Tank -> PE -> Spy
(or any order thereof)
Now the game should still be balanced as well as possible, but this way it's harder for a given category to rule the world, even if slightly overpowered, because whatever that category is, it's allways "weak" to an other one.
Just my 2 cts ...
Change the way the world is (not) "balanced" today and you'll end up with an other unbalanced world, where an other category will rule.
Why not apply what's used in strategy games, where a given category A wins over category B, but looses against category C.
So you could have something like Spy owns APU which in turn owns tank, ...
And the whole thing loops of course:
Spy -> APU -> Tank -> PE -> Spy
(or any order thereof)
Now the game should still be balanced as well as possible, but this way it's harder for a given category to rule the world, even if slightly overpowered, because whatever that category is, it's allways "weak" to an other one.
Just my 2 cts ...
I hate the stone paper scissors thing. Imagine if we had that, as soon as you
see a class you can't beat people would just gr out or run off.
nobody2004
13-12-05, 00:00
I hate the stone paper scissors thing. Imagine if we had that, as soon as you
see a class you can't beat people would just gr out or run off.
Nothing to do with stone, paper, scissor, which is used in "turn based games".
And no reason to run off, because the fight outcome will depend on setup and gameplay.
Yet no category would rule.
nobody2004
13-12-05, 00:06
Forgot to mention, because it was obvious (to me :p).
The advantage one category has over an other one should be small.
As small as possible actually.
If there's NO advantage at all, you play a perfectly balanced game (which we know is not possible).
If only ONE category benefits from that advantage, you play NC.
I hate the stone paper scissors thing. Imagine if we had that, as soon as you
see a class you can't beat people would just gr out or run off. more like stratego!!!!!!!1111111111
The spies are the spy who can kill the 5 star person (monks), tanks are 4 star, PEs are 3 star but can kill spies, and droners are the bombs :p
Wouldn't mind something like that
Dribble Joy
13-12-05, 02:47
Reduce a balance imperfection sufficiantly and it will dissapear in the eyes of the players, as different classes and playstyles then preside over the choice they make, not which class is outstanding as the most powerful.
Clearly this is a complex manner and aspects of all classes need changing, unified heal rate will solve the main issue, but the others remaining will become obvious pretty soon.
Even if PEs, Spies, tanks and APUs are balanced in both solo and team, APUs and tanks will still remain the classes of choice on the larger scale fight, simply because they provide the highest level of offence. I don't mind, things would still be balanced overall.
Whitestuff
13-12-05, 03:38
As far as I have seen in game, all the suggestions you are proposing would DESTROY hunting. Completely. Forget what it would do to PvP, hunting and leveling would be near impossible in high level areas. The whole idea of a PPU on a hunting team is to increase the rate of leveling, not say "Hey, that guy is a PPU, try to find a DMG dealer for the last team spot we all have our TL3's..."
What needs to be done is two sets of rules need to be implemented for PvP and PvM. It is the ONLY WAY to make everyone happy. You don't want para in PvP? Fine, make it work WELL in PvM. You don't want uber shields in PvP? Fine, redice the % on PvP DMG and leave the PvM % where it is. Heals are fine IMHO if you change the other varibles (not with sledgehammer tactics either). If you change the heal, it can't be by too much b/c as I said, hunting becomes near impossible. If you are PPUing a group in a poison cave or the graves, you need the massive ticks of a holy heal to be running while you anti-poison everyone in the group (thx to the removal of the sanctum, which BTW, could be fixed by having it remove ONE stack of poison per 2 second tick rather than 2, but nah, let's just remove it....). We all need to cool down a bit, forget that you got owned by a PPU team and think about how to fix this problem without fucking everyone up and from the suggestions I have seen and the gameplay during my 14 free days on my PPU, the 2 sets of rules idea is the best I can come up with. I'll post specifically what I think these rules should be when I get some time.
The KK idea for making heals self cast only would remove the hour long OP fights I used to love. OP fights would take 3 seconds, whoever has the most ppl wins and it ceases to be a question of who can organize their team the best, including PPU's. Again, another sledge hammer technique for ruining a class.
My PPU gets killed in PvP on and off, I haven't noticed me being "the invincible PPU class", but then again, I am no where near cap. Last time I checked, I had 76 PSI and it took 4 ppl with piercing weaps and para to kill me. Which is why I agree something needs to be done. But what many of you are suggesting slam PPU's in the face with heavy sledgehammers.
