View Full Version : Bigass rant: KK is close to making NC the game lots of people loved again...
Vampire222
04-12-05, 15:52
With the release of evolution 2.1 neocron came quite close to what it used to be for many many many people, only a few problems need fixing BEFORE the trial period is over and people WILL leave the game again (and loads of them), if reakktor hasn't fixed the following things: (in order of pissing most people off atm)
1. Insane reload times: let em stay, but also give people the oppurtunity like we had in 2.0 to switch back and forth to the item for fast reload!
2. Faction switch bull... I actually had a gm mail me that the old way of switching factions fast, being killing npc's was actually exploiting! Cause of that being fixed, people who have ever killed a npc/player of a hostile faction should've been so smart to realise it'd screw up their chances of EVER being in a city/anticity faction again. Anyone ever heard of people not being able to look into the future (except Ms. Cleo maybee), and not wanting to spend 50 years waiting for their symph to rise to 8, then do loads and loads of missions?
Longer term (after 14 day trial fixes):
3. RETARDED underground genreps at ops, who is responsible for this idiotic implementation? I want to slap them (and lots of others with me)! The whole point of op wars is people who defend the op being stuck in it to defend it till the last man dies, not for them to wank about in the ug and genrep out once the op is lost! Reakktor, ask anyone who has been at one of the hour long Soliko battles what this has done to op wars, please!
4. Crahn epic: Gaya warbot: a friend of me told me today, after we both tried and died, thanks to falling into water with 5 million copbots in it! and not being able to either heal or climb out, and he tried again later on, to get to the legendary gaya tacholytium warbot in gaya mine sector 2. When he reached the place where it supposed to be, the warbot that thanks to some "event" its spawn had been removed, was not there!He was replaced with even more cop- and stormbots! Do not, i repeat NOT, sacrefice basic game elements like parts of someones epic run, for temporary gameplay elements like events!
5. Monk Balancing: In long term monks need to be balanced, i'm not gonna give my vision on this as theres loads and loads of ideas about it floating around already, suggest kk employs a fetish member to think of a viable solution!
6. Being able to close genreps Please implement a system where a hacker with 120 hack or so can hack a citycom, and then in a menu can choose a genrep in the game world he wants to hack, if that succeeds, make it possible to open that genrep for all for like 5 minutes, offcourse give the owning clan a warning that their genrep has been hacked!
7. Belts, the ones you drop when you die!: One more unacceptable thing is: If you manage to die, in for example regants legacy, and your belt jumps into a pile of boxes, you will not be able to retrieve it! Fix this up by giving the player a button to open belts belonging to him in a lets say 2 metre range, would give both gm's a break from going and trying to help people, and people being really pissed about their belt with their best spell being somewhere unreachable.
Please employees of reakktor, i beg you, change these things, a lot of people will really be thankfull for it, and isn't it the general idea to keep people playing neocron after the 14 days? :angel:
Yeah, that pretty much sums up the bad points well. If those were fixed, I'm pretty sure people would remain in the game after the 14 day trial.
(all except that fetish idea, that's just horrible :p)
Also it wouldn't be too bad to get rid of the fourth hacknet layer for OP fights. That sucked since it was implemented.
Yeah KK ur so close to finding the sweet spot for the game we can smell it, be wise listen to us but don't listen to us when we say dumbass things
Vampire222
04-12-05, 16:17
Yeah, that pretty much sums up the bad points well. If those were fixed, I'm pretty sure people would remain in the game after the 14 day trial.
(all except that fetish idea, that's just horrible :p)
Also it wouldn't be too bad to get rid of the fourth hacknet layer for OP fights. That sucked since it was implemented.
Ye forgot that one, noone has a dedicated hacknet hacker, and maybee how about removing 1 regular layer for it...
Dribble Joy
04-12-05, 16:19
suggest kk employs a fetish member to think of a viable solution!
*spurts tea all over comp*
I'd rather they just fix the stuff that's been broken for ever. You know, the lip and torso bugs, HackNet, vehicles in water thing, the more than a couple people in a vehicle that zones bug, etc et al infinitum. Neocron 2's potential is immense but the back of the camel the game rides on is about to break because new stuff keeps getting piled on while the old stuff is ignored and never fixed and seemingly never will due to the utter snails pace stuff is released at.
I'm not trying to be a Negative Nancy here on the forum but it's frustrating to see paying customers having to put up with the same broken stuff month after month after month after month with no dialog or official word from ReaKKtor on when this stuff will ever be fixed, if ever. Don't they have a roadmap of the future? Don't they have some sort of milestone even if it's 'Yeah, we'll get that vehicles in water bug fixed hopefully by the end of Q1 2006'. It really makes me wonder what their programmer(s?) is actually doing when he's working, because without trying to be insulting here, we're not really seeing any real results from him on a regular basis.
