View Full Version : This whole reloading issue...
I've been hashing this whole change back and forth in my mind... is it meant to be this way? Is it a bug? An intentional change?
At first I thought it was a bug and brushed it off. It'll get fixed eventually or something like that. But then a few other thoughts started to creep in...
Taking monks out of the equation, how cool would it be to have a duel where both people had to reload and take the realistic amount of time to do it? Anyone ever see (I think it was) The Art of War with Wesley Snipes? There's a scene where two guys are dueling in a sick gun fight and they both run out of ammo - they are back to back, reloading... and continue on. That would now be possible in NC - a 5 second reload time could mean a heal for the other guy, extending PvP. Those seconds could be used for tactical advantage or to make a break for it... it's actually much more realistic.
After that thought, I actually LIKE the reloading changes... but then you bring back the problem element... Monks. If an APU runs out of boosters in a fight, he either hasn't spec'd his belt very well or he need to work on his aiming (not counting larger scale OP battles, that is).
So if the forced-reloading time is to be workable, the Monks really need a change as well... but I'm not sure what. Some have mentioned Drug Flash on booster usage - I think that's a bit much. Perhaps a drawn out "Injection" process? On booster usage, play some creepy injection sound and then, based on the booster (lvl 1 @ 2 secs, lvl 2 @ 4 sec, lvl 3 @ 6 secs), it will kick in after the counted time goes by. This would add strategy to using Booster 1s over Booster 3s in certain cases... and timing would be a bit more crucial.
All ideas aside however, I'm curious as to what KK has to say about the changes? Is it just a bug? If so, PLEASE tell me so I can stop wasting brain power on this whole thing :p
Richard Angelus
02-12-05, 09:54
carnage said something about this topic in the german forum....
the clip size of cannons will be increased
+ they will discuss alternatives in their team to find a good solution
Assimilator
02-12-05, 09:57
*nods* 5 stars.
The injection counter time seems like a good idea.
Bugs Gunny
02-12-05, 10:12
Soon you'll see nothing but monks.......
Its a poor design to implement which doesnt really fix anything and just makes things annoying for the user. Also its relativly easy but annoying to "exploit" to get around it (assuming its in by design).
As for the idea itself, it is interesting but Im not sure how well it'd be in the long term.
just have it back to the way it was tbh
It's still very early to judge. Reloading time make things a lot more realistic, but stresses gameplay. Monks will definitelly have an advantage (yet another one). Workaround: cut the time of reloading process in half the process is nice and the reloading sound(which also indicates that you can shoot again) is also cool but reduce time for playability. Monks need a total rework
Scanner Darkly
02-12-05, 10:49
I noticed this as well and went through a similar thought process to most of you. Obviously KK might have to come back to us on this, but it never _felt_ like a bug. I also LIKE IT, and actually the monk solution, as long as the time was adjusted fairly after some thorough testing, I think could work out really well.
Bugs, if all things stay the same, all that needs to change is one's style of play (slightly) to accomodate this "forced" reloading.
The only thing that I am disappointed about in game, was all the people whining within an hour of 2.1 going live. Trade/help were innundated by naysayers and idiots who started with their usual: "yeah well it's KK, what do you expect?!?!?" and such idiocy.
Shame on you people - crawl back in your hole.
I like the reloading thing aswell. Gotta get used to it, but it's cool.
And i love that monk idea, giving them a timer or something for the psi boosters to kick in would bring them in line again. And this timer should include NO CASTING while it's running. :)
The whole thing pisses me off, if this was ment to be then atleast let me stop reloading and switch to a heal if I need. I do not at all like "opps, out of ammo. here comes 10 secs that I cant do anything at all =/" :mad:
It's still very early to judge. Reloading time make things a lot more realistic, but stresses gameplay.
If you want realism, then your playing the wrong game.
I don't like the new change, intentional or not, because the weapons were
balanced with the old reload time, and they then change to this and everything
is out of balance. If they want to change this, then rebalance the weapons
aswell becaue right now pistols & monks rule.
All this does to me is to take away the fast paced action when fighting, now you
can chat a bit while reloading.
Scanner Darkly
02-12-05, 10:57
The whole thing pisses me off, if this was ment to be then atleast let me stop reloading and switch to a heal if I need. I do not at all like "opps, out of ammo. here comes 10 secs that I cant do anything at all =/" :mad:
This solution would be a happy middle ground, I guess - using CS style rules. I just think the super fast reloading we've had up until now is just pants. Everyone would reload heal and start shooting all in the space of a second. A little bit more thought amidst all the adrenalin is no bad thing, maybe.