Perhaps, the Holy heal needs to be decreased in effectiveness to what my Holy Heal does now, with it hovering around 400% attack. I heal somewhere between 25-30 health per tick and my team still gets ganked by mobs sometimes. In PvP, if I'm getting hit, I have to focus on healing myself first, which give the gankers time to kill my team and then they team up on me because my heal rate is low enough that I can't just throw one on myself, quit worrying about it, and heal my team up at the same time. This may be a better solution to that problem.
Anyway, I don't have time to go into it now. I'll play some more and post what I think.
scarshapedstar
13-12-05, 03:59
As for the PPU, can anyone else think of a decent action team game where one character completely changes the balance of fights?
In WoW, if one side in a BG has no healers at all, they're going to go down like the Hindenberg. Nobody sees a problem with that; everyone knows the value of support classes. If the enemy doesn't have to worry about their targets being healed, they might as well be playing whack-a-mole because all they have to do is focus on random people. Don't see why NC should be so different. You wouldn't take on a 120/120 as a tank with no PPU, don't see why you'd expect to win against actual players.
I've yet to really hear what changed so much about PPUs since NC1. I don't see too many new abilities; seems like all that's changed is players use them more in pvp, which is not grounds for a nerf. Nobody complained about them in NC1, except for the PPUs themselves. Maybe it's because they didn't get PA, I don't know.
Asurmen Spec Op
13-12-05, 04:03
In WoW, if one side in a BG has no healers at all, they're going to go down like the Hindenberg. Nobody sees a problem with that; everyone knows the value of support classes. Don't see why NC should be so different. You wouldn't take on a 120/120 as a tank with no PPU.
I've yet to really hear what changed so much about PPUs since NC1. I don't see too many new abilities; seems like all that's changed is players use them more in pvp, which is not grounds for a nerf. Nobody complained about them in NC1, except for the PPUs themselves. Maybe it's because they didn't get PA, I don't know.
Because its a skill based game
scarshapedstar
13-12-05, 04:06
Because its a skill based game
My suggestion focused on making healing more skill based. NC buffs are strangely strong, a fully buffed character is several times stronger compared to maybe 10-20% stronger in most other games.
This means all you really have to do is keep everyone buffed and throw a few heals. It should be, keep everyone healed and throw a few buffs. Hence the monk has to spend a lot more time in the open, and whether his teammates die depends not upon if he asked for buffs sometime in the last couple minutes but on whether the monk gets there to heal in time. But as others have noted, this would require a lot of pve rebalancing.
I've yet to really hear what changed so much about PPUs since NC1. I don't see too many new abilities; seems like all that's changed is players use them more in pvp, which is not grounds for a nerf. Nobody complained about them in NC1, except for the PPUs themselves. Maybe it's because they didn't get PA, I don't know.
Your right, nothing really has changed from nc1 concerning PPUs, besides the fact that there alot more of them. People still complained about Parashock and PPUs in Neocron 1, but not as much because there weren't as many around. It doesn't matter if 1 person uses them, all the whole server does, they still unbalance PvP and still will do until KK change them.
My suggestion focused on making healing more skill based. NC buffs are strangely strong, a fully buffed character is several times stronger compared to maybe 10-20% stronger in most other games.
This means all you really have to do is keep everyone buffed and throw a few heals. It should be, keep everyone healed and throw a few buffs. Hence the monk has to spend a lot more time in the open, and whether his teammates die depends not upon if he asked for buffs sometime in the last couple minutes but on whether the monk gets there to heal in time. But as others have noted, this would require a lot of pve rebalancing.
yes, kk please hire this guy
As far as I have seen in game, all the suggestions you are proposing would DESTROY hunting. Completely. Forget what it would do to PvP, hunting and leveling would be near impossible in high level areas. The whole idea of a PPU on a hunting team is to increase the rate of leveling, not say "Hey, that guy is a PPU, try to find a DMG dealer for the last team spot we all have our TL3's..."