*spurts tea all over comp*hah when I read that I was thinking of suggesting you or FN instead =]
Remove foreign SD and (all) para, simple.
*****
... that won't fix anything Kierz. Keep thinking though.
Dribble Joy
04-12-05, 16:33
Removeng foreign S/D won't solve the PPU problem, it would only balance the combat classes (assuming there is a non-ppu solo balance allready).
Hell-demon
04-12-05, 16:34
Fix the PE lip bug!
Hey I'm a dedicated hacknet hacker!.. well was.. :(
Great info though, really liked the genrep idea (hack 120).
Vampire222
04-12-05, 16:36
Hey I'm a dedicated hacknet hacker!.. well was.. :(
Great info though, really liked the genrep idea (hack 120).
Would also make hacking a viable tradeskill: letting people pay to hack genreps for them (to lvling spots like crp for example)
Would also make hacking a viable tradeskill: letting people pay to hack genreps for them (to lvling spots like crp for example)
wow, never thought of that, that's actually pretty damn good :D
5. Monk Balancing: In long term monks need to be balanced, i'm not gonna give my vision on this as theres loads and loads of ideas about it floating around already, suggest kk employs a fetish member to think of a viable solution!
agree with all but monks in my opinion are not imba, maybe hybrids but not ppus or apus, pes and spys still own the game in 1 on 1 apart from maybe hybrids but fortunatly hybrids are not very useful at op wars so there arnt that many of em.
Tanks are probably the class that actually needs a boost, they got the weps that are hardest to aim and the worst defenses cos they cant shelter themselfs without gimpage.
Asurmen Spec Op
04-12-05, 16:46
*spurts tea all over comp*
DJ wants me working for KK :p
agree with all but monks in my opinion are not imba, maybe hybrids but not ppus or apus, pes and spys still own the game in 1 on 1 apart from maybe hybrids but fortunatly hybrids are not very useful at op wars so there arnt that many of em.
Tanks are probably the class that actually needs a boost, they got the weps that are hardest to aim and the worst defenses cos they cant shelter themselfs without gimpage.
Everyone check his sig :lol:
-=Steve Sparkz 74/64 (ppu)=-
-=WargoleM 62/62 (hc tank)=-
Sorry mate, no dice on that very very skewed perspective of yours :p
Dargeshaad
04-12-05, 16:51
Everyone check his sig :lol:
Sorry mate, no dice on that very very skewed perspective of yours :p
Haha I was just about to post the exact same thing :lol:
Btw, I couldn't agree more on the points you made vamp...though I don't think the GRs should stay open for so long after it has been hacked...more like 30secs. Ensures people don't just hack on one char and relogs to other and 30secs is more than plenty to click the Generep and choose destination ;)
Dribble Joy
04-12-05, 16:55
Take the tl10 heal and DB away from PEs and they become much more balanced with the rest of the classes. Of course before the 124 skill changes, a judge PE with lowtech resists got pretty much low tech offence, unlike now, which is why low tech PEs 'need' DB and the high techers do way too much dmg.
Unify the heal rates of all heals, give DB to PPUs, amke foreign cast sheilds add %hp, reroll the skill changes so that lvl 3 combat buffs are usefull and the solo classes are more balanced, and you get a much better team pvp scene where ppus are usefull but not all powerful.
Anyway, check my sig for a more detailed explanation.
First of all, well said vamp, every single point is a valid one and well in order. The monks balancing issue isnt one that can be resolved by the end of the trial period, and in all hoesty, the minute they nerf monks, some other class will be superior in some way. Its the way MMO's work im afriad, there will always be class balancing issues.
Tanks are probably the class that actually needs a boost, they got the weps that are hardest to aim and the worst defenses cos they cant shelter themselfs without gimpage.
I agree there, so much stuff has been coming in for all the other class simply because the tank has been a good well rounded class. However, as focus has gone on other class, it feels like theyve drop down the food chain once again. The slow aiming/movement is bad enough along with the new reload times, wargolem is right, defences seem to have been neglected for a while now.
The only area in which tanks are still very effective is op wars when supported by a ppu.
Asurmen Spec Op
04-12-05, 17:04
I still cant see how people can say with a striaght face that
op fighting is the best part of the game.
op fighting is the part of the game with the least skill and most numbers.
op fighting is the part of the game with the least skill and most numbers.
Dont know what your on there mate, but I want some of it.
You cant go out and assemble the worlds best 11 football players and stick them in a team and just expect them to work. Same applies with NC. Theres a big difference between individual skill and TEAM-WORK!
All the best clans have been able to function as a unit
Asurmen Spec Op
04-12-05, 17:09
Dont know what your on there mate, but I want some of it.
You cant go out and assemble the worlds best 11 football players and stick them in a team and just expect them to work. Same applies with NC. Theres a big difference between individual skill and TEAM-WORK!