Dr J Zoidberg
02-12-05, 12:05
But it's the differce between wether you get that little bit more kill in or heal a bit more then kill...
-Z
Actually its quite easy to balance things and bring them back where they were, and yet having this 10secs or maybe some less reloading time: Just increase overall daage per shot to comply for the 5-10s of reloading. then everything will get back and all will stay happy.
Also, please, remove the priorities from the reloading routine, so it can be interrupted with whatever you wanna do (heal shelter whatever) with the penalty of restarting it again...
good post.
And with the Monk thing, maybe it should just take more time to cast a spell.
I like the long reload time, well, the realistic time reload
Bugs Gunny
02-12-05, 12:36
Increasing dammage per shot would unballance things in favor of the reticle users.
Some guns would do almost double dammage, meaning that it is a lot easier to kill someone in the first clip and not even needing the reload.
Things were ballanced as they were for reload on reticle users.
We can all now say Welcome To monkOcron and MEAN it . I mean before it was a kinda fotm class to play , now its gonna seem like Play a Monk or die tbh.
I like the reload thing it adds a new element to fights, will he run out of ammo? :lol:
But in light on the monk class they need a nerf in their use of ammo "boosters" as it is a bit unbalanced tbh.
Matthew.v.smith
02-12-05, 12:51
I like the Reloading time, it's something that you have to get used to...yes, but come on, the old reloading was stupid, putting your gun away mid reload and healing instantly was just not right, I think the whole worry about Monks and their non-reload is a bit redundant, I didnt even notice the Reloading while fighting some Monks in MB, if it's so much of a problem then Heal and THEN reload, it takes time but it's a tactic that people can easily get used to, and hey, if your fighting someone who's similar to you, at least you can revel in the fact that if they fire off a whole clip at you and miss several shots, you have plenty of time to pick away at them as they reload and attempt to heal, again it's another tactic, and I like it.
well why not have it so that when a monk uses the booster (infact for all boosters) there is an animation where the character pulls out a booster from a belt location then moves the booster syringe to his neck or arm and injects is... same time as a reload, problem sorted.
I do wonder how they can activate the booster without any physical contact or anything, and yet chugg them like the token freshman at a keg party.
Increasing dammage per shot would unballance things in favor of the reticle users.
Some guns would do almost double dammage, meaning that it is a lot easier to kill someone in the first clip and not even needing the reload.
Things were ballanced as they were for reload on reticle users.
yes, but not by much. you took as an example the slasher. this pistol wastes ammo very fast and therefore has a disadvantage over say, a BoH. same goes for he speedgat as well and the liberator. Another approach would be to increase clipsizes to lessen the effects of reloading itself.
All in all kk has 3 parameters to play with to reballance things: damage per bullet - clipsize - reloading time and I dont know if i miss anything else... hmm maybe returning things as they were before is a more viable option afterall :(
Dribble Joy
02-12-05, 13:15
Be a lot easier to put back the ability to lower your weapon during relaoding.
//edit - And you can still swap heal, you just have to be insanely fast.
If you want realism, then your playing the wrong game.
I don't like the new change, intentional or not, because the weapons were
balanced with the old reload time, and they then change to this and everything
is out of balance. If they want to change this, then rebalance the weapons
aswell becaue right now pistols & monks rule.
All this does to me is to take away the fast paced action when fighting, now you
can chat a bit while reloading.
you play this game and you play nonmonk chars because you want realism retron and so do I. I agree that this change touches gameplay, the biggest sellingpoint in nc, but lets hope kk will react fast
Bugs Gunny
02-12-05, 13:16
I don't realy see what reason they had to change something that WAS ballance and working and now create a whole new set of problems with ballancing.
I'm absolutely convinced that this whole thing is going to be DIRUS'S worst nightmare if it stays.
But it's the differce between wether you get that little bit more kill in or heal a bit more then kill...
I agree. I said something about that too. People complain about PE's and Spies constantly stealth whoring, this helps towards nerfing it. Although if you're in trouble don't reload your weapon until you've healed or whatever.