What needs to be done is two sets of rules need to be implemented for PvP and PvM. It is the ONLY WAY to make everyone happy. You don't want para in PvP? Fine, make it work WELL in PvM. You don't want uber shields in PvP? Fine, redice the % on PvP DMG and leave the PvM % where it is. Heals are fine IMHO if you change the other varibles (not with sledgehammer tactics either). If you change the heal, it can't be by too much b/c as I said, hunting becomes near impossible. If you are PPUing a group in a poison cave or the graves, you need the massive ticks of a holy heal to be running while you anti-poison everyone in the group (thx to the removal of the sanctum, which BTW, could be fixed by having it remove ONE stack of poison per 2 second tick rather than 2, but nah, let's just remove it....). We all need to cool down a bit, forget that you got owned by a PPU team and think about how to fix this problem without fucking everyone up and from the suggestions I have seen and the gameplay during my 14 free days on my PPU, the 2 sets of rules idea is the best I can come up with. I'll post specifically what I think these rules should be when I get some time.
The KK idea for making heals self cast only would remove the hour long OP fights I used to love. OP fights would take 3 seconds, whoever has the most ppl wins and it ceases to be a question of who can organize their team the best, including PPU's. Again, another sledge hammer technique for ruining a class.
My PPU gets killed in PvP on and off, I haven't noticed me being "the invincible PPU class", but then again, I am no where near cap. Last time I checked, I had 76 PSI and it took 4 ppl with piercing weaps and para to kill me. Which is why I agree something needs to be done. But what many of you are suggesting slam PPU's in the face with heavy sledgehammers.
Perhaps, the Holy heal needs to be decreased in effectiveness to what my Holy Heal does now, with it hovering around 400% attack. I heal somewhere between 25-30 health per tick and my team still gets ganked by mobs sometimes. In PvP, if I'm getting hit, I have to focus on healing myself first, which give the gankers time to kill my team and then they team up on me because my heal rate is low enough that I can't just throw one on myself, quit worrying about it, and heal my team up at the same time. This may be a better solution to that problem.
Anyway, I don't have time to go into it now. I'll play some more and post what I think.
this guy too
Well.... healers are important in wow but everything has multiple counters that can be used. I realy liked that part.
Not quite the same in neocron.
Ive..... mostly given up on trying to find a ppu fix. It would just fix one problem and create another while completely changing what neocron has been for years. I dont know if any fix can actualy be put in now.
scarshapedstar
13-12-05, 08:16
Maybe make antibuff much more accessible? This would naturally be a pvp-only solution (huge plus) and could possibly be quite easy to implement. I actually don't know much about this spell, never having played a monk, it seems uber but nobody ever mentions it in these "nerf PPU" threads so there must be some problem with it. I'm guessing it's the psi cost... yeah, it costs way more to break a buff than to cast it?! That should definitely be changed. I can understand at least an argument for antibuff being so expensive, because it can break up to 3 buffs at once, but the individual spells ie anti deflector, anti shield, anti heal are ludicrously expensive. Shouldn't cost 4 times as much to remove a buff as it costs to cast it, or even twice as much. Maybe 150% tops. So antiheal etc should cost 80 or 90 psi. Not quite sure what should be done about antibuff, though... maybe cut its psi cost to 160-180, twice the cost of the individual spells.
Dargeshaad
13-12-05, 08:46
I've yet to really hear what changed so much about PPUs since NC1. I don't see too many new abilities; seems like all that's changed is players use them more in pvp, which is not grounds for a nerf. Nobody complained about them in NC1, except for the PPUs themselves. Maybe it's because they didn't get PA, I don't know.
Are you kidding me or just plain retarded? People complained about PPUs for over 2 years ago, just look at the last pages of this forum and you'll see
scarshapedstar
13-12-05, 09:16
Are you kidding me or just plain retarded? People complained about PPUs for over 2 years ago, just look at the last pages of this forum and you'll see
Jesus christ, okay, let me change "nobody" to "hardly anyone" to account for forum posts in 2003, whatever makes you happy. I don't remember seeing "omg you pussies can't fight without a PPU" spammed across all channels 24/7 in NC1, and people seem to agree that there are more PPUs now. Maybe they're all retarded too.
Dargeshaad
13-12-05, 09:34
Jesus christ, okay, let me change "nobody" to "hardly anyone" to account for forum posts in 2003, whatever makes you happy. I don't remember seeing "omg you pussies can't fight without a PPU" spammed across all channels 24/7 in NC1, and people seem to agree that there are more PPUs now. Maybe they're all retarded too.
Or maybe you just didn't play the same game, lots of people complained about PPUs both ingame and on the forums. Only thing that has changed is that NCs population has decreased dramatically and thus the people complaining about PPUs has an easier time getting noticed
I have said this a thousand times already, but rince and repeat they say.