All the best clans have been able to function as a unit
Theres very little team work in todays opfights.
infact, I doubt theres more then "buff me" "para him I cant hit him" "dmg boost so I do more dmg "
and then they run around like chickens with their heads cut off and use numbers to win
Dribble Joy
04-12-05, 17:21
Remove the layers of protection and requirement for real skill that PPUs curenty provide and you will see more skill. Problem is that people don't want it to be hard, or have to try to do something. Regardless, even if things are fixed, more people allways means an advantage, so zerging will allways happen.
4. Crahn epic: Gaya warbot: a friend of me told me today, after we both tried and died, thanks to falling into water with 5 million copbots in it! and not being able to either heal or climb out, and he tried again later on, to get to the legendary gaya tacholytium warbot in gaya mine sector 2. When he reached the place where it supposed to be, the warbot that thanks to some "event" its spawn had been removed, was not there!He was replaced with even more cop- and stormbots! Do not, i repeat NOT, sacrefice basic game elements like parts of someones epic run, for temporary gameplay elements like events!
i did the crahn epic completely on a pure apu solo with rank 38/29 with every drug ingame and temporary gimp implants to reach /45 for the final mission..
i did everything myself.. no heals, no medikits, just psi boosters and normal energy halo..
its not impossible.. its not even hard... you just have to think and use tactics.
and spells can be drawn and cast under water if you do it right, but its a bit tricky some places.
Well at least the current mess up with not being able to change factions has been partially fixed.
http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?p=1911567#post1911567
Asurmen Spec Op
04-12-05, 18:01
i did the crahn epic completely on a pure apu solo with rank 38/29 with every drug ingame and temporary gimp implants to reach /45 for the final mission..
i did everything myself.. no heals, no medikits, just psi boosters and normal energy halo..
its not impossible.. its not even hard... you just have to think and use tactics.
and spells can be drawn and cast under water if you do it right, but its a bit tricky some places.
that gaya mine is now packed for the WoC missions, I bet they moved the NPC some where else ( AUDIBLE FUCKING GASP!)
Shenyu Reza
04-12-05, 18:03
and the netcode
RogerRamjet
04-12-05, 18:53
Reload times need to me returned to how they were previously, unless you want to see the gradual redundancy of the ballistic classes.
5 stars very nice post.
KK plz fix the reload thing and faction before 14 days trial ends or most of the ppl will leave (not me prolly) and i want a high pop
Bugs Gunny
04-12-05, 19:54
-Fix reload times.
-remove tl10 heal and stealth from pes.
-remove all holy ppu spells
-reinstate apu-ppu malus (makes hybrids impossible or at least normal)
-ballance all mobs 100/100 and above
-fix mc5
That would solve most of the problems.
I think this last patch proves at least one thing with certainty.
A public test server (even if it's application only) is desperately needed. You can't overlook as grand as errors as the faction switching and reloading times that underbalance the game even more than it was. The fixes should have come years ago for some of these things.
Essentially, you need a QA department for the game. Dedicated people who will test the thing out before it is released to the general public. Untested features that end up going in the wrong way always displease and anger people who are (not with the trial now, but in normal conditions) paying for a decent service.
Dribble Joy
04-12-05, 20:06
-Fix reload times.
-remove tl10 heal and stealth from pes.
-remove all holy ppu spells
-reinstate apu-ppu malus (makes hybrids impossible or at least normal)
-ballance all mobs 100/100 and above
-fix mc5
That would solve most of the problems.
Stealth isn't a problem if it acted as the espionage tool it's supposed to be, not the invisible LE tool it is.
Not touching the blessed heals only keeps blessed hybrids as powerfull as they are now, bringing all heals down to a tl 3 heal rate would keep them balanced and there probably wouldn't be any need for an apu-ppu malus. Whack DB up to tl 90 or so would keep hybs and PEs better balanced solo and retain more use for the PPUs.
agreed with all.. some of the things in EVO have made me want to leave more rather then return, but they are easily fixed..
one other thing; soullight. i think they are going in the right direction with the changes but I think its a bit overboard. And as a citymerc I can no longer kill anyone except in the battlezone sectors... I really like DJ's idea of ditching SL and using all symp (example ive heard, if you kill a TG and get red SL why would CA hate you for that too?).
and uh, if you feeling like posting "i think PPUs are fine" just don't, ok ? we all know they aren't.
-remove tl10 heal and stealth from pes.
Why are we suddenly trying to nerf PEs? For the most part we're the ones attempting to reload while some hybrid monk is both kicking our ass and full healing at the same time. Not to mention the fact that we've historically been the most useless class at OP wars, something I would like to see change.
O_o
Dargeshaad
04-12-05, 21:58
Why are we suddenly trying to nerf PEs? For the most part we're the ones attempting to reload while some hybrid monk is both kicking our ass and full healing at the same time. Not to mention the fact that we've historically been the most useless class at OP wars, something I would like to see change.