I'm not saying I like the change myself, because as Gunnar said, it makes people shag monks even more, and it does bring more realism to the game. You can't just reload then switch items immediately and hope the ammo clip has been replaced.
Edit: It looks like Doom HAS been rubbing off on KK.
I agree. I said something about that too. People complain about PE's and Spies constantly stealth whoring, this helps towards nerfing it. Although if you're in trouble don't reload your weapon until you've healed or whatever.
If you want to stop stealthwhoring then change stealth, omg shock horror,
there is no need to change how weapons work for every non monk class if
you want to balance stealth.
--
Also, about increasing the damage / hit, it's not a good idea, that makes every
hit alot more crucial, this will not do much, especially with people clipping all over
the place and your shots not counting...
I don't realy see what reason they had to change something that WAS ballance and working and now create a whole new set of problems with ballancing.
I'm absolutely convinced that this whole thing is going to be DIRUS'S worst nightmare if it stays.
I agree, there are other more important issues. Even though its cool, implementing it now is bad timing. We need to remove it asap, making things as they were prior Evo, regarding reload times + ability to leave from reload sequences and while saying this, being blocked into reload, pistoleros have the advantage over cannons + rifles because they dont get speed penalties, therefore they become less vulnerable in monkataks, or they gain an advanatage for no reason at all
Edit: I want to be able to stand down my weapon and do whatever i wanna do: heal, stealth run whatever...
Dribble Joy
02-12-05, 13:41
The reload anims are cool and I appriciate the efffort, but it would be so much better if the forcing was removed. Other wise we would have to faff about with balancing the dmg.
Don't touch reloading animation because its really uber (btw take a look at reloading a HL/FL in 1st person... uber), but leave reloading time as it was before, shooting a shot or healing or stealthing interrupts the reloading animation and nothing else. Probem solved. Beisides, when in battle i dont think any of us might watch reloading the HL and pressing those buttons :lol:
Scaramanga
02-12-05, 19:07
Leave reload time, nerf monks.
I'll make me a melee tank :)
paolo escobar
02-12-05, 19:19
The reload thing is ok i guess but i cant change to another weapon/spell/item for the duration of the reload. this make non-monks very disadvantaged.
An hyb can cast an attack spell and immediatly change to heal or S/D.
The current situation is bollox. Address monks or the reload times of balistic weapons
After playing last night I like the new reload times. Its hard to get used to, it takes forever to switch to a heal if you've just started a reload, but I like it. It made my hunting and PvP experiences more intense.
It does totally unbalance things when you throw monks and melee into the mix. I actually suggest you leave all the reloads as they are now and give a damage boose to ballistics to help balance the new damage per minute ratings of each weapon class.
or you could change THE RATE at which a booster fills up a PSI pool. instead of all the stupid things people are sigesting. because as i hope you all know a psi booster doesnt refill a psi pool instantly.....
as far as melee goes. perhaps its time to change the stam booster to act more like a psi booster just make it fill up their bar faster....
It does totally unbalance things when you throw monks and melee into the mix.
Well on the topic of melee - I actually think that's fine. You're sacrificing range for a constant attack as long as your stamina is up. Fair trade-off methinks.
Like I posted in the other thread:
By me:
Alternately you decrease monk damage over time and kill two bugs with one stone - ie monks cease to have the higher random cap for the spells and only average and lower are in use, while the rest of their "constant" damage spells are reduced a touch.
The rest of the classes live longer in a skirmish against the "all powerful attack" monks, while the monks don't suffer all too much from the rest of the classes with the continous fire now being partially deterred.
Or something along those lines
Like I posted in the other thread:
I concur, nerf the monks. =) Sorry cloaks, its been building for over 4 years now its time you got reduced.
Matthew.v.smith
02-12-05, 21:00
I concur, nerf the monks. =) Sorry cloaks, its been building for over 4 years now its time you got reduced.
Havent seen you for a while Sync :P
I don't mind the reload time if you would just nerf the fucking ridiculous APU's and PPU's and/or hybrids. You can't even think about going toe to toe with then anymore, nor you barely could before.
As far as melee is concerned: Hardly anyone plays melee and it's only more incentive for a few more players to pick up the borring combat (imo) :)
Actually its quite easy to balance things and bring them back where they were, and yet having this 10secs or maybe some less reloading time: Just increase overall daage per shot to comply for the 5-10s of reloading. then everything will get back and all will stay happy.