In traiditional RPG be it pen and paper or be it computer RPG, the whole system is based on few simple ratios, ratios Gary Gygax and his colleagues have used to produce RPG games since the beginning.
"What are these ratios" I hear questions from the back. Well, it's pure math, and when something doesn't add, it is off, it doesn't follow the rule of balanced ratio, which then becomes, unbalanced.
Ratio, take a ratio of offence:defence, if the ratio looks like this 1:1 it is not much of a balance if we introduce another ratio of 0:1, we should use ratios like 5:1, 2:3 and so on, if we make a ratio of 1:1 it could easily translate to a ratio of 5:5 when introduced to the world.
"What on earth do you mean" asks the blond haired boy. Well sonny, it means that we offratios here in Neocron, if we use the formula of 5, the 5 being the highest and 1 being the lowest. A tank is around 3:2 APU monk is 5:0 PPU is 0:5 and so on. If we use a tru RPG math, it should be something like this, Tank 1:4 (high defence low offence) and monk should only have one option of "hybrid" where it would be 4:1 (high offence and low defence.)
But here we go off. We break the mathematical pattern and introduce Tank that has both high defence and high offence. And monk that has options to rival and top the Tank either in defence or in offence.
The concept of support and most venerable offence options on single class doesn't work. If we are to fix this we would have to break the Monk from the pattern and introduce it as a variable, an outside factor to pattern of ratios that are Tank, Pe and Spy respectively.
Maybe a ratio of
Tank 1:4
Pe 3:2 or 2:3 (remember, 1:1 is not a viable option, it never should be equal, either one should be higher to truely introduce balance)
Spy 4:1
And then we would have a PPU that is support 4:1 (remember, not a single class should have 0 in either offence or defence) and this would bring the variable of 5 in to the picture, with buffs, a Tank could raise from 1:4 to 2:5 and Spy could raise equally to 5:2. This leaves the Pe in a position where it would become a 7, which would introduce imbalance to the mix, BUT, now we need to take in consideration the existence of support class. Would it tip the balance?
Let's take a closer look.
Even with a ratio of 4:3/3:4 PE would only have as much offence/defence as the non buffed single person, but the higher other number of either one, and equal to both classes when buffed, which would bring balance to the class-monk fights. Surely, a class-monk would win a single person in any fight, but well, that is the idea of support.
"But mister, wouldn't this still imbalance the monk, with buffed he is 5:2." Well yes it would, but the current way of having a class with no offence at all, wouldn't fly when the class is support only, he has to have a means to defend himself (his high defence alone would work) but also we should remember that the poor bastard needs a means to fight the environment, he can't be dependant of the other classes, just like the other classes shouldn't be dependant on him either.
This concludes our tutorial to RPG. I'm not saying that my formula is flawless, but balancewise it is better than the current travesty. I'm not necessarily offering you a solution, I'm just pointing out the fact.
Maybe make antibuff much more accessible? This would naturally be a pvp-only solution (huge plus) and could possibly be quite easy to implement.
No, kk tried that already and we don't want another spirit SH fix.
As for the argument, nerfing PPUs would kill PvM. I'll say it again, the high level dungeons, namely Mc5, Cerese Labs, etc. Were boosted so they would do more damage because of the ppu. ReaKKtor can rebalance mobs aswell as fixing the ppus.
scarshapedstar
13-12-05, 10:37
I didn't say spirit SH, I said reduce the mana cost of antibuff spells. Bit of a difference IMO in that antibuff doesn't kill anyone on its own.
RogerRamjet
13-12-05, 11:57
I didn't say spirit SH, I said reduce the mana cost of antibuff spells. Bit of a difference IMO in that antibuff doesn't kill anyone on its own.
Not on its own, but it sure helps :)
Dribble Joy
13-12-05, 13:28
As far as I have seen in game, all the suggestions you are proposing would DESTROY hunting. Completely. Forget what it would do to PvP, hunting and leveling would be near impossible in high level areas. The whole idea of a PPU on a hunting team is to increase the rate of leveling, not say "Hey, that guy is a PPU, try to find a DMG dealer for the last team spot we all have our TL3's..."
Mob hp/dmg can be reduced, it was in the past increased significantly because of the emergance of PPUs.
Again, there should be no requirement for any specific class in PvP or PvM, a team should do as well with 6 spies as with 5 apus and a PPU.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.