O_o
Try to see it in the overall picture instead of taking your "don't nerf my class" glasses on mkay?
Bugs Gunny
04-12-05, 22:25
I tried killing a ppu today, he was standing still, didn't take the db off.
I got two consecutive nibheals on him, and the fucking reload made me cry.....
After the second nibheal he put up a heal sct and the game was over.
Seriously, i have no idea which carebears without a clue about the game have been "testing" your changes on the internal testserver, but as far as i'm concerned, you'll see me again when you guys decide to fix this game.
Try to see it in the overall picture instead of taking your "don't nerf my class" glasses on mkay?
You don't know me very well.
RogerRamjet
04-12-05, 23:56
-reinstate apu-ppu malus (makes hybrids impossible or at least normal)
Hybrids can be dealt with without re-instating the malus. It killed the class in NC1 virtually (yes, its still a class, "overpowered" or otherwise), and there needs
to be a more constructive thought process and change than just an APU/PPU malus.
Make the team spells actually for teams.
Lower or remove holy buffs either heal or shelter (not too bothered about the rest), so there's no more 'god-mode activated'.
And I'm not exactly sure why the malus was removed again, but reinstate it tbh.
Toight loik a toiger.
Hybrids can be dealt with without re-instating the malus. It killed the class in NC1 virtually (yes, its still a class, "overpowered" or otherwise), and there needs
to be a more constructive thought process and change than just an APU/PPU malus.
Why not just change the spells so the hybrids can't rack up the points in both apu and ppu to reach the overpowered stage?
RogerRamjet
05-12-05, 00:47
Why not just change the spells so the hybrids can't rack up the points in both apu and ppu to reach the overpowered stage?
Hmm, youve got to change things so the class doesnt become redundant though, and of course it would effect lvling APUs and PPUs.
So a small boost here, a big nerf there - the class needs to be completely re-positioned anyway considering the amount of flaws it's in currently.
Wouldn't a whole balance rearrangment be best?
Dribble Joy
05-12-05, 01:57
Re-organisation at the base level is what needed, all of the solutions either fail to see the real problem, or only offer solutions to the symptoms, not the causes.
Classic example being the spirit mods, and the anti buff spells.
1) reduce PPU power in order to reduce their number in PvP... when 50% of the fighters are PPU protecting and rezing each other, it is boring and fights lasts hours.
2) Go back to the NC1 faction relations and give more importance to faction conflicts instead of DOY vs NC conflict
3) Implement ceres tools and weapons and make ceres levels useful
4) increase RP and events IG
5) implement NPC for players trade
The way I see PPU's is that they should be support characters period. Giving a marginal chance for the team to survive, but if the team is shit, it should fall as easily as without a PPU. The Godmode of today is just simply wrong, and was not in place when I started playing. It has been wrong ever since they were boosted.
It really should be balanced at the core.
i thought they shouldnt even shelter/deflect people and just heal and use buff 3's which would be required to full cap high end rares... or at least would give a good benefit to keep a ppu around.
Plus they rez, can free up some points to imp... go with the whole field medic role
As it is Holy heal is annoying as are the buffs... and adding more anti buff features would allow more than 1 class to attempt to take it down.
Dribble Joy
05-12-05, 02:49
The way I see PPU's is that they should be support characters period. Giving a marginal chance for the team to survive, but if the team is shit, it should fall as easily as without a PPU. The Godmode of today is just simply wrong, and was not in place when I started playing. It has been wrong ever since they were boosted.
It really should be balanced at the core.
Which is what I've been after for a long time.
As for WoC stuff, as I have said before, I really want skills/abilities, not item reqs.
What could be done with the current weapons is this:
Make them different versions of current weapons.
Example. The new barretta, it's a low tech single shot pistol. So make it tl 88, dex 88 and all the other stats as a wyatt, but add the WoC req. Then it's not affecting balance, but it is a status symbol.
Same with PA4. Reduce the PAs to lvl 130 (not PEPA), then add in a series of other PA4s, with an additional WOC req that look different.
As it is Holy heal is annoying as are the buffs... and adding more anti buff features would allow more than 1 class to attempt to take it down.
Again, we need to fix it at the source, not cure the symptoms.
Exactly so.
We were promised that WoC won't affect end-gameplay, but as it is now, it most certainly will.
way to fix reload time/item switching. they should make its o you can move to another item but the weapon wont get the ammo int eh gun till the end of the animation. so you have to wait for the reload to get ammo but you can switch inbetween so you can stealth/heal whatever
i dont care what they do, ppus are the number one thing that need to be done first. i cant even play this game anymore its ridiculous. today there was 4 PPU at MB on one side !!! i wish i was kidding.. you cant leave pvp ruined and except people to stay and play a pvp game.
i know myself and a many others were just holding out for "evo" and its hear and I now have an even greater desire to leave. ppus fixed = more people return then for some new foliage and uglier weapons with higher polys.
if they just went down this list (the first post) and did those things... I could really see it attracting people back for reasons other then "its free".