Also, please, remove the priorities from the reloading routine, so it can be interrupted with whatever you wanna do (heal shelter whatever) with the penalty of restarting it again...
Good point, and when the netcode gets better (well, one can dream ;) ) this will even improve gameplay for gun users further:
Pop up, fire, duck behind cover for reloading - we could get a bit more of the action feeling in real shooters like Counterstrike :D.
Perhaps a drawn out "Injection" process? On booster usage, play some creepy injection sound and then, based on the booster (lvl 1 @ 2 secs, lvl 2 @ 4 sec, lvl 3 @ 6 secs), it will kick in after the counted time goes by. This would add strategy to using Booster 1s over Booster 3s in certain cases... and timing would be a bit more crucial.
while normally i respond to any calls of nerf to monks with the standard "its fine; learn to play", I agree with FN on this idea. I know that with the huge relaod time it hurts and i agree that something needs to be done. removing the psi boosters isnt an option as its a HUGE nerf (see my other post with math: http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?p=1910240&posted=1#post1910240).
but this activiation time would be more suitable as a "rebalancing" because it accurately addresses the issue to balance out the psi regen instead of just "OMGZ NERF MONKZ TO ROACHES! HRHRHR!".
I would say that the reload time balences spies, tanks and pes against each other BUT a monk vs any other class is at an advantage when all things are equal imo.
All i've seen talked about was APUs... what about PPUs? APUs normally have 7 or so Boosters in their quick belt... So yes I can see your suggestions working for APUs... But PPUs only have 1 to 2 boosters in their quickbelt which means they have to take a break a lot just to reload boosters.
Balance in a game is a very touchy thing these days, trust me... i'm creating a whole MMOrpg myself... and its a lot of thinking and work. But yea, you gotta think about every class and weapons so it can be balanced
-- System --
i like the booster time frame idea higher the booster more time it takes to jam it in and inject. the reload times are a nice ballance before you could start reload drop weapon heal and go back and the weapon would be reloaded while you spent your time using a heal... ive seen tanks use 3 cs's before beacuse you could just switch and shoot instantly and have the last one reloaded. eather nerf the monk dmg cap a bit or make it so they have some sort of "reload" time with the boosters. i would also like to see the exotic psi use come back as well but one can only dream.
So if the forced-reloading time is to be workable, the Monks really need a change as well... but I'm not sure what. Some have mentioned Drug Flash on booster usage - I think that's a bit much. Perhaps a drawn out "Injection" process? On booster usage, play some creepy injection sound and then, based on the booster (lvl 1 @ 2 secs, lvl 2 @ 4 sec, lvl 3 @ 6 secs), it will kick in after the counted time goes by. This would add strategy to using Booster 1s over Booster 3s in certain cases... and timing would be a bit more crucial.
Like this idea but why make the "injection" longer then the IRL time to reload.
Like in the other thread its only down to 5ish
So lvl 1 = 1.5 sec, lvl 2 = 2.5 and lvl 3 = 5 sec
Look on a "capped" monk that would be
lvl 1 = 20% psi pool
lvl 2 = 50% psi pool
lvl 3 = 100% psi pool
IF and only IF they took the old psi boosters back with that change I think it would be ok.
Instant full in 5 sec thats ALOT better then before and we dont really need to pop 6 of them on a duel..
Edit: And btw if this would get in make the psi boosters stack like ammo in the QB..... then it would not "nerf" the PPU and APUs could have more spells in their QB ^^
i agree monks should have reload time ith psi boosters wereby they actualy inject the booster into them selfs. same with stam boosters
I think the problem was that you could fast-reload your guns by hitting reload, switching to another item, then switching back. I found this out while in El Farid using an Atomsmelt.
If you could cancel your reloads, but make sure the ammo DOESN'T get into the gun, that would work out.
Why not nerf monks to where when they hit 0 they automatically reload a psi booster the same as any other gun would reload ammo.
Keep FN's reload time for psi boosters but get rid of psi booster 1's and 2's (just keep the 3's) and make boosters usable by hitting (R) or reload - not having them equiped in the quickbelt, but stacked in the inventory much like any other ammo would be.
-And yes FN I finally read your goddamn post :P
Think the simple answer is bring down the rate of fire on melee and monk's, in pvp the reload times are dealable, but in pvm the current reloadtimes are a little rediculous simply cus most mobs can reload faster than you or can hit constantly
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