Yea KK alot of people came back and you have a few days now to increase your playerbase by 100 if not 200%... use it!
I agree with most of the points by vamp. Most important reloading,ugs and nub buffs (how could you forget :P)
MasterChief
05-12-05, 06:24
-Fix reload times.
-remove tl10 heal and stealth from pes.
-remove all holy ppu spells
-reinstate apu-ppu malus (makes hybrids impossible or at least normal)
-ballance all mobs 100/100 and above
-fix mc5
That would solve most of the problems.
how would removing holy modules from PPU's solve anything?
all that would mean is i could die faster while not being able to attack back, which is fucking dumb.
the best PPU balancing ideas ive ever heard actually came from KK in that thread about PPU's. leaving them alone pretty much but limiting what they can do to other runners, I.E instead of both a shelter and deflector only one would work at a time, and nerfing the heals on other runners would work pretty good too.
5) implement NPC for players trade
THIS ONE IS A MUST!!!
One of the things that annoys me everytime I try to "come back" is being about 15-30 mins for a poker.
It would also establish a pricing base, if the NPC repairs/poke/research/construct for a X price and X quality, then you could offer a better price starting from that point.
Is not logic that megacorps and smugglers offer such services for a fee?
Vampire222
05-12-05, 11:22
nub buffs (how could you forget :P)
Wrong! :D I didn't forget about those, but i reckon they would cease to exist after a proper monk balance, and offcourse after that it could be brought ingame that low level buffs (normal shelter), get overwritten if a higher lvl buff is cast upon the target (holy shelter).
RogerRamjet
05-12-05, 11:41
So a small boost here, a big nerf there - the class needs to be completely re-positioned anyway considering the amount of flaws it's in currently.
Wouldn't a whole balance rearrangment be best?
Perhaps a solution could be for instance, a 150 APU/PPU req on the crahn glove.
I know its high, but it would certainly help (sorry PEs).
3. RETARDED underground genreps at ops, who is responsible for this idiotic implementation? I want to slap them (and lots of others with me)! The whole point of op wars is people who defend the op being stuck in it to defend it till the last man dies, not for them to wank about in the ug and genrep out once the op is lost! Reakktor, ask anyone who has been at one of the hour long Soliko battles what this has done to op wars, please!
Can't agree fully with you on that one. Underground genreps have increased the defense of op wars greatly. Before that if you guarded the genrep then most of the time no one could come to defend at all.
However, I take the point that maybe the downstairs genreps should be one way ie you can come in but not genrep out from them.
Vampire222
05-12-05, 11:53
Can't agree fully with you on that one. Underground genreps have increased the defense of op wars greatly. Before that if you guarded the genrep then most of the time no one could come to defend at all.
However, I take the point that maybe the downstairs genreps should be one way ie you can come in but not genrep out from them.
Ye sure, no problem if people genrep into the op tru the underground, but not genrep out again, and i also hate how its being used as a safe place for the defending party, hell i'd rather see the ug either being opened to everyone, and the genrep removed (offcourse genrepping in would be ending up in the ug for the owning clan), than having it like it is now.
Its used more as a safe haven these days because there are no Gat 3 turrets to protect runners upstairs. But turrets were a whole other headache before...
I think the Op wars are quite good at the moment, the only problem is the dominance of monks, and thats not to do with the ops themsevles. However, after 3 years of op fighting I would have liked to see at least 1 new op for us to fight over in all this time. I mean its supposed to be the endgame for clans and yet its been largely left alone in all this time,
No real thought has been given to things like the layout of the ops, ie changing easily defendable / attackable ops to get better fights. I am personally disappointed that we don't see more vehicles in op wars, I think KK should lower the reqs on the bombers and other flying vehicles so we see more of them. And while they're at it, make an op that can only be reached by flying.
There are so many possibilities that could be explored with Op wars, its a shame it hasn't been prioritised. After all, a new mission / dungeon is over the first time you complete it, but an outpost lasts forever...
Dribble Joy
05-12-05, 13:03
how would removing holy modules from PPU's solve anything?
You must be aware of the effects a holy heal has on other players.
Holy S/D isn't as much a problem, blanket removing holy spells is a bit daft.
Remember that if the PPUs really want to remain teh uber no dying peoples, slef cast holy spells could be made to remain as they are. The effects on other people however needs to change.
KK's suggestions were pretty much put down by the community (even if they did give me an idea for my current version of a PPU fix), there were loop holes and it wouldn't solve the main problem - heals.
darkservent
05-12-05, 13:29
However, I take the point that maybe the downstairs genreps should be one way ie you can come in but not genrep out from them.
Taking this idea further what you could do is leave the genrep open both ways until the offending party has hacked the first layer at which point the genrep in the UG will be locked out from allowing ppl a way out.
IMO the whole problem with genreps in UG is that clans would gather in the UG to fight but where things go wrong is when the offending party camp round the UG barreling and AOEing. This doesnt really make it an OP war when you think about it. TBH the whole issue around OPwaring is messed up. The original concept around the balance of power from NC1 days would have made the game more interesting but KK seemed to ignore the original objectives and have probably doomed the game forever. Its just a matter of time when we will see this wrong doing of theirs.
PPU's in PvP are fine in my opinion,
People just can't or just bold face refuse to use Anti buffs properly. I do agree there is not enough diversity to actually kill a PPU, I say bring back spirit mods and maybe introduce some kind of debuff a tank can use aswell. (I particularly like adding reference to WoW, where a warrior has the ability to nerf a healers heal by 50% - I would say this is a nice idea and adding some "diversity" in a PPU's game.)
Yes, I do agree one person alone should not be able to kill a PPU on his own, simply because the PPU has given up the ability to kill anyone (putting reference again to WoW, a "holy priest" for example has one of the lowest dps in the game, and there isn't any bonus for giving up your dps - you just get owned by high dps class, because a) it takes too long to kill them. b) you can't outheal them.) - would be seriously annoying if you can't even defend yourself because you have no attacks, but you die anyway because your shelters are plain shit.
where things go wrong is when the offending party camp round the UG barreling and AOEing. This doesnt really make it an OP war when you think about it. TBH the whole issue around OPwaring is messed up.
I prefered trying to find a open gr to run to my op to fighting half dead before i have even synced...
Half the people zone whore because by the time you sync, your pretty much already dead.... at least when we used to have open zones (none of this gr lockdown crap) you could just send a person to a op first wait for the "Its clear" and gr in and start running to the op.
By the time your there your ready and buffed and actually usually had a good old ruck around the op rather than fighting at the ug part.
I should stress that I think Op wars in their present state do work well, you just need to wait past the first op being taken so that the opposition has time to group upstairs for the next attack.
Good op wars happen when the opposition has time to gather, sometimes you see clans don't barrel and let the opposition come up.
And the very best op wars I've ever been in have been when two forces have met between ops somewhere in the wastelands, now that is exciting stuff!
darkservent
05-12-05, 14:52
Good op wars happen when the opposition has time to gather, sometimes you see clans don't barrel and let the opposition come up.
The opposition shouldnt have to let them come up. If we start resorting to being nice or allowing tactics just to have a decent op war then that will just make things slightly more predictable. Im not saying anything to cheating as these tactics I would be against, its more to do with the camping and AOEing.
Before it was decent when we had to group further away and then travel to the OP and destroy the oppositon. I like the way it was before 1 clan on one side and the other on the other side and both meet to have all out war.
What I will say that tactics like AOEing will eventually force alot of clans to regroup elsewhere and go back the the old ways. When this does happen then the rules for UG GRs will be useless.
Yes, I do agree one person alone should not be able to kill a PPU on his own, simply because the PPU has given up the ability to kill anyone (putting reference again to WoW, a "holy priest" for example has one of the lowest dps in the game, and there isn't any bonus for giving up your dps - you just get owned by high dps class, because a) it takes too long to kill them. b) you can't outheal them.) - would be seriously annoying if you can't even defend yourself because you have no attacks, but you die anyway because your shelters are plain shit.
At the end of the day its exactly that. What Im about to say may be stating the blatantly obvious, but it seems some people really do need to get this system back into their heads.
How does a tank defend himself in combat? - he kicks the crap out of whoever is trying to kick the crap out of him. The only way for him to survive is to win. There really isnt any kind of running involved. As said above, PPU's have sacrificed their ability to kick the crap out of people and in return their only way to defend themselves is superior defensive capabilities. Why should they be nerfed any more? Take away the strength of their heal and PPU's will become obsolite. To be perfectly honest, PPU's make the game interesting as they are. Without them OP fights would be damn boring. Without them you wont get the 1 hour OP wars that live in legend anymore.
darkservent
05-12-05, 15:22
To be perfectly honest, PPU's make the game interesting as they are. Without them OP fights would be damn boring. Without them you wont get the 1 hour OP wars that live in legend anymore.
Definatly true, I still remember the old fights with NDA at malstrond that lasted so long, and that was when the ressurection wasnt nerfed.
Asurmen Spec Op
05-12-05, 15:22
At the end of the day its exactly that. What Im about to say may be stating the blatantly obvious, but it seems some people really do need to get this system back into their heads.
How does a tank defend himself in combat? - he kicks the crap out of whoever is trying to kick the crap out of him. The only way for him to survive is to win. There really isnt any kind of running involved. As said above, PPU's have sacrificed their ability to kick the crap out of people and in return their only way to defend themselves is superior defensive capabilities. Why should they be nerfed any more? Take away the strength of their heal and PPU's will become obsolite. To be perfectly honest, PPU's make the game interesting as they are. Without them OP fights would be damn boring. Without them you wont get the 1 hour OP wars that live in legend anymore.
What the fuck is you with you people and your OBSESSION that you need monks to fucking take an op!?
Oh god!? you mean you wont just go "heal" and be safe!?
SWEET CHRIST!
WERE FUCKED!
thats the dumbest fucking reason I've ever heard.
What the fuck is you with you people and your OBSESSION that you need monks to fucking take an op!?
Oh god!? you mean you wont just go "heal" and be safe!?
SWEET CHRIST!
WERE FUCKED!
thats the dumbest fucking reason I've ever heard.
And breathe :p
Vampire222
05-12-05, 15:34
What the fuck is you with you people and your OBSESSION that you need monks to fucking take an op!?
Oh god!? you mean you wont just go "heal" and be safe!?
SWEET CHRIST!
WERE FUCKED!
thats the dumbest fucking reason I've ever heard.
It's not about needing monks, you don't need weed either, but it makes things much looooooooooonger... :cool:
Op wars owned as they were back in the days, monks were also overpowered and blabla, noone really cared as everyone was really busy having fun..
Asurmen Spec Op
05-12-05, 15:35
And breathe :p
I had to flame some one before I left for the day :)
anyone noticed how the reload times correspond to the time it takes to play the reload animation is first person? i'm sure you would all love to volunteer to make new ones for each weapon...
RogerRamjet
05-12-05, 18:03
Ive found the gun wont fire until about 2 seconds have passed since the end of the reload animation.
What the fuck is you with you people and your OBSESSION that you need monks to fucking take an op!?
Oh god!? you mean you wont just go "heal" and be safe!?
SWEET CHRIST!
WERE FUCKED!
thats the dumbest fucking reason I've ever heard.
Point out to me in my post where I said that monks are needed to take an op. Im looking... looking... looking... still looking... looking... no I didnt.
So as he said, breathe, and take into context. Monks make the game interesting. Without them, OP fights would be cack to be honest. Sure, you might be able to get 10-15 mins out of one without a PPU, and it might be, fun, but it would get boring quickly. Very quickly, and theres no two ways about that, no matter how much you want to rant.
Dade Murphey
05-12-05, 19:04
I like all the ideas vampire...think they would do good things for the game
Without them, OP fights would be cack to be honest. Sure, you might be able to get 10-15 mins out of one without a PPU, and it might be, fun, but it would get boring quickly. Very quickly, and theres no two ways about that, no matter how much you want to rant.
i dont recall many op fighters around retail start claiming it was boring or to short infact i remember alot of battles going well on into the night and the fact there was like 600 odd players?.
People didnt a give a shit about death, hell people even stood still to slam there cs in there inv because it used to drop, i remember charging in with MY defense only, MY cannon skill only, not some suped up super tank with holy shields etc.
1 hour fights are boring, i used to fuckin hate when ppus longed out the fight and started ressing, your dead, accept your dead, gr out, get poked (which would be easy if people needed pokes much more) and gr back to regroup and go again.
Plaza used to be rammed with traders and pokers but since stuff dosent drop in op wars they got less or moved to spare slots, pokers were needed less and now we see people shouting for ages to get a poke, i remember dying gring to plaza and have like 5 pokers rushing to poke me.
PPus give up combat.... and then fuck it up even more for others, its fucked when your having a nice little battle 5 on 5 then ppu shows up, coz its pointless, as long as 1 ppu is on the scene you will need another.
When people ask for a op war today its how many ppus? apu?
Back in the day it would be op war? fuckin hell yeah.... and everyone was there.
I'd rather have 5 mins of pure hardcore adrenalin blastin action knowing whoever loses is going to the plaza or doy and they lost because I was better and not who had the best ppu than 1 hour of chasin some soddin holy buffed apu around a op.
Digital-Talios
05-12-05, 19:55
Great points hope it doesnt fall on def ears
Mystic-Crusader
05-12-05, 19:58
for number one. Keep it i like it. Make a change to monks so they fire slower e.g can't take booster after boosters, a time limited say 10-20 secs between taking boosters - if u miss cast a HAB or rezz ur fucked, ppus can't heal too many ppl etc.
Worse thing about the reload is not the time it takes but the fact u can do shit all apart from run around while u are. Have an option where u can switch to heal/stealth if need be BUT it stops the reload proccess.
i dont recall many op fighters around retail start claiming it was boring or to short infact i remember alot of battles going well on into the night and the fact there was like 600 odd players?.
People didnt a give a shit about death, hell people even stood still to slam there cs in there inv because it used to drop, i remember charging in with MY defense only, MY cannon skill only, not some suped up super tank with holy shields etc.
1 hour fights are boring, i used to fuckin hate when ppus longed out the fight and started ressing, your dead, accept your dead, gr out, get poked (which would be easy if people needed pokes much more) and gr back to regroup and go again.
Plaza used to be rammed with traders and pokers but since stuff dosent drop in op wars they got less or moved to spare slots, pokers were needed less and now we see people shouting for ages to get a poke, i remember dying gring to plaza and have like 5 pokers rushing to poke me.
PPus give up combat.... and then fuck it up even more for others, its fucked when your having a nice little battle 5 on 5 then ppu shows up, coz its pointless, as long as 1 ppu is on the scene you will need another.
When people ask for a op war today its how many ppus? apu?
Back in the day it would be op war? fuckin hell yeah.... and everyone was there.
I'd rather have 5 mins of pure hardcore adrenalin blastin action knowing whoever loses is going to the plaza or doy and they lost because I was better and not who had the best ppu than 1 hour of chasin some soddin holy buffed apu around a op.
Aye. That's it.
They really need to remove UG's, op fights are just zoneline fights now with lots of people. I think on a 4 slot server its more of a problem as well when people can just keep loggin on alts after they died.
Oh and fuck the hacknet layer off as well.
Dribble Joy
05-12-05, 21:04
@ LTA, exactly.
The only reason I decided against my previous belief that all spells above tl 40 should be removed is because I felt it would reduce NC too much towards CS and make NC less of a MMORPG, plus all the stuff about retaining the PPU as a class to choose.
They can still remain, but need a serious rethink. (see sig)
Vampire222
05-12-05, 22:39
one more addition:
The revival of Holy Cath Sanctum: Reinstate this thing, in al its multicoloured glory, but as antipara wide range high frequency ticking sanctum, this would make paraspam in op wars useless, and would effectively cause ppu's only to use para when someone runs.
aye cath sanctum would be welcomed back
Cath Sanctum should be WoC.
Para should be Milky Renned :p
Yea Cath sanctum as a WoC is a really good idea. No one can say it is a way to bring the PPU to more power, and effectively, it will make Para in OP war a waste of mana. Though, PPU may not die anymore when they are alone but who cares, seriously!
i'm sure threads like this would go more noticed if people didn't post so many crappy threads :p
Asurmen Spec Op
05-12-05, 23:49
Point out to me in my post where I said that monks are needed to take an op. Im looking... looking... looking... still looking... looking... no I didnt.
So as he said, breathe, and take into context. Monks make the game interesting. Without them, OP fights would be cack to be honest. Sure, you might be able to get 10-15 mins out of one without a PPU, and it might be, fun, but it would get boring quickly. Very quickly, and theres no two ways about that, no matter how much you want to rant.
How would it be less fun then with PPUs?
I dont see anything "fun" about 12monks and 1 spy/tank/pe attack an op.
acually I was wrong my bad.
remove the 1 other class
i dont recall many op fighters around retail start claiming it was boring or to short infact i remember alot of battles going well on into the night and the fact there was like 600 odd players?.
..........
I'd rather have 5 mins of pure hardcore adrenalin blastin action knowing whoever loses is going to the plaza or doy and they lost because I was better and not who had the best ppu than 1 hour of chasin some soddin holy buffed apu around a op.Almost making me cry that I missed those days, such a shame pvp isn't skill dependant anymore.
Good point about pokers always being around when there's always people needing pokes, imo people should tip them more too to make it worth their time (I generally tip 5k each for bones and 10k each for the rest). But anyway that's off topic =]
Bugs Gunny
06-12-05, 02:19
@LTA
You just gave me an erection, and only assman has been known to do that before.....
@LTA
You just gave me an erection, and only assman has been known to do that before.....
lol
Honoured :cool:
Thats just how i remember nc being when i had the most fun :p
When your skills mattered, when a tank could go against a tank on a op field one on one and cs the shizzle out of each other.
Fair does hybs were over strong and people would abuse them now days but back then no one cared enough to over worry people still op wared.
I know our clan had 1/2 pure ppus and they werent making the fight any different, they were just providing heals where they could which was enough for us defending the door to survive a bit longer male'in people and doom beamering them.
Remember actually having to defend the entrance building up to that final zerg where you storm head to head, enemy from either gate cs, judge, painy, hls flying of everywhere, people on hills, etc etc just pure action packed fun.
While i dont wish to see some things back the way they were i dont mind others, if storebrough high tl weps could be close to rares then that give resser/csters more trade and more people would feel to op war as they wouldnt wait for rares.
and my best memory was how
"PB20 Particle Beam Drone" in local could make several runners of a op team wet themselves and run because no shelter that drone was evil lol
Asurmen Spec Op
06-12-05, 03:35
@LTA
You just gave me an erection, and only assman has been known to do that before.....
Youre not getting any tonight, or tomarrow.
The GR hacking Idea is brillent. Makes it worth while getting hack on it's on...
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